Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Railway Wargaming => Topic started by: leadfool on June 16, 2009, 07:51:56 AM
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Fellow LAF members, I am heavily invested in 1:48 scale vehicles for my 28mm figures. My latest vehicle is another of the Matchbox Rolls Royce armored cars. Matchbox has always been indeterminate about scale. I think it is 1:48 but who knows.
I have a number of Solido, Vereem, and Museum 1;48 scale vehicles. Mostly WWII but many are useful for colonial/WWI.
However, I can't find a number of vehicles that I might want in 1:48. Then I find "Company B" which seems an answer to my prayers BUT they are in 1;56 scale ie. "S" scale for model railroading. They have a number of vehicles that look great and have that very cool armored train.
Does anyone own both a company b rolls royce armored car and a Matchbox one, and could they take a picture of them side by side?
Does anyone have any thoughts on how the scales fit together, say could you run the S scale train but have the vehicles in 1:48?
Any thoughts would be appreciated
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the only real problem is if you have the same vehicle in different scale, it can look odd then. The train should work with your existing vehicles but you'll probably have problems with the armoured car. I don't own either version so I can't be more help with that though.
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Warning: S scale is 1:64 not 1:56.
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Great now there is 1/65 1/56 and 1/48. I have also found vehicles in 1/43. Company B says they are 1/56 scale experts and someone else said their train is "S" scale.
I guess my two real question are;
Can I use the Company B stuff with matchbox rolls royce armored cars.
And are Matchbox armored cars really 1:48.
But any insight into scale is appreciated.
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I believe "S" scale is different depending on where you are in the world - just to be awkward I suppose.
I use Matchbox armoured cars but do not have any others to compare. I also do not have the train but think it would work admirably alongside.
Its an oft repeated subject with many differing opinions but the defining thing for me is "does it look right?" You cannot "scale" wargames figures - period. Take a head and scale it up and you will get different results to the arms, legs, height, waist, hands, weapons etc. etc.
Figures are anatomically incorrect, why?, because they look right.
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I always find this useful:
Bungle on train scales:
Right I had it explained to me by a bloke at work very well. British train engines are tiny compared to European and American ones.. its all due to the way the tracks were laid and tunnels dug.
So when toy trains started out if the same track was used bristish engines had to be made bigger to fit the motors in than they should have been at the right scale. Hence the muck up now.
British O gauge is 1/43... American is 1/48
00 is 1/76... 20mm
HO is 1/87
British TT is 1/100... other TT is 1/120
British N is 1/144 (?) American and European are 1/160.
S gauge is 1/64 not often used in the UK
Z is 1/220
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Great now there is 1/65 1/56 and 1/48. I have also found vehicles in 1/43. Company B says they are 1/56 scale experts and someone else said their train is "S" scale.
I guess my two real question are;
Can I use the Company B stuff with matchbox rolls royce armored cars.
And are Matchbox armored cars really 1:48.
But any insight into scale is appreciated.
Solido military range is actually 1/50. As is the Corgi WW2 range.
Matchbox '1/48' series actually scale out between 1/48 and 1/43.
I believe the Company B train is '28mm' but the track used is American S scale (1/64).
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My ears are burning ;)
Matchbox models of yesteryear Y-38-1
1920 ROLLS-ROYCE ARMOURED CAR
Scale 1:48
http://www.matchbox.3kom.ru/data/yy-38-1.htm?e
RedZed is right about the company B train although of course the track could be either 4'8" or 5'2" depending on German or Russian track. Neither S or O are correct for either, but its a lot easier than making up your own track to the correct scale.
So.... the Company B RR will be smaller than the Matchbox one
if you follow the link above and have a look at the other cars you can get an idea of what will fit..... 1/50 to 1/46 I suppose will go with your 1/48th stuff with little notice.
But really... if it looks right it'll do, very few of us have seen these old vehicles in real life to compare them.
(Scale nasty head on - 1/56 is the right scale though) ;) :D
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I had 1/48 vehicles for my 28mm, but sold them all off for 1/56. I feel 1/56 looks with 28mm figures.
I personally wouldn't mix 1/48 and 1/56 on the table.
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My take on the whole scale thing:
http://mainly28s.com/how_to/measuring_scale.html (http://mainly28s.com/how_to/measuring_scale.html)
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Thanks you , as always a wealth of info. I was always curous how (and why) 1/43 even exists.
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I had 1/48 vehicles for my 28mm, but sold them all off for 1/56. I feel 1/56 looks with 28mm figures.
I personally wouldn't mix 1/48 and 1/56 on the table.
When gaming WW2 I went the other waty when Corgi released their tanks, at the time only Westwind produced 1/56th (actually 1/60th) and had a period when their production line stopped so I figured what the heck.
Anyway then Corgi stopped-NO HANOMAG FerChrisake! and I regretted it every since then selling off all my figures in the end (not solely due to this mind you)
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Thanks you , as always a wealth of info. I was always curous how (and why) 1/43 even exists.
1/43 is the British O gauge for model trains, so cars are done to match
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well, here my approach
although figures might very well fit the accurate 28mm 1/56 scale, the proportions are always very different
usually the heads, hands and weapons will be overscale, since they are the main focus
so there never is a correct scaling
apart from the fact that the human size varies a lot, you will simply have to make a decision about the looks of Your figures
as to the vehicles...
here an example
I am currently working on a rather insane railway project for Wargaming and have done much research on that topic
neither S or 0 Gauge will fit, and you will never be able to provide the correct tracks for any region or time unless you make your own tracks (tracks range from 65-200 cm! even today, spanish tracks are wider inspite any european norm)
a chap of mine once criticized the size of my tracks, stating that it would be impossible to commit suicide by lying across the tracks on 0 Gauge (32mm) for a 28 mm figure, so the scale is wrong
my answer - bad luck for spaniards then, since theit track is 1,72 m life size and the average "dego" surely lies under this height - so they would have to choose another way of suicide...
you already get the hint that I chose 0 gauge, for the following reasons:
1. the nicely sculpted company B is mounted on S gauge (22mm), but it is an elevated scale
meaning that they simply made it taller. The result is that most period artillery pieces are too wide to be loaded on a flatcar! (no discussion here, I tested it myself) not to talk about sandbags or vehicles
Company B did not even bother to make them wider to pretend a narrow gauge, which would have been a suitable compromise.(shame on You...) And personally, i dislike the civilian range for looking even toyisher than toys...
in addition, the wheels are poorly cast, meaning you will have to overwork them a lot, and they don't even turn! So you either want to use your train in a static role or you want to drag a 5 component armored train made of resin and metal along the tracks without turning wheels...
(sorry Company B - take it for a personal review)
so with no ready made models in sight, the only alternative would have been to build it all from scratch (even I am not that insane) or compromise on the detail to make scratchbuilding reasonable
again no choice for me so -
2. Make it affordable - there is a lot of stuff available in 0 gauge (and S too, but not in Europe), and it is not that expensive if you have a sharp knife and two right hands. Besides, the width of a car is around 6 cm - ideally if You want to show a tank transport e.g. - the correct scale Sherman through Panther tank will fit.
search ebay for 0 gauge railway models and playtrains - I recommend Faller Hittrain - resonable detailing and rather cheap. Don't try to hunt for an Atlas or Lionel engine, you don't want to spend 500€
Yes, the track is that much too wide as the S gauge track is too narrow - so use larger models for the suicide vignette!
the conclusion is: You will have to decide: if You want to stick to the Company B standard (and maybe other Manufacturers will adopt it) you will have to use smaller artillery and vehicles or convert them
or You decide for 0 gauge
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I always find the scale arguement amusing... we happily fudge groundscales and weapon ranges, but beware the gamer that mixes his vehicle scales. :D
As far as visual appeal goes I'd say you'd get away with 'Big' tanks better than you would smaller vehicles. A 1/48 Hanomag looks quite roomy against 28mm figures, whereas you look at the 1/56th version and wonder if there's room for your section to squeeze in without attempting a Guinness World Record.
As said before, providing you don't mix different scales of the same vehicle, it should (mostly) look ok. Just keep an eye out for the scale police. ;)
Having said that, we are often our own worst critics.. I've scoured e-bay for the 'right' scale aircraft, when I could have got away with 'near enough' ::)
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I own both the Matchbox Rolls Royce AC and a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost. The AC is definitely 1/48, while the other is 1/56 or 1/60
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I share your scale agony. I am also full invested with loads of 1/48 Matchbox, Solido and plastic kits. I also have Corgi 1/50 vehicles that cause no problems when compared to 1/48. I have also been drooling over all the 1/56 stuff but resisted so far. I look forward hear more about your findings. Last week I tried to defend my 1/48 faith by visiting an armour museum, photographing my 172 cm tall son by the WW2 tanks to hopefully find some relief. I was actually amazed of how big the Sherman tanks looked. I hope to make a separate post of this later on.
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Cripes, so much controversy over models...
1/48 will work in a pinch for just about anything, especially if you already have a good number of models you've invested in.
Or you can do like me, and stick all your 1.48 models in a display case, and make 1/56 ones!
1/56 scale is pretty close to the correct scale for 28mm figures...and since the same sculptor that does a lot of our 28mm figures, sculpted the rolls royces, I think I can trust him. There are always going to be edge cases where the scale is fudged a bit, because the scale does not look right. This pretty much has to do with perception. Since if you actually stand next to a real car, you'll see that 1/64 matchbox cars are pretty close to correct for true some scale 28mm figs, but they just don't look right (and 1/50 or 1/43 feels much better). 1/48 is way too big for smaller sized 28mm figs, and you if had any true 1/48 figs you could see that. But..bigger models always will look a bit more comfortable and feel right...since that is what folks are use too. Also, the more bulky 28mm figs look fine in either scale model on a table. It's only if you work with the actual vehicle in question, and sculpt both crew and vehicle that you start to see the differences between the scales. I've mastered models in both scales..it's only a slight 10% difference.
As for the trains, they are a wargame compatible scale, and not really a "scale" model. They are made to create the general look of the model to provide a good game experience, and be compatible with most of the models we sell (as well as Brigade Games) If we made a true scale 1/56 train, no one could afford it, and the engine alone would have too many parts to classify it as a wargame model. So the model is a compromise of cost, size and feasibility. Which must be working since I can't keep either set in stock for longer than 24 hours. For those who are really finicky about true scale trains with rolling stock...your in luck, because we have a line of exact 1/56 armored WW2 trains casting now with more masters in progress. And they are true beasts of resin and metal.
(http://homepage.mac.com/brentdietrich/MBV2.JPG)
We are not sure anyone will buy them, but they are coming soon, barreling down a track near you....
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wow
Your soviet train looks really amazing, congratulations
not that I wouldn't like the RCW armoured train
and of course I understand a wargame model has to be affordable
not to speak of not taking too much space on gaming table
to these issues Your models do respond very well
but not to others unfortunately
regarding how detailed and authentic even some toy railway models look, it is hardly understandable how models made of resin and metal, THE material to perform outstandingly in the detail and realism division, can make such a poor impression
when it comes to fully armoured components, of course not much detail is needed, but as soon as one looks at the more civilian versions....
the axle distance e.g.
or the fact that the wheels.....
and the steam engine....
all in all, only an impression of railway models, and a poor one
but never mind, if it sells, that is the best argument...
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For working out scales the following might prove helpful, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_figure_%28gaming%29
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scale_model_sizes
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I may have missed any mention of this little item in the discussion about O scale, but just to confuse you even more... As someone said, the British versions of various scales are due to the smaller size of the real locomotives and they all bought the good quality German motors for their models. Now O scale is not only 1:43 or 1:48, it is actually 1:43 (mainly UK), 1:45 (most of Continental Europe) and 1:48 (mainly the US)! :-)
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I always find the scale arguement amusing... we happily fudge groundscales and weapon ranges, but beware the gamer that mixes his vehicle scales. :D
Haha, so true... ^^ this :D
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In the interest of full disclosure I am the partner at Company B that pushed for producing the armored train. Further I admit that I was motivated purely by the desire to have one for my own gaming table.
Initial research concluded that the trains purpose built in the latter part of the interwar period where simply too large for gaming. It was the length of the individual cars that was the factor. However, trains built in the early and mid period were crafted in various railway yards and used existing carriages and materials on hand. These would be suitable.
We chose to replicate a sample of early armored train cars and scaled them be compatable in size to our 1/56 vehicles. The armored engine was a duplicate of an engine displayed in a Russian museum. The overiding factor on size was that hey look right with our vehicles and 25-28mm figures.
The next decision was what to do about track. We went looking for a commerical model railway product. The reason was simple, we could cast and sell track for the train at $6-$9 a foot or buy it from a model railway supplier at half that or less. HO gauge was just to narrow, O gauge was much too wide, but S gauge looked just right.
So for the record, the Company B armored train is advertised as 1/56 scale because it's sized to work with 1/56 vehicles and 25-28mm figures. The track it runs on is S gauge because it looks right. Hopefully that clears up any problems about scale and gauge.
We are very precise in keeping our veicles to scale but in the case of the armored train it was necesssary to take the license that we as gamers take with terrain and buildings.
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We are very precise in keeping our veicles to scale but in the case of the armored train it was necesssary to take the license that we as gamers take with terrain and buildings.
Sounds like a very sensible approach!
For my own part I will probably try to get an armored train or two later on - maybe not primarily as a gaming piece, but because I'm just enamored (enarmored?) by trains!
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The overiding factor on size was that hey look right with our vehicles and 25-28mm figures.
but S gauge looked just right.
So for the record, the Company B armored train is advertised as 1/56 scale because it's sized to work with 1/56 vehicles and 25-28mm figures. The track it runs on is S gauge because it looks right.
We are very precise in keeping our veicles to scale but in the case of the armored train it was necesssary to take the license that we as gamers take with terrain and buildings.
All very good points, and what I like to hear and see! :)
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My vehicle collection is an odd mixture of Lledo and Matchbox, with a few randoms thrown in for good measure. My brother (Wirelizard) has some Models of Yesteryear, but we found them too big compared to the figures.
Also, an extra inch may not look like much (ask any guy), but on a smaller gaming table like we use for .45A, that extra space starts mattering a great deal.
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Sorry for the confusion. The Company B train runs on S Gauge track, it is not S Scale. It is a nominal 1/56 scale.
Bruce
Company B