Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: Keith T on May 30, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
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I am looking for a set of rules to fight battles in the Sudan, the mad Madhi era.
I do have black powder rules and their supplement for the Sudan but wonder if you chaps know of a better set?
cheers
Keith
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Death in the Dark Continent is excellent.
If you want a more skirmishy feel, The Men Who Would be Kings is fine.
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Best multi-player game in small scale (6mm) I ever did, we used 'Science Vs Pluck' rules, by Howard Whitehouse. If you and your gaming chums like the idea of a slight bit of 'role-play' as Officers in Her Majesty's army, this is worth acquiring. There's also a lot of good information for this setting too.
Then there's TMWWBK for my quick-play 28mm (or useful for any other scales too) games, handy for a few players wanting to fight Field Forces and Tribal 'Rayyas' & 'Rubs'. Easy format to pick up, even with some friends who are not regular gamers. Field Forces may only be a half-dozen units too, so easy to assemble a suitable collection.
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“A Good Dusting,” by David Bickley and, “The Men Who Would Be King,” by Daniel Mersey.
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Always liked The Sword and the Flame ;)
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I’d endorse Science vs Pluck, we managed to do it in 28mm and it’s a lovely set of rules - umpire-directed Mahdists against British players and you can get a whole campaign played in a day.
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We used A Good Dusting to start with, but they are quite old school, and a bit too simplified for our tastes, fine if you want a fast game though.
We tend to use BP with the Sudan supplement, although I do have Sands of the Sudan which again are a bit old school I guess being based upon Peter Gilder's rules. We haven't got round to trying them yet, my fellow Sudan enthusiast read them through and wasn't overly won over by them, although there are some ideas worth borrowing.
I also have TMWWBK rules but we don't do much in the way of skirmishes for the Sudan so these haven't been tried either. We tried using a set based upon SAGA rules boards which was featured in WSS magazine many moons ago, but the Mahdists always won no matter what troops the British used or which tactics they tried so we dropped those.
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Thanks for some great ideas, I do have BP and its Sudan supplement but always looking for new rules or a fresh take on old rules.[ I also have TMWWBK which are fun skirmish rules but not great for bigger games].
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Pony Wars....use the mahdists as Indians.
8)
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Keith T, why not try The Sword And The Flame. It's been a colonial rules mainstay for decades. The rules are celebrating their 40th Anniversary this year!
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YjBHJv9U7R8/WLCu0rMEUrI/AAAAAAAABp0/UIofMwdvBDIwV3UyMNQDGvFAxunzosZegCLcB/s320/IMG_0065%2B-%2BCopy.JPG)
https://sgtguinness.blogspot.com/2017/02/sudan-1881-gunboat-77-to-tge-rescue.html
Rules available from the author's website: http://www.sergeants3.com/
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Sands of the Sudan are a great set for the 1884-85 period. They also work well for solo gaming.
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Peter Pig’s excellent Patrols in the Sudan is well worth a look.
Written for 15mm but easy to convert to 28s – Very clever rules with the Mahdist player able to move terrain round the board – with Mahdist units potentially moving directly between un-scouted terrain pieces.
Not for big battles – but excellent for marching columns through the desert
Different and fun.
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I would also suggest The Sword & the Flame. I have been having a lot of fun playing these rules since it first came out. the basic rules were written for the British in the Sudan.
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I’d recommend TMWWBK for quick play skirmish.
TSATF for more in depth skirmish games.
For large scale actions, Science versus Pluck has not been bettered.
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Also if you're doing Colonials let's not forget the greatest website ever.....
Major General Tremorden Rederring's Colonial-era Wargames Page
(http://web.archive.org/web/20060614041903/http://zeitcom.com/majgen/index.html)
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Keith, you’ll be pleasantly surprised how easy it is to adapt the MWWBK mechanisms to allow for much bigger games - my Sudan stuff is in 15mm, with the typical ‘rub being 12 stands of 3-4 figures each (representing 900-1000 men) taking on British and Egyptian battalions represented by 8 stands of 4, which looks great. It’s become my ‘go to’ set for colonial gaming for all levels of action.
“Sands of Sudan” capture the feel of the period very well. Science v Pluck is essential reading if only for the background information provided, but less easy to run as a game as written, unless you’ve got a bunch of players who ‘get it’. “Battles for Empire” is also pretty good. Despite its detractors, BP and its supplement actually gives quite an enjoyable and realistic game for the period.
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Just my opinion:
TSATF is Great , fun to play, visually appealable..its the only wargame rules that allow to simulate on tabletop the real essence of colonial warfare...that is a regular , more or less eroic army , vs tribesmen/natives with real antropological advantages and disatvantages at war and that fight like African forest tribesmen, Sudanese tribesmen ecc and not simply as irregulars ...for example despatching wounded, charging without orders and the fact that, on most cases, warriors becoming a herd of sheeps if left without leaders..that use fire weapons roughly and not able to send to contact or in front line every member of the unit (tribe)..with that in mind you can scale down realistically your forces..I think those features which are described in colonial warfare manuals like “small wars” by Calwell ecc...could be find only in TSATF..the other great feature is that if you like personalized skirmishes or bigger battles you can play both with TSATF
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Some good suggestions and advice thanks chaps, I have just ordered a copy of "The sword and the flame " as I hope they might have some new take on the period.
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There is actually a new edition of The Sword and the Flame coming out!
Peter Pig has a set that looks interesting.
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Does the new edition TSATF stream line melee combat? There is a lot to like in the rules but I find the hand to hand combat dreadfully slow and clunky.
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The original version of TSATF (the one by Yaquinto from 1978 or so) has a curiously deterministic system for firing and melee where you just rolled 1d6 causing a small variation in the results. I believe the later versions had you roll d20 per figure.
We found that keeping track of wounded figures might be realistic but it got a bit tedious and slowed the game way down.
It's a good set of rules for its age, but a lot of better systems have come out in the intervening 40 years.
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Ya - for natives I skipped tracking wounds altogether and rebased accordingly - you can read about my modifications here: I've basically hacked it to handle more formations than it was designed for. http://flashman14.blogspot.com/2011/01/15mm-essex-colonial-dervish-rebasing.html (http://flashman14.blogspot.com/2011/01/15mm-essex-colonial-dervish-rebasing.html)
Teaser shot here: (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Yw1RIMXt71U/TTwoGXKB5_I/AAAAAAAAAKs/tczxBvIreiY/s1600/P1220077.JPG)
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We usually use Battles for Empire II by Chris Leach.
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Another set which I quite like is Victorian Steel.
My only problem is that the rules are not very well explained, so you have to use your judgement to figures out a few things.
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There's a new contender from Partizan Press:
https://www.caliverbooks.com/bookview.php?&id=27447
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Simon is also too modest to mention the cracking games of Science vs Pluck he used to run, far too many years ago....
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Patrols in the Sudan.
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There's a new contender from Partizan Press:
https://www.caliverbooks.com/bookview.php?&id=27447
these look good!
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Bindon,
Thanks for remembering that campaign we ran - incredibly, it’s been 9 years since Fred Burnaby was accidentally machine-gunned by the Egyptians, Redvers Buller fell valiantly defending the regimental brandy and Johnny “Bolter” Stewart ran away.
Suitably inspired, we dug out the toys this weekend to try out a few ideas for big battles using MWWBK - just as much (more?) fun than SvP.
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Bloody Big Battles...currently using it for a 15mm campaign based on the Sudan...works a treat
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The original version of TSATF (the one by Yaquinto from 1978 or so) has a curiously deterministic system for firing and melee where you just rolled 1d6 causing a small variation in the results. I believe the later versions had you roll d20 per figure.
We found that keeping track of wounded figures might be realistic but it got a bit tedious and slowed the game way down.
It's a good set of rules for its age, but a lot of better systems have come out in the intervening 40 years.
Like Steve, we also grew tired of keeping track of the wounded so we did away with that. There are variants available online to speed up TSATF’s melee mechanic. I love playing in a TSATF game run by a really good game master but I don’t like running TSATF games. I’ve switched to ‘A Good Dusting’ and ‘The Men Who Would Be King’ depending on mood and type of game. We successfully use the basic mechanics of TMWWBK for games featuring a thousand miniatures.
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Just as a follow-up, in case anyone is interested.
Science vs Pluck 3rd Edition is available at the Wargames Vault summer sale as a watermarked PDF download for $3.74.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/142718/Science-Vs-Pluck-3rd-ed?manufacturers_id=4762
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There's a new contender from Partizan Press:
https://www.caliverbooks.com/bookview.php?&id=27447
I was going to mention these, I just read the tiny bit about them in Miniature Wargames today....does anybody know what the unit sizes are? It said it uses the Bonnie Blue Flag attrition rules, I wondered if it is designed for similar sized units, (ie a brigade of 4 x 24 figure battalions plus cavalry and artillery)
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If you are considering the possibility of using TMWWBK you might take a look at
Rebels & Patriots which I think deals with games in a smoother (quicker/easier) way.
Easily modified for Sudan.
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I now have the Up The Nile rules on order, will have a read through when they get here and relay what I think, if anyone is interested..
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Vodkafan, yes, please do post your thoughts on the rules.
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My group is partial to Battles for Empire II.
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Vodkafan, yes, please do post your thoughts on the rules.
I like the look of the UpThe Nile rules. Had a good read through.
Pros:
The flexibility of the unit sizes (not just the basing) allowing to up or downscale games; (for instance 12 or 24 man units would play the same)
Players dice for initiative , not UGOIGO
Simple mechanisms (firing, attrition) that I think will be quick to learn and apply. I think the "Attrition" attribute would have been better named as "Fortitude" or similar though. A lot of thought has gone into the rules for "forming square" which I think will make for just the sort of fun gamebreaker that I like!
Lots of optional additional rules to add flavor (special characters, Overwhelming Odds, river boats, sieges, Religious fanatics, impetuous cavalry).
QRF sheet
Solo play rules using normal playing cards, with options for natives to pop up from out of nowhere.
Cons: none , but I would have like to see a couple more scenarios added to the book, there are only 2
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You can't go wrong with TMWWBK, but you also might want to look at Up the Nile, which is a new rule book from Partizan Press.
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Stick with Black Powder especially for Big Games
Here is my take on the same battle fought with BP & TMWWBK - there is a clear winner
Part 1
http://shedwars.blogspot.com/2018/07/ambush-on-nile.html (http://shedwars.blogspot.com/2018/07/ambush-on-nile.html)
Part 2
http://shedwars.blogspot.com/2018/07/ambush-on-nile-part-2.html (http://shedwars.blogspot.com/2018/07/ambush-on-nile-part-2.html)
(https://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j375/ErictheShed/Ambush%20on%20the%20Nile/DSC_0178_zpsm079a0vk.jpg)
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Hi Keith I have used TSATF for a long time. Small games, large (16x8) demo games and home based skirmish events. The rules work well and are enjoyable to play and there is a Boxer supplement if I remember correctly!
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I now have the Up The Nile rules on order, will have a read through when they get here and relay what I think, if anyone is interested..
Yes pls buddy
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Yes pls buddy
Scroll up this page a bit Lord Raglan, I posted my first impressions just before your next-to-last post. I do like the look of them, I think they are a very clever ruleset , but the cleverness is all "out of sight" hidden in the simple mechanisms.
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Scroll up this page a bit Lord Raglan, I posted my first impressions just before your next-to-last post. I do like the look of them, I think they are a very clever ruleset , but the cleverness is all "out of sight" hidden in the simple mechanisms.
Thanks for the pointer mate, I was viewing on my phone earlier and I can't see the bloody screen at the best of times.
Glad you like them and they seem promising.