Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => Topic started by: Cacique Caribe on August 18, 2019, 05:41:46 PM
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Do your preferred rules favor or discourage the use of very thick jungle growth?
Are your ruins easy to spot on your table, or are they hidden and grown over with all manner the jungle vegetation?
What percentage of your table would you say is covered by jungle trees, vines and bushes? And why? Does thick growth work for or against your overall goals in your games?
Inquiring minds want to know. Well, at least this one. :)
PS. Also, I really like how these gents found excellent ways to “tone down” the colors of their lush assortments of plastic vegetation:
http://1000footgeneral.blogspot.com/2017/06/making-jungle-terrain.html
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=115696.msg1449327#msg1449327
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It depends on the game.
I have used the following:-
1) Dense clumps with pathways in-between, & if anyone enters the dense clumps
they disappear from the game. They may/may not reappear. I feel free to
Kreigspeil this, e.g. exit table pursued by a tiger or reenter game at a point of
my choosing when I feel like it/ they get the right dice score, minus something
(weapon, ammo, water, arm or leg etc.
2) Outlines (to show limits of jungle) then move clumps around as troops move
(slowly) through the jungle.
3) Several clumps together to make a total barrier, which makes a limit on table of
what players can see & where they can not go.
4) Clumps are great for ambush games, e.g. Viet Nam when a US patrol does not
know where the attack will come from, or even if it will come. Heavy on the nerves.
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Do your preferred rules favor or discourage the use of very thick jungle growth?
Are your ruins easy to spot on your table, or are they hidden and grown over with all manner the jungle vegetation?
What percentage of your table would you say is covered by jungle trees, vines and bushes? And why? Does thick growth work for or against your overall goals in your games?
Inquiring minds want to know. Well, at least this one. :)
PS. Also, I really like how these gents found excellent ways to “tone down” the colors of their lush assortments of plastic vegetation:
http://1000footgeneral.blogspot.com/2017/06/making-jungle-terrain.html
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=115696.msg1449327#msg1449327
Coverage depends on hills, if I have hills on the table that are over 3" high I use 50-70% coverage, lower than 3" 30-50% and -10% from those figures if there is a coastline in play. Rivers up to 3" wide add 15%, 3-12" wide add 25%.
So depending on hills and rivers and coasts, between 20 and 95%
This is based on annualised rain fall in the tropics and (obviously) assumes there are no active logging industries in the area.
Also, don't forget we're talking Jungles here and not rainforests, I use different calculations for each http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-jungle-and-rainforest/ (http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-jungle-and-rainforest/)
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Coverage depends on hills, if I have hills on the table that are over 3" high I use 50-70% coverage, lower than 3" 30-50% and -10% from those figures if there is a coastline in play. Rivers up to 3" wide add 15%, 3-12" wide add 25%.
So depending on hills and rivers and coasts, between 20 and 95%
This is based on annualised rain fall in the tropics and (obviously) assumes there are no active logging industries in the area.
Also, don't forget we're talking Jungles here and not rainforests, I use different calculations for each http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-jungle-and-rainforest/ (http://www.differencebetween.net/science/nature/difference-between-jungle-and-rainforest/)
Dr De'Ath, as you know we agree on most things but I feel you are presenting slightly misleading facts. Have you considered the standard conventions regarding forest density as drawn up in the treaty of 1925? They state, and I am paraphrasing here, that density cannot be to the detriment of any person or persons exploring the forests. Examples being getting hopelessly lost with no chance of survival or getting stuck between two trunks recklessly placed too close together. Such reckless actions could lead to litigation against the individual or individuals in legal possession of the said forest. In this case I am of course assuming The Lost World is owned by Messers A C Doyle.
We're good friends but in this instance I must send a shot across your bow and warn you against half baked advice regarding density above 75%.
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I have to agree with the good Doctor. There was a reason that "lost cities" went undiscovered by Europeans for hundreds of years. I have spent a good deal of time in jungles in the Pacific. They can be unbelievably difficult to move through and limit sight to a couple of feet. God help you if you get into false rattan. It will restrict movement to a couple of feet per minute, exhaust you, and may eventually totally entangle you. Once I chopped one with a machete and the strand parted with a twang. Like a snapped cable it ripped my glasses off my face and left a welt. I spent 45 minutes looking for my glasses, never found them and had to navigate out half blind on compass headings. Now imagine having to get a column with baggage through that.
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I have to agree with Marianas ,Jungle is hareful stuff .The ground doesn't stay where it's supposed to . The green bits try to eat you.and not matter what you hit it with, it doesn't scare easily. wildlife regardless of its size sees you as lunch
Long before anyone tries to give you lead poisoning.
Personally I've been musing over how to represent jungle warfare. For me the closest representation is something between a very green space hulk and a dungeon crawl where the walls and the floor can do you a mischief everytime you move.Only to walk into a room with no visible exits.
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Before I forget ...
I conducted a little experiment this afternoon/evening, following a little advice from my wife. After soaking a stack of plastic foliage in detergent water for a while, and then thoroughly rinsing and drying, I wanted to brush on a light brown wash on the leaves. However, as a test, I sprayed half of them with Krylon Matte Varnish BEFORE brushing on the brown wash. The results were much, MUCH better than if I had simply put the wash on by itself.
I will still do a final spray of the Krylon at the end, to protect and seal everything in place of course.
Thoughts?
Dan
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Let them sit for about a week - I have had them go sticky, like Reaper's Bones, but not consistently, so watch for that.
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Dr De'Ath, as you know we agree on most things but I feel you are presenting slightly misleading facts. Have you considered the standard conventions regarding forest density as drawn up in the treaty of 1925? They state, and I am paraphrasing here, that density cannot be to the detriment of any person or persons exploring the forests. Examples being getting hopelessly lost with no chance of survival or getting stuck between two trunks recklessly placed too close together. Such reckless actions could lead to litigation against the individual or individuals in legal possession of the said forest. In this case I am of course assuming The Lost World is owned by Messers A C Doyle.
We're good friends but in this instance I must send a shot across your bow and warn you against half baked advice regarding density above 75%.
My Dear Thunderchicken,
The treaty of 1925 doesn't apply in this instance as it relates to Forests, not Jungles. If the OP had asked about Forest Density then of course we'd refer to the 1925 Treaty and I'd agree with your 75% position, but they didn't.
Consider the shot across the bows re 'half baked adviced' returned with double the density (pun intended lol) for such a schoolboy error.
Dr De'Ath
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Going with my own experiences with jungles in Central and South America, ì agree depending on the amount of annual rainfall can make a difference of how heavy or lite the jungle can be, but terrain has an effect as well. I found that in the low grounds and valleys it was thick and heavily dense, and along the rivers as well, on the hill and mountain sides it was lighter and on the ridge line it was very light very much easier to travel as long as it was running along the direction you were traveling. Traveling the low ground the jungle was so heavy at times it was almost as dark as night under it's canopy then you come out into an opening of a huge field of 8 feet or taller grass of sorts that would take three men working together with their own body weight to lay it down to make a path. If you hit a bamboo forest just go around it, sure they look all small and easy to cut, then after a couple of yards they get bigger and thicker and now it takes a minute or so to cut one down and you have to pull it out of your way just so you can get to the next one yeah just go around. Don't go around big hills and such you make better traveling time going up and over them.
Anyway that's been my experience with jungles, hope it helps.
Doug
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Doug
Growing up in the Caribbean, where there are no large mammals to make trails that people can then exploit and widen for generations after generations, my brother and I used to go “exploring” out deep in the hills and through some decent woods. Sometimes the woods were so thick that we were force to instead head down to streams and wade along, just until we bypassed some of the denser clumps trees and vines, specially if the vines had long sharp needles.
We once came across a very wide but relatively narrow thicket of bamboo that we had spotted from above earlier. We could could have gone around it, but we didn’t want to lose time walking so much. Our machetes were extremely sharp when we started cutting (at 8 and 13-years of age we were very accustomed to carrying and using very sharp machetes), but these quickly dulled. And we quickly tired, exhausted actually. Yes, best to bypass those bamboo spots.
Dan
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For most part good times I had in the jungles down there, tried to stay out of the streams, to many things in the water, depending where I was at, I much rather deal with the critters on dry land, then those under the surface of the water.
One of my best memories was breaking through the jungle traversing a steep hill side and coming across a waterfall, that poured half way down into a large pool which then poured the rest of the way to the bottom to a larger pool, then run on down to the rest of the jungle it was picture perfect, like a postcard or something out of a traveling ad, and the thought that I and those whom I was with were most likely the only to have been there in decades, for I did see any signs of anyone else ever being there.
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By the way Dan you should share your mangrove project here!
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I am old school, I like a dense bush.
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Oooohh Matron!
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By the way Dan you should share your mangrove project here!
Doug
Do you mean this mangrove proof of concept?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9593487@N07/48238311611/in/album-72157709365896792
Here’s the album:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9593487@N07/albums/72157709365896792
And I have many more pictures to add to that album too.
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Yes, those are the ones!
They are excellent!
I remember seeing actual mangroves along many coastal lines even at the mouths or along the banks of tidal rivers, and you recreated that look quite well.
They could be used in a good range of games, pirates for one.
Doug
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My Dear Thunderchicken,
The treaty of 1925 doesn't apply in this instance as it relates to Forests, not Jungles. If the OP had asked about Forest Density then of course we'd refer to the 1925 Treaty and I'd agree with your 75% position, but they didn't.
Consider the shot across the bows re 'half baked adviced' returned with double the density (pun intended lol) for such a schoolboy error.
Dr De'Ath
Dr De'Ath (now ex-friend)
I think you'll find the appendices of the 1925 Treaty state that most jungles are considered forests and refereed to as such for the sake of the wording (and to save ink). Your reference to a 'schoolboy error' is not very diplomatic and considered a threat. I have no option other than to mobilise my forces and give you a damn good thrashing at the earliest opportunity. Checking my diary this should be at some point in 2022. You have been warned.
Cacique, apologies for hijacking your thread. Now my ex-friend had been put in his place I will leave you to it.
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Dr De'Ath (now ex-friend)
I think you'll find the appendices of the 1925 Treaty state that most jungles are considered forests and refereed to as such for the sake of the wording (and to save ink). Your reference to a 'schoolboy error' is not very diplomatic and considered a threat. I have no option other than to mobilise my forces and give you a damn good thrashing at the earliest opportunity. Checking my diary this should be at some point in 2022. You have been warned.
Cacique, apologies for hijacking your thread. Now my ex-friend had been put in his place I will leave you to it.
Dearest Cheeks.
What edition of the 1925 Treaty do you have? Mine is a first edition and it doesn't have the appendices you refer to, so I fear we may have fallen out unnecessarily. Obviously if you have more complete information than I do then the schoolboy error is entirely mine and I unreservedly apologise.
Just in case you decide to reject my apology, please note that the only opening I have in 2022 for a damned good thrashing is the first weekend of the Michealmas Term.
Your Humble Servant
Dr De'Ath.
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Currently I'm looking at Aliexpress for palm tress and other such items, there is a set of a 100 for 27 USD, that stand just over 2 Inches, interesting part is you can pull the tops off and use them as ground level growing palms as well.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0MX3e0x5ToY/XZDrZjOoEzI/AAAAAAAAB5w/TpgMrnmrHV8pa67GCI7hoWEgaCeYJomJQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/HTB15Sp2g.l7MKJjSZFDq6yOEpXaI.jpg)
And there are so many more to choose from
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dy7_ao4KhqQ/XZDtt-2OyuI/AAAAAAAAB58/n_vM63556Ok-_anq4LqctMCf2wCwfP_fwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Hf08d15fcde9543d6833f9a0445617b4cn.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yALMl5Je6Vo/XZDtyGvifQI/AAAAAAAAB6A/DBd18ZJkcZgAQ2K3mgBwS4bmZXiz_Ub6wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/HTB1mH9xXE_rK1Rjy0Fcq6zEvVXaw.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c8rr_qgQsGg/XZDt4WQO8qI/AAAAAAAAB6E/7rActMBsoMId9Kzx7q_Yejfutxv8UxJ_wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/HTB1HCpwPVXXXXc_XpXXq6xXFXXXh.jpg)
Now if you can't make a jungle out of all that there is more to look at!
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Those are some great jungle trees. I really like how you did the bases too.
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We like it to look lush. The trees in the images below were assembled or made by my friend, Jeff, for his WW1 in Africa and his 1950's French Indochina project. But I borrowed it for a "Lost World" Pulp table and left a lot of clear space for the figures to move through. Could have cluttered it up more with lots of green lichen or moss, or patches of moss covered "pot toppers" that I got from the craft store. But that extra greenery was not needed. First 3 pics from game a few weeks ago:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/40/149-170919185012-409221492.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/40/149-170919182038-409061576.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/40/149-170919183110-40918739.jpeg)
These 8 from a game a couple of years ago:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_12_06_17_9_33_55.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_12_06_17_9_19_29.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_12_06_17_9_39_15.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_12_06_17_10_06_20.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_12_06_17_10_00_03.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_13_06_17_2_37_45.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_14_06_17_2_28_22.JPG)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/28/149_13_06_17_2_47_50.JPG)
Generally speaking, a few tall palms, a few tall trees with hanging vines, and some shorter green stuff such as tall reeds, can set a jungle mood and make the players feel the sweat and bugs without covering everything in green scrub.
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Being that I play in 15 scale, it would be easy for long tall grass to be made from fake eyelashes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJ5Zn_VafU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJ5Zn_VafU)
they can be used for around the bases of trees or poking out from under the ground brush around the edges.
Dollar Tree carries packs for 1 USD, just remember to wink at the cashier as you check out ;)
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We like it to look lush. The trees in the images below were assembled or made by my friend, Jeff, for his WW1 in Africa and his 1950's French Indochina project. But I borrowed it for a "Lost World" Pulp table and left a lot of clear space for the figures to move through. Could have cluttered it up more with lots of green lichen or moss, or patches of moss covered "pot toppers" that I got from the craft store. But that extra greenery was not needed.
Generally speaking, a few tall palms, a few tall trees with hanging vines, and some shorter green stuff such as tall reeds, can set a jungle mood and make the players feel the sweat and bugs without covering everything in green scrub.
Amazing terrain, thanks for sharing! :o
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Agreed, lush, full, or busy. Just as long as you can move pieces or some space for figures.
See the latest WI magazine WI384 Oct. issue) that has my Ramree Island game, and you'll see my version of a thick mangrove swamp.
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Your river is one of the best looking jungle rivers I've seen is a game. Usually they are the typical sky blue, not the slow moving muddy waters you have created. Very impressed.
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Your river is one of the best looking jungle rivers I've seen is a game. Usually they are the typical sky blue, not the slow moving muddy waters you have created. Very impressed.
Thanks! The riverbed was originally built as a dry riverbed by my friend Jeff for a WW1 game set in East Africa. Since the pieces were still around, I got him to let me recut them, paint the bed brownish green, and apply layers of clear varnish. I grew up in west Tennessee, where the water in the creeks is usually brown. The river next to my house is often teal colored, but brown when in flood.
One of the best quick jungle rivers I've seen was a roll of brown butcher paper that was waxed on one side. Roll it out with the waxed side up and presto! Instant jungle river. Saw that in a game featuring Belgian Force Publique in the Congo vs Colonel Kurtz (of Conrad's Heart of Darkness).
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Napalm is your friend when clearing jungles.
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Warrenpeace
That table looks unbelievable. I am in awe.
And I need to get my hands on some of those inland forest (sago?) palms too.
Dan
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I am very inspired by this, from "1000 Foot General" Blog;
https://1000footgeneral.blogspot.com/2017/06/making-jungle-terrain.html (https://1000footgeneral.blogspot.com/2017/06/making-jungle-terrain.html)
I really like what he has done very much so!
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K8xpSrY4kV8/WTBGUEHrHpI/AAAAAAAAIZk/tzHrfcWc5Jk8zkmiYjW-zank1qHm89hFgCKgB/s1600/jungle-terrain-13.JPG)
I can't wait to get the materials to start this! Plus trying my hand at those Mangroves you did too, Dan.
Which reminds me, Dan did you use rubberized horse hair for the upper tree branches?
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Doug
That is correct, though I need to make the canopies a little more see through next time I make more mangrove trees:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9593487@N07/48238400917/in/album-72157709365896792/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9593487@N07/albums/72157709365896792
Dan
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Thanks, I still think they look really great!
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Doug
As for the “horsehair” material, I bought the minimum, which is a foot wide, and that should be more than enough for my immediate needs:
https://www.onlinefabricstore.net/1-x-24-rubberized-hair-.htm?turntosku=185350&turntoEmailType=reviewSolicitation&turntosuid=SEcHa0Ae&transId=364909&reviewStartAction=rateIt&starSelected=0&turntoflow=review#turntodone
I wasn’t planning to use it as hedges*, as you can see from these photos, though loose bomas are a possibility in the near future:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9593487@N07/albums/72157707123698885
https://live.staticflickr.com/7805/46359008515_c168fbfd75_4k.jpg
I am extremely pleased with the material. Easy to cut, split, tease apart, and to glue down with a little tacky glue, etc. Now I’m just waiting for another mild sunny day to prime them brown, then paint and lightly flock them.
The more I work with the material the more I’ve come to understand the concept of “less is more”. The more you can tease a small amount of it, to the point where you can see a little through the canopy, the better.
I hope it’s helpful to the rest of you guys as well.
Dan
* And it would certainly work for hedges, in my opinion.
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Very helpful. Good thread, I will be using a few of these ideas as well as a few of my own for my Nam jungle. Thanks
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Dan,
Those trees look great too! They would be great for use on a Savanna Terrain!
I wish to add a couple of these trees for my jungle as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Wenini-Simulated-Tree-Developmental-Educational/dp/B07MZMJ3G9/ref=sr_1_129?keywords=plastic%2Btrees&qid=1572407438&sr=8-129&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Wenini-Simulated-Tree-Developmental-Educational/dp/B07MZMJ3G9/ref=sr_1_129?keywords=plastic%2Btrees&qid=1572407438&sr=8-129&th=1)
It would add some depth to the terrain just a few here and there.
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I've found that there are these you can print.
https://www.printablescenery.com/product/mangrove-tree/
Here are a couple of photos of the Mangroves in the stream beside our Scout Den...
I hope they can be seen. They are supposed to show how far the level can drop in a tidal stream with Mangroves.
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Deflatermouse
Wow. It’s amazing to me that mangroves can grow in more temperate areas. I was always surrounded by the more tropical types of mangroves, such as those in Lajas and Guanica (Puerto Rico):
https://islandsofpuertorico.com/mata-la-gata-island-lajas-nature-reserve/
Dan
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Back to density, this is the density I’m aiming for, this bring about two foot by four, so a third of the way there!
(https://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/DigitsDavid/A%20Lost%20a%20World/FE354B11-6D0F-4BB5-B1ED-0488788F4073.jpeg)
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Digits
Wow. That photo really reminds of El Peten, Belize and Yucatán. Most excellent!
Dan
PS. I love those tall jungle trees! Were they purchased, or were made by you?
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Scratch built. Check out the work in progress pictures in Daftest Africa / Fire in the Hole threads. Wire armatures, latex painted and flocked.
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Digits
Do you mean these threads?
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121136.0
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=98656.0
Dan
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Indeed.....though you will need to wait a day or so for my pictures to reappear apparently!
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Well I just put in an order for some plastic plants for making so of the undergrowth for my jungle terrain.
Here's what I ordered;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/150Pcs-Pack-Greenry-Ground-Grass-Model-Toy-Layout-Trail-Railroad-Scene-Decor/223093874017?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180816085401%26meid%3D6816547562504650a2445615adb7462c%26pid%3D100970%26rk%3D14%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D323215280645%26itm%3D223093874017%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100970.m5481&_trkparms=pageci%3Aadbb1ef5-22c3-11ea-8358-74dbd180906a%7Cparentrq%3A20cf1bdc16f0a4b7fcba74ffffafd6b8%7Ciid%3A1 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/150Pcs-Pack-Greenry-Ground-Grass-Model-Toy-Layout-Trail-Railroad-Scene-Decor/223093874017?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180816085401%26meid%3D6816547562504650a2445615adb7462c%26pid%3D100970%26rk%3D14%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D323215280645%26itm%3D223093874017%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100970.m5481&_trkparms=pageci%3Aadbb1ef5-22c3-11ea-8358-74dbd180906a%7Cparentrq%3A20cf1bdc16f0a4b7fcba74ffffafd6b8%7Ciid%3A1)
Hoping to order more stuff Later
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Doug
Excellent choice. Good mix. Just make sure to snip the long-ish stems.
Dan
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Excellent choice. Good mix. Just make sure to snip the long-ish stems.
Thanks Dan,
Your right they will need some trimming down, I also plan to use the cut offs as well, to make the jungle underbrush even thicker.
I still need palm trees, plus there are some larger trees I want to get as well
https://www.amazon.com/Wenini-Simulated-Tree-Developmental-Educational/dp/B07MZMJ3G9/ref=sr_1_129?keywords=plastic%2Btrees&qid=1572407438&sr=8-129&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/Wenini-Simulated-Tree-Developmental-Educational/dp/B07MZMJ3G9/ref=sr_1_129?keywords=plastic%2Btrees&qid=1572407438&sr=8-129&th=1)
String some heavy thread and a touch of flock or something from them, then you have jungle vines.
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I will be getting some of this stuff too, to help with the basic ground cover and vines. Poly Fiber
https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/item/FP178 (https://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/item/FP178)
Plus it would be useful for other terrain as well.
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Doug
I wish that material was available in brown.
Dan
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Spray it brown....easy to do.
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How well does that material take paint? I’ve never used it, or even seen it in person, which is why I ask.
Dan
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I don't know how it takes paint, but as soon as I can get some I'll try and report it on this thread, because I want to know myself.
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Excellent. Look forward to seeing the results. Thanks so much.
Dan
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Spray paint no problems. I use it to put on my trees before fixing clump foliage.
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Well there you go problem solved.
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I might have to give that material a try, with a little tan/brown spray paints.
Dan
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I am waiting for some of my finances to be freed up and I will be on a small spending spree lol get it "small" spending spree lol
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Monkey
Let me know if there’s anything I can help with.
Also, later this week (or next) I should be loading some photos of my thick jungle undergrowth bases.
Dan