Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Von Trinkenessen on June 09, 2019, 03:28:23 PM
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To all our experts : Did archer cavalry wear a uniform /livery or were they like the landsknechts and other infantry wore their own clothes .
Got some units to paint so all the same colours or mixed?
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While I'm not claiming to be an expert, my archer cavalry are wearing various colors/uniforms. I would think they would be retainers of various nobles in the gendarmes who were then brigaded together for the day of battle. This wasn't an age of standardized uniforms.
Someone else will probably reply here soon with more definitive proof - or tell me I'm wrong. But too late, mine are already painted and I'm not repainting them. :)
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I have done the same as MGH. The Gendarmes aren’t uniformed, I think it highly unlikely the archers would be.
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As I understand it (and please feel free to correct me) there were the members of the gendarmes lances, who I assume were not uniformed, and there were mounted archers of the guard who I have seen illustrated as uniformed - in Osprey’s Fornovo they are shown wearing a blue brigandine with a French white cross, whilst Funcken shows them from Louis XII’s reign as wearing a red and yellow skirted uniform under a breastplate and also wearing a sallet and full leg armour, carrying a bow and arrows. Also shown in Funcken is a mounted guard archer again wearing predominantly yellow and red slashed and parti-coloured clothing but no armour, and this time armed with a crossbow. I think these may have been quite small units. It is my belief that most ‘archers’ were only slightly less well armoured than gendarmes, probably riding unarmored horses. It seems quite difficult to pin down this cavalry type. Alternative Armies actually produce a fully armoured man-at-arms carrying a lance but with a crossbow slung on his back and riding an unarmored horse.
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To all our experts : Did archer cavalry wear a uniform /livery or were they like the landsknechts and other infantry wore their own clothes .
Got some units to paint so all the same colours or mixed?
Would be nice to have some input from Daniel S., but he's only on TMP... :-[
Which (nation-)state's "archer" cavalry are you painting and which year?
Ordonnance Archers WIP part 1 (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/search?q=archers)
Ordonnance Archers Complete ! (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/07/ordonnance-archers-complete.html)
The appearance and equipment of German light cavalry in the early 16th Century (http://kriegsbuch.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-appearance-and-equipment-of-german.html)
Le Voyage de Gênes (http://book-graphics.blogspot.com/2014/03/le-voyage-de-genes.html)
The Journey to Genoa by Jean Marot (http://warfare2.netai.net/Renaissance/Voyage_de_Genes.htm)
Landsknehcts and Reisläufer would've worn their own clothing, with the addition of a field sign, but troops supplied by towns and states would show up in mandated colors, either purchased or supplied by the organization. The Medieval/Renaissance world was obsessed with color for demonstrations of wealth and tribalism. If you look at the Nürnberg/Nuremberg "light" cavalry, in the above link, they're dressed in the city colors of red or red and white. In the Agnadello thread, I mentioned that the militia from Friuli and Padua wore red and white stockings, derived from the livery of Bartolomeo d'Alviano - Condottieri leaders would supply their units with colored stockings and possibly coats.
If you're considering using these "archers" in different armies, paint 'em red, which appears to be a common martial color and just swap out the flag.
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The French were in theory uniformed in the livery of their captains as per the ordonnance / decree of Louis XII but I’m not sure how rigid that was in practice and whether there was a difference in an army of invasion vs home defence.
I’ve created a unit of them in uniform and offer more reading which you can see on the links Condottiere has kindly put above.
They look quite good but I’d also like to do a unit without uniform but with simple field signs for some variety/balance.
All the best
Stuart
The archer guard were uniformed but only took the field alongside the king.
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Here’s my French cavalry with archers, men at arms and gendarmes;
https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2017/11/french-cavalry-part-2.html?m=1 (https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/2017/11/french-cavalry-part-2.html?m=1)
All the best
Stuart
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Those pictures very much appreciated Stuart. It was interesting to see a figure depicted in uniform armed with bow. I am assuming it was only used dismounted.
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Would be nice to have some input from Daniel S., but he's only on TMP... :-[
Here's what Daniel S wrote about archers on the TMP:
"In 1494/1515 there would be few if any Archers among the Gendarmes as the Archers dismounted to fight on foot with their longbows. The 2nd line of the "En Haye" formation would in theory be formed by the Coustilier who had been an important combatant 2nd in rank only to the Gendarme in the 15th Century.
Each company would have a standard which supposedly were based on the livery chosen by the captain rather than
the coat of arms of the various nobles present. Some sources do suggest a move towards a form of national
colours in the shape of the cross of St. Denis (white) on a different coloured background but other images show classic livery style standards. Each Gendarme would have a pennon for his lance, again we do not know much about their colours. It certainly does not help that their is a certain amount of conflict between the various sources."
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=275588
So, it depends on the period you are representing as to whether archers would be dismounted as infantry, or whether you are representing later heavy cavalry were archers take on the role of supporting heavy cavalry.
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Those pictures very much appreciated Stuart. It was interesting to see a figure depicted in uniform armed with bow. I am assuming it was only used dismounted.
Yep they’re effectively mounted infantry. The English and Scots did the same though they were a distinct entity rather than being an integral part of a lance.
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Actually, it depends when you are looking at the Archer Cavalry. While they begin as mounted archers who dismounted to fight (like 17th century dragoons), they eventually become lighter-equipped heavy cavalry charging in the back lines of the formation in support of the gendarmes (front-rank), and I think this would be the case by the 1490's. The Chevalier Bayard supposedly started his career as an "archer."
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Actually, it depends when you are looking at the Archer Cavalry. While they begin as mounted archers who dismounted to fight (like 17th century dragoons), they eventually become lighter-equipped heavy cavalry charging in the back lines of the formation in support of the gendarmes (front-rank), and I think this would be the case by the 1490's. The Chevalier Bayard supposedly started his career as an "archer."
In the 1490s, the second rank was still composed of coustilliers and archers fought as dragoons as late as Pavia 1525, but by mid century, coustilliers were merged/displaced with/by archers.
Renaissance France at War (pp70-85) : The Compagnies d'Ordonnance (https://books.google.com/books/about/Renaissance_France_at_War.html?id=HbfJX2Y1bBkC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=snippet&q=compagnies&f=false)
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My understanding, for what it's worth, is that by the 1490s Archer cavalry, as opposed to mounted archers, were heavy cavalry that from a distance were indistinguishable from the Gendarmes they supported. Closer inspection would reveal men in munition quality plate armour (not made to measure and of lesser quality to that of their 'Gendarme') armed with heavy lance. As far as I'm aware, they were not uniformed as 'units' because they were servants to the 'lance', not to the 'company', to which they belonged but might, as such, wear the livery of their 'Gendarme / Knight' perhaps with a 'national' device on top.
When it comes to mounted archers (e.g. mounted crossbow men), uniform might actually be more common because they would be raised as a 'company' and might be issued with it by the captain who raised them on recruitment. Did they fight mounted or on foot? No one knows for sure.
All in all, I'd say go as you choose. The facts are not conclusive enough to prove you wrong - except, it is certain that not everyone was uniformed, so don't overdo the uniform thing.
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Olicana, my understanding is the same as yours. "Archers" by the 1490's were less well-equipped heavy cavalry, not to be confused with mounted archers, who fought dismounted.
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Archer cavalry up until 1525 were mounted archers who evolved into medium cavalry. It depends on which period you’re looking at, I dare say it doesn’t matter that much but for what it’s worth...
The fighting capability of a French lance of the late 15c to early 16c had a gendarme in the latest armour on an armoured horse, a man at arms in older or munition armour, a coutilier in light armour and two archers.
This composition varied but my understanding is the archers were just that.
Renaissance France at War by David Potter expands on this;
'Archers remained integral to the formation of the gendarmerie. Companies of men at arms had originally been designed to provide combined forces of cavalry and archers - the proportion of archers to men at arms varied widely - in the early years of the 15th C.
Bournonville's companies were fairly evenly balanced. From 1498 each lance was to include one man at arms and two archers. With the reorganisation of pay in 1533-4 lances would contain 100 men at arms and 150 archers. At what stage did archers evolve from real bowmen to slightly less heavily armed cavalry men? Balsac's treatise of the 1490's assumes that archers should be just that and deplored that so many 'cannot shoot'. But there are records of companies of archers actually wielding their bows in the Italian wars. In 1515 the King (Louis XII) decreed that the main cities should maintain armourers to manufacture bows for the archers of the ordonnances and that captains should ensure that there would be 'a good number of archers and crossbowmen drawing the bow well from the saddle or on foot.'
This requirement was repeated (by Francis I) in 1526.The archers have been described as 'second class' or 'medium' cavalry, armed slightly less expensively than the men at arms but sharing the same social prestige of the gendarmerie and crucially lighter and more flexible. Their task was to follow the first wave of attack and in skirmishing, not unlike the chevau-legers.'
I take that to mean that they’re at some point mounted archers.
I welcome any other sources though as there’s not that much in English
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But yep as mentioned above it depends on the period you’re going for and moreover available figures. Historical accuracy is one thing but sometimes it’s not possible with what’s out there unless you’re keen on converting figures.
Ditto for rules for that matter.
As long as there’s a distinction that they’re lighter armed than the gendarmes they’ll be fine. Available figures is always the compromise for the Italian wars though it’s getting better.
Steelfist have recently released a pack which are spot on and there’s more coming too.
I’ll get back in my box now ;D
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I’ll get back in my box now ;D
You're welcome to come out of the box and share your thoughts with us any time, it's always interesting!
In fact I'm actually reading through all your blog this week.... from start to finish! I started following it two or three years ago, and was aware that I'd missed many many years of blogging and painting that had got you to the point where found it. So I'm enjoying reading about your first use of the Perry plastics, your first green stuff sculpting, your first painted Frenchman, etc.... with the knowledge of what it's going to grow to over the coming years!!! :)
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That’s very kind of you Charlie, it’s certainly been a learning curve and there’s no end insight yet !
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Took a look at the Steel Fist Archer cavalry and I reckon a bit of green stuff work on some of my Venexia lighter gendarmes could produce something similar.
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Hi Stuart,
In 1515 the King (Louis XII) decreed that the main cities should maintain armourers to manufacture bows for the archers of the ordonnances and that captains should ensure that there would be 'a good number of archers and crossbowmen drawing the bow well from the saddle or on foot.'
I've seen it somewhere that because of a shortage of Stradiots the French did occasionally band Archer cavalry together in separate units to fill that role. Used as such, a crossbows would be needed. The quote has a Stradiot substitute ring about it. Your thoughts?
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I love this picture from the Cronaca del Ferraiolo. Charles VIII entering Naples ahead of Gendarmes and Archers with crossbows.
(http://ica.themorgan.org/icaimages/8/m801.114ra.jpg)
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Two 15mm examples: on the left is the lighter armoured gendarme from Venexia, whilst on the right is French Archer Cavalry from Alternative Armies. The Venexia figure could be given a crossbow from the range of separate weapons provided by Ancient and Modern Army Supplies (Donnington).
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65964113_152156525943616_7600276523869798400_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQmIrexdjZSqClT924UMRYGa1qngKzQoSxdD_x5OQpU8i63sJP2Ao3_p0234mDB2mR3o1w4gy9plQ8dNm41p_j72&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=d3b0123344b7096968c71838e8e5f0b4&oe=5DBC6FCE)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/65104453_152156462610289_5186419257574948864_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQmZ9LhRBgIm76-5BX9fAq2EOowply70CO0LDnElSNZ5Va0WvwpjEO8GibKToj4l57OmN_cRbqcRkMI1GH0BYnL7&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=cdf290598e5607ef5bc12c5eefbf91d1&oe=5DBB838E)
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Hi Stuart,
I've seen it somewhere that because of a shortage of Stradiots the French did occasionally band Archer cavalry together in separate units to fill that role. Used as such, a crossbows would be needed. The quote has a Stradiot substitute ring about it. Your thoughts?
Definitely and that would be great to represent in miniature. The other source of confusion is the term ‘Argoulet’ which in the early Italian wars appears to refer to Balkan light cavalry but at some point it merged into just being a term for a mounted crossbowman / arquebusier which is something different altogether. I wonder if a lot of the confusion isn’t helped to things being lost in translation
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Possibly more representative picture of a Gendarme and his two lance armed archers.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F6E_hdzfy_0/VJlW0xT641I/AAAAAAAACxc/WKbLrXHFLnM/s1600/1510-15%2B93-000209.jpg)
If two thirds of a 'Gendarme' formation (the archers) were crossbow armed, you would think there would be many mentions of their effect. Some may argue that a lack of evidence doesn't prove they were not used but, given the numbers of heavy cavalry composed in the 'lance structure' you'd think there would be mentions of horses and the higher ranks of society being brought down by crossbows, or perhaps their employment to break into pike squares if they were being used en masse - the latter something that gets mentioned as a novel tactic as soon as pistol armed cavalry (reiters) come onto the scene.
As seen in a previous post, I think the issue of crossbow was possibly for use when archer cavalry were to supplement Stradiot numbers, or substitute for them when Stradiots were not available. Not to mention whilst employed in garrisons, etcetera; which would make a lot of sense.
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Regarding uniformity in the lances, from History & Uniforms #2, a plate caption from the Agnadello article:
(page 24) Knight of the Charles d'Amboise’s company, with the captain symbol on the coat: the wild man with a green mace in his hand. The historian Paolo Giovio points out that at the French captains used their personal distinctive figures embroidered in silver or gold on the coats of their men, ether in front or back. Marshal of France Gian Giacomo Trivulzio had for personal symbol the square marble clock, with an iron sting the middle and opposite of the sun. However, in the miniatures from the Chroniques of Jean d'Autun, his knights appear dressed in red and yellow as in the king company. Charles de Bourbon Montpensier, Great Constable of France, had painted on surcoats of his company a winged deer, while the wheel symbol was adopted by Captain Louis de la Tremouille. Finally, the cavalrymen of Louis d'Ars wore coat of white and yellow with red bars. These were figures and colours of some French captains present at Agnadello.
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That’s great to know, thanks. Do you have an image of the illustration?
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That’s great to know, thanks. Do you have an image of the illustration?
The forthcoming The Italian Wars Volume 1: The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo (https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Wars-Expedition-Charles-Regiment/dp/1912866528/ref=pd_ybh_a_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=NDSJP4YX2CYJV8EZCHWE) should have some relevant plates, if the cover's an indicator:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91oK6SnPBNL.jpg)
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Looking forward to that book, even though I have done the bulk of the army.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
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Also looking forward to that book and will collect the series if it continues :)
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My suspicion is that the Archers who are described as dismounting to fight were the Guard Archers, who seem to have been retained in their traditional form as longbowmen longer than the bulk of the archers from the ordonnance companies.
Longbow archery was not native to France but a transplant from England. It was taken up in the end period of the Hundred Years War, but it would have been difficult to maintain the training necessary to use the weapon at anything approaching effectiveness. The Francs Archers petered out as an effective force, more and more of them being armed with the more familiar crossbow as time went on, until the longbow was withdrawn altogether. It's not hard to imagine a similar thing happening in the ordonnance companies.
When having the French Archers made for our upcoming Italian Wars Range, I had them made as lighter versions of gendarmes, with lighter lances, but had a wrapped longbow and an arrow bag made as separate pieces, so the gamer can stick them on if he feels the Archers still carried the equipment (which they may have, even if it was only used for sieges).
Here are our 15mm French Archers as a WIP. The Archer in the middle has the wrapped bow and arrow bag added to show how it looks.
(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/french-archers.jpg)
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I really like the look of those figures.