Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Riquez on April 30, 2019, 06:47:39 AM
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I am having issues with assembled metal miniatures parts (swords, arms, backpacks etc) falling off after a few weeks; it seems the "superglue" isn't holding.
I prefer ones with minimal assembly (preferably none) but nonetheless after a week or two i go to pick one up & the hand+sword will fall off.
I am wondering if there are any specific tips to help stop this?
The glue I am using is "cemedine 3000 rxf" which specifically mentions it is for glueing metal models, so it should be ok.
Figures are cleaned with soapy water/toothbrush, dried. I use a metal etching primer (clear, lacquer based) & the following day a fine white base coat spray on miniatures & parts. Assemble with superglue before painting.
In some cases I might paint the parts separately & assembly near the end - for example when the part would make painting armour etc behind it very difficult - but I try to leave the bonding area unpainted & use a small file to make it rough if possible too.
Where I live is very high humidity (sub-tropical island) so I am wondering if this has some effect ~ or perhaps it's my method or I should try another glue.
Just looking for your valued advice - thanks!
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Almost certainly the humidity does not help. One trick is to score the surfaces to be glued with a scalpel first to give the glue extra 'handholds' to key into. It is why most modellers use mini drills and pins when attaching limbs etc. You'd probably be better off by switching to using a 2 part 5 min epoxy instead. The trick is to mix just enough for the job and have a jig ready or the patience to hold/support the pieces in contact for the allotted time.
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Yup, scoring the surface (in a cross-hatch pattern) is a definite bonus but not always easy with a small gluing area. Personally I put nothing on the metal - no primer or anything - before gluing, otherwise you're not gluing metal to metal, you're gluing primer to primer. After the glued bit has set, I usually put a little bit more glue on for luck with the tip of a cocktail stick, and allow it to run into the join.
But yeah, changes in heat and humidity can weaken glue, there's just no way around it.
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If heat 7 humidity are the problem, why not try putting the freshly glued
figures in a plastic box & stick that in the fridge (take them out the next morning).
+1 to the making sure you are gluing metal to metal & not primer to primer.
I would scrape off the primer (as well as some scoring) before gluing.
I tend to first 'spot weld' the joint with a super glue gel, then (when that is good & set)
I dribble liquid super glue into the joint (to re-enforce the joint)
Another thing that can help is (where possible) adjust the weapon/arm so that
the glued bit is supported. e.g. Instead of waving a musket (all the pressure is
on the very small glue spot) have it resting on a shoulder (with a dribble of
super glue to provide extra support)
A long time ago I followed the example of the late & great Peter Guilder, &
soldered pin bayonets onto Napoleonic muskets. My eyes & hands are not up to
that level of skill anymore, but flattened pins for swords & long pins for lances
will work & are very robust.
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Have you washed the miniatures first?
Some metal and resin miniatures are coated in a release agent that will mess with both glue and paint.
Putting freshly superglued miniatures into a closed container (doesnt have to be airtight) can result in them being covered in a thin rough layer of... glue fumes?
I've had this happen with both loctite and a cheap off brand glue but I dont know if its universal.
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Try using a two part epoxy. I have had problems with superglue when gluing plastic to metal but not metal to metal (or plastic to plastic). As previously mentioned score the surfaces first and make sure they don't have paint on them. You have already washed them - but make sure you haven't left any soap residue behind.
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I use Krazy Glue all the time, and have never had an issue with things just falling off.
Seems like it would be a simple thing to just try another glue. Can't hurt anyway.
It may not be the brand, but maybe that specific bottle/tube has an issue of some sort.
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I use Krazy Glue all the time
KraGle !!!! :o :o :o lol
http://en.brickimedia.org/wiki/Kragle
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I am having issues with assembled metal miniatures parts (swords, arms, backpacks etc) falling off after a few weeks; it seems the "superglue" isn't holding.
I prefer ones with minimal assembly (preferably none) but nonetheless after a week or two i go to pick one up & the hand+sword will fall off.
I am wondering if there are any specific tips to help stop this?
The glue I am using is "cemedine 3000 rxf" which specifically mentions it is for glueing metal models, so it should be ok.
Figures are cleaned with soapy water/toothbrush, dried. I use a metal etching primer (clear, lacquer based) & the following day a fine white base coat spray on miniatures & parts. Assemble with superglue before painting.
In some cases I might paint the parts separately & assembly near the end - for example when the part would make painting armour etc behind it very difficult - but I try to leave the bonding area unpainted & use a small file to make it rough if possible too.
Where I live is very high humidity (sub-tropical island) so I am wondering if this has some effect ~ or perhaps it's my method or I should try another glue.
Just looking for your valued advice - thanks!
A lot of people has already given sage advice so sorry if I reiterate:
-pinning is always the best solution for which ever glue you choose, Obvioulsy, pinning is not always an option but it is worth developing yours skills and confidence in using pining.
-use superglue for where snug bonds with large contact areas and litte stress on both parts. The thinner the layer of glue the stronger the bond.
- 5 min 2-part expoxy is less brittle and has slightly voscous properties (if blended with the right amount of hardener). This means it will endure more stress. It also has filling properties, which means it can be applied relatively thickly without reducing durability. This means it iit is the most appropriate choice of glue when fitting pins and slots as the fit rarely is 100%.
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I'd have to second the above comments about drilling and pinning figures.
I do that with pretty much everything anymore, from plastics to metal figures. Get yourself a nice pin vise and an assortment of drill bits, some brass rod (steel is hard to cut!), and you're in business with pretty much any superglue. I've had figures drop/fly off my army board, land three or four feet down, and still remain intact.
NOT say though, a big 54mm sized dragon...........made of metal. Even with all the multiple pins in him, sometimes several per joint........
Poor guy EXPLODED when he hit the floor!!!
Sniff.........
:o
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Thank you everyone for the sage advice.
I will get some epoxy & make sure the joints are scored /primer free. (I was doing this, but probably not very enthusiastically.)
I have ordered a jewellers hand drill too.
I think I will give the gel superglue a try out also as that's something i can easily acquire locally.
:-*
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Thank you everyone for the sage advice.
I will get some epoxy & make sure the joints are scored /primer free. (I was doing this, but probably not very enthusiastically.)
I have ordered a jewellers hand drill too.
I think I will give the gel superglue a try out also as that's something i can easily acquire locally.
:-*
Two-part epoxy glue is readilly avaiable in hardware stores.
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With the epoxy, make sure you put a little more of the hardener in than the instructions say. It means you will have less time (a few minutes) to work with the glue before it starts setting hard. But too many times I’ve followed the manufacturers’ instructions with a 50:50 mix, only to find I hadn’t put quite 50% hardener in - and it never goes off. You are left with a horrible gummy mess of glue which will not set fully hard and eventually needs to be wiped off with acetone or turpentine, which can make a right mess of the model concerned.
Epoxy is the best and most reliable for sticking metal to metal. But you have to get the mix right. And it doesn’t provide an instant bond. You have to leave it to harden - which can take a few minutes, a few hours, or never, depending on the mix you’ve used. So you can’t just stick (say) an unsupported arm on. It will just fall off again before the epoxy hardens and sets. So it needs careful handling ;)
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Just a brief add:
Not all gel super glues are the same. In the U.S., I use Gorilla glue superglue. It claims to be "impact tough" due to some additive to increase it's impact resistance. I have found this to be very much the case - I do much less pinning than I used to without problems.
That said, I am an epoxy fan and tend to use is much more than my gaming friends.
Martin
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+1 on scoring/hatching, pinning with metal rod.
Some glues and their ability to work deteriorates over time. Some cans of Revell's miniature glue has that problem. I haven't had it myself thus far, but maybe also check the date on the glue. Might help!
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Another technique to consider when using CA - in addition to the careful preparation of the parts already stressed - is to sprinkle some Deluxe Materials' Roket (sic) Powder onto the joint after gluing. Baking powder may work too, though the Roket Powder is very finely ground, and easy to apply via the nozzle.
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just spotted this link on the Popular Science website - link (https://www.popsci.com/best-glue-adam-savage)
His book "Every Tool's a Hammer" has just been released - it's on the various amazon sites
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........ though the Roket Powder is very finely ground, and easy to apply via the nozzle.
According to the MSDS, the Roket material contains n n-dimethyl-p-toluidine which is a known carcinogen. The baking soda may not be as strong but is a lot more forgiving.
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With the epoxy, make sure you put a little more of the hardener in than the instructions say. It means you will have less time (a few minutes) to work with the glue before it starts setting hard. But too many times I’ve followed the manufacturers’ instructions with a 50:50 mix, only to find I hadn’t put quite 50% hardener in - and it never goes off. You are left with a horrible gummy mess of glue which will not set fully hard and eventually needs to be wiped off with acetone or turpentine, which can make a right mess of the model concerned.
Epoxy is the best and most reliable for sticking metal to metal. But you have to get the mix right. And it doesn’t provide an instant bond. You have to leave it to harden - which can take a few minutes, a few hours, or never, depending on the mix you’ve used. So you can’t just stick (say) an unsupported arm on. It will just fall off again before the epoxy hardens and sets. So it needs careful handling ;)
Why does it sound like you're suggesting a healthy dose of patience is involved?? >:( That's in short supply around here let me tell you! lol
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just spotted this link on the Popular Science website - link (https://www.popsci.com/best-glue-adam-savage)
His book "Every Tool's a Hammer" has just been released - it's on the various amazon sites
That was a pretty good review.
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get a soldering iron, the correct solder and the correct flux and melt the parts together.
practice on a dozen figures and you'll never go back.
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I agree with most of the above.
I do agree that putting superglued figures in a closed box might cause the fumes to settle on the figure as a white fuzz. Anyone who suggested that has not been watching CSI ^___^.
I have superglued figures then reinforced the join with milliput or greenstuff (also fills in any gaps).
Due to my inept drill and pin technique, I do use another method. I drill a fine (0.4mm) hole in both parts. I drill quite deep. I then open one of the holes up to 1-1.5mm diameter but only to about a half of the depth. I then cut some 0,4mm rod to fit. I glue the rod into the part with the 0.4mm hol. I then mix a small quantity of greenstuff to fit in the 1-1.5mm hole. The greenstuff and the larger diameter hole allows me to adjust the location of the parts. Once that is set I then flood the join wth thin superglue to hold it in place.
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get a soldering iron, the correct solder and the correct flux and melt the parts together.
practice on a dozen figures and you'll never go back.
You're a brave man, zed.
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With a view to repairing damaged figures, particularly weapons, I bought a soldering iron some years ago, and subsequently some solder designed for white metal figures, but didn't know what flux was required, so am yet to use them. In truth, I'm still traumatised by melting figures on my one attempt with a borrowed iron in my teens, and am far from sure I'll ever get past it. I now understand, of course, that the melting point of the solder has to be less than that of the parts to be soldered, but even so I can't help thinking the result will be a pool of molten metal, and quite possibly serious burns.
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According to the MSDS, the Roket material contains n n-dimethyl-p-toluidine which is a known carcinogen. The baking soda may not be as strong but is a lot more forgiving.
Thank you for this. Just wondering, should I use the rest of the bottle....?
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With a view to repairing damaged figures, particularly weapons, I bought a soldering iron some years ago, and subsequently some solder designed for white metal figures, but didn't know what flux was required, so am yet to use them. In truth, I'm still traumatised by melting figures on my one attempt with a borrowed iron in my teens, and am far from sure I'll ever get past it. I now understand, of course, that the melting point of the solder has to be less than that of the parts to be soldered, but even so I can't help thinking the result will be a pool of molten metal, and quite possibly serious burns.
You do need a temperature controlled soldering iron and low melt solder.
Saying that, a friend of mine repaired a number of Platoon 20 figures for me using a 25W iron.
Beware of flux, some will eat your paint, your figure or your lungs!
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Thanks. I did wonder about the power of the iron. I've seen some on eBay with variable temperature - a transformer, I suppose - but was worried by the suspiciously cheap price (less than £15) and the voltage (they were Chinese, probably not compatible with UK sockets). I asked the seller for clarification, which was promised, but....well, they're busy, I'm sure.
Until I'm confident about this and the flux I'm staying clear.
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Keep an eye on the model railway press as they often have articles on soldering white metal kits (ad theirs are a lot more expensive than ours).
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Thanks, I'll do that.
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KraGle !!!! :o :o :o lol
http://en.brickimedia.org/wiki/Kragle
Excellent !
https://media.giphy.com/media/3jiLt1aBGfF37ZmK8a/giphy.gif (https://media.giphy.com/media/3jiLt1aBGfF37ZmK8a/giphy.gif)
For better gluing , i use a mix of Superglue and Neoprene (Pattex black/yellow tub).
You'll get a chimical chain reaction fixing the 2 pieces together instantly.
better to drill and pin arms/head on the body too
;)
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I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned superglue in combination with Green Stuff yet!
I learned this trick from a gamer friend, over a decade ago: Take a small blob of Green Stuff, with an ever so small bias towards the yellow part in this case, and put it between the two parts you want to stick together. Make sure you add a drop of superglue (best would be the gel version; I highly prefer it over the thin type) first to the side you initially place it on.
Then add some superglue to the other part and press the parts firmly together until you can release the parts, and presto.
You might have to cut away the excess Green Stuff after it has dried, but the bond will be super strong.
What this method does, is provide your glue a perfectly flush surface to adhere to; the green stuff simply eliminates each and every gap. I do recommend still scoring the metal surfaces of your parts beforehand though; the more grip the glue and Green stuff have, the better!
Of course, there is no substitute for pinning all parts, but I've found that there are miniature lines (I'm looking at you Infinity!) that have such small parts that they're impossible to pin because of ridiculous fiddliness. And in such cases, the above method may be of great help.
Also; try using your glue in the early morning, when temperatures have not risen as much as in the afternoon or evening.
Oh; and change glue brands; this might be the key. Superficially they're all the same compound, but in practice, I've noticed there really is quite a difference, so try and find a brand that does what you want. I personally use Bison or Pattex Gel Superglue.
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I've had poor results with the glue and greenstuff combination.
The bond appears fine at first, but after a few months the arms start falling off even with delicate handling.
I dont know if its the consistency of my green stuff, the brand of glue, the humidity/climate in my house or some other factor.
I mention the humidity because the green stuff is all dried up and crumbly, when the arms fall off.
I've tried thin super glue and gel, both loctite and off brand.
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I know that super glue bonds preferentially with water (hence the treatment for spills and accidents), hence the problem in high humidity.
@Daothar - I have not tried that method.