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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: HappyChappy439 on April 11, 2019, 07:01:51 PM

Title: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (12/11, P.10 - 1420s Foot Knights)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on April 11, 2019, 07:01:51 PM
Hi everyone!

So after rather too many late nights reading sources about the (Valois) Duchy of Burgundy, some excellent 28mm blogs, and a trip to Belgium last year, where I took a visit to Bruges, Leuven and Ghent, I got inspired to start a tabletop project around the duchy...combined with my other ASoIaF log, I got a bitten by the heraldry bug and wanted to do a bit more with historical heraldry, so it seemed like an idea to get to work practicing!

My plan is to be working on essentially two forces in parallel, an earlier army representing 1400-1440(ish) under Dukes John and Philip, and a later one based around a Compagnie D'Ordonnance under Duke Charles (or his half-brother Antoine) with the reforms to equipment and organisation.

So to start things off, here's my attempt at some free-hand tabard heraldry, to represent either Duke John the Fearless, or a younger Philip the Good (i.e before 1430 when he inherits Brabant, Limburg, etc.)

(https://i.imgur.com/THluqyI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nkzfeqU.jpg)

Let me know how he's turned out!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: OSHIROmodels on April 11, 2019, 07:52:38 PM
A very solid beginning  :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: SirGromit1879 on April 12, 2019, 02:56:43 PM
Wow that is lovely freehand work there. I have just been looking at some Burgundian heraldry and you have nailed it, especially the colours =). Looking forward to your later Burgundians!!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: Charlie_ on April 12, 2019, 06:21:45 PM
Very impressive, the heraldry is done really well.

Is that the latest freebie figure that comes when you buy 3 plastic boxes, for the Agincourt knights?

Looking forward to seeing this progress.

Though working on two periods of the same army in parallel sounds a bit crazy! Wouldn't you rather focus on just one at a time to get more units finished??
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: AKULA on April 12, 2019, 07:33:25 PM
Great job - I hope though you aren’t going to slack off on your Westeros project, I’m relying upon you for motivation

 :D
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 14, 2019, 11:37:31 AM
Very nice indeed.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: jamesmanto on April 14, 2019, 11:41:49 AM
  8)
I don't think you could hope for better.
Absolutely top drawer!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: HappyChappy439 on April 15, 2019, 07:18:14 PM
Thanks for the kind words everyone!

Very impressive, the heraldry is done really well.

Is that the latest freebie figure that comes when you buy 3 plastic boxes, for the Agincourt knights?

Looking forward to seeing this progress.

Though working on two periods of the same army in parallel sounds a bit crazy! Wouldn't you rather focus on just one at a time to get more units finished??

Yup! That's the freebie officer that comes with the plastic knights!

I'm *hoping* I can avoid it getting a bit too ambitious by focusing on the HYW-era Burgundians more than the Charles the Bold era ones, but without totally neglecting the latter!

Great job - I hope though you aren’t going to slack off on your Westeros project, I’m relying upon you for motivation

 :D

Don't worry! I've got some plans on how to sneakily mix the two (possibly!...somewhat!)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy!
Post by: Captain Blood on April 15, 2019, 08:16:18 PM
That’s a fine piece of paintwork on a lovely figure  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 06/05, Archers for Antoine)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 06, 2019, 10:04:32 AM
Hi again everyone!

Bit of a delay from the last post, I've been trying to track down various sources to describe how the Burgundians would look in the early 1400s, but it seems that my French is...stumbling, at best, so it's a bit of a limiter!

In the meantime, I've been working on the 'later' Burgundians a bit, starting with some test figures to represent the archer contingent led by Antoine, Grand Bastard of Burgundy. I've based them on Painterman's fantastic Ducal Guard conversions in their Je Lay Emprins blog, which I highly recommend! http://je-lay-emprins.blogspot.com/2012/02/burgundian-ducal-guard-test-figures.html

(https://i.imgur.com/fAp5iQy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9sgguIf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FjgqWhD.jpg)

I'm basing the livery and paint scheme off an assortment of illustrations I've seen going around, and from snippets of Jean de Haynin's account of the Battle of Montlhéry. A red surcoat with a white cross of St. Andrew, with a blue 'barbicanne' in the middle, with flames shooting out from it.

I've given them green/white leggings, based on the illustrations I've seen, but my French isn't good enough to have found a source where this is described, does anyone know where this comes from?

I'm not sure whether Antoine maintained his own force of archers after his half-brother started the Ordonnance system, with its new uniforms, or whether they were restricted to Montlhéry, but I figure that it'll be nice to have a unit that breaks from the blue/white livery of Ordonnance troops!

Let me know how the test figures have turned out! My plan if they've turned out ok (and if they're historically compliant) is to have a unit similar to the Master W.A illustration of a rank of archers, and a rank of polearm-armed infantry, in Antoine's livery.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 06/05, Archers for Antoine)
Post by: Charlie_ on May 06, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
Very nice, I like those metal archers a lot - I'm planning to use them for French 'francs archers' of the same period.

I'm not sure whether Antoine maintained his own force of archers after his half-brother started the Ordonnance system, with its new uniforms, or whether they were restricted to Montlhéry, but I figure that it'll be nice to have a unit that breaks from the blue/white livery of Ordonnance troops!

I may be wrong, but wasn't the famous blue/white livery just for Charles's own company / ducal household troops? If you don't focus just on his troops, I think you can come up with any livery colours you want behind the St Andrews cross. But I may be wrong....
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 06/05, Archers for Antoine)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 06, 2019, 09:23:01 PM
Very nice, I like those metal archers a lot - I'm planning to use them for French 'francs archers' of the same period.

Thanks! I'm a big fan of the sculpts, they fit really well for a more organised, less scruffy infantry!

I may be wrong, but wasn't the famous blue/white livery just for Charles's own company / ducal household troops? If you don't focus just on his troops, I think you can come up with any livery colours you want behind the St Andrews cross. But I may be wrong....

Ah! Thanks for the heads up! Jean de Haynin has a lot of pretty detailed descriptions of the liveries of all the retinues of Charles' allies and vassals, so there's definitely plenty of room! Worst case I can just base them around forces at Montlhéry!

And for a quick redaction on my previous post, looks like de Haynin does address the green/white leggings situation later on in his Memoires:

"les archers de corps de monsieur le bastard tous revestus de nouveaux paltos d'orfèverie, l'une chausse blanche, l'autre verde; et estoit le fond de leur paltos rouge."

Though it does seem ol' Antoine is a bit fickle when it comes to his liveries, after Montlhéry de Haynin describes his archers wearing yellow surcoats with the blue barbacane without the cross of St. Andrew (I think this is his attendants during a tourney, but I'm not sure?) But it seems that doesn't last, and Antoine goes back to red later on!

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 06/05, Archers for Antoine)
Post by: SirGromit1879 on May 07, 2019, 08:19:07 PM
Really like your red livery looks lovely!. A whole unit of those are going to look very smart indeed :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 19/05, Dismounted Coustiliers)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 19, 2019, 11:11:50 AM
Hi again!

Another update for Antoine this week! I've decided to paint up some more Perry metals as dismounted Coustiliers from Antoine's retinue, to accompany the dismounted bowmen.

(https://i.imgur.com/7nRzqvS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JpethdX.jpg)

My plan is to build up both the archers and dismounted coustiliers up to units of 12. Hopefully Antoine's personal livery looks good en masse!

I'm still in the process of reading up and researching around the early Burgundians, and how their livery, banners and forces would look, so hopefully once I find some more information, I'll get some HYW era ones painted up for Duke John!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 19/05, Dismounted Coustiliers)
Post by: poulppy on May 20, 2019, 07:46:47 PM
Really great painting job !
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 19/05, Dismounted Coustiliers)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 02, 2019, 01:04:55 PM
Hi again!

Another update, with more members of Antoine's retinue today, this time I've finished up the block of dismounted archers (or at least 12 of them, not sure if on the tabletop that 18 would be better, but hey!)

I've got a mix of Perry plastic and Metals in there to fill out the unit, focusing on liveried bodies where possible.

(https://i.imgur.com/CoSp1dR.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ycwqJBx.jpg)

And combined with some of the Coustilliers to reference our ol' friend Master W.A.

(https://i.imgur.com/yTswCXJ.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/64/06/b0/6406b013b282e809b6f5b394372626c6.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 02/06, Antoine's Archers, Completed)
Post by: Charlie_ on June 02, 2019, 01:45:55 PM
Really cool! Would love to see a whole army like that..
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 02/06, Antoine's Archers, Completed)
Post by: Mr.J on June 02, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
They look fantastic! Well done
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 02/06, Antoine's Archers, Completed)
Post by: commissarmoody on June 03, 2019, 01:49:19 AM
Great work!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 02/06, Antoine's Archers, Completed)
Post by: Mick_in_Switzerland on June 03, 2019, 08:06:04 AM
Those are amazing - well done :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 02/06, Antoine's Archers, Completed)
Post by: painterman on June 03, 2019, 11:54:29 AM
Very nicely done- they look the part!
Simon
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 02/06, Antoine's Archers, Completed)
Post by: poulppy on June 04, 2019, 08:11:32 AM
Beautifull !
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 16, 2019, 12:34:23 PM
Thanks for the kind words everyone!

Really cool! Would love to see a whole army like that..

I think my plan for the 1460s-1470s era units is to have a few blocks of units for some notable commanders at Montlhéry (the bastard of Burgundy, the Count of Saint-Pol, Charles himself, Duke of Cleves, etc.) though, technically speaking, only their 'archers du corps' would be specifically liveried, but I might take some liberties there!

This time however, for a bit of a change of pace I've decided to paint up some units for duke John the Fearless. I've been trying to get a lot of reading done over the last couple of months around the Duchy of Burgundy in the HYW, but it's slow going where my French is lacking (no better time to learn though, right?). In particular, I've been using Les Armées Des Trois Premiers Ducs De Bourgogne as a source, and I've contacted a few history professors for advice on a paper I'm doing on the topic so that's been extremely helpful, in particular I'm extremely grateful for the help and support from Bertrand Schnerb who very kindly took the time to answer some questions!

For this update, I've painted up a block of Flemish pikemen, who occasionally (though much less often than I'd expected) appear in rosters, generally only to defend places within Flanders itself, such as in 1405, where a large group (129) of pikemen is mustered to defend the towns of Flanders against the English. For this particular block, I've used as a reference the Pikemen who appeared at the Siege of Chateau-Chinon in 1412, where Jean du Bois, Lord of Annequin was accompanied by 25 pikemen.

(https://i.imgur.com/YZkfl7Q.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1skzsVA.jpg)

And here's Jean du Bois (listed as "monseigneur du Bos et d'Anekin" in the book) himself, he later dies at Agincourt, but I figure for later years I can use him to represent his heirs.

(https://i.imgur.com/wyknSQw.jpg)

My plan when painting up the unit was to have it be as livery agnostic as possible (thanks Charlie for the inspiration!), and with fairly drab colours for the poorer common soldiery, so that with a change of banners and commanders they can be substituted in for other armies, such as Liégeois, Scots, Swiss, or Westerosi, I guess!

(https://i.imgur.com/b0UjSHX.jpg)

The models themselves are a mix of Perry plastics and metals, with the plastics being a kitbash between the Agincourt bodies and WotR mercenary pike arms.

Let me know how they've turned out!

[Edit] In retrospect, the civilian colours I chose of drab green, red and yellow ended up making them look like traffic lights, whoops!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: Captain Blood on June 16, 2019, 07:38:17 PM
I like ‘em!

Multi tasking is good.

A fair number of my Murrey-and-blue liveried Yorkists double very handily as Tullys ;)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 16, 2019, 07:47:49 PM
Splendid progress  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: poulppy on June 19, 2019, 08:54:56 AM
Great Army
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: Thoronde on June 19, 2019, 07:36:10 PM

For this update, I've painted up a block of Flemish pikemen, who occasionally (though much less often than I'd expected) appear in rosters, generally only to defend places within Flanders itself, such as in 1405, where a large group (129) of pikemen is mustered to defend the towns of Flanders against the English. For this particular block, I've used as a reference the Pikemen who appeared at the Siege of Chateau-Chinon in 1412, where Jean du Bois, Lord of Annequin was accompanied by 25 pikemen.

'
In what publication did you find the numbers of the pikemen being present at Chateau-Chinon & the campaign of 1405?
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 19, 2019, 08:47:33 PM
'
In what publication did you find the numbers of the pikemen being present at Chateau-Chinon & the campaign of 1405?

I'm using "Les Armées Des Trois Premiers Ducs de Bourgogne" by Jules De La Chauvelays (the Scholar Select version, if that helps!). It's a really detailed, interesting account of the full compositions, and expenditures for the Burgundian armies, and gives an insight into what proportion of troops would come from each province, or accompanying particular knights, lords and esquires

The Pikemen in the Campaign of 1405 gets described from page 113-115, specifically as a defense of Gravelines (and the surrounding area), with a large group of crossbowmen. While the Siege of Chateau-Chinon is described from page 203-207 (with the pikemen in particular being mentioned on page 205).

I will say though that a lot of the information is purely numerical or financial, so there's not much description of the appearance or equipment of the Burgundian forces, as a heads up!

I hope that helps!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 16/06, HYW-era Flemish Pikemen)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 27, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
Hi again everyone!

This time I've been dabbling in some speculative vexillology! Focusing on John the Fearless in particular.

During my researching around symbols and expressions of factional identity in the Armagnac-Burgundian war, I've found it actually surprisingly difficult to get a clear depiction or description of John the Fearless' own flags and banners, being a pretty concrete expression of allegiance. I dug around manuscripts and paintings to try and find something, but it seems that there is much less in the way of surviving visual material (compared to his grandson's own flags 50 years later).

We know that Duke John did have a personal standard, so I set out to try and work out a design to use!

As a starting point, I decided to work off of the assumption that the personal standard would be vastly different to the heraldic banner. So with that in mind, I went to look into symbols and devises associated with John the Fearless (in which this page by the University of Poitiers has been a huge help http://base-devise.edel.univ-poitiers.fr/index.php?id=1494 ).

During the Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War, Duke John adopted the 'rabot' (a carpenter's plane) as a personal device, partly to spite his rival, the Duke of Orléans who chose a knobbly stick as his own symbol. Similarly, images of John are also associated with a hops branch, and a level (for extra carpentry symbolism).

There's a depiction of John the Fearless on a throne, with a banner behind him in Pierre Salmon's Dialogues from the 1410s, with hops branches and 'rabots' featuring heavily, which gives a nice visual base to work from, however it isn't a battlefield standard.
(https://i.imgur.com/p6a88yL.png)

There's a similar recreation of this banner in the 'Tour de Jean sans Peur' in Paris:
(http://img.xooimage.com/files74/b/5/a/dais-jsp-3-2c55a67.jpg)

Interesting to note, the Duke's personal colours (light-green, white, and later adding black) are not used, instead crimson and gold are on the agenda!

Looking at other standards of the era, they often feature the mottos of their owners, so I wanted to integrate Duke John's own motto "ICH HOUD." 

For extra information, I'd also been digging around sources like "Memoires Pour Servir A L'histoire De France Et De Bourgogne," and Bertrand Schnerb was again kind enough to provide some quotations and sources describing accounts and purchases of banners and standards by Duke John.

One of these quotes describes an order of banners, standards and pennons in 1406 during a campaign against the English in Calais, where there is a description of how the ducal standard looks (he ordered three made in this campaign). I've tried to translate it to the best of my ability:
"Three standards, 4 to 5 aunes long...with a large rabot, and the field embroidered with many small rabots and shavings"
The same account describes lance pennons being ordered, all coloured vermilion with gold rabots and shavings sewn on them.

Another one of the quotes provides a fairly specific description of a purchase in 1418 in preparation for a campaign against the English. Part of it describes an overview of the appearance of one of these standards, where my rough translation and paraphrasing of works out as:
"Purchase of a large standard, using five pieces of crimson satin for the field, and five aunes (a unit of measurement) of white satin. Embroidered with rabots, and shavings from the rabots"

So my attempt, based on the descriptions, and speculation based on existing personal standards of the era (mostly Henry V's), I've come up with the following design:

(https://i.imgur.com/1eev6WG.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZhxEpYc.jpg)

And here's Duke John with his standard
(https://i.imgur.com/n85UTx9.jpg)

Let me know what you think! And if I've gone catastrophically off the mark with the design any criticism and feedback is welcome!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 27/06, Speculative Ducal Standard)
Post by: Breazer on June 30, 2019, 05:09:31 PM
Great looking force so far Happy! great stuff
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07, Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on July 09, 2019, 09:03:37 PM
Hi again!

I'm back with something...technically unrelated to Burgundy at all, but rather some War of the Roses content!

I wanted to practice my heraldry painting, and try my hand at making a vignette (I've not done one of those before!), so inspiration struck, and I decided to make a small vignette recreating the (rather dramatised) death of Edmund of York, Earl of Rutland, where he is executed by Baron John Clifford in a revenge-driven attack, murdering the earl with his dagger in some sources, to avenge his father (killed at the first battle of St. Albans). This version of events may not actually be true, but it makes for a dramatic image! So I set to painting...

For this Vignette I've got the unfortunate Rutland, bound and captured, before a furious Lord Clifford, and one of his men at arms, wearing the Clifford wyvern livery

(https://i.imgur.com/EdbVMQf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/jV0uxTj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/agEjIfO.jpg)

Here's the individual figures from the vignette

(https://i.imgur.com/rOqXC6S.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ieBVvex.jpg)


The Clifford man-at-arms
(https://i.imgur.com/6DjJChH.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/b6w0M1N.jpg)

John Clifford, "The Butcher", 9th Baron Clifford
(https://i.imgur.com/UbBz1XC.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4ClGUn8.jpg)

Edmund Plantagenet, Earl of Rutland (who took an unreasonably long time to paint!)
(https://i.imgur.com/UlGqXRF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wDFN79i.jpg)

Let me know how it's turned out! I tried out a different way of taking photos so hopefully that's made a difference to how they've come out!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07 - Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: jamesmanto on July 09, 2019, 09:36:23 PM
Very well done indeed
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07 - Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: Captain Blood on July 09, 2019, 09:57:47 PM
Great vignette. Well done  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07 - Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: commissarmoody on July 10, 2019, 02:03:34 AM
Your efforts were worth it. They look great!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07 - Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on July 11, 2019, 09:22:51 PM
Thanks for the kind words all! Glad it turned out ok!

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07 - Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: Helen on July 11, 2019, 10:21:44 PM
Nice done with the heraldry. Lovely vignette.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 09/07 - Earl of Rutland Vignette)
Post by: SirGromit1879 on July 13, 2019, 07:22:01 PM
Beautifully painted figures, and i feel sorry for the poor chap about to be murdered, he is posed so well!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 21/07 - Bastard of Burgundy Billmen)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on July 21, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
Thanks again for all the kind words with the Vignette! I may try more in future!

But for this week, I've finished off a block of infantry for Antoine the Grand Bastard of Burgundy at Montlhéry (in 1465). I'm using them to represent Coutiliers in his service, fighting dismounted as a group of polearm-equipped infantry (I use 'billmen' in the post title mostly because I'm a sucker for alliteration!)

(https://i.imgur.com/BBqqf3w.jpg)

For their banner, I decided to give them a pennon in the style of some of the later Ordonnance pennons, but in the colours of Beveren, a town associated with Antoine, and conveniently with the same heraldic colours as Antoine himself!

(https://i.imgur.com/YvHxg84.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nS7IzmS.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out! My plan is to have a large block of archers, and a few men at arms led by Antoine himself, as part of his contingent as the rear-guard at Montlhéry
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 21/07 - Bastard of Burgundy Billmen)
Post by: fred on July 21, 2019, 04:12:06 PM
Excellent, I really like this unit.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 21/07 - Bastard of Burgundy Billmen)
Post by: Captain Blood on July 21, 2019, 07:47:43 PM
Fancy!  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 21/07 - Bastard of Burgundy Billmen)
Post by: commissarmoody on July 23, 2019, 10:18:11 AM
Nice!  :D
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 30/07 - Array of Antoine's Archers)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on July 30, 2019, 09:25:14 PM
Hi again everyone!

Got some more of the Grand Bâtard's retinue finished, this time a big block o' archers de corps!

(https://i.imgur.com/yiK9DDh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/pWi8hI4.jpg)

I wanted to take some liberties with the banner for this unit, being Montlhéry era (i.e pre Ordonnance), I assumed the standardised company banners wouldn't have been adopted yet, but I took the basic layout of some of Duke Charles' "Je Lay Emprins" banners that you see in his later archer companies, and make them more Antoine-y, so replacing the motto with "Nul ne s'y frote", adding the barbecane, and having the colours in blue/yellow rather than blue/white.

For reference, the image I'm using as a comparison is the depiction of Antoine's banner in "La Mission de Jeanne D'Arc" which has a reconstruction in there...although trying to paint the font on the letters they use was a nightmare!

It's not strictly historically accurate, but I thought it'd lend a bit of variety to each unit.

(https://i.imgur.com/cWtDCw9.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Fhv5aC3.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out!

(edit: I've updated the photos because the focus/lighting was a bit wonky on the first try!)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (Update 30/07 - Array of Antoine's Archers)
Post by: fred on July 31, 2019, 07:50:18 PM
They have turned out really rather well!!!

I can’t believe the detail and complexity you are painting on the livery jackets, halved colours are usually enough for me.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (07/08 - Grand Bâtard Retinue Complete)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on August 07, 2019, 07:33:29 PM
Hi again!

I've been busy trying to finish this first contingent of Burgundians so I've knocked together a unit of men-at-arms to finish off ol' Antoine's battle. The men-at-arms themselves are straight-builds from the Perry MAA box, with added plumes, and green-stuff sashes on the cuirasses (inspired by painterman), while the standards are based on Antoine's heraldic banner, and an illustration of his personal standard given in La Mission de Jeanne D'arc (itself based on a decription by Jean de Haynin)

(https://i.imgur.com/tZs2IEz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8DOauf0.jpg)

Antoine himself is a converted Perry Warwick. I added a plume to his helmet to make him more 'Burgundian,' and a half-caparison for his mount, based on a description on the Mémoires of Olivier de la Marche (Charles the Bold's captain of guards). In his account, Antoine the Grand Bastard, has his horse draped in tan velvet, embroidered with a gold Barbecane, and gold letters representing his motto "Nul ne s'y frote"

(https://i.imgur.com/9TZC3OM.jpg)

I wasn't quite sure how those letters would be laid out on a caparison, so I based my painting on an example in a manuscript:

(https://i.imgur.com/0LjvmG7.png)


So with those men-at-arms finished, I've completed my retinue for Antoine the Grand Bâtard of Burgundy, so here's some group shots (with hastily airbrushed out Westerosi!)

(https://i.imgur.com/a5S7e0x.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Z5RiGD3.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out! Plan is next to focus on a similar retinue for Charles the Bold, as count of Charolais so lots of black/purple!

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (07/08 - Grand Bâtard Retinue Complete)
Post by: commissarmoody on August 08, 2019, 07:46:18 AM
They look great! Keep up the good work.  :D
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (07/08 - Grand Bâtard Retinue Complete)
Post by: fred on August 08, 2019, 08:35:12 AM
They look really good.

And I’m impressed with the historical research you have done, and then been able to apply to the units.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (07/08 - Grand Bâtard Retinue Complete)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on August 08, 2019, 05:19:13 PM
Thanks for the kind words!

And I’m impressed with the historical research you have done, and then been able to apply to the units.

Honestly the research has been a lot of fun! I went into this pretty ignorant around Burgundy (and also VERY limited in being able to read French), so being able to learn all sorts of new stuff has been a great experience!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (07/08 - Grand Bâtard Retinue Complete)
Post by: fred on August 09, 2019, 07:57:17 PM
That’s really good to hear.

I think too often we take the easy route of published army lists and scenarios, going back to the history to find out more is always good. It’s even more impressive if you are going back to original language sources.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (14/08 - Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on August 14, 2019, 12:55:58 AM
Hi again!

Quick update this time, before I get stuck in on Charles, Comte de Charolais' retinue (and possibly Baldwin, Bastard of Burgundy), I decided to put together and paint a figure to represent Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy after 1430.

(https://i.imgur.com/rewIuDG.jpg)

As the extremely wealthy and influential Duke of Burgundy I wanted to set him apart from both the men-at-arms and his vassals and knights, so he gets a full suit of gilded armour, and lots of embroidery! It's quite exceptionally gaudy! Just because he's a man of wealth doesn't mean he's a man of taste!  lol

The figure himself is a converted Perry Buckingham, where the rider himself is mostly unmodified (I thought with the big chaperon he made a good Philip!), while the horse has a plume attached, and a half-caparison done with green-stuff.

The caparison itself has Duke Philip's arms, in his personal device of a fire-steel, while his outfit I've tried to paint after the various portraits of Philip which have him in an all-black outfit (I've added some little grey detailing to change things up a little)

(https://i.imgur.com/XmUFn1b.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Z9LGc3E.jpg)

Hopefully he's turned out ok! Freehanding heraldry like that on such a small area is quite difficult!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (14/08 - Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy)
Post by: Blackwolf on August 14, 2019, 02:16:13 AM
Brilliant work!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (14/08 - Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on August 15, 2019, 05:27:47 PM
As a quick follow-up post, here's a family photo of my Valois-Burgundy characters so far!

Grandpappy John the Fearless, Philip the Good, and lil baby Great Bastard Antoine

(https://i.imgur.com/ZuBo2dA.jpg)

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (14/08 - Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy)
Post by: Captain Blood on August 15, 2019, 07:31:11 PM
He looks splendid. Nice job on the heraldry.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (14/08 - Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy)
Post by: SirGromit1879 on August 16, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
Wow I love that red liveried unit brilliantly done, great to see them all toghether. Fantastic job on the heraldry too, really nice and crisp!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (14/08 - Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy)
Post by: jamesmanto on August 21, 2019, 08:55:22 PM
Quote
As the extremely wealthy and influential Duke of Burgundy I wanted to set him apart from both the men-at-arms and his vassals and knights, so he gets a full suit of gilded armour, and lots of embroidery! It's quite exceptionally gaudy! Just because he's a man of wealth doesn't mean he's a man of taste!  lol

He is the height of early 15th century taste and elegance!
Absolutely brilliant!

Antoine's retinue is just FABULOUS!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 29, 2019, 11:56:16 PM
Hi again!

So this update is a little bit of a tangent, and more of a jaunt FROM Burgundy, than to it! In my rather frenetic attention span, I ended up re-reading some old material around Margaret of York's involvement with supporting Yorkist pretenders from Burgundy, and it captured the imagination! The whole concept of a hidden prince sailing back to depose some usurper is a pretty engaging narrative premise (and probably was at the time too, given the success of the imposter pretenders at getting support!)

So with that in mind, I started work on trying to put together some figures to represent Lambert Simnel, the poor 11 year old who was set up to impersonate the Earl of Warwick (son of the Duke of Clarence), and rather unfortunately got caught up in the schemes of the Yorkist rebels in 1487. I wanted to get some practice doing some more sculpting, so this seemed like a good opportunity!

For this I've got the pretend-prince, and a couple of retainers provided by the Earl of Lincoln (with the trumpeter wearing the old Clarence colours of Murrey and Blue) on a bit of a command base for the three of them.

(https://i.imgur.com/xoXScjV.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/otnnmkM.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iqKhcbn.jpg)

And here's the pint-sized pretender himself. I've given his outfit just the 'generic' royal arms of England, so potentially he could be subbed in for the Prince of Wales around Wakefield, with a swap of banners!

(https://i.imgur.com/e11Ac13.jpg)

Let me know how he's turned out! I'll probably do some more Stoke Field adjacent stuff to go with the Burgundians (there's always room for some rough-tough Martin Schwartz types in the ducal armies after all!)

This was also my first foray into using Pete's Flags and I am VERY impressed with the quality of the flags, I highly recommend them!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: painterman on September 30, 2019, 08:39:43 AM
Love the teenage Pretender (and the other figures), a great idea which has loads of gaming uses!
Simon.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: OSHIROmodels on September 30, 2019, 08:42:36 AM
Splendid  :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: Captain Blood on September 30, 2019, 09:20:16 AM
Great job. At first I thought he was a hobbit, but he's a scratch sculpt? Impressive :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 30, 2019, 09:53:41 AM
Great job. At first I thought he was a hobbit, but he's a scratch sculpt? Impressive :)

Oh no, his top half is a Hobbit at least! I had to mutilate poor Frodo for that!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: Captain Blood on September 30, 2019, 09:55:43 AM
Ah lol That explains it. I thought that cloak and hairdo seemed familiar!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: Plynkes on September 30, 2019, 10:10:08 AM
Champion! Wasn't that other famous pretender supported by Burgundy, too? You should do him as well.

In fact, what I'd like to see is a ludicrous and unhistorical tabletop match up: Lambert Simnel vs. Perkin Warbeck!  :)

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: commissarmoody on October 01, 2019, 06:55:06 AM
Great idea and conversion.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: Thew2 on October 01, 2019, 07:20:43 AM
He looks great!  Excellent use of a hobbit, to make a very believable child pretender.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/09 - Lambert Simnel)
Post by: Atheling on October 01, 2019, 08:33:31 AM
In fact, what I'd like to see is a ludicrous and unhistorical tabletop match up: Lambert Simnel vs. Perkin Warbeck!  :)

That would be fun!!  lol
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on October 02, 2019, 11:24:40 PM
Champion! Wasn't that other famous pretender supported by Burgundy, too? You should do him as well.

In fact, what I'd like to see is a ludicrous and unhistorical tabletop match up: Lambert Simnel vs. Perkin Warbeck!  :)


Well, I gotta say you inspired me! So here's another quick update! I've kitbashed together a quick conversion for Perkin Warbeck!

(https://i.imgur.com/b3V4OI1.jpg)

I've tried to base him around the one contemporary drawing of the man, from the 15th century, combined with various portraits of Edward IV:
(https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Gemma_Watson3/publication/286243057/figure/fig1/AS:304424674185217@1449591906355/the-only-known-contemporary-portrait-of-Perkin-Warbeck-Sanguine-on-paper-Arras.png)

(However, someone told me the portrait reminded them of that one meme image of Handsome Superman, and I cannot unsee that, so it's now ruined forever!)

(https://i.imgur.com/611mLE2.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mbcWOaK.jpg)

I've tried to practice my steady-hand painting here and do some floral embroidery on his doublet (because York and roses and all that), no doubt provided by one of the many royal courts Perkin Warbeck would frequent!

(https://i.imgur.com/ITNA0yk.jpg)

Let me know how he's turned out! I'm quite pleased with him, and he could sub in for other late-15th-century nobles, like Edward IV himself!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on October 03, 2019, 07:34:36 PM
Whoops! Double-post! I decided to repost the Perkin Warbeck images after giving his face a bit of a touch-up, couldn't let him pretend to be Richard IV with a big ol' smudge on his cheeks!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: Thew1 on October 04, 2019, 08:57:44 AM
Really impressive freehand on your burgundian heraldry and embroidered pretenders. Looks brilliant!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: Plynkes on October 04, 2019, 09:42:27 AM
Oh nice! Thank you for indulging my crazy whim, and sorry for giving you the extra work.


Chrissie Hynde next, then (that one is a joke).  :)


Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: Captain Blood on October 06, 2019, 08:44:16 PM
Great job on him  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: Ogrob on October 06, 2019, 09:08:49 PM
Wow, excellent freehand!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/10 - Perkin Warbeck)
Post by: Ragnar on October 10, 2019, 04:56:22 AM
Nice job on Perkin Warbeck!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (17/10 - 'Mercenary' Pikemen)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on October 17, 2019, 12:46:05 AM
Thanks for the kind words about ol' Warbeck!

As a bit of a tie-in, I've been working on a block of some rough-tough Martin Schwartz mercenary types! Starting off with some pikemen, who I'll support with a few bases of handgunners

(https://i.imgur.com/hl9jR5w.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UqDYI1E.jpg)

Although the main aim was to have them represent the mercenaries hired by Margaret of York to support Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck in their rebellions, I wanted to keep them as generically 'Burgundian' as possible so they could be fielded in a few different contexts. Contemporary descriptions don't really describe them in a whole lot of detail aside from being well armoured, so I went for as many bodies with brigandines and visible plate armour as possible!

But to avoid tying myself to just the assortment of German, Swiss, Flemish and Dutch mercenaries I've kept them fairly livery independent, so there's references to other groups and periods, like some blue/white as a callback to Duke Charles' ordonnance companies, and some outfits to imply other states, like yellow/red for Cleves. The idea being that they could be mercenaries hired by the Dukes of Burgundy (Charles himself hired Martin Schwartz during his campaigns after all), English pretenders, some hastily assembled feudal militia to fight Louis XI after Charles' death or battered remnants of the Ordonnance companies and proto-Landsknecht at Guinegate under Mary and Maximilian

The banner is a fairly simple cross of St. Andrew on a black field, as a little reference to an illuminated version of Philippe de Commines' memoirs from the early 16th century. The illumination is supposed to represent Montlhéry, and although there's no mention of pikemen being present at the battle on either side, the fairly simple banner felt like it could work....plus, I'm a sucker for wordplay and a black banner for Martin Schwartz felt appropriate:
(Way at the back on the Burgundian side)
(https://www.meisterdrucke.pt/kunstwerke/500px/French%20School%20-%20Ms18%20f7v%20Battle%20of%20Montlhery%20during%20the%20War%20of%20the%20League%20of%20-%20%28MeisterDrucke-418543%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (17/10 - 1480s-ish 'Mercenary' Pikemen)
Post by: Atheling on October 17, 2019, 07:33:12 AM
Nice work!  8)

Their livery, normally, would have been that of their captain.

Or possibly given the lay of the land as regards to where they were recruited some may have turned up to muster in their 'town'/'township' liveries.

Apart from that...... it's anyone's guess really :)

 
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (17/10 - 1480s-ish 'Mercenary' Pikemen)
Post by: SirGromit1879 on October 24, 2019, 07:10:28 PM
That Perkin Warbeck miniature is beautiful the coat is really good love the colours. What colours did you use for the red and embroidery?
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (17/10 - 1480s-ish 'Mercenary' Pikemen)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on October 25, 2019, 07:09:40 PM
That Perkin Warbeck miniature is beautiful the coat is really good love the colours. What colours did you use for the red and embroidery?

Thanks so much!

So I tried to keep myself to Citadel colours for that one.

The red was (on black primer) - Khorne red, with a black wash, then highlighted with Mephiston red, then once that'd dried, painting over that with the Flesh-Tearers Red contrast paint

The embroidery was a base of Balor Brown with highlights in Screaming Skull.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (17/10 - 1480s-ish 'Mercenary' Pikemen)
Post by: SirGromit1879 on October 26, 2019, 06:43:10 PM
Thank you for that I will try and pick up those citadel paints, such rich colours! :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (20/01 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 11, 2020, 10:10:18 PM
Hi everyone! It's been a bit of a while but I've got another update, this time with actual Burgundians!

John the Fearless was one of the big reasons behind me starting this project, he's an interesting character, and his tenure as Duke is a fascinating period, I'd highly recommend doing some research around him! But at the same time, Burgundians during the Hundred Years War (or the Armagnac-Burgundian Civil War more specifically) are a bit unrepresented in wargaming. With that in mind I set about putting together a command base for Duke John

(https://i.imgur.com/Ah07C7p.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lqgejbP.jpg)

Ol' Duke Jean sans Peur himself is based on the Perry Agincourt 'herald' model, who I've chopped and sculpted a bit to get the Duke's distinctive hat and outfit. I've based his colour scheme on miniatures from Pierre Salmon, where he is often shown wearing a big flowing houppelande, in particular at one point he's wearing a black houppelande, heavily embroidered with his personal symbol, the 'rabot.' So I used that example as the basis for my interpretation, complete with the stylish pink sleeves. Meanwhile his horse's saddle and bridle are coloured with his personal colours of black, white and green 

(https://i.imgur.com/jUU9BeK.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ItcgQrA.jpg)



Also on the base, the standard bearer is Jacques de Courtiambles, a Burgundian knight, who had fought with Duke (then Count) John at Nicopolis, bore his standard at Othée in 1408, and then continued to serve the duke, and his son into the 1420s. His arms (from what I've found) are three white stars, so I've used those on his houppelande

(https://i.imgur.com/pnnXKgd.jpg)

I've had another go at the ducal standard, based on a description of the standard the Duke commissioned in 1406 (and 1418), describing a crimson standard, with a large rabot and a number of smaller rabots embroidered on it. I've also been taking some cues from an Andrey Kurkin illustration. I've not been able to find a description that includes the Cross of St. Andrew, so I left that out.

Here's the illustration I used, for reference:
(https://i.imgur.com/TnG7So0.jpg)

And my interpretation of the standard
(https://i.imgur.com/84GAQrE.jpg)

And a comparison shot with my previous attempt at the standard, I'm quite happy with how the new one has turned out!
(https://i.imgur.com/1MPaOgW.jpg)

Finally, on the base I've included two pavesiers, in the colours of the ducal guard (again, black, white and light green), however I've not included their "Bundle of arrows" on the sleeve that the ducal archers du corps wore.

(https://i.imgur.com/kDnqvFY.jpg)

The pavises themselves are based on contemporary items which include the ducal devise, and also the Cross of St. Andrew, based on a record from 1410 where the Duke orders two pavises "with the devise of the Duke."

(http://img66.xooimage.com/files/b/6/7/rrrrrrr-2c556f8.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9S1nnkN.jpg)

The Duke seems to quite rarely use his own coat of arms in his banners and assorted imagery, in favour of his personal symbols, which leaves quite a lot of opportunity for experimentation and research, which is great fun! I've enjoyed putting this base together so I hope it's turned out ok! Let me know how they've turned out! 

(Edit: It seems that I had too many images in a single post, so moving the explanation for the standard onto another post!)

(Double Edit: it looks like the culprit was a y-with-an-umlaut character, fun fact!) I've reverted the post back to how it was!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (20/01 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: Atheling on January 11, 2020, 10:24:17 PM
Really nice work and it's great that you're looking into a section of Late Medieval warfare that is often overlooked. The part played by John the Fearless during the HYW ( or rather, the series of conflicts that constitute what we call the HYW which is the best way to understand it) .

Keep up the great work!  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 13, 2020, 07:18:42 PM
(Edit: reverted the banner explanation to the other post, now that I've found the culprit of my replies failing to post!)

Really nice work and it's great that you're looking into a section of Late Medieval warfare that is often overlooked. The part played by John the Fearless during the HYW ( or rather, the series of conflicts that constitute what we call the HYW which is the best way to understand it) .

Keep up the great work!  8) 8) 8)

Thanks! Though I think I may have shot myself in the foot somewhat! Whereas I wanted to keep the 1465-era Burgundians pretty limited to people who were in or around Montlhéry, with the HYW ones, I wanted to keep them as independent as possible from any one given battle...which has the unfortunate side-effect of needing to take a lot of notes to find knights, nobles and consistent contributors of soldiers across almost 30 years (Othée to Anthon)! Sometimes it's fairly simple, you get a lot of de Vergy, de Chalon, de Croy and de Luxembourg types for example, and others where either the individual knights survive the entire civil war, or people in their family do at least(so the coats of arms can get reused!) but Agincourt really thins out the numbers a lot!

It's one of those cases where Les Armées des Trois Premiers Ducs de Bourgogne is an absolute lifesaver of a source!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: Atheling on January 13, 2020, 08:22:57 PM
Philippe de Commines is your friend in this :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: jamesmanto on January 26, 2020, 06:38:25 PM
Lovely stuff.
Great command group.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: Breazer on January 29, 2020, 09:09:38 AM
Very cool command Happy, also... is it possible the banner carries Dutch words? It's as if i see an old spelling of "I Love" in Dutch. I might be entirely wrong here and be seeing things.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 29, 2020, 07:58:42 PM
Very cool command Happy, also... is it possible the banner carries Dutch words? It's as if i see an old spelling of "I Love" in Dutch. I might be entirely wrong here and be seeing things.

Yup! That's Dutch (or, well, Flemish) on the Banner, translating to "I hold," (though I think "I love" is definitely the modern meaning from what I've been told!) The Duke chose to use Flemish for his personal motto in part to endear himself to his new (occasionally rebellious) subjects in the County of Flanders, and partly as an implied threat to them after Othée. So the double meaning of "I hold" being that he "held" the Flemish's interests, but also that he had a hold *on* them!

Enguerrand de Monstrelet suggests that the motto is also a response to the Duke of Orléans' motto of "I challenge!" So where Orléans was challenging, Duke John responded with a motto implying "I accept!" As part of the tit-for-tat propaganda war between the two Dukes (Orléans uses a knotted branch for a symbol, so Burgundy uses a carpenter's plane, etc.)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: Jericho on January 29, 2020, 08:55:32 PM
Very cool command Happy, also... is it possible the banner carries Dutch words? It's as if i see an old spelling of "I Love" in Dutch. I might be entirely wrong here and be seeing things.

I don't think it relates to love at all as it is written on the flag. A literal translation of "I love" would be "Ik hou van" (I love of).  Also the "d" isn't written or spoken in the first person.
The word used more for love would be "minnen" or "beminnen". Which can be used from romantic love to friendship.

In this context it stands for Middeldutch "houden" or "halden"; in today's Dutch "niet afstaan" or "to not yield" or "to not surrender". So to hold, guard, keep etc.

So if it was a response to the Duke of Orléans, it would be more akin to "I do not yield" as a proverbial middle finger. And it would be fitting for the man they call the Fearless.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: Atheling on January 29, 2020, 09:40:52 PM
I don't think it relates to love at all as it is written on the flag. A literal translation of "I love" would be "Ik hou van" (I love of).  Also the "d" isn't written or spoken in the first person.
The word used more for love would be "minnen" or "beminnen". Which can be used from romantic love to friendship.

In this context it stands for Middeldutch "houden" or "halden"; in today's Dutch "niet afstaan" or "to not yield" or "to not surrender". So to hold, guard, keep etc.

So if it was a response to the Duke of Orléans, it would be more akin to "I do not yield" as a proverbial middle finger. And it would be fitting for the man they call the Fearless.

The personal motto of John the Fearless seems to have been the Dutch, "Ik houd" ("I hold").

Linkage:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0Foy9GGgdcgC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=what+was+john+the+fearless%27+personal+motto&source=bl&ots=ZN9YcJe9jo&sig=ACfU3U33M6_--g-8Wqx5SP5ST6NFE1yFKg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR2cu-4qnnAhU_VRUIHRdZAdgQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=what%20was%20john%20the%20fearless'%20personal%20motto&f=false (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0Foy9GGgdcgC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=what+was+john+the+fearless%27+personal+motto&source=bl&ots=ZN9YcJe9jo&sig=ACfU3U33M6_--g-8Wqx5SP5ST6NFE1yFKg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR2cu-4qnnAhU_VRUIHRdZAdgQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=what%20was%20john%20the%20fearless'%20personal%20motto&f=false)

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 29, 2020, 09:45:02 PM
For some extra reading about the motto (in French though, as a heads up!) there's a good description here:

http://base-devise.edel.univ-poitiers.fr/index.php?id=1519

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (11/01, P.6 - Duke John the Fearless)
Post by: Breazer on January 29, 2020, 11:24:05 PM
"I hold" makes sense too... its the same word but nowadays you would probably use different words to express that meaning. But very cool nonetheless. Also shows how little I know about history, the young uncultured pup that I am.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 31, 2020, 07:36:47 PM
Hi again!

Given that this project will probably involve a whole heap of Men-at-arms (mounted or otherwise) I figured it would be good to get a few captains set up! I've decided to include them based on high-ranking repeat appearances in the ducal armies between 1403 and 1430 (Sorry Enguerrand de Bournonville!)

So for a start, I've put together a figure to represent one of the Princes of Orange of the house of Chalon-Arlay who supported the Dukes of Burgundy during the period, either Jehan III or Louis II, depending on whether I'm looking before or after 1418.

(https://i.imgur.com/UhursO8.jpg)

For the most part, the family of Chalon-Arlay were rather loyal to the Burgundian faction, and contributed a pretty impressive number of troops to the Ducal campaigns. For example, in the immediate 3 weeks after Duke John's assassination, the Prince of Orange provides 2 knights, 204 men-at-arms , 45 infantry and 4 trumpeters, on pretty short notice!

The big example of the Princes of Orange engaging in overt military action on behalf of Burgundy is probably the Battle of Anthon in 1430, where Louis II is defeated by the Dauphin's forces (to such an extent it severely damages the Burgundian military presence in the South of France!). I've not seen Anthon get much attention in wargaming, so I wanted to give myself the option of fielding an Anthon-focused force, just in case!

There were (naturally) members of the family who weren't on such good terms with the Burgundians, and Louis Count of Tonerre waged a private war on Duke John the Fearless for a time! Which thankfully gives a bit of leeway if I want to field some adversaries to the Burgundians too! 

The Chalon-Arlay coat of arms was quite fiddly to paint, especially on the sleeves, so I hope it's come out ok!

(https://i.imgur.com/9klPGx1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AqdbDT4.jpg)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: Atheling on January 31, 2020, 07:45:08 PM
Nice work. It's good to see you have a real passion for your subject  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: Charlie_ on January 31, 2020, 07:58:38 PM
Aha, what a coincidence!

I've been researching the Princes of Orange myself, and am planning a figure for the one who was around in 1477 - he switched sides from France to Burgundy (Duchess Mary and her husband Maximilian), and led a rebellion against the French in the recently occupied County of Burgundy (which he'd actually help conquer in the first place). He's got very nice heraldry, so I'm looking forward to getting him done.

Yours has turned out very nice, well done. The freehand heraldry is impressive.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: Hupp n at em on January 31, 2020, 09:04:41 PM
Lovely painting!  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: painterman on February 01, 2020, 10:51:56 AM
Great work on those - really enjoying the new figures you're doing.
Nice collection!
Simon.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: ragbones on February 01, 2020, 02:57:11 PM
Oh, my...they’re beautiful.  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (31/01, P.6 - Prince of Orange)
Post by: Breazer on February 01, 2020, 04:37:46 PM
a very nice addition! Well done!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (23/02, P.7 - Ducal Guard Test Figures)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on February 23, 2020, 09:00:55 PM
Hi again!

Another Jean sans Peur adjacent update! I've been trying to puzzle through how John the Fearless' ducal guard (his archers du corps), there's not really any conclusive description or depictions for how exactly they would have dressed!

I've tried to piece together a few different sources to get an assumption going, mostly relying on descriptions in "Memoires Pour Servir A L'histoire De France Et De Bourgogne," which itself quotes accounts by the ducal chamberlain Jean de Noident. There's quite a general description which explains that the ducal archers were issued clothing in black, white and light-green cloth, with a bundle of arrows embroidered on the sleeve. However there's other descriptions which contradict that somewhat! Saying that the sleeves may have been embroidered with rabots, or the arms may have had strips of cloth in the ducal colours from the shoulders!

So with that in mind, I also took a look at Pierre Salmon's "Dialogues," which has some lovely contemporary illustrations that could be useful! There's an image featuring Duke John, with a number of soldiers around, so I figured they'd be a good reference!

(https://i.imgur.com/ra8O6ic.jpg)

The chap on the right of the image here also has some of those cloth strips from his shoulders too! Which also make an appearance on the Royal Huntsman in one of the illustrations in the "Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry" from roughly the same time period

(https://i.imgur.com/UQ1rBZo.jpg)

Most of the figures in the illustrations are wearing houppelandes though, and they're rarely shown in more than one (or two at most) colours, which left me in a bit of a bind in working out how exactly the ducal guard would wear three! I've decided on a compromise there, by not really having a 'uniform' for the guard, but working off a more general theme. So using the Agincourt French infantry as a base, I've decided on bodies in houpelandes to be just in the plain green (with the black and white elsewhere), but ones in the other bodies would have a tricolour livery going on, with all of them having the duke's Rabot badge on their chest.

(https://i.imgur.com/B1CJg5Q.jpg)

Similarly, I've opted for a combination of 'shoulder-stripes' and embroidered sleeves to get both of them included

(https://i.imgur.com/7azc86H.jpg)

And of course because they're the ducal guard, who Duke John spent an awful lot of money on, they've all got a full set of kit, with a sword and buckler to go with their bow-and-arrows

(https://i.imgur.com/SkD0V0i.jpg)

I hope they've turned out ok! And hopefully the reasoning behind the designs isn't too outlandish! If it's all fairly accurate and turned out ok, I'll probably put together a full unit of them! If anyone knows any more information that I've missed here feel free to let me know!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on April 03, 2020, 06:50:08 PM
Hi again!

A bit of a delay from the last post sorry! But now that I'm under lockdown I've been making a start on some of my backlog!

So as part of that I've painted up a unit of pavesiers from Lille, as part of the Burgundian force under John the Fearless, they're mostly Perry metals, with a couple of plastic infantry in the mix

(https://i.imgur.com/u2T8pgY.jpg)

Lille was pretty much the administrative heart of ducal power in the County of Flanders under John the Fearless, and generally reliably loyal to the duke too. Les Armées des Trois Premiers Ducs de Bourgogne mentions the city militia providing soldiers for the Ducal armies a few times, including during John the Fearless' campaigns in the Vermandois in the early 1410s where they provide 150 crossbowmen and 75 pavesiers.

And because it's hard to see the guys behind their huge pavises here's a few more pictures at other angles

(https://i.imgur.com/ObYPu7E.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/4Y12RkF.jpg)

And here's a couple of my favourites from the bunch

(https://i.imgur.com/MgPVwkh.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out! Painting that many fleurs-de-lys was difficult!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)
Post by: AKULA on April 03, 2020, 06:56:53 PM
Cracking job...at first glance I’d assumed you’d just used transfers on those pavise.

Personal preference...I’d be tempted to grubby up the pavise a little , but lovely paint jobs

 :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)
Post by: Captain Blood on April 03, 2020, 07:29:17 PM
Great job. Lovely fleur-de-lys  :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 03, 2020, 08:39:14 PM
Really nice painting.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)
Post by: Atheling on April 04, 2020, 07:46:08 AM
Great work. The fleur de lis are especially well executed  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/04, P.7 - Lille Pavesiers)
Post by: Sparrow on April 04, 2020, 03:49:22 PM
Really well done!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (02/05, P.7 - First Few Charolais Archers)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 02, 2020, 08:06:35 PM
Thanks for the kind words everyone!

Another quick update this time, fast forwarding 50 years back to Montlhéry!

It's been a while since I put together the retinue for Antoine, Bastard of Burgundy, so I figured it was probably time to make a start on his half-brother Charles, the Count of Charolais!

Similar to Antoine's retinue, I went back to Jean de Haynin's Mémoires to get a description for Charles' guards' livery:

"Ceux des archers du comte de Charrolois estoient de drap my-parti de noir et de violet, les archers de corps ayans une croix Sainct- Andrieu de deux bastons nentelleux dedans un fusil, et un C et I) ès deux costez dudict fusil, tout d'orfèverie"

(And posted from another thread, here's the translation)

"The archers of the Count of Charolais had parti-coloured cloth of black and violet, the archers of the body [his personal guard] had a cross of St. Andrew made up of two knotted batons, in a fire-steel, with a C and I on either side of the fire-steel, all in gold"

Most of the description is fairly clear but I found myself scratching my head over what colour to make the Cross of St. Andrew. With other liveries, they get described as specifically one colour or another (like, Antoine specifically described as having white for example), but Charles doesn't get a specific mention! I was torn on either using red as a 'default,' white for consistency, or gold in line with the other ornamentation!

(https://i.imgur.com/rEzxrDw.png)

Thankfully Atheling clarified that red is a likely candidate for the livery, so I settled on that one! (Thanks Atheling!)

So with that on mind, here's the first two test archers for Charles' bodyguard, plan is to have a unit of 24 to go along with his half brother's (incidentally, painting teeny tiny Gothic script is difficult!)

(https://i.imgur.com/mXgVXEf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6PVTHKm.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/nXD1Jwv.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/06Z84LS.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out, and if I've made any glaring mistakes with them too!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (02/05, P.7 - First Few Charolais Archers)
Post by: Tonhel on May 02, 2020, 08:29:32 PM
Great work!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (02/05, P.7 - First Few Charolais Archers)
Post by: Atheling on May 02, 2020, 09:17:31 PM
I think you have nailed it. The livery colours are spot on and the 'badge' (actually part of the livery) is very finely done  :-* :-* :-*

Thankfully Atheling clarified that red is a likely candidate for the livery, so I settled on that one! (Thanks Atheling!)

No probs. Thank Google Translate too  ;) :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (02/05, P.7 - First Few Charolais Archers)
Post by: Christian on May 03, 2020, 01:26:17 AM
They look lovely, well done! And a good bit of detective work there... love seeing that.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (02/05, P.7 - First Few Charolais Archers)
Post by: bluewillow on May 07, 2020, 07:01:58 AM
Superb investigation on the archers well done

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 29, 2020, 01:43:50 PM
Hi again!

Bit of a gap since my last update! It's been a pretty hectic couple of months!

I've been spending most of May and June working on getting a big force of horse (of course!) for Charles, the Count of Charolais during the Battle of Montlhéry, before he had gotten his nickname. Turns out painting all these horses took a pretty long time! Most of them are straight builds of either Perry plastic/metal Men-at-Arms, with plumes added from the Perry Swiss heads, and green-stuff straps sculpted onto each of their breastplates (very much inspired by Simon's Je-Lay-Emprins blog) to set them apart as obviously 'Burgundian'

There's a lot of images in this post, as a heads up!

(https://i.imgur.com/CQMQc0v.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xaDSqjl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FL7dLT9.jpg)


And for the banners in the unit, I decided to put four together (mostly for symmetry), so here's my explanation for each one:

The first one is Charles' own heraldic banner, with his coat of arms as Count of Charolais
(https://i.imgur.com/1yhNCBD.jpg)

Incidentally, the Valois-Burgundy coat of arms is fiddly to paint! I like to think I've improved since I made a try with Antoine's version last year though!

(https://i.imgur.com/nUjxI9Y.jpg)

The second flag is Charles' personal standard, I've based it on the description given in Jean de Haynin's Mèmoires:

"L'estandart du comte de Charrolois estoit tout de soye my-parti de noir et de violet, à un bel brancage l'un parmy l'autre.

(Which I'm assuming translates to "The standard of the Count of Charolais was black and violet, with beautiful branches(?), one over the other" )

I've not found a concrete depiction of the standard itself, so I've decided to base it on a later standard which also features linked branches:

(https://i.imgur.com/7CgqbsJ.jpg)

And then I stuck a cross of St. Andrew on it, just to make it more 'Burgundian'

Unfortunately, I couldn't get an angle on it where the lighting didn't reflect off of the flag itself, so it's slightly obscured here sorry!

(https://i.imgur.com/xtXo68O.jpg)

The other two banners are more 'territorial' ones. On the left is the yellow lion on a red background for the County of Charolais (all the examples I found had the lion facing backwards, which I thought was a bit unusual!). While on the right is the unmodified banner of the 'old' Duchy of Burgundy, I don't know if there's any actual historical basis for this being carried into Montlhéry, but it does feature fairly often in manuscripts describing the battle, I assume it's just a visual shorthand for "These are the Burgundians!" rather than necessarily an accurate inventory of banners, but it's a nice simple banner to paint so I included it!

(https://i.imgur.com/YspTKom.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/DSul0kz.jpg)

And here's Charles himself, he's just a straight paint-up of the Perry figure, I've given him purple and black livery to go along with his personal colours as the count (rather than the red he's normally shown wearing), but kept the plumes as blue/white to tie in with Duke Philip's own colours

(https://i.imgur.com/RDGZz2X.jpg)

And here's a family photo of the Valois-Burgundy personalities I've put together, Duke John, Duke Philip, Count Charles and Antoine, the Grand Bastard

(https://i.imgur.com/trTkToa.jpg)


Mixed in with the unit I wanted to include a few of the chroniclers and historians who wrote about Montlhéry themselves and fought alongside the Duke in the battle, seeing as I'd used their writing when putting together my Burgundians I figured (hah) I'd include representations of the writers themselves!

From left to right we have Philippe de Commynes, Olivier de la Marche and Jean de Haynin

(https://i.imgur.com/XjmtPmd.jpg)



And here's just a few shots of the rows of men-at-arms themselves

(https://i.imgur.com/TftSMnt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2LsU9HC.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: AKULA on June 29, 2020, 01:50:28 PM
Impressive looking force   8)

I don’t know what it is about plastic horses, but I find it harder to get motivated for building them, than building a dozen foot figures...I just need to be in the right frame of mind, so I’m envious whenever I see such a great host assembled and painted so well.

The banners (and plumes) really round them off.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: Charlie_ on June 29, 2020, 05:17:50 PM
Fantastic! They've turned out really well.

That Charles the Bold figure is a really good sculpt.... it's the one you get free when you order 3 boxes of mounted men-at-arms isn't? I am sorely tempted to buy the boxes just for the figure, and the same with the light cavalry boxes for the mounted burgundian officer.... I mean, I'm sure I'll get round to needing 3 more boxes of each over the next few years, it's just buying them all at once just to get a couple of metal sculpts might be a bit crazy!

Can I ask what colours you used for the horse of the standard bearer with the black and purple flag? I'd like to try that colour out myself...

As for the 'old burgundy' flag, I'm planning to use it for my own post-1477 burgundians for the same reason. Even though it technically is just for the french Duchy itself, not the County or any other burgundian territories, I think it was used for whomever held the title 'Duke of Burgundy'. (I've seen it once or twice in artwork used by Maximilian - even though he (or his son Philip) held the title Duke of Burgundy, they didn't actually hold the Duchy itself, which had reverted back to France. Yet I think the flag was still used. I'd be interested to hear more on this though, or see any sort of artwork that depicts it...)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: AKULA on June 29, 2020, 06:08:37 PM
That Charles the Bold figure is a really good sculpt.... it's the one you get free when you order 3 boxes of mounted men-at-arms isn't? I am sorely tempted to buy the boxes just for the figure

Ditto...he has “Lannister” written all over him  ;)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 30, 2020, 08:25:04 AM
Thanks both!

That Charles the Bold figure is a really good sculpt.... it's the one you get free when you order 3 boxes of mounted men-at-arms isn't?

Yup! That's the one! Though the casting was a bit...slightly melted, as a heads up!


Can I ask what colours you used for the horse of the standard bearer with the black and purple flag? I'd like to try that colour out myself...

So I've limited myself to just GW colours for the horses, and just used this guide (it used to be on an instagram post, but it looks like that's private now, but GW have posted it):

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/16/send-in-the-cavalry-a-guide-to-painting-horse-breedsfw-homepage-post-4/

The horse for that particular standard bearer uses just the "Tan" palette in the guide there, but with Agrax Earthshade instead of Seraphim Sepia


I don’t know what it is about plastic horses, but I find it harder to get motivated for building them, than building a dozen foot figures...I just need to be in the right frame of mind

Definitely agree there! Though it's odd, with the plastic horses I tend to find trouble getting the motivation, but with metal ones I'm usually too nervous about the paint chipping off because of the larger surface area!

Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: bluewillow on July 03, 2020, 07:09:02 AM
Great stuff, it is interesting to see the change of the swallow tailed banners, I recently read and count of a captured personal banner that had nothing to do with his armorial colours.

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (29/06, P.8 - Charles the Not-Yet Bold)
Post by: Atheling on July 03, 2020, 11:59:31 AM
Very impressive stuff  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (01/09, P.8 - Charolais Archers Progress)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 01, 2020, 03:19:38 PM
Hi again,

Quick mini-update this time, just because these guys are taking quite a bit longer than I thought they would (and procrastination is a powerful powerful thing!)

I've made a bit more progress on Charles, Comte De Charolais' archer bodyguard, and filled out the first rank of the block of 24 I'm planning

(https://i.imgur.com/gOY1JXx.jpg)

Deciding on a banner to give them took quite a while, seeing as most of the available ones are a tad too late for Montlhéry, either being in the ducal Blue/White, or having an M, alluding to Charles' marriage to Margaret of York (rather than Isabella of Bourbon), so I made do with essentially just doing a big version of the livery badge! Hopefully it's turned out ok!

(https://i.imgur.com/vbgv5uy.jpg)

Another 16 to go!  lol
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (01/09, P.8 - Charolais Archers Progress)
Post by: Charlie_ on September 01, 2020, 05:56:26 PM
Nice work!
So are you also working on some opponents for these Burgundians?
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (01/09, P.8 - Charolais Archers Progress)
Post by: Atheling on September 01, 2020, 08:21:35 PM
They look excellent!  :-* :-* :-*

Montlhery?
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (01/09, P.8 - Charolais Archers Progress)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 01, 2020, 11:46:28 PM
Thanks both!

Montlhery?

Yup! I'm going off of Jean de Haynin and Philippe de Commynes' accounts of the battle, so I think after I've finished off Charles' 'battle' I'll probably add another for the Count of St. Pol's vanguard to round out the bunch!

So are you also working on some opponents for these Burgundians?

I hadn't planned on it (yet) but I could definitely get some more generic levies put together which could be swapped between forces depending on the situation, and then throw in a few Francs-Archers for Louis XI!

Though, to be honest, your Burgundian Succession posts have given me some ideas to branch out into some of the personalities there as well! I've been thinking it might be fun to put together someone to represent the Count of Ravenstein, considering after Mary of Burgundy, he's one of the top claimants for the Duchy, which could lead to some interesting scenarios! (Plus, his livery colours were a carbon copy of Charles' own blue/white, which is definitely convenient!)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (27/09, P.8 - Duke John's Ducal Guard Done!)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 27, 2020, 10:52:57 PM
Hi again!

Another bit of a diversion from Montlhéry, back to 1411 and John the Fearless' campaigns against the Armagnacs!

Way back in February I painted up some test figures for Duke John's "Archers du Corps" to act as his bodyguard both on the battlefield and during his day-to-day (though, in-reality the Archers du Corps functioned more as a sort of secret-service for the Duke as well, being spies and envoys as well as bodyguards). I've finally finished the rest of the unit, so here's an update with the rest of the lads!

To avoid double-posting the research and reasoning, here's the link to the earlier post, with the reference images in, if you wanted to read how I came to the conclusion for the colours, badges and equipment for the archers! https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116321.msg1543953#msg1543953

(https://i.imgur.com/kRGmb3V.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/HsjjbGj.jpg)

Most of the unit have the tri-colour Black-white-green that gets described in Jean de Noident's "Memoires Pour Servir A L'histoire De France Et De Bourgogne," but I wanted to vary it up a little, with some solid-green houppelandes, both with the shoulder 'stripes' described by the Chamberlain. The back-right and front-left of the unit show the striped-sleeves, while the back-left and front-second-from-right are wearing plain solid houppelandes

Each of the archers has the ducal badge of the 'Rabot' on his chest, to show allegiance to the Duke, and the Burgundian faction at-large (as opposed to the Duke of Orléans' rod/bend)

(https://i.imgur.com/TgexALP.jpg)

And each of the archers (aside from the striped-sleeved ones) also has the "Bundle of Arrows" described by the Chamberlain as being part of the 'uniform' of the ducal archers

(https://i.imgur.com/35rXuXm.jpg)

I thought it was interesting that for an Agincourt-era force, the ducal archers actually do have a defined livery, badge and colours, I've not been able to find any other cases of this happening that early in the 15th century (in the region)! At least, not among the French/English side of things!

Seeing as these are the duke's personal guard, I decided to give them his armorial banner, rather than the standard with his emblem (as on his command base), but both are described as being in the field between 1405 and 1419, so either would be valid in this case!

(https://i.imgur.com/tbahfjk.jpg)

And finally here's the duke and his guard together

(https://i.imgur.com/zD1WRaA.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out! I really enjoyed doing the research to put these ones together, there's not really any contemporary visual depiction of the Burgundian ducal guard, so going through text descriptions was a lot of fun!

(Also incidentally, I think I need to get some new lights, my current ones seem to be getting dim on me!)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (27/09, P.8 - Duke John's Ducal Guard Done!)
Post by: Captain Blood on September 28, 2020, 08:32:24 AM
Those are excellent  :-*
Lovely.
I particularly like the use of the shouty head from the Salute freebie archer  :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (27/09, P.8 - Duke John's Ducal Guard Done!)
Post by: AKULA on September 28, 2020, 10:35:11 AM
Those are excellent  :-*
Lovely.
I particularly like the use of the shouty head from the Salute freebie archer  :)


As Richard said, excellent work (also good spot on the shouty archer).

I also really like the command base...am guessing it’s for a particular set of rules?
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (27/09, P.8 - Duke John's Ducal Guard Done!)
Post by: Atheling on September 28, 2020, 11:35:57 AM
Fab stuff  :-* :-* :-*

I'll be reading the other thread with interest later today.  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (27/09, P.8 - Duke John's Ducal Guard Done!)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 28, 2020, 04:08:19 PM
Thanks everyone!

I particularly like the use of the shouty head from the Salute freebie archer  :)
As Richard said, excellent work (also good spot on the shouty archer).

Ah! He's just one of the plastic heads from the Agincourt English sprue, stuck on a French body and blended in with a bit of green-stuff! I don't think I'd have the heart to convert one of the Salute figures!

[/quote]
I also really like the command base...am guessing it’s for a particular set of rules?

Thanks! I don't think I had any particular rules in mind when I put the base together (it's the same sabot base I used for the unarmoured Duke John, but spun round so the figures are in a different configuration), so much as just wanting a bit of a centerpiece for the Duke himself! Though, in retrospect, NMTBH would probably work for HYW era forces without too much being changed, maybe a bit more focus on cavalry, and fewer handgunners!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (27/09, P.8 - Duke John's Ducal Guard Done!)
Post by: Captain Blood on September 28, 2020, 04:12:10 PM

Ah! He's just one of the plastic heads from the Agincourt English sprue, stuck on a French body and blended in with a bit of green-stuff! I don't think I'd have the heart to convert one of the Salute figures!


Is he?! lol
I bought about eight of them off eBay ;)
I must check out the English Agincourt frames again and compare the two pieces. I’m sure I’ve used both of them in various builds for GoT. They look v similar :)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on December 30, 2020, 03:27:58 AM
Hi again!

Another update, and the final one from me for 2020 it seems! (slightly pre-emptive Happy New Year!)

This update's zooming back to the later Burgundians with a character figure to represent (either) Adolph of Cleves, Lord of Ravenstein or his son Philip. The Lords of Ravenstein were a short-lived cadet branch of the Dukes of Cleves, from John I Duke of Cleves, and his wife Mary of Burgundy, the daughter of John the Fearless, rather than daughter of Charles the Bold in this case. By extension, this makes Adolph of Cleves-Ravenstein Philip the Good's nephew, and by pure chance, very high in the line of succession to Burgundy!

Adolph was a pretty active participant in Philip the Good and Charles the Bold's wars, including the Ghent rebellion in 1450, Montlhéry (as described quite nicely by Jean de Haynin) and Charles' later wars, while his son Philip only became involved after Charles' death, fighting against Louis XI on behalf of Mary of Burgundy. Though while Adolph was consistently loyal to Burgundy, Philip had a tendency to chronically switch sides, and ended up fighting for Mary of Burgundy, Maximilian von Habsburg, Flemish rebels against Maximilian, and finally for Louis XII in the Italian Wars

Charlie's thread here on the forum has gotten me hooked on the Burgundian Succession after Charles the Bold's death, and the potential "what if?" scenarios around it. I got quite attached to the idea of "what if Philip of Cleves decided to press his own claim during his abortive rebellion against Maximilian in the late 15th century?" or if Mary and Maximilian both mysteriously died childless, leaving Philip as one of the leading claimants in the succession. Helpfully, post-Montlhéry, the lords of Ravenstein adopt the Burgundian Blue/White (with a red cross) as their own personal livery as well, which is handy for recontextualising a force without needing to paint hundreds of newly liveried figures!  :D

So with that in mind I put together a figure to represent either Adolph or Philip, depending on the context or scenario

Unfortunately, the lords of Cleves-Ravenstein have a fiddly coat of arms! Embedding the arms of John the Fearless within the Cleves-La Marck arms, which made painting the figure a bit of a task, especially on the sleeves!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Blason_NL_Cl%C3%A8ves-Ravestein.svg/545px-Blason_NL_Cl%C3%A8ves-Ravestein.svg.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/cls1Cpq.jpg)

The figure is based on a Perry metal Salisbury figure, with a plume added to the helmet to make him a tad more Burgundian!

(https://i.imgur.com/LzWVa5S.jpg)

And here's a shot of the back with hopefully a clearer look at the heraldry!

(https://i.imgur.com/WMAUGGB.jpg)

Let me know how he's turned out, or if I've got anything wildly inaccurate with my reading up on the lords of Ravenstein!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: MGH on December 30, 2020, 04:09:19 AM
Are you kidding me? Wow, what detail !  I could never paint like that, kudos to you!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: Charlie_ on December 30, 2020, 07:27:31 AM
A simple and effective conversion!
You're a braver man than me to attempt the Ravenstein coat of arms freehand... And you've managed to pull it off well, bravo. There's a reason I keep all my commanders in 'white armour'!

Interestingly just this week I was writing about Philip of Cleves and how he finally surrendered in 1492. I hadn't actually looked too far into what happened to him after that, I was just aware he went to France.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: Atheling on December 30, 2020, 07:40:25 AM
Excellent brushwork Happychappy, especially on that coat of arms!  :o

It causes me a degree of stress at the very though of having to paint it  lol

As usual, excellent work and stellar research  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: Captain Blood on December 30, 2020, 09:30:28 AM
Lovely. Splendid job on that teeny tiny freehand heraldry  :-*
I think that mounted Salisbury is my favourite metal figure from the Perry WOTR range.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: AKULA on December 30, 2020, 09:44:23 AM
Amazing work on the heraldry  :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: Matakakea on December 30, 2020, 02:13:40 PM
When your optician asks what you've been doing to strain your sight so badly just show him this figure  :D Nice work.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: nonsuch on December 30, 2020, 02:33:54 PM
Super job on the Heraldry!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: Warboss Nick on December 30, 2020, 08:03:20 PM
Wow, astonishing work on the livery!  :-*  I always find the perspective of painting it truely daunting, and you really nailed it down to the T.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (30/12, P.9 - Lord of Ravenstein)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on December 31, 2020, 06:36:37 PM
Thanks for the kind words everyone!

When your optician asks what you've been doing to strain your sight so badly just show him this figure  :D Nice work.

 lol I think once I started on the small Burgundy arms in the middle I was like "Oh...I've made a huge mistake haven't I!"

I think that mounted Salisbury is my favourite metal figure from the Perry WOTR range.

Agreed, for me it's either mounted Salisbury or Henry VI oddly enough, just because of conversion potential for other nobles there!

A simple and effective conversion!
Interestingly just this week I was writing about Philip of Cleves and how he finally surrendered in 1492. I hadn't actually looked too far into what happened to him after that, I was just aware he went to France.

The French Wikipedia links a (French) article which says that after 1492, Philip did a few military expeditions on behalf of Louis XII including getting in command of a fleet to Lesbos (which ended in disaster), and later appointed him as governor of Genoa for a couple of years before retiring

https://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_1146-9447_1902_num_5_6_3438_t1_0412_0000_3

He's got an interesting and pretty varied career, just uh....not the most successful of people!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 03, 2021, 04:36:50 PM
Hi again!

It's been a bit of a while but I've finally gotten round to painting up some more Burgundians on the workbench!

About a full year after I posted the first test figures, I've finally gotten round to finishing the rest of Charles the (not yet) Bold's archers-de-corps for his force at Montlhéry! They're now a full unit of 24, though in between them and Antoine's retinue I found myself running out of livery jacketed torsos a couple of times!

(https://i.imgur.com/5Ng95iz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/kQsdUP8.jpg)


And here's Charles' retinue combined with his half-brother Antoine's, to show the different liveries

(https://i.imgur.com/0OoAo64.jpg)

During Montlhéry Charles commanded the centre and Antoine commanded the reserve, so that would leave just the Comte de Saint-Pol in command of the vanguard, though the way his retinue's liveries are described are a little odd, so I might have to think of a way round that!

I hope Charles' unit has turned out ok! And hopefully I'll return to a little more regular of an update schedule!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: Charlie_ on May 04, 2021, 11:27:09 AM
Very smart!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: Atheling on May 04, 2021, 11:52:32 AM
Excellent mate and worth the wait  :-*

What have you got planned next for Montlhery?

Funnily enough, just last night, I was just reading a brief translation of the Les Batailles Oublies battle of Montlhery, July 16, 1465 book someone very kindly did for me about a year ago.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 05, 2021, 03:26:59 AM
Excellent mate and worth the wait  :-*

What have you got planned next for Montlhery?


Thanks! I think next for the Montlhéry figures I'll probably move on to either Louis de Luxembourg's vanguard, the artillery train (featuring another of the many Montlhéry Luxembourgs!), or a few 'generic' units to fill out the numbers a bit and to have some freedom to swap out banners and leaders too!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: Atheling on May 05, 2021, 06:22:01 AM
Thanks! I think next for the Montlhéry figures I'll probably move on to either Louis de Luxembourg's vanguard, the artillery train (featuring another of the many Montlhéry Luxembourgs!), or a few 'generic' units to fill out the numbers a bit and to have some freedom to swap out banners and leaders too!

I look forward to it  8)
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: cardophillipo on May 05, 2021, 11:41:09 AM
Just caught up on this wonderful project. Great work!

Are all the plumes in the Perrys Plastic Mercenaries box?

Cheers

Richard P  :D
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 05, 2021, 04:41:47 PM
Just caught up on this wonderful project. Great work!

Are all the plumes in the Perrys Plastic Mercenaries box?


Thanks!

The plumes for Charles' archers (and the mounted men-at-arms) are from the Perry metal Swiss heads (some of them needed to be patched up with Green stuff though!), Antoine's archers use plumes from Anvil Industries' "Decorative Feathers" set though, if that helps!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (03/05, P.9 - Charles' Archers Completed)
Post by: cardophillipo on May 05, 2021, 06:21:15 PM
Brilliant many thanks 👍
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (12/11, P.10 - 1420s Foot Knights)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on November 12, 2021, 06:28:16 PM
Hi again! It's uh...been a while!

I've been spending the last couple of months chipping away at a big block of Burgundians.In most of the muster rolls of the Burgundian army in the early 15th century, the vast majority of all the troops are men-at-arms (or knights), with archers or other footsoldiers never being more than half of any given engagement. So with that in mind I figured I'd best get to painting!  Originally it started as a block of 12...then 24, and then I somehow ended up painting up the full 48 of them!

The unit is mostly to represent the men-at-arms and knights fighting under Philip the Good in the 1420s and 1430s after the Burgundians largely adopted fighting "in the English style," afoot and amongst the archers. The Burgundians were VERY keen on adopting those tactics, to the point that at Bulgnéville in 1431 an order was put out that every man was to dismount and place his horse a good distance back from the lines, and if any man remounted he would be put to death! I've left specific liveries and badges off of most of the figures so they can be used for men under John the Fearless as well during his own campaigns against the Armagnacs.

(https://i.imgur.com/tigWspl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/qlWN9i5.jpg)

I was a bit indecisive about which knights to include as leaders in the group, seeing as I wanted to keep them somewhat around the same times, geographical areas and battles. So I've split them into the two blocks for roughly the same areas

Group one is led by Claude de Chastellux, Jean de Villiers de L'Isle-Adam and Jean de Luxembourg, grouped roughly around the campaigns in the Loire and the occupation of Paris in 1417
(https://i.imgur.com/8zIeEif.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/b06H4UF.jpg)

Group two was easier to plan around, where it was easier to find battles they were all involved in (Bulgnéville and Cravant). So the leaders there are Antoine de Toulongeon, Antoine de Vergy and Philippe de Ternant
(https://i.imgur.com/JrZ06fE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/UJKWtzU.jpg)


I've mixed in a few men-at-arms with aketons to represent some older or poorer men-at-arms in the unit (or some figures to use for Nicopolis or Othée!)

(https://i.imgur.com/12kajoP.jpg)

And here's a lineup of each of the knights, the banners are removable so they can be mixed and matched depending on the engagement:
(https://i.imgur.com/iAKtH5w.jpg)

Let me know how they've turned out!
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (12/11, P.10 - 1420s Foot Knights)
Post by: Atheling on November 12, 2021, 07:57:58 PM
Splendiferous Happy  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (12/11, P.10 - 1420s Foot Knights)
Post by: Captain Blood on November 13, 2021, 09:42:49 AM
Lovely   :-*
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (12/11, P.10 - 1420s Foot Knights)
Post by: Charlie_ on November 13, 2021, 10:28:49 AM
Very nice, well done on the freehand heraldry!

Mixing the metal figures into the plastic set works really well, always good to add more variety like that.
Title: Re: Happy Chappy's Jaunt to Burgundy! - (12/11, P.10 - 1420s Foot Knights)
Post by: HappyChappy439 on November 14, 2021, 04:32:05 PM
Thanks everyone!

Very nice, well done on the freehand heraldry!

Mixing the metal figures into the plastic set works really well, always good to add more variety like that.

Thanks! I definitely ran into a few times where I was worried I was running out of poses with the arms/bodies in the plastic kits, so the metal figures definitely helped there!  :D