Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Ignatieff on May 22, 2019, 11:34:39 PM
-
Does anyone have any army lists for this battle? Or at the very least for the Venetians? I’d also appreciate any info on Venetian infantry - weaponry in particular. Thanks Steve
-
Does anyone have any army lists for this battle? Or at the very least for the Venetians? I’d also appreciate any info on Venetian infantry - weaponry in particular. Thanks Steve
History & Uniforms #1– November 2015: Captured Ensigns at the Battle of Agnadello - 1509 by Massimo Predonzani https://www.amazon.com/History-Uniforms-GB-Bruno-Mugnai-ebook/dp/B0182FF3B0/ref=sr_1_28?qid=1558582501&refinements=p_27%3ABruno+Mugnai&s=digital-text&sr=1-28&text=Bruno+Mugnai
History & Uniforms #2– December 2015: The Battle of Agnadello – 14th May 1509 by Massimo Predonzani https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019CSRT90/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i3
You might be still be able to get issues of this sadly defunct e-magazine by contacting Bruno Mugnai https://www.facebook.com/pg/HistoryandUniforms/about/?ref=page_internal (https://www.facebook.com/pg/HistoryandUniforms/about/?ref=page_internal) - it's how I purchased the Siege of Florence special - or the Amazon Kindle versions.
-
Brilliant. Many thanks!
-
Argh! Neither are for sale on those links. Not even the kindle version. The search goes on....
-
The information I have was originally put together as a scenario for DBR. The Venetians had a number of militia pike units, plus professional mercenary Romandiole pike units. They also fielded units of gendarmes, stradiots and skirmishing arquebusiers and crossbow.
-
This information is from Peter Sides’ DBR scenario booklet, ‘Renaissance Battles’ volume one:
Gendarmes - one very large unit of 1500 plus a smaller unit of 200
Venetian pike - three units each of approx 3500 pike and 1500 crossbows
Romandiole pike - 3000
Italian skirmish infantry - armed with arquebus/crossbow 2000
Stradioti - 3000
Medium artillery - unfortunately only given as two models, so probably between 12 and 20 actual pieces
-
Cheers Leman
-
Argh! Neither are for sale on those links. Not even the kindle version. The search goes on....
He never responded? Might not have been via Facebook, since I'm not registered, but I do have the email address acquired from somewhere in 2017.
-
and that link as dead....any help gratefully received, thanks!
-
+1 for the DBR Scenario book - a great little resource!
-
Got the mags. And yes will
Look at DBR
-
This information is from Peter Sides’ DBR scenario booklet, ‘Renaissance Battles’ volume one:
Gendarmes - one very large unit of 1500 plus a smaller unit of 200
Venetian pike - three units each of approx 3500 pike and 1500 crossbows
Romandiole pike - 3000
Italian skirmish infantry - armed with arquebus/crossbow 2000
Stradioti - 3000
Medium artillery - unfortunately only given as two models, so probably between 12 and 20 actual pieces
I've reservations about so many crossbows, as lists using Oman and Taylor as a resource, tend to generalize and penalize Italians with obsolescence - http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=177500 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=177500). The Brisighelli of Romagna were in the first column and were marching away from the battle. The valiant resistance was by Venetian militia who happened to wear red and white stockings, derived from the Governor of Alviano's livery, and were mistaken for troops from Romagna.
Pages 14 and 15 from the History & Uniforms article:
The French victory at Agnadello marked the first and heaviest defeat for Venice. According to historians, the two armies were roughly equal in number but not in the quality of troops. Each side’s infantry numbered 20,000 men, but King Louis XII’s army included 7,500 veteran Swiss mercenaries. By contrast, the Venetians fielded 10,000 Italian mercenaries (provisionati) with 10,000 ordinanze or cernide, a peasant militia recruited in the Serenissima’s domains. Obviously, the militia was not uniformly disciplined or trained. The French cavalry numbered between 2,300 and 3,000 – the larger number appears in the transalpine sources. These were considered the best in Europe and outnumbered the 1,800 Venetian heavy horsemen. Venice’s light cavalry provided its only numerical advantage, with more than 4,000 horse archers and Dalmatian irregulars (stradiotti) against 3,000 French.
The Battle of Agnadello, also called Ghiaradadda, only involved part of the opposing armies. Each side marched in column towards the village of Pandino from different directions when the Venetian rearguard encountered the French vanguard near Agnadello. Because of the considerable distance between the head and end of the columns, every unit did not participate in the battle. Under the command of Niccolo Orsini, Count of Pitigliano, the Venetian army was divided into four formations or colonnelli. Only the third and fourth colonnelli were involved in the fighting. The chronicler Marin Sanudo accurately reports the Venetian army’s composition. Concerning the fourth colonnello, he states: “the men-atarms were 440, led by the governor Bartolomeo d'Alviano, second in command of the army, then there were 200 to 300 light horses and 7,000 foot soldiers”. These forces largely comprised of mercenaries and militiamen. Captain Pietro del Monte commanded 2,200 provisionati infantrymen.
At least one thousand of his troops were mercenary soldiers: 300 from Giacomo della Sassetta, 620 under Turchetto da Lodi, and another 300 from Pelegnino della Bandera, who took the place of the Albanian Colonel Mora. The brave Saccoccio da Spoleto commanded another corps of 1,720 mercenary soldiers. These included 570 men from his own company, 250 German mercenaries led by a certain Todeschino, and 900 infantrymen from Vicenza, probably militia, commanded by Giacomo da Ravenna. The cernide of Friuli and Padua provided another 3,000 militiamen, 1,500 from each region. A distinguished combatant at the Battle of Cadore, Girolamo Granchio of Mantua, led the militiamen from Friuli. A Greek, Captain Gregheto, led the Paduan Militiamen.
-
Completely agree re the inaccuracy of the crossbow numbers. I am currently reading Mallett and Hale's excellent "Military organisation of a Renaissance State, Venice 1400 to 1617' which provides direct evidence of the advanced state of handgun use in Venice's armies. By 1509 crossbows were mainly used in sieges. I might have one unit on the table for colour's sake, but the majority of missile infantry would be handgunners
-
Which demonstrates that if you post a bit of WRG simplification it will inspire those who really know to come out of the woodwork. Thanks chaps, as I have far more arquebusiers than crossbows. Now I have a question: the Furioso list shows Italian states only fielding skirmish crossbow and arquebus, whereas the much more complex lists in FoGR have some Italian states able to field both crossbow and arquebus as shot units; who is more likely to be correct? Personally I would like to be able to field both massed missile units and skirmishers in Italian armies. I also want to field spear and pavise troops which I’m sure were certainly fielded by Italian armies in the earlier part of the Italian Wars.
-
Oooh. Dunno. Haven’t got that far in the book yet! lol lol lol. But thank you for the WRG stuff, still very useful.
-
I've also been wary of the number of crossbows in that list.
Although I don't have evidence to support it, other than the inventories I've seen (in previous threads here and elsewhere) quoted for arquebus in Venice by this time, I would tend towards arquebus with the pike and not that many (1:7 max) at that. This was the Venetian's big experiment at 'modern pike warfare' using 'citizen pikemen' (rather than Swiss / German mercenaries) so I'm guessing they followed the Swiss / Landsknecht model of 1:10 shot to pike. After it failed, thinking Italian pikemen unlucky (Oman), they went back to hiring mercenaries to fulfil that role.
The French (their 3000 Gascons at Agnadello), on the other hand, definitely fielded crossbows and didn't abandon it until much later (possibly as late as 1525).
-
Argh! Neither are for sale on those links. Not even the kindle version. The search goes on....
I just downloaded the Agnadello magazine for Kindle a few minutes ago.
-
I just downloaded the Agnadello magazine for Kindle a few minutes ago.
Amazon.com Kindle downloads aren't available for Amazon.uk users.
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/9605/why-can-i-download-kindle-books-from-amazon-com-but-not-from-amazon-co-uk
-
I got it too now, off another platform (Kobo books). There seem to be quite a few willing to sell it.
-
I came across this the other day, quite a neat little You Tube piece about the League of Cambrai, the strategic moves leading up to the battle, and the battle itself; all in 8 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3yROy26tlA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3yROy26tlA)
-
Great video and interesting channel. Just right for an Italian Wars newb like me :)
-
That proved very interesting. good to se34 that there are more battles in that series.
-
With the aid of a dictionary, will be reading Florence Alazard's La bataille oubliée. Agnadel, 1509 : Louis XII contre les Vénitiens (https://www.amazon.com/Bataille-oubli%C3%A9e/dp/2753551332/ref=pd_ybh_a_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=MXES19BX3QKBRX3GX56N)...
Antoine Rivault's review (https://www.cairn.info/revue-d-histoire-moderne-et-contemporaine-2019-1-page-121.htm).
NB: This work covers the events prior and surrounding the campaign, the campaign and the consequences. According to some reviews, the main events of the battle are covered, but it's not a detailed blow by blow account, for those interested in such, Marco Meschini's La battaglia di Agnadello : Ghiaradadda, 14 maggio 1509 is suggested, but it's OOP and I can't find it either on Abebooks or Biblio - anyone know of a digital version? Massimo Predonzani's two articles will have to do ATM, until Helion and Company publishes further titles on the Italian Wars - if ever.
-
I came across this the other day, quite a neat little You Tube piece about the League of Cambrai, the strategic moves leading up to the battle, and the battle itself; all in 8 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3yROy26tlA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3yROy26tlA)
Watched these this morning before work and they were well presented clear and very imformative-top link. Cheers Stephen
-
From Massimo Predonzani's blog:
I veneziani di Agnadello di Francesco Sbarile (https://stemmieimprese.it/2013/11/10/i-veneziani-di-agnadello-di-francesco-sbarile/)
(http://stemmieimprese.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/4.jpg)(http://stemmieimprese.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/IMG_1516.jpg)
Le croci rosse dei veneziani alla battaglia di Agnadello e i segni di riconoscimento degli eserciti italiani nel XVI° secolo. (https://stemmieimprese.it/2015/03/30/le-croci-rosse-dei-veneziani-alla-battaglia-di-agnadello-e-i-segni-di-riconoscimento-degli-eserciti-italiani-nel-xvi%c2%b0-secolo/)
La fanteria veneta del primo ‘500 nei dipinti del Carpaccio (https://stemmieimprese.it/2016/12/18/la-fanteria-veneta-del-primo-500-nei-dipinti-del-carpaccio/)
-
They do look something special and will provide some inspiration for my Venetian army.
-
Stunning figures! :-* :-* :-*
-
Massimo Predonzani's The Italian Wars Volume 2: Agnadello 1509, Ravenna 1512, Marignano 1515 (https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Wars-Agnadello-Marignano-Regiment/dp/1913118800/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1569124211&refinements=p_27%3APredonzani+Massimo&s=books&sr=1-1&text=Predonzani+Massimo) up for pre-order.
-
Many thanks for the information. I have just put in my pre-order on the Amazon UK site.
-
Regarding the defense of Padua after Agnadello, from Simon Pepper's The face of the siege: Fortification, tactics and strategy in the early Italian Wars, in Italy and the European Powers: The Impact of War, 1500-1530 (https://books.google.com/books?id=TtZmAAAAMAAJ&q=Italy+and+the+European+Powers:+The+Impact+of+War,+1500-1530&dq=Italy+and+the+European+Powers:+The+Impact+of+War,+1500-1530&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj8mMbyrbXlAhUHTN8KHajPBsAQ6AEwAHoECAIQAg)