Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Ignatieff on January 02, 2019, 05:22:51 PM
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Does anyone have any visual references for Mongolian infantry that would have fought with Ungern-Sterberg?
Any and all help gratefully received
Happy New Year!
Steve
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Does this mean you are starting to play test the next scenario book ;)
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Here's a couple of pictures that I know of.
If your off to York next month I'd be intrigued to know more.
Mark.
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Here's an earlier thread on the topic:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=113120.msg1416723#msg1416723 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=113120.msg1416723#msg1416723)
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Mongolians c 1924 - not the Barons's men but I wonder why nobody has not made one of these.
https://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.com/2012/04/mongolian-machine-gun-car.html
Click on the image to see details
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Mongolians c 1924 - not the Barons's men but I wonder why nobody has not made one of these.
https://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.com/2012/04/mongolian-machine-gun-car.html
Click on the image to see details
Is that an A Ford?
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Is that an A Ford?
Obviously can't be. Production of Model A started 1928
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Obviously can't be. Production of Model A started 1928
I'm wondering about that dating of that photo then, because that car looks much newer (and obviously it's far from new in the photo) than anything on offer during WWI.
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I'm wondering about that dating of that photo then, because that car looks much newer (and obviously it's far from new in the photo) than anything on offer during WWI.
I was considering that to. But on the other hand by when would a model A have reached Mongolia? Early 30's, probably.
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Nope my money was on a Dodge Brothers touring car. They'd been floating around in the area since 1920. In fact several American expeditions used them in Mongolia through the 20's.
I made one for a commission 16 months ago in 1/32.
Mark.
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Thanks chaps....that third pic from Tin Shed is particularly useful.
S
(P.S. Next supplement for StEA will be available sooner than you might think...we have one on The Mad Mullah campaigns all but ready. Doing the photography his weekend...)
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On these photos, the Soviet copy of the Ford A - GAZ-A. Began produced in the USSR in 1932.
(http://s018.radikal.ru/i525/1709/a9/54e4f19893f5.png)
Red Mongols Van Hure and their "red" instructors. 1921.
That's the theme on my forum on "white" in Mongolia: http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?tid=415&fid=29&block=10
And "red" in the same place: http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?tid=211&fid=12&block=0
There are some interesting photos.
And there are still very blurred photos with instructions on the uniforms of the Mongolian Red Army 1921-24
(http://b.radikal.ru/b42/1901/6a/1a9cfb30e648.jpg)
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On these photos, the Soviet copy of the Ford A - GAZ-A. Began produced in the USSR in 1932.
(http://s018.radikal.ru/i525/1709/a9/54e4f19893f5.png)
Red Mongols Van Hure and their "red" instructors. 1921.
That's the theme on my forum on "white" in Mongolia: http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?tid=415&fid=29&block=10
And "red" in the same place: http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/showthread.php?tid=211&fid=12&block=0
There are some interesting photos.
And there are still very blurred photos with instructions on the uniforms of the Mongolian Red Army 1921-24
(http://b.radikal.ru/b42/1901/6a/1a9cfb30e648.jpg)
You are a treasure trove, cuprum.
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Nope my money was on a Dodge Brothers touring car. They'd been floating around in the area since 1920. In fact several American expeditions used them in Mongolia through the 20's.
I made one for a commission 16 months ago in 1/32.
Mark.
Good to know. Do they exist in 1/48 to 56 or 28mm?
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Nope my money was on a Dodge Brothers touring car. They'd been floating around in the area since 1920. In fact several American expeditions used them in Mongolia through the 20's.
I made one for a commission 16 months ago in 1/32.
Mark.
In the early 30s, the explorer Sven Hedin rattled around Sinkiang in a fleet of Model As, donated by that deplorable old nazi fanboy Mr Ford himself.
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Mark's absolutely right - it's a Dodge Brothers touring car.
Look at the very unique clips on the wheel rim - they're present in the photo of the "Mongol Technical", just as they are in modern photos of restored ones (2nd picture is of a 1918 model, which is a style that went unchanged at Dodge from 1915 through to the early/mid 20's):
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f5rlrUzJUgM/T4WXz393A3I/AAAAAAAAC3s/orzy-rMoSGc/s1600/Mongolian-Machine-Gun-Car.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/89/19/498919009b1adca5f31cdb6b46363879.jpg)
Would love to find one like this in 1:60!
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I was going to suggest picking Michael's brains, ( However he's already beat me to it.) As I'd put money on a Siberian histroy buff having a better Idea of where to look.
I was quite taken with one of the images in his link.
The outfits are almost identical in his picture and the one I'd found. I even mused on the possibility of it being the same person at different points in time.( but I'm no anthropologist so it'd be a poor bet.)
As for the car it'd be a very easy build( :? oooh sounds a bit arrogant. Just ment I've already done one.)
I could knock one up in a day or so.
If you remind me after the beginning of February then I'll find the time.
Mark.
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Well, I agree - the wheels are not characteristic of the "Ford".
But this car is different from the photo you cited.
(http://c.radikal.ru/c16/1901/4b/5014e77b40e3.png)
(http://d.radikal.ru/d20/1901/64/d369540a66f8.png)
(http://c.radikal.ru/c31/1901/74/f5fa2b16504e.png)
By the way, there are identical wheels on a truck and a passenger car... Perhaps - this is some kind of improvisation.
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Nice to see much clearer photos.
Dodge partnered with General Motors by mid-WWI (which included Cadillac and Oldmobile), all of which used similar Dodge-type wheels and had very similar bodies and front ends. It's possible these are Cadillacs, as the US was supplied with thousands of nearly-identical Cadillacs and Dodges during WWI, and every last one of these were sold at scrap prices in France instead of returning to the US. But the two cars were nearly identical:
(https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2014/07/1918CadillacWWIvet_2500.jpg)
(https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2014/07/1918CadillacType57_01_2500.jpg)
It's good to remember that even though the cars were mass-produced, there would be minor differences in the body depending on the work and parts available to different coach-building shops.
In fact if you look at the spokes of the rear wheels on both the Mongol vehicles, they match the Cadillac even more than the Dodge, as they have a bulge and stud in the middle of the spokes.
So it is very possible that some number of cheap, war-worn ex-US Dodges or Cadillacs from WWI passed into Russian hands in 1918-20. In any case, the details are some small as to be mostly irrelevant to a military modeller.
Trucks and cars using the same wheels would have been common in early car-making, as most light trucks were just the cars, with the rear body swapped out for a truckbed (the Model T did the same). You don't see true separation between car and truck designs until the mid 20's.
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I heard from a specialist in Russian cars of the early 20th century that during the intervention period many American cars were supplied for Kolchak’s army. And he mentioned Cadillac among others. From there, they could easily get into Mongolia.
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You raise a good point Michael.
Theres a lot of available and plausible options.
Matts picture is of the earlier model.The styling and chassis length changed mid 1923 early 24. Which is when the Roy Chapman Andrews took them to Mongolia along with Fulton one ton trucks.
My logic pretty simple (may be completely wrong but it was plausible enough for me.)
I was sent the same image's. Which were helpful. I discounted the model A for the following reason . I didn't feel the radiator grill matched the Ford . The A as far as I knew (and could be bothered to look ) windscreen open from the bonnet height and in one piece. The door shape didn't seem to fit a ford as much a Dodge.
(Cadillac similar issues, bonnet has a slight slope. Its more rounded where the coach work meets the fire wall. The windscreen has a more rounded lower half)
But more importantly the image is supposed to predate the Ford A by several years .assuming it is dated correctly then it can't be a Ford.
My logic is a little more speculative at this point.
At the time Dodges had established reputations for reliability on expeditions both military and civillian ( Ford A being a lot more thirsty than the Dodge.)
Old Indiana Jones had already bombed through the area on a least two previous expeditions in Dodges . So their reputation was high .Plus they didn't bring the vehicles back on all the trips as it cost too much. They did bring replacement vehicles with them on following expeditions.Never mentioned where the others
had gone.Not unreasonable to assume they'd been commandeered from the depot.( gets a bit vague as its over a decade of expeditions and models/years of vehicles.)
All that fluff aside the Dodge worked well enough to base a model on.
The one thing that would help date the photographs is the motorcycle ;)
But I can't quite read the petrol tank. ::)
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The motorbike is very clearly an Indian (luckily, I can read the tank badge lol ), and thus American.
However that doesn't mean too much, as I remember an earlier thread here about Russian motorbike use during WWI. The Russian army apparently had a wide variety of different motorbikes, sourcing whatever they could from wherever they could.
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I heard from a specialist in Russian cars of the early 20th century that during the intervention period many American cars were supplied for Kolchak’s army. And he mentioned Cadillac among others. From there, they could easily get into Mongolia.
Yes, this sounds likeliest to me.
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It does seem the most logical source for the vehicles.
As I said its just a plausible fluff to Have commandeered vehicles. Given Just how may vehicle's were bombing around in the area.
I couldn't see any characteristics of a Cadillac of that period. The reason I modelled on the Dodge is because I see Dodge characteristics. So thats the hunch I played.
No reason if they are Dodges that they couldn't have come from the Russians(unless they didn't have any of course.)
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It does seem the most logical source for the vehicles.
As I said its just a plausible fluff to Have commandeered vehicles. Given Just how may vehicle's were bombing around in the area.
I couldn't see any characteristics of a Cadillac of that period. The reason I modelled on the Dodge is because I see Dodge characteristics. So thats the hunch I played.
No reason if they are Dodges that they couldn't have come from the Russians(unless they didn't have any of course.)
The Americans used (and sold off) both Cadillacs and Dodges when they left France, more than 20,000 vehicles in total. In fact, us military cars from WWI are vanishingly rare because not one was ever returned to the US.
So there would have been loads of old American cars floating around Europe in the immediate postwar. Which is probably where the cars given to Kolchak came from.
In any case, I think we've probably investigated this topic far more deeply than Ignatieff needed. lol
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FramFramson, "Indiana" motorcycles were widely distributed in Russia. I often see them mentioned in memoirs.
tin shed gamer, you do not need to worry. In the Far East, in Russia, in China, there were quite a lot of ports and wealthy citizens who could buy any car in private. Well, the fate of the car during the hostilities could develop the most freak.
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An article about a personal car Admiral Kolchak. It was the Cadillac-55-V-8 - a gift from the American government. For reading, I recommend using the Google translator.
http://turbonsk.ru/avtomobil-admirala-kolchaka-cadillac-55-v-8/
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I quite agree we've side tracked and slightly highjacked the thread.So to make amends I went trawling through Mongolian websites last night..
( note It's quite alarming what come up when you remove safe search lol )
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What’s the long gun being propped up ? Looks very vsf?
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What’s the long gun being propped up ? Looks very vsf?
Looks like a Lewis gun with an odd frontispiece.
Love the Mauser with the rare wooden holster/stock combo.
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Cool, very cool. By the way (not to re-hijack my own thread....) it would not be unusual for cars to have specially strengthened wheels fitted for work in inhospitable terrain.
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I did wonder about a lewis as you could imagine the magazine being sat on top.
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Looks like a Lewis gun with an odd frontispiece.
This "Lewis" is simply missing part №2
(http://c.radikal.ru/c26/1901/e5/8ca44e736365.jpg)
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Nope my money was on a Dodge Brothers touring car. They'd been floating around in the area since 1920. In fact several American expeditions used them in Mongolia through the 20's.
I made one for a commission 16 months ago in 1/32.
Mark.
Mark
1/32 - that's the scale I game in - I am intrigued. Could you tel me more please - any photos?
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Did Ungern-Sternberg actually have any Mongolian infantry? I wouldn't be surprised if all his Mongolians were mounted they're one of the world's great horse-loving warrior cultures. But if he did, would he have had the wherewithal to kit them out any differently to the mounted ones?
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He's not wrong you know. ;)
Just a mk1 with part of the cowel missing. I'm not sure if it's deliberately left off to reduce weight/length or just plain lost. I know I've seen lewis guns in the service of Chinese warlords with the same ' modification ' and also the stock missing/removed. Plus aircraft lewis guns complete with brass hand grip.
Mike
That's odd I was wondering if you were still active on the forum. Last night when I was trying to redeem myself for the sidetracking .
I came across your thread on a lecture on this subject (2016 I think.) Did you attend it ? As I was wondering if you'd any pictures yourself?
As for the one I made no can do . I don't own the IP.
But the fastest way for you to come up with something very similar would be to start with an Airfix Prince Henry and change the radiator .
You can PM me and pick my brain's on a more in-depth build.If your inclined to build one.
Mark.
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This "Lewis" is simply missing part №2
(http://c.radikal.ru/c26/1901/e5/8ca44e736365.jpg)
Oh, it wasn't a modification... they just took off (or lost) the barrel shroud. lol
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Did Ungern-Sternberg actually have any Mongolian infantry? I wouldn't be surprised if all his Mongolians were mounted they're one of the world's great horse-loving warrior cultures. But if he did, would he have had the wherewithal to kit them out any differently to the mounted ones?
there are references to Mongolian infantry, but I don't think he would have bothered kitting them out other than in their traditional costume. It was a short lived, resource-scarce affair after all.
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Out of curiosity Do you know If the Austin Armoured cars give to Mongolia by the Russians .Where Russian Austin rebuilds or the British Supplied Austins? As they tended to categorise all varriants as just Austin's.
Not quite sure exactly where this picture is but the background does have a nice idea for your table.
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This is a frame from the Russian feature film "Vepr" ("Wild Boar").
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/carter38/23679758/1638610/1638610_600.jpg)
Red Mongols received armored cars from the Red Army. But in what year and how much - I was not interested.
(http://d.radikal.ru/d34/1901/a1/84c5c3ca328c.png)
Armored cars and white armored trains got to the Japanese. Some of these armored trains later turned out to be from the Chinese. But on the armored vehicles of the Chinese I know nothing.
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lol thank you Michael.
The site wouldn't translate.(As I've mentioned before my Russian is far far worse than your English)
Makes total sense know.( lol couldn't see how it was a boar hunt ) It was the background that caught my eye.
I actually like it even more as a table top feature . Now I can see its a burnt out building with a statue in side. Definitely says BoB to me.
Do you think it's a film worth watching for a sense of colour for the period?
Or is it a little to far away from what's Ignatieff is looking for?
Your photograph is a great example of whats so vague about equipment catalogues for the region.
There's four different mk's / variants . They all just referenced as Austin's.
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This film is a second-rate mysticism about the transmigration of souls, secret laboratories for these purposes and similar nonsense. There is one episode with Ungern, as the memories of one of the heroes of the Civil War. I saw him for a long time and really do not remember. Now, looking at the photo, I see that the costume designer has familiarized himself with the "Kolchakia" site)))
Episode with the Baron - at the very beginning of the film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8VCBCVtF7U&index=1&list=PL9086hEqAZk3fXVTQnB58u5910A1cZ_WP
Among the armored cars - two "Austin", "Fiat - Izhora" and "Armstrong-Whitworth Fiat". The usual set of different types of armored vehicles for almost all sides of the Civil War.
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lol
Loosing the plot thinking faster than I type .it appears your English is better than Mine as well.
I know what they all are I've sculpted all of them. (Including the simplex ;) ).
I ment the Austins there's two different Austins.In the photographs .Plus the Austins rebuilt and reconfigured and re armoured in Russia.Even though they no longer look like Austin from England.
They all get referenced as Austins.So when I've only got a written reference to an Austin in a Russian source I do wonder which on is being referred to .Admittedly modern works are more specific. Accounts nearer the time are the issue especially when its me translating.
Thankfully I'll take your advice and avoid the film.
Is there anything you could recommend watching which gives a good idea of the colours preferred during the perod as the Mongolian uniforms were quite a surprise when seen in colour.
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The best source of information on the uniform of anti-Bolshevik formations in Eastern Russia is the Kolchakia site. Guys have been collecting this information for decades, in archives, in memoirs. And make excellent reconstruction.
Here's information on the Asian Cavalry Division Ungern:
http://www.kolchakiya.ru/uniformology/Ungern_div.htm
(http://www.kolchakiya.ru/uniformology/general_themes/Ungern20.jpg)
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Thanks so much for that link. What an incredible resource.
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I think the car with machine guns is a Fiat, probably mod.501. Ossendowski reported Ungern had a Fiat car red.
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The best source of information on the uniform of anti-Bolshevik formations in Eastern Russia is the Kolchakia site. Guys have been collecting this information for decades, in archives, in memoirs. And make excellent reconstruction.
Here's information on the Asian Cavalry Division Ungern:
http://www.kolchakiya.ru/uniformology/Ungern_div.htm
Amazing resource, thanks for sharing.