Lead Adventure Forum

Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:06:02 PM

Title: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:06:02 PM
Good evening to all,
12 years ago, I had a chance to talk with Chronofus and send me a copy of your Guide o warrior suit.
Today with the latest discoveries and the online posting of codice, I would like to share with you, and the work of Chronofus, my achievements, my questions, about these little know warriors.
For starters, the nucleus of the aztec army, the commoners:

With slig, with atl-atl, and for the most talented Maquahuitl
(http://)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:07:50 PM
Maquahuitl
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:13:16 PM
It's the same things for Pochtecas, but after:

First captive warrior, Pochtecas had the honor to carry a Feather suit and back banner (florentine codex):
Suit Feather (red or blue), first captive warrior?
Suit Feather (cicitlallo), two captiva warrior?
Eagle or Ocelotl (with banners)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:20:15 PM
Ocelotl carry a banner like  Cuextecatl Hat or Huaxtec hat, white stripped blue (yellow point in the white field.
For the shield, it'is an interpretation of the drawning (florentine codex), perhaps, in the withe field, it is missing, yellow point like the banner?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:23:02 PM
And it'is possible to see (Chronofus guide) a Grey Knigth, "Tequihua", for commoner, in jacket covered with a jaguar skin
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 16, 2019, 09:31:37 PM
Then 3 warriors in Feather suit, and "Temillotl" (hair in stone pillar)
Those are "Tequihua" Too? Or are "Pochtecas Tequihua"?

Are not noble, because don't wear sandal (the figurines yes, but that's no true)

On the botton of the drawing it'is possible to see a "Tequihua", with the same banner of Ocelotl warrior. For me , it's realy a "Pochteca Tequihua"

And has his side, there is a coyote warrior. For me, he carries a back banner, because are not noble, and Pochtecas, like Eagle and Ocelotl warrior, who carrie a banner, but not a fbundle Feather on the helmet.......only banner. It's my opinion.  And You?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: sundayhero on February 16, 2019, 09:54:21 PM
Really unusual, very interesting and well done !
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: twrchtrwyth on February 16, 2019, 11:27:56 PM
Nicely done, I really like the uniforms.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: El Grego on February 16, 2019, 11:34:52 PM
Outstanding!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: marianas_gamer on February 17, 2019, 12:27:09 AM
Great work and clearly researched :-* :-*
LB
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: FierceKitty on February 17, 2019, 01:17:53 AM
I spent soooo many years waiting for this army; and now I've got one the Spaniards keep clobbering it. :(
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Lowtardog on February 17, 2019, 12:47:24 PM
Very nicely done they look great. I had an Aztec army 10 or so years ago and it's a fascinating culture
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: ArisK on February 17, 2019, 03:16:35 PM
These are gorgeous!
It's hard work to try and decipher the visual information in the codices, I admire you for it.
Aris K.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on February 17, 2019, 03:55:29 PM
Top notch detail, great vibrant colours you've really brought them to life. Excellent!  8)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Nic on February 20, 2019, 01:47:28 AM
Very well done indeed, congratulations to you and Chronofus
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: von Lucky on February 20, 2019, 07:44:15 AM
Lovely colours on these.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 20, 2019, 07:55:03 PM
Thank you gentlemen,
But the purpose sought and above all to share with you my attempts to understand an army in how complex§
More pochtecas photos
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 20, 2019, 07:56:45 PM
more
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 20, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Here two Tlacochcalcatl:

The white, Codex Mendoza, with the explications of Chronofus

The Black, paint of Osprey. No trace in a codex but the banner does.
The Lienzo de Quauhquechollan shows us the banners of:
Papalotl, Xopolli, Quaxalotl, Momoyactli, Copilli, Xacalli, Patzactli, Bird ans others
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 20, 2019, 08:05:20 PM
the black suit of Tlacoccalcatl

Miniatures are Eureka Miniatures with green
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on February 21, 2019, 11:38:42 AM
Very nice.

Have you seen any of this guy's videos?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcD5nDnVkEs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcD5nDnVkEs)

He's done a few on Aztecs, all very interesting and well put together.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 21, 2019, 07:20:18 PM
Good evening Milphil,
Attractive but far too much error! Please, read the work of "Chronofus" or the book of Osprey collection "Army of the 16th century, armies of the Aztecs...........", and you will understand.
Nevertheless, I thank you for your help!
I will post as month go by, my work and explanations with

Thank's for all
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Nic on February 22, 2019, 01:23:47 AM
Great work on your on your scratch built back banners.
Nic
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on February 22, 2019, 12:03:58 PM
Good evening Milphil,
Attractive but far too much error! Please, read the work of "Chronofus" or the book of Osprey collection "Army of the 16th century, armies of the Aztecs...........", and you will understand.
Nevertheless, I thank you for your help!

If they look good, which they do, and you're having fun I don't think it matters.

I would read those but I'm working on Mayans...  :P
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 22, 2019, 07:21:20 PM
Mayan!!!!
Yes me too! But it's more difficult to work on the mayan army than an aztec army!
For 1480/1510 AC, for the moment I don't found any mayan codex.
I work with  Mayan Eureka Miniature..

And I work on Huaxtec army, but information are difficult too!

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on February 22, 2019, 07:51:37 PM
Well in one way it's difficult, but as there's no hard and fast reference its also easier. ;)

I have the Eureka sacrifice set, this Salute 2012 mini ( not my paint job);
(https://goodtheblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/salute2012.jpg)

and the Gringo40's - http://www.gringo40s.com/mayan.html -
(http://www.gringo40s.com/uploads/6/4/6/9/6469416/s402127532403641370_p110_i1_w409.jpeg)

which I really like, not least because they've definately got the Maya nose...
(http://www.gringo40s.com/uploads/6/4/6/9/6469416/s402127532403641370_p117_i1_w741.jpeg)

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: gringo on February 22, 2019, 09:47:23 PM
interesting thread :D
thanks for the thumbs up 6milphil! :)

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 23, 2019, 09:19:30 PM
Mayan postclassic
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 23, 2019, 09:23:00 PM
commoner and noble
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 23, 2019, 09:24:47 PM
Mayan mural painting, postclassic
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Goliad on February 23, 2019, 09:45:49 PM
A great post. I have been intrigued by Aztecs for a long time but usually end up confused about what is happening! I have read the Chronofus guide along with the Heath book a few others. I know if I 'm serious I should just dive into primary sources! Still I wonder if I could ask some questions about Aztecs to put me on the path to clarity ...

Commoners
Was there a commoner warrior caste? The sons of "Grey Knights" for example who followed their fathers in the profession. Would these commoner warriors have functioned like sergeants in a European medieval context, supporting the nobles of their particular ward? Or were all commoners just a general levy and some eventually randomly showed military skills and became more specialised?
So commoners could use Atl Atl, this was not a special weapon of the elite? Would they have used bows? Some things I have read suggest no Atl Atl, and just limited Aztec use of bows.

Potecha
So this class had their own rank progression and could wear feather suits? Were they part of the nobility? Most things I have read don't mention the Potecha in military context but usually say they were a special group of commoners and that only nobles could wear feather suits?

Nobles
Most of the information I read is on rank progression relates to the nobility. One recent study I saw suggested 1% of the population was noble while others indicate up to 20% If the latter figure then you could have a culture that allowed only "nobles" to wage war as the population was large and our Aztec armies could be made up of all those lovely feather suits. If the figure is 1% then should my army have a couple of guys in feather suits surrounded by commoners? I do see mention of sometimes only nobles being called up for war, which makes sense if the noble population was large.

Body Painting
Would the Aztecs have painted their bodies? All painted black? Some? None?

Warfare
Is there any idea of the extent to which Aztecs and their rivals engaged in wars of posts and skirmishes. I have seen mentions of "garrisons" which indicates some need to protect borders or engage in raids/counter raids. Or was warfare from flower wars to "hard" war pretty ritualised and formatted?

Interested to hear views. I might never collect Aztecs but these sort of questions keep vexing me!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on February 24, 2019, 11:59:08 AM
As I mentioned above this guy has some interesting videos, and this one may well answer some of those questions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcD5nDnVkEs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcD5nDnVkEs)

Mayan postclassic

Thanks for all the pictures, great stuff. I've been working on these:https://imgur.com/a/Y1mZ3gc (https://imgur.com/a/Y1mZ3gc)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 24, 2019, 07:50:13 PM
Good eveningGoliad,
If I opened this topic, it is precisely to have answers to these questions!

To begin, the word Aztec:
It describes all the tribe of central Mexico. As far as, I am concerned, for the moment, I am dedicated to the Mexicas.

Commoners:

the text speack of a stone rain, thrown simply with the hands, or with a sling, or arrows.
The Atl-Atl is used for hunting (ducks for example).
For the arc, the Mexicas, preferred hired mercenaries (otomis for example).

Grey knights, the texts do not mention feathers suits, for the Mexicas. Only skin of jaguars or chamois.
But in many codex , it is possible to see warriors accompanied by youngs porters . These warriors do not have of "Temilotl"(hair like Tequihua), or no trace of nobility.
Codex florentine, shown this warrior's kind with a feather outfit, half yellow and half blue!

In other codices, the same warriors wear colored outfits, but it is in feather or simply in coloured skin (red, blue, grey, yellow), and always no trace of Temilotl!

Pochtecas:
Study of the codex, clearly showns a feathered outfit (florentine codex)

Nobles:
I will lean for 20% of the population, because nobles have the right to many women. So many children of noble blood who in turn will do the same thing.

Body paint:
Are rare in the Mexicas. But on the contrary, they are numerous for the tlaxcaltec and otomi.

War:
The Mexicas are a warrior civilisation. Before the arrival of spanish, the Mexicas were invading the mayan territory.

If other people can answer us, please do not hesitate!!!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Goliad on February 25, 2019, 05:28:43 PM
Huron,

Thanks for the reply, your views certainly help inform my understanding! I must start reading codex seriously!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on February 26, 2019, 01:36:18 PM
A great post. I have been intrigued by Aztecs for a long time but usually end up confused about what is happening! I have read the Chronofus guide along with the Heath book a few others. I know if I 'm serious I should just dive into primary sources! Still I wonder if I could ask some questions about Aztecs to put me on the path to clarity ...

The rules changed over time, so comments are contextual on the era you're interested in. Answers relate to the late aztec period near the Spanish conquest, specifically centred around the tenochs and tlatelolcans. Go back even a half century and things are markedly different.

Quote
Commoners
Was there a commoner warrior caste? The sons of "Grey Knights" for example who followed their fathers in the profession. Would these commoner warriors have functioned like sergeants in a European medieval context, supporting the nobles of their particular ward? Or were all commoners just a general levy and some eventually randomly showed military skills and became more specialised?
So commoners could use Atl Atl, this was not a special weapon of the elite? Would they have used bows? Some things I have read suggest no Atl Atl, and just limited Aztec use of bows.

By the decree of Tlacaelel and the founding proper of Tenochtitlan, commoners were REMOVED from war within their tribal group, war becoming exclusively a noble endeavour. How far this extended into the Tlatelolcans is not clear, but appears to be the same. Whether this went further into the Texcocoans etc is less clear, but also probably the same at this late stage of the' empire.' However, during schooling any boys from non noble families that showed great aptitude were allowed to try the warrior lifestyle. If they proved skilled in war, managed 4 captives, they become lesser nobles. Never having the rights of full nobles, so they couldn't wear feather outfits etc, they had more rights than commoners. They became the 'grey knights' (probably a really bad translation of the actual name), but their sons became full nobles with all associated rights. Nothing is said of those who failed, probably they went back to farming or whatever their father's profession was. Nothing is also said of the captives non nobles took, as the captor's family usually ate the captive, but as they aren't nobles, and human flesh was forbidden, I assume they became tasty morsels for the ruling elite or calpulli elites instead. I assume they did get to keep the lock of hair of their captive as the nobles did.

Any weapon used by the aztecs was usable by anyone in war. This means nobles used bows, atl atl, javelins/darts, slings, rocks, magic puddings and anything else they were personally skilled at using. Codex images and textual evidence is explicit. How Hassig came up with some of his regrettable statements is an example of sloppy research becoming gospel in academic research.

Quote
Pochtecha
So this class had their own rank progression and could wear feather suits? Were they part of the nobility? Most things I have read don't mention the Potecha in military context but usually say they were a special group of commoners and that only nobles could wear feather suits?
They were a society aside from the rest, due to their travels and stranglehold on the import of luxury goods. They existed in their own clique above commoners, probably similar to regular nobles, but below the super nobles (ruling elite.) It would be interesting to know whether this became a tense relationship with the ruling elite or not by the end, as the relationship with calpullis and subject kingdoms had became. Their outfits are mentioned in the Primeros.

Quote
Nobles
Most of the information I read is on rank progression relates to the nobility. One recent study I saw suggested 1% of the population was noble while others indicate up to 20% If the latter figure then you could have a culture that allowed only "nobles" to wage war as the population was large and our Aztec armies could be made up of all those lovely feather suits. If the figure is 1% then should my army have a couple of guys in feather suits surrounded by commoners? I do see mention of sometimes only nobles being called up for war, which makes sense if the noble population was large.
There are nobles, nobles, and nobles. I lazily call them non warrior nobles, warrior nobles and super nobles (ruling caste nobles). Non warrior nobles had lots of restrictions such as no cotton, couldn't eat human flesh and a few other things such as roles and responsibilities and career paths. The outfits, roles, responsibilities and freedoms/taboos were slightly different between warrior nobles and super nobles. The question you really are alluding to is, if nobles generally were the warriors in an aztec army (rather than their victims, which is another story) what was their composition in suits, and styles. Remember that warriors and suits ranked in level from 0 to 7+ captives, and that for a warrior to achieve adulthood, he had to take 4 captives. He couldn't be married before then, so you can get an idea that captive taking was not uncommon. You also have to realise that mention is made of children and women counting as captives, so....having 4 isn't as difficult as initially expected) The question you are really then moving to is are the majority eagles and jaguars, and what might you think is the smaller proportion of 0-3 captive, and 5+ captives. Evidence from the Primeros also makes it clear that jaguars and eagles didn't just wear eagle and jaguar suits, but a wide variety of the suits you're expecting. The question remains unanswered as to when they wore what suits, as there is an example of one particular warrior wearing an eagle suit, a jaguar suit, and a suit made from parts of both. Suits may well be role based, or whim based on the day. I can't answer that from source evidence. Sitting beside all this is the priestly warriors. They also had a captive progression system very similar but slightly different at the top end to the noble warriors. How numerous were they, I don't recall enough evidence to even hint at it, but I would expect not significant in an army context.

Variety in your aztec army also comes from the subject kingdoms and their contingents who were constantly called upon to join in the army. Consider them like all the petty German contingents in a Napoleonic French army. Always there, very similar, but not exactly the same.

Quote
Body Painting
Would the Aztecs have painted their bodies? All painted black? Some? None?
Yes. Priestly warriors, all exposed flesh in black. Add blood to ears for effect, if you had mad painting skills.
Commoners, no, never until they achieve tequihua rank, and then...? No evidence either way, but I'd say yes.
Nobles, yes to the exposed body only. Evidence is limited, and Mendoza regrettably is a poorly explained document fraught with some discrepancy between an exact picture image, and pictures that tell a story without having to draw on words to help explain. People take these images literally, because that's how our modern society reads images these days. Take for example all the warriors in the warrior list having a temilotl hair style and shoes, from rank 1 to 4, even though textually from other sources we know they didn't get this till rank 4, and had other styles at 1, 2, and 3 captive and no shoes. Now look at all the sculpted figures of commoners wearing the temilotl style and shoes and wonder if these people really can keep their claim to be the most deeply researched range of aztecs in production. (I'm not looking at you, TAG)

The pictures tell us this is a tequihua (shoes and temilotl) at captives 1, 2, and 3 with his rank outfit. This throws into question whether ranks 1,2, and 3 had body paint despite what the image shows. However, the prior image in the warrior list shows a tequihua plus apprentice travelling off to war, both shown in full body paint. I lean to the yeah paint them all camp, but it's hard to paint well anyway, and I'd certainly not bother anyone who didn't body paint them. Facial painting patterns are known, but evidence is extremely limited. If you are excited enough to try, use the facial painting of Tezcatlipoca, and other gods. Contingents drawn from each calpulli could easily have the facial style of their respective calpulli god which would really set them all apart (aside from just having their calpulli banner on the unit leader). Otomi rank has at least one example of facial painting style, and the cauachic are often depicted with no face paint with the rest of the body in black. (edit: texts say one half of his head was painted blue, and the other half red, or yellow. While half and half makes us think left blue, right yellow, refer some images of say huitzilopochtli whose face is banded yellow and blue, or Tezcatlipoca with bands of black, blue and yellow) Leaders (and assumedly super nobles) also are usually shown with black body paint and unpainted faces. Whether this is artistic stylisation or simply that the pattern changed on needs and the face is just left bare, *shrug*.

Any captive sacrifice vignette should all be body painted depending on the god sacrificed to, the victims style based on the god. Plenty of great examples in the Primeros, etc

Quote
Warfare
Is there any idea of the extent to which Aztecs and their rivals engaged in wars of posts and skirmishes. I have seen mentions of "garrisons" which indicates some need to protect borders or engage in raids/counter raids. Or was warfare from flower wars to "hard" war pretty ritualised and formatted?
Sure is. Heaps. Flower wars were intended to be ritualised, and had specific fields of battle used each year as the meeting place. Monty 2 is famous for getting his butt kicked and trying to resort to cheating to win them. He still got trounced. Chalk one up to prophecy, or karma.

Hope that's vaguely useful without too much info for a brief overview. There are further nuances, but that should do for most regular gamers to push lead around.

Edit: added cuachiqueh face painting
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: zippyfusenet on February 27, 2019, 12:21:53 AM
Thanks for the thread, guys. I haven't had much to add, but your figure painting is excellent, Huron, and I've enjoyed all the knowledge that's been posted.

Since Mayas have come up, I'll post this pic of some terra cotta figures that are on display in the Dayton (Ohio, USA) Art Institute. Many items in the DAI Pre-Columbian Gallery come from private collections and were bought on the antiquities market, so unfortunately have no context, but these are evidently late Mayan.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on February 27, 2019, 12:05:09 PM
Excellent, perhaps it's time for a seperate Mayan thread?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Goliad on February 27, 2019, 05:37:30 PM
cdm, thanks for the excellent information - it really helps create a good idea of what a later Aztec force might look like (I think)! I'm picturing a few groups of Aztec warrior each about 50% 4 captive warrior and the rest a split of 0 - 3 and 5+ warriors with maybe a few commoners included in the ranks. Maybe a very small group of priests and/or additional 6+ warriors kept in reserve. There would maybe be an equal number of allied units to fill out the force, along with maybe a small group or two of missile armed commoners/others (would the porters have had such a battle role? - bring a sling and have a shot or two at the enemy to build experience?)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 03, 2019, 07:26:59 PM
Good evening everyone,
Here my first aztec warriors (8 years ago)
Warriors priests according to the codex Mendoza. Of course, there are mistakes

Novice warrior: face must be unpainted
Warrior with coton arnour, no wear sandals
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 03, 2019, 07:29:35 PM
Momoyactli warrior: Momoyactli too high banner (error wargamme)
It should be in the back (at kidney height). Look codex
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 03, 2019, 07:30:51 PM
others
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 03, 2019, 07:31:57 PM
And coyote priest warrior
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: FierceKitty on March 03, 2019, 11:25:29 PM
My Mexicans got thumped again yesterday. They're pretty, but, oh, stone age weapons against modern stuff...:(
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: FierceKitty on March 04, 2019, 09:45:27 AM
The wife was leading the Conquistadors, and is not letting me forget that she's won three in a row.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on March 04, 2019, 10:07:50 AM
I'd personally not be too concerned over Aztec toy soldier 'correctness,' except in academic conversation. Accurate, considered research on the military system just doesn't exist in any public way at the moment. My life doesn't have time to even put my basic scribblings online in a way someone might find it useful. Your figures look great, and deserve to get some table time.

I'd love to see some Mayan discussion, but I am very under qualified to participate. Certainly happy to learn insight from a serious researcher. I have a stack of Eureka figures waiting to be painted one day when I figure out what to do with them.

FierceKitty, seems like the rules are accurately reflecting history :)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on March 04, 2019, 05:42:58 PM
I have about 100 hours of Mayan documentaries and academic talks in a YT playlist if you're interested, very little on the military though.  ???
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 10, 2019, 07:48:19 PM
One captive warrior or the first rank on the noble novicespath to greatness
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 10, 2019, 07:53:37 PM
My first  "Eagle" Warrior, (not warrior with eagle outfit)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: von Lucky on March 10, 2019, 10:32:03 PM
This thread is tempting me to start a new army. Just have to work out scale/ruleset!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 11, 2019, 06:10:26 PM
Sorry about that, but I'can't help you, I don't play.

I try to put in the form of existing figurines works or codex ..... just simply (realy not simply)!!!!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: von Lucky on March 12, 2019, 09:30:06 AM
That's okay - will be either 15mm (ADLG or DBA or both) or 28mm (Tribal).

Or all of the above.  ::)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on March 12, 2019, 11:01:46 AM
Nice work again :) Is the crackling fire banner from the Outpost Wargames banner set? Back when I was still buying minis I intended to get their range as it had some great figures in it not made by anyone else.

I did miss mentioning to you the sandals. While generally we imagine the white/red as shown in most images, for super noble warriors they could be all red, or even partly metallic gold. Also of wolf, jagaur/ocelot, or rabbit fur, or embroidered in some pattern or other. My notes also have the tlatoani level with blue shoes, but I didn't note which source material that came from.

VL, I didn't find any rules I thought were nice either for large scale warfare, not that I tried exhaustively. Anything with a skirmish battle line with a hero attached should do. I think WAB is reasonably ok for doing a token job of it, keeping things in check to remove gaminess like unrealistic depth bonuses, and the tomfoolery of a unit of 1 captive, 2 captive etc warriors, or a sling unit vs a bow unit, vs a sword unit. I always thought something that tried to reproduce a mythic Irish/celtic battle line would do a reasonably good game, along with the use of informal groupings such that veterans and novices could be mixed (think converged Nap grenadier battalions vs unit with a grenadier company), and the use of some deception modes.

There are some rule sets around for small scale north American inter tribal indian fights, which I think should recreate small scale central American warfare just as well. That should give you the options for regular combat, counting coup (striping) and taking captives either in combat or in rout, and enough narrative options to give victory without winning a particular fight. i.e. provoking fights by attacking farmers, or merchants, with a threat of reinforcements giving a timed game for example.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: von Lucky on March 12, 2019, 12:19:20 PM
Thanks - that's why I'm leaning towards Tribal with its Honour mechanic. That, and I'm a Eureka fanboy, so their 28mm ranges are enticing.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 13, 2019, 09:17:37 PM
Yes, CDM, this is the crackling fire banner from Outpost wargames.
Not all banners exist, but they can be made in the same way as the aztecs (papier mâché, yes)!

But a series of figurine is missing, at the creators  of figurines :
Great warriors and nobles with an "ehuatl"..... it's hard to me , create this costume style!
If Eureka could create this costume style?!

I try to create different Patzactli, because for me , there are at least 3 possible versions;

That's all for the moment
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 17, 2019, 05:12:32 PM
Good evening,
This is one Otomi warrior of Tenochtitlan (codex Mendoza):
Xopolli banner
Rectangular blue labret
Style face painting
Style Hair
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 17, 2019, 05:18:13 PM
And this is an Otomi Warrior of Tlatelolco (codex Florentin)

This warrior is shonw with 2 different banners and one with cotton armour.
But, I don't have information for the colours of his outfit and banner!
Would have you informations or idea?

For me this suit is green. Look number of outfit in green in the codex Mendoza.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on March 18, 2019, 11:34:01 AM
Are you referring to Tzilacatzin from Book 12?

The original images for Book 12 are mostly only reproduced in black and white, though a couple are in colour. The rest of the books are fortunately reproduced in full colour. The text also says he wore disguises of varying kinds to try and be less conspicuous to untrained eyes (I'm not quite sure I buy that story angle, but that's what it says), and which the various images are showing. I'm not sure the back banner he is wearing is a Quaxalotl at all, but to my eye a Tlecocomoctli, further clued by the text also referring to the double eagle hair pendants, the third image in the series (and possibly the one you might think is a back banner) but appears to be a temilotl with 2 hanging eagle feather bundles) which all have the same religious connotations relating to captives and fire.

The figure you are referring to with the Quaxalotl isn't Tzilacatzin, and unless something outrageously taboo is going on, an ordinary otomi or cuauchiqueh could never wear such a banner. The figure is either the huehue tlacatecatl (I think Atlixcatzin was dead by the time of this image?, so that would make it ???), or the Tenoch installed Tlatelolcan military governor, the tlacatecatl Totozacatzin, or Temilotzin by this time?). If it's the huehue tlacatecatl, it'll be the red outfit shown in Mendoza of the 4 senior military lords.) Sorry I'm a bit vague on this, I haven't pieced which lord is alive in exactly which time period myself.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 18, 2019, 11:08:56 PM
Perhaps, but this hairstyle looks like a warriior Otomi (first warrior)?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 18, 2019, 11:19:55 PM
And the Otomi warrior, and his banners, Tlecocomoctli, but the form his different, like this;

What outfit the first warrior Otomi wears? Ehuatl?

It's possible for Tlacatecatl  with Quaxalotl banner, cut this hair short (Siege of Tenochtitlan). But long hair at the back, and short on the side.....
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 18, 2019, 11:21:59 PM
For the book, I have a very bad version. If you have a spanish version, I read and speak spanish!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Dr Mathias on March 18, 2019, 11:45:07 PM
Very cool thread. I've kicked around doing something Central/South America for a while.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on March 19, 2019, 02:14:30 PM
You're right, it's an Ytz Patzactli [white patzactli from heron feathers], refer the Primeros for the illustration being worn by an eagle warrior, who would also have to be from Tlatelolco, as patzactlis were a gift exclusively to the Tlatelolcan lords by the Pochteca. I've photographed the Florentine images for you to be clearer, the figure with striped face painting in all of them is the warrior Tzilacatzin. I have no idea of the significance of the net pattern face painting style aside from some educated guesses.

Refer to chapter 32 of Book 12 of the Florentine. This is excerpts of the D&A translation of the nahua covering the mentions of Tzilacatzin. The action takes place after the Tenoch common people had given up the war, and the nobility moved across into Tlatelolco. According to the Anales de Tlatelolco there is a whole story of the handing over of power from the Tenoch lords to Tlatelolca, commoners voting to end the war and leaving, plus internal Tenoch assassinations and other things we don't often hear about.

Anyway, chapter 32 is about 2 events, one being Alvarado entering Tlatelolco for the first time at Nonoalco and no one coming out to stop them, except Tzilacatzin. The plates for this are 131, 135, 136 and 137.

The second part is about the next day when the Spanish moved to a part of Nonoalco called Ayauhcaltitlan [the temple complex area near where the causeway enters Nonoalco, and which may be what we see burning in the back of plate 132. Without looking hard, I'd guess this site is now the Parroquia San Miguel Arcangel?], where they were faced by the two warriors Tzoyectzin and Temoctzin and the Spanish were driven back to their boats. The accompanying images are plates 132,133,134, 138 and 139.

in summary the outfits Tzilacatzin wore are described thus in Nahua to English: The text referring to plate 131 only mentions his name, that he has a shield and 3 large stones as weapons, nothing about his attire specifically. "But Tzilacatzin only disguised himself so that he would not be known [and specifically targeted by the Spanish]. At times he wore a back banner, he hung his lip pendants and each of his golden ear plugs, and he put on his necklace of white shells. Only his head went uncovered, where it was obvious he was an otomi rank warrior. [So if his hair says he is an otomi, and it's uncovered, he's not in disguise at all? Refer plate 135 for the corresponding image]. And sometimes he only wore his padded cotton armour with a white band around his head.[Refer plate 136] And sometimes he put on a feather headdress with a wig [the eagle pendants with temilotl, the pendants being a sign/marker of great bravery, so not much of a disguise really?] And with it he wore golden arm bands, and golden leather leg bands" [I read that as gold + leather leg bands] [Refer plate 137. Also note the weapon he is armed with in every image.]

Interestingly in the Anales de Tlatelolco, they mention this snippet during this general time period of the war:

Paragraph 325 - "Y los tenochca, quienes fueron jefes, se cortaron allá el cabello; y todos los jefes se cortaron el cabello y sólo el quáchic, el otómitl anduvieron con las cabezas cubiertas. No de dejaron ver durante todo el tiempo  que se hizo la guerra contra nosotros."

The second part of the chapter says this: "There were only two great warriors who didn't turn their faces away from the Spanish, who altogether despised them, and who did not value their own bodies. The name of the first warrior was Tzoyectzin. The name of the second one was Temocztin. And the third was the previously discussed Tzilacatzin."

Tzilacatzin appears in plate 132 on day 2 of the chapter, but then isn't drawn again. He is mentioned once more in a later chapter. Plate 155 has a figure which has the same face painting style, but he is not mentioned specifically in the context of this image.

The figure you are referring to in plate 139 is a tlacatecatl, armed with an iron sword. We also know from a later chapter that the Tlatelolcan tlacatecatl named Temilotzin was armed with an iron sword.

The Quaxalotl banner is a banner of the highest command. The Spanish know this. For a warrior to try and hide from being targeted, picking the banner of the top ranking leader is only going to increase you being targeted. Additionally, Sahagun makes it clear that otomi, cuauchiqueh and tlaotonxintli [I lean to the otomi and cuachiqueh are both ranks of tlaotonxintli, rather than it being a third type, but I have never resolved this word very well, D&A translate it directly as otomi which I am not in agreement with] do not have command roles, and that being excluded from command is part of the choice of progressing to an otomi, rather than the higher ranks of the eagles who do/may have command roles. Refer for example Sahagun book 6, and I have a vague recollection Duran says something also in the Book of the Gods. I believe there would also be deep cultural taboos for an otomi to wear this specific banner, but at this late stage of the war all sorts of social norms are collapsing, so why not this too I guess?

We know from elsewhere in the siege that warriors wore specific outfits for the connotation that outfit represented, and that these outfits were specifically god related. For example the owl outfit, I don't remember its name off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 19, 2019, 09:07:00 PM
Yes, I agree with you.

But, Itz Patzactli, I wouldn't have thought of it right away

Is a rather difficult banner to understand:

A shape as headgear
A shape as a banner, it's the banner that interests us here:

A dome like umbrella with a feather line, and, a large feather arch like the headdress of the north american indian sachem, at least that's I think.

I made a version with a cuachique. I hope you to present him soon

Thannk's for the image


Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on March 20, 2019, 10:09:09 AM
I agree, the patzactli is rather poorly described, the same word being used for the headdress version, and the back banner version.

The Tlecocomoctli I was thinking of is shown in the Lienzo in several plates, but the one that first sprang to my mind is the Ometoch Tlaviztli.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 20, 2019, 04:44:57 PM
For fun, 2 lords:
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 24, 2019, 08:46:18 PM
I meet people who thought the codex Mendoza, showed only warrior party uniforms. Thus I looked and found contrary:

Cuextecatl (codex Mendoza, the same in codex Moctezuma)! Only differences:
No rosette on the hat
No fringe on the shield

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 24, 2019, 08:52:12 PM
Other codex show:

Cuextecatl in green (with rosette on the hat and fringe on the shield

Cuextecatl in yellow (idem)

Cuextecatl in orange (codex Durand), no rosette on the hat, but two bars

Cuextecatl, in green, Cuextecatl in dark red,  (codex Durand)with two banners on the back, no rosette on the hat, but two bars.

Cuextecatl into two colours (Codex Moctrzuma), rigth in blue and left in red (normaly no rosette, and no fringe on the shield.

That's all for the moment
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on March 25, 2019, 01:29:56 AM
Refer also the Lienzo de Tlaxcalla images. I had to go back to some old notes from way too long ago to find what I was looking for.

Duran, Book 8:
The yellow Huaxtec pointed conical cap had a golden disk in the front of it and was girt with quetzal feathers. And the shirt was of yellow parrot feathers decorated with hawk scratches. Gold was his crescent shaped nose plate, gold were his ear pendants, with quetzal feather spindles.

The white Huaxtec pointed, conical cap had quetzal feathers bound at the base and a disk of gold at the front. Its spindles were of quetzal feathers and gold. Gold was his crescent shaped nose plate, and gold were his ear pendants.

The bi-coloured Huaxtec, the shirt was half blue and half yellow [I suspect as in left right not front back]. His conical pointed cap was also bi coloured - half blue and half yellow, and it had quetzal feathers girt at the base and a golden disk at the front. Gold was his crescent shaped nose plate, and gold were his ear pendants, and his spindles were of quetzal feathers.

The golden conical cap had quetzal feather tufts held in cups (or a cup)

The silver conical cap had quetzal feather tufts held in cups (or a cup)

While we are talking of hawk scratches - theoretically they are the well known symbol of the cuextecatl outfit based on the Mendoza warrior list, this may not be the case.

Both Mendoza and the Matricula show many suits in tribute not having hawk scratches.

The Tlatelolcan tribute suit with it's spindle whorl headdress instead of the conical helm is interesting in that it has definite religious implications, and the number in tribute exactly matches the number of suits worn in the religious ceremony relating to Tlazalteotl. It's one of the clues that sometimes tilts me toward the tribute suits aren't for warriors per se, but the warrior impersonators within religious ceremonies. I've not been able to put enough correlation together to take it beyond a hunch. On the other hand, that this particular tribute was imposed on the Tlatelolcan nobility must have burned as a direct provocation of their integrity and an in your face reminder of Moquihuix.

To the hawk scratches themselves, they appear in reference to two other suits which are not explicitly illustrated, but are described by Duran also in book 8:

The quetzal feather butterfly back banner was worn with the yellow parrot feather shirt decorated with hawk scratches made of gold.

The quaxalotl banner in yellow was decorated with balls of queztal feathers and gold. With it was worn a yellow shirt of yellow parrot feathers with hawk scratches made of gold
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 25, 2019, 07:36:36 PM
Thank's for your informations.

My version of bi-coloured Huaxtec suit. Maybe "the red ball" is too much?

Haw scratyches? In gold?

What do you think?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: von Lucky on March 26, 2019, 07:22:52 AM
Lovely. I wonder what these looked like after battle? I can imagine damaged and covered in blood!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: **GS** on March 26, 2019, 10:11:51 AM
Wonderful detail work all over this thread. Your research work shows it is not an easy task to be historically correct.
Keep it coming!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 26, 2019, 07:51:01 PM
Yes, what should remain after a fight :(

Here is my warrior with the modifications made (only quetzal feather on the hat, spindle quetzal feather)!

Thank you for your encouragements.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: pws on March 27, 2019, 02:19:22 PM
This maybe a little off topic, but I can see you all are very keen on aztecs.
Aztecs and Tlaxcans are two of my best loved DBA armies I painted.
I read a lot (same sources you used in this thread) before painting them.

I would like to paint some Tlaxcans in 28mm for a large skirmish game projects, like: SAGA, OGAM, etc.
Could you address me to some book specifically about Tlaxcan culture: gods, war suits, heraldry, tactics, etc...?

I.E: I could imagine war suits assignation system could be simila to aztecs? Or not?
Any contents in english, french, spanish, italian... will be appreciated
Ciao

PS: my 15mm DBA armies:
http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-19-tlaxcans.php (http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-19-tlaxcans.php)
http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-63-aztecs.php (http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-63-aztecs.php)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 29, 2019, 08:35:58 PM
Hello PWS,
I have only the work of Osprey and various images of the lienzo de tlaxcala.
But as soon as possible, I will make Tlaxcalan warriors.
I think, that for the formation of an army, for the no noblemen it must be quite similar.
For the nobles, I did not possess any information on the style of outfit during the warrior's progrssion.
The Lienzo, shows high- ranking warriors where nobles.
Since Tlaxcala being an indepedent kingdom, the banners are different from those of Tenochtitlan!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: pws on March 30, 2019, 09:07:19 AM
Hello PWS,
I have only the work of Osprey and various images of the lienzo de tlaxcala.
But as soon as possible, I will make Tlaxcalan warriors.
I think, that for the formation of an army, for the no noblemen it must be quite similar.
For the nobles, I did not possess any information on the style of outfit during the warrior's progrssion.
The Lienzo, shows high- ranking warriors where nobles.
Since Tlaxcala being an indepedent kingdom, the banners are different from those of Tenochtitlan!

Ciao,
Yes sure, thery are two different kingdoms so they must be different.
I was wondering now about difference in deities they worshipped... specially for the OGAM (do you know this rules?) project, I need to find some suitable gods/semi-gods/heros to put in the army.
I need to understand what was in common with aztecs and what is not.


Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on March 31, 2019, 07:29:41 PM
Hello gentlemens,
Here is a jaguar warrior according to the codex Mendoza. Apart from the Matricula de Tributos, I have not found a jaguar warrior, in action in the codex, with a color outfit!
And in the text???????

But, the Matricula de Tributos, it shows skin jaguar outfit, with coloured  bundle feathers and shield, according to the outfits that accompagny it (no quetzal feather)!

exemple: tribute of th city of.... yellow Cuextecatl outfit, feather yellow and shield two for the jaguar warrior!
Same in blue.
Perhaps, on the battlefield it was so?

Quetzal feather only for the higth noble on the battlefield?

What do you think ?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on April 03, 2019, 11:09:00 AM
I don't recall the source (Duran?), but the feather bundles to the head were signs of exceptional feats on the battlefield. They were called eagle feather bundles, or something close to that. Whether the translation misses the nuance of bundles of eagle feathers, or bundles of feathers of the eagle (ranked warriors), it's not clear. In theory the commentary mentions them around the levels of eagle warriors and above. I vaguely recall the text talks about 1 or sometimes two bundles for doing more exceptional feats. That's from memory.

Hello gentlemens,
Here is a jaguar warrior according to the codex Mendoza. Apart from the Matricula de Tributos, I have not found a jaguar warrior, in action in the codex, with a color outfit!
And in the text???????

But, the Matricula de Tributos, it shows skin jaguar outfit, with coloured  bundle feathers and shield, according to the outfits that accompagny it (no quetzal feather)!

exemple: tribute of th city of.... yellow Cuextecatl outfit, feather yellow and shield two for the jaguar warrior!
Same in blue.
Perhaps, on the battlefield it was so?

Quetzal feather only for the higth noble on the battlefield?

What do you think ?
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on April 03, 2019, 12:54:33 PM
I have bits of Tlaxcalan information, but I've not put it all together.

Camaxtli is their chief god, and their direct ancestor. He is also the god of Huexotzinco. He is commonly known as the god of the hunt, and his priests teach the skill of hunting, among other things. Duran draws and describes him with black face paint and white striped body paint. This imagery is also the same imagery used for warriors captured by the Aztecs that were sacrificed to the sun. There is a whole bunch of symbology etc that goes along with this, as well as a story of the Aztecs trying to steal this god's effigy from the Huexotzincas. (They loved collecting conquered people's god effigies from their temples that were then kept in a specific place in Tenochtitlan)

The Historia de Tlaxcala, in discussing military topics, is very generic and broad based across all of the various tribal groups, instead of speaking specifically of the Tlaxcalans. It says this:

And some of the greater lords, of the Mexicans and Acolhuaques and Tlaxcaltecas, were using quilted cotton coats which were tied up with strips of leather. They wore emblems of fierce animals: tigers(jaguars); lions(pumas); bears; wolves(coyotes); 'royal' eagles, all made with gold and rich and valuable green feathers which were greatly prized. All of the carving and construction for the emblems were done with skill and precious materials. They also wore golden jewellery and valuable featherwork and other valuable items.

By the late Aztec period the Tlaxcalans were formed of 4 major provinces in a confederation:
Tepecticpac (quaxalotl banner as their province banner)
Quiahuiztlan (sun banner as their province banner)
Tizatlan (white heron as their province banner)
Ocotelolco (green quetzal as their province banner)

The Historia gives this abridged version earlier in the Tlaxcalan history:
The principal emblem and arms of the house of Ocotelolco of the Maxixcatzis is a heron, or a green bird called a Quetzaltototl, standing on a large rock. The bird seems to have green feathers, a golden beak, and at the junction of the wings two patens of round gold and on the tail another one. The emblem and arms of the cabecera of Quiahuiztlan is a frame of green feathers in the manner of a wing or winnow. This is what they had as an emblem and arms for the Lords of this cabecera, and today they esteem it very much and call it Quetzalpatzactli. The cabecera of Tepeticpac has a very fierce wolf on a rock [hill] as their arms and emblem (the quaxalotl banner), and who holds in his hand a bow and arrows. They do not pay heed to any other arms and emblems as there were so many different ones in use according to their ancient customs.

Having said that, as per the aztecs, these provinces had subject peoples who had their own banners (i.e otomi inside the province had their own thing going on) and who came along as subject/allied warriors in their own separate groupings/formations.

This very rough translation from the Historia may help enlighten people about the role of nobles vs commoners in terms of war (this equally applies to the Tenochs, who firmly banned commoners from war):

After the cruel war of the Chichimecs of Texcalticpac, as earlier said, they began to descend from there and to found towns and places. They founded the cabeceras of Ocotelolco, and the of Tizatlan and Quiahuiztlan. It should be understood that there were not only four lords who came from this Republic, because in the same way there were populated many towns and places of other principal Chichimecs that had been leaders in their journey there, or captains, field marshals/generals and other occupations and corresponding responsibilities in the army. From which today there are founded many houses [lineages] with very good entailed estates and ancient homes. The ones that were recognised as the major houses then became the subsequent lineages, such as the one founded in cabacera of Tepeticpac, that they were attend to and recognised and respected by the King, and the same thing was done in the cabecera of Ocotelolco, Tizatlan and Quiahuiztlan. Of these houses and cabeceras, there were also many other Tecuhtlis (lords) with entailed estates, which is to to say knights and lords, and other houses which are called Pileales [Pilli] which means those of an ancestral principal noble’s house/lineage and which had particular considerations, because the descendants of these lineages were considered as qualified men. Although they may be poor people they did not exercise mechanical [mundane] occupations or low and vile dealings/work.

They were never allowed to carry loads [as bearers] nor to dig with coas [farming implement] or plows because they were said to be noblemen and they were not meant to do these things. The same applied to their descendants. They were instead to serve in war and on the frontiers and be like noblemen [hidalgos] and to die as fighting men which is an insane virtue and still persists today. They say they are nobles and knights [hidalgos and caballeros] from the beginning [of time] and that they are now better because they have turned and become Christians and converted to the true God, giving their obedience to the emporer Don Carlos, king of Castile. Besides this they were on his side and they helped him win and conquor all things around this New World. Granted the right and action that they were due from having fought against the Mexicans, in order that he [Don Carlos] becomes the universal king and lord of them, and for this reason they are noblemen and knights [hidalgos and caballeros]. They say these things with much boasting and folly that they never stop bragging about and thus when a bad Spaniard hurts them they tell him he is a bad christian and that he is not noble or gentlemanly and he must therefore be a villain, Moorish or Jewish or Biscayan, and as the final word they find other words with which to insult him and finish by saying that he is Portugese thinking they have said a great insult to him.

The use of suits in a similar manner to the Aztecs such as ranks is not known. Some banners and styles are common, such as eagles, coyotes, jaguars, etc some may not be because of who the Aztecs absorbed their symbology from. Some suits and styles are clearly god specific, and as the Tlaxcalans didn't follow these gods, those suits/shield patterns seem unsuitable.

If you check the Lienzo, the figures with a red and white headband should be suitable to pick for a tlaxcalan force, if that band isn't present, it may not be Tlaxcalan or their sundry allies/subject people. For example some warriors standing next to the Spanish may be Aztecs depending on the image you're looking at.

If you want to pick a hero figure, one of the holy symbols was a set of arrows specially prepared. If the first arrow hit somebody, victory was assured (I think that was how the story goes roughly from memory)

Sorry it's not all that useful, but that's about the snippets you're going to collect to try and build a force of some kind that is distinctly different to the Tenochs, Acolhua etc

This maybe a little off topic, but I can see you all are very keen on aztecs.
Aztecs and Tlaxcans are two of my best loved DBA armies I painted.
I read a lot (same sources you used in this thread) before painting them.

I would like to paint some Tlaxcans in 28mm for a large skirmish game projects, like: SAGA, OGAM, etc.
Could you address me to some book specifically about Tlaxcan culture: gods, war suits, heraldry, tactics, etc...?

I.E: I could imagine war suits assignation system could be simila to aztecs? Or not?
Any contents in english, french, spanish, italian... will be appreciated
Ciao

PS: my 15mm DBA armies:
http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-19-tlaxcans.php (http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-19-tlaxcans.php)
http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-63-aztecs.php (http://www.dba-italia.org/modellismo/simoncini/4-63-aztecs.php)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: pws on April 03, 2019, 05:14:58 PM
I have bits of Tlaxcalan information, but I've not put it all together.
.............

I'll start reading it friday, on the Flight to: SALUTE!  :-*

THANK YOU
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 07, 2019, 04:31:58 PM
Here are Cuachiqueh:

Codex Mendoza, banner seen only in the Codex MendozaThe yellow of his suit is checked by the codex Mendoza and Florentine.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 07, 2019, 04:35:55 PM
Codex Florentine, with Xopolli,

The feathers are quetzal feathers. But on the codex are parrot feather (yellow)
Many banners do not have quetzal feathers, but yellow or red (parrots)

Maybe for the war, the quetzal feathers are reserved for the nobles
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 07, 2019, 04:38:11 PM
Florentne Codex, with Patzactli. Here the second form of Patzactli. Colors are optional.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 09, 2019, 04:33:48 PM
I'm looking for information on the suit of Auitzol dressed on quetzal owl suit?

This is quetzaltecolot and owl aztec:
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 14, 2019, 06:05:02 PM
Here warrior from the codex Cozcotzin.

The outfit is two-tone red and blue.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 14, 2019, 06:07:05 PM
This one Cuextecatl of codex Moctezuma.
I think we can say that it existed among Tenochtitlan, a squadron that was two-tone red and blue!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on April 17, 2019, 03:21:39 PM
Rather than put these notes in a PM and have them lost forever, I thought I'd reply them into your post so that someone else randomly searching the net might find a couple bits semi useful. You asked some good questions so I got out my old books and had a read.

The short summary for your purposes is that if you want to paint the QueztalTeculotl all green because it says quetzal, go for it if it makes you happiest. In a wargaming context, nobody but extremely well read gamers are going to have a clue what it's about anyway. It was definitely used once, for part of one day, by a person who was given it to wear, acting as a hero in a skirmish situation accompanied only by 4 other warriors, who then is never mentioned again. The assumption is that he is dead because his name is not further recounted in the lists of brave warriors, and Cuauhtemoc also said that he would die in it. The Nahua text says he neither died, nor was he captured, and implies that he just vanished. Following this incident there are several days of non combat, then Cuauhtemoc flees and is captured. This warrior's skirmishing is the last combat of the war in Sahagun's text.

Did the original owner Ahuitzotl ever wear it himself when he was alive, outside of ceremony? We'll never know.

This suit is truly obscure, and only applicable obviously for a hero figure, and not in a formation of warriors you'd encounter any old time. You questioned whether it is a full suit version, or skirted version. Two things, every illustration of a bird outfitted figure in the Tenoch illustrations I have seen have all been full body suits, secondly, these illustrations always reproduce the original colour of that particular bird. Artistic stylisation or artistic accuracy? Maybe either way. Surely if jaguars can be reproduced in green feathers, then why not perhaps an eagle or teculotl if your imagination wants to lean that way. The only owl suit I recall illustrated is also by Sahagun in the Primeros, in the illustration for the Atamalcualiztli ceremony. Obviously that is a full body suit with natural colours.

I'm looking for information on the suit of Auitzol dressed on quetzal owl suit?

This is quetzaltecolot and owl aztec:

Anyway, onto nerdy notes and bits of thought. Sorry these are a bit mixed up, I added to them over a week or so and haven't gone back to straighten them up into a more coherent narrative:

There are 4 mentions of the QuetzalTeculotl in book 12 of the Florentine, all in chapter 38, in 3 consecutive paragraphs. I had to go back and dig out my codices to look specifically at the original Nahua and Spanish text. The name is written the same in both the Spanish and Nahua texts, and the Spanish commentary doesn't give any extra clues to what is going on. Chapter 38 doesn't have any illustrations either :( Interestingly the same paragraph that first mentions QuetzalTeculotl also has near its end the word tlacateculotl, yet Dibble & Anderson do not translate this as owl person but simply as devil/demon, which is what it is called also in Spanish. So what I'm saying is QueztalTeculotl is the word in both Spanish and Nahua texts, but the word TlacaTeculotl is written in Nahua, but in Spanish is written as demonio. Curious. The only clue you get to anything specific about the suit is in the Nahua it says that the quetzalli feathers go spreading. Quetzalli are specifically the long tail feathers of the quetzal bird, and are the long plumes used in shield borders, warrior sapote skirt lower hems, the long tail feather bundles on war suit helms or the long feathers on the back of a quetzal pamitl.

I don't recall the suit mentioned anywhere else, or even this particular incident mentioned in any other conquest accounts.

As you noted, Sahagun mentions this suit was one of the war suits of the former king Ahuitzol. He had at least 2 other suits from memory.

The interesting part of the story is the fact that this suit was even used in this conquest episode, for two reasons.

Firstly, by this stage of the conflict, the remaining Tenochs had fled to Tlatelolco. So clearly they had taken this suit of Ahuitzotl's from storage and carried it with them (ancestor veneration, one of the histories talks about keeping these things.) It would seem perfectly natural for Cauahtemoc to take his dad's suit as a personal treasure. This also indicates that they had also taken at least some of the other treasures of Ahuitzotl (if not also that of other former kings and the empire in general.)

Secondly, by this stage of the war, the numbers of skilled warriors must have been quite low as the military defences crumbled and some fled, many were killed, and the allied warriors from other towns defected to the apparent winning side. Seeking a way to inspire the remaining Tenoch/Tlatelolcan warriors, and to scare the opponents, they hit upon the idea of putting the suit of Ahuitzotl on a deserving warrior. They settled upon a warrior named (or titled) Tlapaltecatl Opochtzin (perhaps translated as the hunting lord from/of the house of many colours, and it should be noted one of the first founding lords of Tlatelolco was named Opochtli so perhaps he is a direct descendant of this lineage). He came from the barrio (or calpulli) called Coatlan, which the Spanish text clarifies as the barrio in Tlatelolco near the laperrocha (some type of rock/hill thing, my poor skills put it as a flat topped rocky hill rather than a dog??) called Santa Catalina in post conquest times. Therefore, this warrior is from a different but closely related tribe to the Tenochs, the Tlatelolcans. So to really break down all kinds of taboos, they put the sacred, personalised suit of a dead king onto a warrior from a different tribe who was also of a lower social class.

Stepping back to look at the Nahua part words, they are quetzal and teculot.

Your original contention is that quetzal means composed all of quetzal feathers, but I have not seen any translation of the adjective quetzal come to this conclusion. Various translations put quetzal at rich/precious, princely/royal, or iridescent depending on the context. Generally it is simply translated as precious.

A couple examples of the word in use for context, paraphrased from Florentine book 11:
QuetzalTotol which is the quetzal trogon, or more commonly the resplendent trogon. The feathers are described as iridescent, which D&A translate as glistening. These are the feathers we talk of/imagine when queztal is mentioned. The tail feathers are specifically referred to as quetzalli and often talk of featherwork refers specifically to quetzalli feathers. This includes the sapote skirts in warsuits and the feather fringes to shields. I've always imagined them as a nice mid green, the translations call it chilli green, but while staring at pictures of resplendent quetzals I noticed paintings always show them green but photos show them as a more turquoise blue/green. It appears as though this blue/green shift is the iridescence, and observing the banner given to Cortez that is now in Vienna, the colours of the queztalli feathers used are for sure iridescent and shift between beautiful greens and blues. Probably way more technical than someone painting toy soldiers needs to get to.
Quetzalatzcalli which roughly translates as quetzal shell - the shell which is rough and rotted bone like on the outside, but on the inside shimmers with colours of red and blue and green and yellow etc (i.e. iridescent/pearly like a like a rainbow) I believe it's a species of oyster
QuetzalHuitzilin which roughly translates as quetzal hummingbird, which is the broad tailed hummingbird, and is described with an iridescent green back feathers with the rest of the bird in other colours
QuetzalTezolocton which is the green winged teal/duck, described as such in Nahua because the head is ornamented with feathers that are like a quetzal feather. [i.e. they are also iridescent green]Most of the duck though is in other earthier colours.
There are several plants that are also a quetzalxxx, but try as I might I can't imagine any of these plant species having iridescence that would justify the quetzal adjective. Perhaps I'd need to see them in person and I'd get it.

Clearly none of these things are all green, and the quetzal component refers to a specific part or appearance of that item.

Rolling over to the things we're really excited about, war equipment.
Several items are described with a quetzal adjective.
QuetzalPatzactli - usually described not as a banner made of quetzal feathers, but a banner made of varied rich and precious feathers. Clearly including quetzalli as the outside fringe of feathers, but many other feathers also in bands
ichimal QuetzalXicalculiuhqui - usually translated as the quetzal shield with the stepped fret (or marketplace) design. It has no long quetzalli kind of feathers attached to it in the Primeros commentary/illustration, and obviously in this case is half red and half green. The quetzal may refer to the green half, or may refer to it being precious/lordly, which in this context it also is.
QuetzalPapalotl - the quetzal butterfly back banner, or the precious butterfly back banner. The core of it is green, with the fringes and extremities all in yellow. It reminds me of the Malachite butterfly (Siproeta stelenes) It has no special quetzalli feathers on it except the long plumes at the top common to just about all banners, so the quetzal component may refer to the green bit of the butterfly body? Perhaps they are the quetzal tzinitzcan feathers. Or alternately, this is a tlatoani suit, the banner is the princely butterfly if the quetzal word is translated that way rather than as green
QuetzalCuexyo quetzal huaxtec shield. Illustrated in the Primeros, it is however drawn in red rather than green. It is hard to determine why this shield would have quetzal attached to it as a description, except perhaps one band of feathers in the middle as green, which may mean that short band is of quetzal feathers, or it's just a translation/typo error in the original nahua writing vs illustration
QuetzalPamitl - quetzal flag banner. The banner is made of quetzalli feathers as the outer line of feathers, and yellow feathers as the base line of feathers
QuetzalQuaquavitl quetzal horn helm. This is mostly of yellow feathers, and has no quetzal feathers aside from a small cup on each side with a spray of quetzalli feathers coming from each cup.
QuetzalTzitzimitl - quetzal demon of the air. typical tzitzimitl with a sprinkling of quetzalli feathers through the hair line.

and so on and so on through items described as quetzal something. Most have a part of quetzal feathers, from a very small amount, to possibly none, to possibly a large portion of it. Even the QuetzalTotol back banner ( the back banner that is literally the quetzal bird, has the natural colours of the quetzal bird with red, blue and greens on it. There are other items in green such as the xolopapalotl which simply translates as the dark yellow butterfly back banner, but which looks extremely similar to the quetzalpapalotl and is drawn in green.

The point is that saying quetzal something does not make something all green, in fact nothing described as quetzal something is all green.

The second part of the name is teculotl. It's usually just translated as owl, but that's not correct enough. The Nahua makes it clearer that it refers specifically to the great horned owl (Buho Cornado), so the shape and markings of this suit should form a reasonable representation of this specific bird. This part of the name is pretty simple. The way the horns are, I would very much lean to those horns being quetzalli most likely the way they are depicted on the quetzalquaquavitli helm. Wings or no wings, claws or no claws? Based on the way eagles are also variously drawn, pick what you like, though I'd guess yes definitely if it's a ceremonial based suit, for a combat based one, maybe not. The stylisation of the suit is still going to come down to a personal opinion of how you feel they did things based on the contradictory and incomplete evidence of other similar bird suits. In some cases anything could be possible, there are ceremonial instances of jaguar suits with bird wings :o though I think that does get backed up by textual evidence also that says a specific warrior wore a combat suit composed of both jaguar and eagle parts.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 17, 2019, 07:29:45 PM
Thank you Cdm

It'is very complete. I think made a figure that will have the same feathers as a "Grand Duc" but decorated with quetzal feather on the top of the head.
I think it will come close to reality.

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 17, 2019, 07:33:37 PM
here is a red coyote warrior, with shield seen on the codex "Lienzo de Tlaxcala" and on a fresco of a church of Tlaxcala (attached to coyote warrior)!

Colors are cojonctural
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 21, 2019, 06:08:34 PM
The memories of a consquitador speacks of the Xochimilco army:

a white "squadron", but too red blue and black.

We find the black in mexicans (Tenochtitlan) army, but often with red:

Tzitzimitl, captain of army
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 21, 2019, 06:12:30 PM
Fire coyotle:

shield are the same of the black coyotl of the fresco of the church of tlacala country (near mexico today)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 21, 2019, 06:14:01 PM
And eagle warrior, with Patzactli banner
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on April 22, 2019, 03:11:31 AM
You've done some customising :) Good job.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 22, 2019, 05:55:09 PM
Thank's for all.

The fire coyotl are good proportions, but the Cacal Patzactli is too flat!

 It's hard enough to find the right proportions.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: cdm on April 23, 2019, 11:10:55 AM
From memory, the patzactli back banners are based on a frame described as a basket, and are generally applicable to Tlatelolcan warriors only aside from of course where they originally came from in Ayotlan. If you're stuck for proportions, use the quaxalotl frame as a guide if you're happy with the size of that. How big are the feathered fringes? Great question. For the quetzalpatzactlis, the outer fringe is made of the long tail feathers of the quetzal trogon, which are upto 1m long. Refer for example the sheer size of this fringe on the banner in the Vienna museum, which probably accurately could be described as the quetzalpatzactli head banner version. Note this head banner is laid out flat, I don't think that's how it was actually worn.

For the other patzactlis, the long outer fringe is likely going to be based on the long tail feathers of the applicable bird i.e. crow, scarlet macaw etc. and therefore much shorter than the quetzal version. For the cacal version, the red feathers may be from the wings of the roseate spoonbill rather than the macaw, but I'd not bat an eye at either version of colour, pure red certainly looks sexier than a washed out pink.

I think we had vaguely discussed an option that the head banner version of the patzactli and the Aztec artistic style of it may be deduced to look a lot like the standard north american eagle headdress we are familiar with from cowboy movies. Certainly some of the images in say Duran really look like this, whereas in say Mendoza it looks a little different. Sahagun's plate 80 from Book 9 is certainly very, hmm, reminiscent of a war bonnet laid out flat being worked on.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 24, 2019, 06:38:56 PM
Good evening has all,

A question for the wargamers.  Is it possible to know the size difference between the different brands that make aztec figurines:

Eureka Miniatures

Wargame foundry miniature

Old gringo 40'S

etc..

Thank you in advance
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 29, 2019, 07:04:41 PM
Here are two warlords of Xochimilco,, the colors theme is respected, and the suit possible.

The Lienzo of Tlaxcala shows two haircuts belonging to Xochimilco:
Simple peasant, a haircut like in Mexicas peasant, Noble, hair high up on the front and ponytail behind.

1 , Cuextecatl
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on April 29, 2019, 07:07:36 PM
2, Huaxolotlpantli (turkey-cok standard)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 07, 2019, 07:16:24 PM
Another warlord of Xochimilco (outfit always in black and red distinctive), a black jaguar!
It seems very plausible to me. Black jaguar exist (yes it's rare, but exist).
The shield comes from "Codex Primeros Memoriales", it's a Ocelotetepoyo chimalli.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 08, 2019, 04:07:17 PM
Mexicas Tlatoani (ruler) suit:

Yellow xolotl head, of yellow parrot feathers, with balls of quetzal feathers, was ornemented with gold. With it belonged a shirt of yellow parrot feathers with hawk scratch decoration in gold.

Schimalli: xicalcoliuhqui, like codex mendoza for Tlacatecatl.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 12, 2019, 04:10:18 PM
Tlatoani (ruler) suits, for Mexicas:

The quetzal feather butterfly was the burden for the back, with it belonged the yellox parrot feather shirt decorated with hawk scratches in gold. The shield with a golden butterfly in the middle. There was a quetzal feather claw with gold. The shirt was of yellow parrot feathers

This my version:

But second option for the chimalli:

Gold disc with in its centre of the quetzal feathers and over the butterfly in solid gold.
Ruler, with quetzal feathers earring, quetzal feathers skirt
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 17, 2019, 06:34:37 PM
Here is my version of the quetzaltecolot costume.

Miss the shield. I need the pattern of Ahuitzotl's shield, and of course paint the whole thing

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 19, 2019, 06:20:58 PM
Bird outfit:

When I wanted to paint Quetzaltecolot in green, CDM, told me it was very impossible. And he's right.

I remenbered a discussion on the internet, about 10 years ago. It was a pisture of Tenochtitlan's fall.
On the lake, on could see several canoes. On a canoe, you could see two warriors in bird suit, red and yellow.

A surfer said : "hooray, we can see that eagle warriors could be in color suit.
A said historian: " No, birdcostumes are made of natural feathers. Eagle in brown feather, red and yellow are warrior in parrot suits".

I think that is true. So for nobles, it is possible to find outfits of birds, eagle, parrot, owl, duck, etc.. but with feathers of natural colors!

Good paint ;)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: archiduque on May 20, 2019, 03:20:44 PM
Excellent stuff!!! ;)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 26, 2019, 05:11:55 PM
Thanks for everything Archiduque
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 26, 2019, 05:21:19 PM
It's time to talk about The Lienzo of Tlaxcala:
Here were 2 coyotls warriors. They represent great lord or a great warriors.

One Huexotzinga,  in yellow,
One Tlaxcaltec, in white. I chose white and red to make up a portion of my Tlaxcaltec army.

The Lienzo answers many questions, but asks as many.

To start, colors and materials:

The yellow is omnipresent. But I think that most of the outfits presented, can be of all colors!
The light orange color, is orange or brown (it depends on the copy)?
Small circle-shaped spot are feathers, or do they represent ocelotl skins?

That's all for the moment
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 26, 2019, 05:22:53 PM
Tlaxcaltec
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Cameronian on May 27, 2019, 09:39:59 AM
 :-* lovely stuff.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on May 27, 2019, 07:32:35 PM
Thank's Cameronian

For the coyotl of Tlaxcala , it is vignette 62 of the lienzo (but in white).

For the coyotl of Huexotzinga, it's the représentation of Osprey Publishing.
Osprey misrepresented the labret. It's a distinctive long curved labret ( tecacanecuilli)made of white sea shell., that a principal identifying characteristic. It was shaped to curl round close to the right cheekand not to protrude in front of the chin.
On this ladder, it's just a thick shot of white brush!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on June 09, 2019, 02:34:18 PM
Tlaxcaltèque warrior:
It's a noble warrior, cotton armour and feathers

The common warrior does not carry feather or very small plume. Large feathers or feathers of high quality, it's a noble of high rank or having achieved a great feat.

(The use of small plume of white feather, a trait shared by Huexotzingo with its neighours Tlawcala and Cholula)!

In the memories of a conquistador, it is written that the Tlaxcaltèques were under a large embargo from Tenochtitlan, of a little cotton and few precious feathers!
Maybe this is why, that in the lienzo de Tlaxcala, that the first vignettes show many warriors in maguey or cotton armor? Then after different conquest of city, the cotton and the outfit feathers appear in the vignettes!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on June 16, 2019, 04:51:40 PM
Codex florentine.
Here's a young noblemean in cotton armour. Is a Tenochtitlan or Tlatelolco warrior. He is accompagnied by two warrior from Huexotzinca. Relatively commonplace, and no!
Its shield is lined with leather strip. As sais above, there was a red and lue squadron. Here it is the shield that tells us this squadron. The peculiarity of its cotton armour, are the sleeves. Very different from the Mendoza codex!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on June 23, 2019, 03:45:45 PM
My version of Crane standard of tlaxcaltec town of Tizatlan:

I chose a tlaxcaltec chieftain from the Lienzo de Tlaxcala.
I opted from the beginning for the white color. I added a white crane with the wings spread.
Diaz's observation regarding the Tlaxcaltec who accompagnied Cortes when he marched back to retake Tenochtitlan in 1521," that every compagny had a standard, on which was embroidered a white bird with expanded wings, being the arms of Tlaxcala".

I worked the miniature "Eureka Miniature". I added an ehuatl with sleeves and created the feather headress.
I glued the beautiful crane from Outpost Miniature.
Many sources state that it was white, but Gomara describes it as "a golden crane with oustretched wings decorated with many figures done in enamel and feather work"!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: M.P. on June 24, 2019, 12:20:53 AM
Awesome paintjob  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on June 30, 2019, 03:58:54 PM
here is another tlaxcaltec warrior, according to the lienzo of Tlaxcala
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on June 30, 2019, 07:06:44 PM
Looking good, I've posted my Mayan efforts here: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=117454.0
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 01, 2019, 05:49:49 PM
Your work are really amazing 6 milPhil.

I work on the Huaxtec. There are many points of similarity between them and the Mayan, their "ancestors".
I will post my research and painting when I have advanced a little further in these!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: 6milPhil on July 03, 2019, 07:13:33 PM
Thanks, yours is impressive too.

Probably time to share this eh? More over on my thread  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/2l4Hov3.jpg)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 07, 2019, 07:51:24 PM
Aztec archer allies (cotton armour) of Mexicas

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 14, 2019, 06:29:11 PM
Xochimilco Warrior (outfit always in black)

The Florentine said:

There are two variants of the two captive warrior, one who took his second captive onhis own became the Cuextecalt suit, the other who captured an ennemy with the aid of others received only a white mantle and breech cloth and had is head "feathered" and cut in a style reminiscent of a zulu married warrior, for Tenochtitlan. But for the other city? Cut of hair?

Is this type of warrior shown on the codex lienzo de Tlaxcala?

I decided to paint the feathers in white to better slice with the black color of the outfit. Shield too of Lienzo de Tlaxcala.



Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 20, 2019, 08:36:45 AM
Hello, my final version of Quetzaltecolot:

Natural feather of great horned owl (bubo virginianus), and crest of quetzal feather. 
Shield with the dead head, shield of lord.

And, sacred animals in the Aztec pantheon and meaning:

Jaguar: night power and the underworld (realm of the dead)
Hummingbirds : good thoughts of men for the god
Butterflies : warrior who died in the war
Quetzal : associated with the sun because its wings shine like the ray of the sun (life and fertility)
Owl : the guide for the kingdom of the dead (perspicacity)
Bat : associated with death and sacrifice but also to fertility (Maya and Huaxtec too)
Snake : earthly incarnation of the sun and fertility
Eagle : Day power, sun, because he's flying under him
Rabbit : in relation to the moon
Duck : in relation to the water (underworld for the aztec)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 20, 2019, 08:39:32 AM
All comment will be the good come :)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: pws on July 22, 2019, 09:30:39 AM
I glued the beautiful crane from Outpost Miniature.

I orderd some backbanner from Outpost too some months ago for my forthcoming (next year) Tlaxies  ;)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 27, 2019, 05:03:57 PM
Patzactli

Patzactli would be a banner? It would show this example of the codex mendoza.

But how are the feathers arranged?
Primeros said: Quetzal Patzactli, "It is covered with diverse feathers (many colours). On top, on eache side, are rows of quetzal feathers wich face wich other!

Only two rows? Codex Florentine and Lienzo Quauhquechollan they show the feathers arranged in the style of the hats of the north american indians.

Other example of lienzo Quauhquechollan show Patzactli like a war cap but with one or two rows of feathers?

One thing is sure, Patzactli is a much a hat of war as banner

My example of Quetzal Patzactli are one row of feather (error?)
Banner are made with paper, water, glue and green stuff.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on July 27, 2019, 05:14:54 PM
Quetzal Patzactli (a little big)

Codex Mendoza
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on August 29, 2019, 04:17:44 PM
Tlaxcaltec noble:

Twin banner standards are common in the pictorial sources.
The particular variety depicted is of a type associated with the fertility god Xipe Totec.

In the lienzo de tlaxcala it is shown red and yellow, but should properly be red and white (Xipe Totec Colours).

So the suit can be white (or red).

The shield, carries a skull in the aztec way and not a skull as dran on the Lienzo (too European)!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Cameronian on August 30, 2019, 08:43:54 AM
Little gems.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Easy E on August 30, 2019, 03:54:32 PM
Awesome set of figures.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on August 30, 2019, 04:23:30 PM
Tkank's for all.

But the most difficult is to find all the errors contained in the Lienzo of Tlaxcalla
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on September 08, 2019, 05:18:09 PM
Aztec Army , Tenochtitlan, (book florentine codex):

Another example of existence of bi-coloured suit, and squadron, yellow and blue!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on September 16, 2019, 04:19:27 PM
Another bi-colored warrior (yellow/blue): a "Papalotl" warrior".

The Papalotl banner is built, always (except see exception), on the same model:
The center of Papalotl is made of one color and the ends of another.

The dress is made on the same model, main color with sleeve ends and "trusser" of another color.

Exemple (for lords):

Main color                                                           distinctive color

White                                                                         Red
Green                                                                         Red
Yellow                                                                         Red
Blue                                                                           Yellow (error on the codex Mendoza, only blue)
Green                                                                         Yellow
Yellow                                                                         Black


exeption : all in black (except for the feather on the cup , in red.


And eagle warrior, made only with one color:

Green for Tlil papalotl and black Ytz papalotl (special papalotlt)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on September 21, 2019, 04:21:49 PM
Bi-coloured unit:

Novice warrior and cotton armour noble
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on October 01, 2019, 06:12:37 PM
Noble with parrot suit (parrot Ara Ararauna).

Color of the god of war : Blue and yellow

Shield for noble (gold color for "talon")
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on October 25, 2019, 02:40:56 PM
Hello,
This is Tlaxcaltec veteran warrior who adopted a form of temillotl hair-style of aztec Tequihuahqueh (codice tlaxcala)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on October 25, 2019, 02:45:22 PM
And a hold Tlaxcala codex or the first Lienzo of Tlaxcala?

Look the suit, are very different of the Lienzo of Tlaxcala in color
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on October 25, 2019, 02:50:52 PM
and an other!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: FierceKitty on October 26, 2019, 02:07:17 AM
Lovely pics!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on November 02, 2019, 03:31:28 PM
Other plate. Look the feather fan with the bundle!
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on November 10, 2019, 03:52:00 PM
one other tlaxcalan warrior (lienzo of Tlaxcala)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Dr Mathias on November 10, 2019, 03:57:35 PM
Nice additions! Interesting to see what appear to be European swords being wielded by the indigenous allied warriors.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: OB on November 10, 2019, 06:28:55 PM
They are European swords. 

Excellent thread btw.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Dr Mathias on November 11, 2019, 03:45:12 AM
They are European swords. 

Right, I assumed so. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised to see that... after all, invaders tend to provide weapons to their newfound allies to help take out their neighbors. I just don't remember ever seeing that type of thing in illustrations from this period.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: OB on November 11, 2019, 09:44:02 AM
Post Conquest the Spanish legislated making it illegal for natives to own a Spanish sword.  I've often wondered if this meant the surviving allies had to hand theirs in.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on November 11, 2019, 04:18:19 PM
The first sword and shields appear very early.
During the Tenochtitlan siege , some very great warlord have a sword, a gift from the spaniard.
Then after the conquest, the gouvernor of régions or lords with power ower a région have a sword, given by the spaniards, to prove to the rest of the people that they are the doors words of the spanish autority
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: OB on November 14, 2019, 01:17:18 PM
Thanks Huron34, that's useful to know.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 02, 2019, 03:36:49 PM
A simple Tlaxcalan warrior.
But no feather on the head.
The Lienzo shows with or without feather for simple warrior.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 28, 2019, 04:23:29 PM
More classical Tlaxcallan elit warrior of Lienzo of Tlaxcalla

Miniature like the scheme of the Lienzo

I hope enjoy you
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on January 19, 2020, 03:43:30 PM
Tlaxcalan conch-shell trumpet
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on January 19, 2020, 03:45:43 PM
And four warriors and lord, in preparation for the future
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on January 19, 2020, 03:49:48 PM
photo
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on January 31, 2020, 04:51:34 PM
Another Tlaxcalan Lord, no a Tlaxcalan Prince or Tlatoani!

The outfit is the same as that of an Aztec Tlatoani.

 (Eureka model and Duro)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: von Lucky on January 31, 2020, 09:02:58 PM
Very nice.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on February 21, 2020, 04:27:32 PM
Here are two tlaxcalan Jaguar warrior:

Yellow helmet
Brown suit

And two variant?

The first is a great lord, the head of the jaguar and the body of eagle. Several codex show this kind of suit, and ewplain the brown of the suit.

The second is a jaguar warrior, as it is possible to see in another thunbnail of the codex of tlaxcala (one allied warrior of the mexicas) Why yellow head and brown suit? I don't no.

It's up to you to choose, both being, for me possible
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Morin84 on October 12, 2020, 07:47:28 PM
Here are two tlaxcalan Jaguar warrior:

Yellow helmet
Brown suit

And two variant?

The first is a great lord, the head of the jaguar and the body of eagle. Several codex show this kind of suit, and ewplain the brown of the suit.

The second is a jaguar warrior, as it is possible to see in another thunbnail of the codex of tlaxcala (one allied warrior of the mexicas) Why yellow head and brown suit? I don't no.

It's up to you to choose, both being, for me possible

Just discovered this thread and as I have been working on my Aztec and Tlaxcalan troops since April I'm finding it fascinating.  My stuff is posted on my blog - latest post with links to the others is : https://markamorin.com/2020/10/11/tlaxcalan-novices-elite-warriors-and-command-group/

I'm a gamer mainly and have no where near the depth of knowledge that has been displayed on this thread.  The painting has been awesome on the figures here.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on October 17, 2020, 07:20:15 PM
Good evening Morin,
the purpose of my tutorial was to show warriors different from what we usually see.
I hoped that this would lead other figurinists to do the same.
For the moment you are one of the few to be interested. (Your Tlaxcallan are very good).
Try to bring rare things, it will bring charm to your army
Thank's for all
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on November 27, 2020, 08:28:04 PM
Hi,
Here a noble Tlaxcalan with a bird banner. It comes from the sticker showing a cuauhtli-ocelotl (codex: lienzo de Tlaxcala).
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on November 27, 2020, 08:34:11 PM
 About the colours used by the "Liezo de Tlaxcala", the banner of ocotelolco was the quetzal bird. It'is represented in yellow!!!
The real color is green, of course.

Help me: there would be an engraver to make this banner as well as noble/warrior in Ehualt (Nic, Ged)?

Exemple of the noble of ocotelolco in ehualt with the quetzal bird (like lienzo)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Morin84 on December 02, 2020, 04:26:31 PM
Good evening Morin,
the purpose of my tutorial was to show warriors different from what we usually see.
I hoped that this would lead other figurinists to do the same.
For the moment you are one of the few to be interested. (Your Tlaxcallan are very good).
Try to bring rare things, it will bring charm to your army
Thank's for all

That's great to hear Huron34.  I have just finished off my 109 Aztec troops in addition to the Tlaxcalans, will be posting these soon on markamorin.com  - then on to the Spanish for Feudal Patrol games using the Civilizations Collide supplement that I wrote.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 13, 2020, 03:53:21 PM
Another Tlaxcalan warlord (Lienzo de Tlaxcala)
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 27, 2020, 04:25:08 PM
Cuachicqueh part 2


The codex florentino shows Cuachiqueh with or whithout "banners". Look part 1 for the banners.

Without banners:

Warriors in Tlahuiztli with Cuexyo shield (Warrior of Gringo 40 and shield of Eureka miniatures)

Warriors in Ehualtl with Otomi shield (warrior, modified, and shield for Eureka Miniatures)

The Tlahuiztli and Ehualtl, for the Mexicas are in yellow (codex Duran; Mendoza and Florentino)

Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 27, 2020, 04:27:21 PM
Ehualtl
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 27, 2020, 04:35:45 PM
The warrior class of Cuachicqueh is not reserved for Mexicas.
But we don't any information on what to wear in others tribes.
For example, we know that in the Huexotzinca, the cuachicqueh wore only a breechclout.

I think, as great warriors, idem for" nobles", their skins should be painted (whole or in part)?!

Look the curved labret, the two small feathers, and the back breechclout, principal identifying characteristic of Huexotzinca
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: BillK on December 27, 2020, 05:24:13 PM
Some very cool stuff here.
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Huron34 on December 27, 2020, 08:07:13 PM
Thanks
Title: Re: Aztec army
Post by: Raza Decon on December 28, 2020, 02:53:49 AM
Hello,

I have been following your thread for some time. I would like to recommend Paymaster Games. They have a large line of Aztecs as well as models for other Native American nations. Their models are the same scale as eureka, outpost, warlord and foundry. Paymaster's models would add some new looks to your already great army. If nothing else the heroes will bring some character into your army.

As a side note they also have allot of Mesoamerican mythical creatures, many from Aztec and Mayan cultures.

Here is the link to their web store -

https://www.paymastergames.com/aztec-triple-alliance (https://www.paymastergames.com/aztec-triple-alliance)

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/4265cf_a1e1176e35f643e9b4b60fac054b2a8c~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_319,h_425,al_c,q_85/4265cf_a1e1176e35f643e9b4b60fac054b2a8c~mv2.webp)