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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Atheling on August 19, 2019, 07:34:45 PM

Title: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 19, 2019, 07:34:45 PM
Rediscovered some passion and inspiration!!

I'm happy to announce that after four to five years away from wargaming I'm back and I've decided upon a project; The Battle of Fornovo

It's only the beginning but you can read all about it here if you have a mind to:

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/to-fornovo-and-back-again.html (https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/to-fornovo-and-back-again.html)

Cheeky pic here:Federico II Gonzaga, Crossing the River Taro, Battle of Fornovo:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-752ooDpyaRc/XVrxx7SxIeI/AAAAAAABB3g/e7NvvzTrCzw3Xx5vK-E0IUioUUzrQyAxQCLcBGAs/s1600/Gonzaga%2BCrossing%2Bthe%2BRiver%2BTaro%2B1c.jpg)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Poiter50 on August 20, 2019, 02:09:10 AM
Good to hear, I have followed projects of yours in the past.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Blackwolf on August 20, 2019, 04:06:57 AM
That’s a great little scene,the river crossing. Very evocative :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 20, 2019, 08:52:58 AM
Good to hear, I have followed projects of yours in the past.

That’s a great little scene,the river crossing. Very evocative :-*

It was almost certainly evocative for Gonzaga as his charge came to a standstill in the middle of the gushing River Taro!

Thanks guys. Appreciated, if I'm honest the piece is quite a few years old but I wanted to grab attention as I *really* am intent on making this project sing and getting back into the rhythm of painting again :)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: smirnoff on August 20, 2019, 11:41:08 AM
Top stuff
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 20, 2019, 12:13:55 PM
Top stuff

Thanks Smirnoff.

The next Blog entry is here:

Fornovo, Essential Reading Part One:
https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/fornovo-essential-reading-part-one.html (https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/fornovo-essential-reading-part-one.html)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 11:08:25 AM
Now up on my Gewalthaufen Blog..... do feel free pop over and take a look if you're interested in this era of warfare. :)

Fornovo Essential Reading Part Two:

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/fornovo-essential-reading-part-two.html (https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/fornovo-essential-reading-part-two.html)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: armchairgeneral on August 22, 2019, 12:01:56 PM
Hi Darrell,

Good to have you back! I was wondering where you had got to?  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 12:20:38 PM
Hi Darrell,

Good to have you back! I was wondering where you had got to?  :)

Thanks matey :)

I've been utterly snowed under with stuff for a few years.....

It's good to be back!  8)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Charlie_ on August 22, 2019, 12:32:16 PM
Interesting, I'm planning to one day extend my late 15th century collection to the first Italian War. Not Fornovo itself, but rather small scale actions on the campaign trail to Naples and back.

I'm interested to see how you choose to represent the Italian infantry.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 12:55:53 PM
Interesting, I'm planning to one day extend my late 15th century collection to the first Italian War. Not Fornovo itself, but rather small scale actions on the campaign trail to Naples and back.

I'm interested to see how you choose to represent the Italian infantry.

In terms of pike:

With the date of the battle being 1495, not too long after Stoke Field then I feel it's fair to assume that most of the armours would be similar but obviously more in the Italian style. Same with the fashion. I haven't made a concrete decision about whether to include a lot of conversion work, or not as the case may be, as of yet. There will certainly be quite a few conversions overall but they are likely to be restricted to vignettes and character pieces. If I am to include a lot of conversions on rank and file types I have to factor in the time it will take, which is always a wee while! (Re: a long time!)

I've got three choices or a combination of all. Perry rank and file conversions, TAG Renaissance Italian range and of course the Perry Miniatures European Armies, which is probably the closest in terms of armours and clothing for 1495, with head swaps utilising their Italian heads and a mix of their European heads, to be used with plastic 'Mercenaries' WR 20 or Wars of the Roses infantry which seem to match headgear on the the TAG range nicely. There will also be a number of the oft overlooked Venexia miniatures included in the range as well as Crusader WoR range!! So, in summary, there is quite a wide scope to choose from.

Charlie,
I've just realised that you were likely asking about how I would be painting the infantry(?).

Here's a couple of packs of Italian Infantry I painted up for the Perry's a few years ago which illustrate some of the Italian fashion choices and colours of the time. The info re: the colours, heraldic devices was supplied to me by Michael Perry so it's safe to assume it's accurate.

(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/IMG_4366.JPG)

(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/IMG_4364.JPG)

Watch this space :)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Neldoreth on August 22, 2019, 05:50:35 PM
That little diorama is excellent and inspiring.

Funny how the one banner bearer is actually hidden there :)

Looking forward to seeing this come together!

Thanks
n
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 06:38:17 PM
That little diorama is excellent and inspiring.

Thanks :)

Funny how the one banner bearer is actually hidden there :)

Ooh, you've tempted me: ;)

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WkbPD4vILlM/VjIVOaqD_QI/AAAAAAAAj8E/k9iJB7eEZCM/s1600/Gonzaga%2BCrossing%2Bthe%2BRiver%2BTaro%2B1a.jpg)

Yeah, I'm getting stuck into it both painting a (re) reading wise. It's been a while and i want to get the details as legitimate as possible, within reason of course :)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Andym on August 22, 2019, 06:55:14 PM
Cracking little scene! :-* I can't wait to see what else you produce!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: bluewillow on August 22, 2019, 07:12:18 PM
Looking forward to this mate

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 08:09:51 PM
Cracking little scene! :-* I can't wait to see what else you produce!

Looking forward to this mate

Cheers
Matt

Thanks guys, much appreciated support.

The project has really got my blood up. (Nearly as much as watching Jofra Archer bowl at the Aussies earlier today! ;) )

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Charlie_ on August 22, 2019, 08:15:04 PM
Charlie,
I've just realised that you were likely asking about how I would be painting the infantry(?).

Actually no, I was talking more about the sort of troops you will use to represent Italian infantry, something I'm rather curious about as I'll be doing it myself sometime.

The first Italian War has several iconic troop types - French Ordonnance cavalry/men-at-arms/gendarmes.... Swiss pikemen in French service..... Italian heavy cavalry.... Stradiots and other Italian light cavalry....... And then the Italian infantry which seems a bit of a mystery to me. I believe the French also had Milanese infantry on their side?

Were they pikemen? Mostly crossbowmen? What about these chaps with oval shields and swords or spears, which we often see depicted in period art, and the Perrys have done one really nice set of sculpts for? Were such troops fielded in large numbers? Did they fight in closed ranks or as skirmishers? Were they fielded by themselves, or interspersed with missile troops or pikemen?
Would the Italian infantry be more or less the same as all other European infantry just with a slightly different sense of fashion, or would they actually be quite distinct in their armament and battlefield role?
I'd love to know more!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: pete17 on August 22, 2019, 08:42:53 PM
Hi Darrell have a look here http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/146991 (http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/thumbs/146991) and here https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8426259s/f23.planchecontact (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8426259s/f23.planchecontact) and the hespiris manuscript depicting scenes from the life of Sigismundo Malatesta suggests Italians had a mixture of pike, sword armed, handgun, javelin and crossbowmen behind a rank of oval shielded spear armed types; I've got a link to the manuscript somewhere but can't find it at theminute however here's a pic (https://legaitalica1454.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/hesperis-arsenal-folio-112-recto-combattimento-dettaglio-lanze-longhe.jpg?w=640) there's better images illustrating the point above in the manuscript.

cheers Pete
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: pete17 on August 22, 2019, 08:47:27 PM
found it https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525024658/f96.planchecontact (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525024658/f96.planchecontact)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on August 22, 2019, 09:04:10 PM
Bare in mind Sigismondo Malatesta died in 1468 and those scenes are from La battaglia di Piombino 1448 (https://stemmieimprese.it/2012/09/17/la-battaglia-di-piombino-1448/).

(http://stemmieimprese.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/battaglia-poggio.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 09:15:10 PM
Bare in mind Sigismondo Malatesta died in 1468 and those scenes are from La battaglia di Piombino 1448 (https://stemmieimprese.it/2012/09/17/la-battaglia-di-piombino-1448/).

(http://stemmieimprese.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/battaglia-poggio.jpg)

Yeah, it's likely 'Italian' tactics would have caught up with most of Mainland Europe by 1495.

Still, these pictures/links are very inspirational so please keep them coming  :-* :-* :-*

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: pete17 on August 22, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
True, my guess is Italian Infantry used similar tactics until the French and Swiss gave them a bit of a shock and that's why anything different is given a worthy mention such as Pike from the Romagna, Venetians at Agnadello, that's  if they did have pikes.  Now working out what the French and Spanish infantry formations looks like is a real challenge.  This Link from 1513 has some inspirational images including dismounted French archers https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique)

cheers Pete
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 10:09:45 PM
True, my guess is Italian Infantry used similar tactics until the French and Swiss gave them a bit of a shock and that's why anything different is given a worthy mention such as Pike from the Romagna, Venetians at Agnadello, that's  if they did have pikes.  Now working out what the French and Spanish infantry formations looks like is a real challenge.  This Link from 1513 has some inspirational images including dismounted French archers https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique)

cheers Pete

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the gents with the large shields armed with spears were used a bit like Dopplesoldiers or Swiss Halberdiers. Obviously this is absolute speculation on  my part.

Worth looking into further though. Perhaps the odd few protecting the flanks of the Italian pike? Hmmmmmm......... ;) :)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 22, 2019, 10:14:29 PM
Horsing around on my Blog again  ;) ;D

It's just a few notes on how I plan to paint the mounts up and how I intend to go about it. Nothing major.

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/a-quick-note-on-painting-horses.html (https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/08/a-quick-note-on-painting-horses.html)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: syrinx0 on August 23, 2019, 12:28:16 AM
Real life can often interfere with the fun stuff.  Welcome back to painting.  Looking forward to your pictures.   
I really need to start painting socks on my horses, it adds a lot.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on August 23, 2019, 01:24:25 AM
True, my guess is Italian Infantry used similar tactics until the French and Swiss gave them a bit of a shock and that's why anything different is given a worthy mention such as Pike from the Romagna, Venetians at Agnadello, that's  if they did have pikes.  Now working out what the French and Spanish infantry formations looks like is a real challenge.  This Link from 1513 has some inspirational images including dismounted French archers https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique (https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105154498/f1.planchecontact.r=chronique)

cheers Pete
There was no shock from the French and Swiss, other than the occasional atrocities, and what was perpetuated by those with an agenda: Machiavelli and Guicciardini. The Risorgimento, like any nationalist movement, created tales to explain why Italy was disunited and prey for foreigners and fascists added to it. Then biased Anglophones, like Oman and Taylor, added their own spin and due to their books being in continuous print, have been relied on by gamers to perpetuate the notion that Italy was a backwater. It hasn't helped that sympathetic and knowledgeable professional historians, like Mallett and Caferro, have lazily perpetuated the same falsehoods: A pair of Hawkwood's dismounted men-at-arms wielding a single heavy lance, for instance - were they fighting dragons? lol Looking at Villani's original passage in Italian, it turns out each men-at-arms wielded a lance two handed, like they were hunting boars. Rather than being novel, it was the common way armored men fought on foot - illustrated in fighting manuals in the 1400s.

Early pike fighting was derived from wielding cut down lances on foot and according to John McCormack's One Million Mercenaries (https://www.amazon.com/One-Million-Mercenaries-John-McCormack/dp/0850523125), the Swiss adopted the pike from Italy: Italian militias had been wielding polearms of 10-15+ feet in massed formations - phalanxes instead of columns - for centuries, possibly an holdover from Byzantine times. I want to cover this in another thread, but for now I'll say this: pikes, wielded without a shield, started off as 10-12ft spears used dexterously, but by the end of the 1500s, had grown to 18ft+ and used in standardized formations. I forgot the battle, but in the late 1400s/early 1500s, the Venetians defeated Maximilian's Landsknechts by using longer pikes.     

(http://www.levantia.com.au/images/formation.jpg)

Rather than the new Romans as mentioned by Machiavelli, the Swiss acted like the Helvetii of old: massed columns requiring little maneuvering vs the Condottieri emulating Julius Caesar. 

1403–1495 – War with Milan
1422, 30 June    Battle of Arbedo    Arbedo    Duchy of Milan defeats confederates
1449, 6 July    Battle of Castione    Castione    Milan defeats Uri and Leventina
1478, 28 December    Battle of Giornico    Giornico    Confederates defeat Milan
1487, 28 April    Battle of Crevola    Crevola d'Ossola    Milan defeats Confederates and Valais

I mentioned why the Swiss won Giornico in my review of Le Rotelle Milanesi/Die Mailänder Rundschilde (Giornico 1478) (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=97578.msg1209259#msg1209259). 

The decline of communal militias and the move to professionals, didn't mean an abandonment of massed formations, just that condottieri warfare emphasized combined arms, light infantry, field fortifications and maneuver, in smaller groups over simple battles of attrition - anyone who was serious read their annotated copy of Vegetius (https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1293). Charles the Bold's military reforms were based on condottieri warfare, especially as he employed many Italians, but he was an awful general, so everyone thinks the Swiss were better! lol

Not to toot my horn, but see my posts about Agnadello 1509 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=117198.0). Troops from the Romagnole had a reputation, but they weren't the only ones who used pikes and in this battle they didn't take part, it was the Venetian militia who gave the French an hard time, until overwhelmed by numbers.   

The Italians favored an higher proportion of "shot" to pike, due to the former being of greater use on the offensive than the latter on the battlefield and on campaign. In the 1600s Century, the French shot, like the Italians in the 1500s, were used aggressively: shooting at close ranges, followed by charges wielding a sword or the musket butt as a club. In contrast, the pike was limited to the day of battle.     

Castagnaro 1387 (https://ospreypublishing.com/castagnaro-1387)

Quote
These crucial historical events notwithstanding, Hawkwood alone looms large in the modern imagery of Castagnaro. English and American authors - with Italian ones following - bear most of the blame. To this day Italy's developments in warfare in the Middle Ages are perceived by many historians to be, to an extent, backwards when compared to the rest of Europe (whereas the opposite is actually true). p.6

BTW, there were no carroccios at Castagnaro: according to the author it's a misunderstanding and mistranslation of the then Italian. The carroccio had disappeared from battlefields almost a century before. I mention this, as the Perry's have one with kneeling soldiers in mid 15th Century armor!

For the French, I recommend David Potter's Renaissance France at War: Armies, Culture and Society, c.1480-1560 (https://www.amazon.com/Renaissance-France-War-Culture-c-1480-1560/dp/1843834057).

For the Spanish, Osprey's The Spanish Tercios 1536-1704 (https://www.amazon.com/Spanish-Tercios-1536-1704-Men-at-Arms-Book/dp/1849087938). I know some here have reacted negatively to it, especially as it barely covers the 17th Century, but it's a decent introduction for the early period and there's some info on pre-Tercio formations.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on August 23, 2019, 01:38:01 AM
Yeah, it's likely 'Italian' tactics would have caught up with most of Mainland Europe by 1495.

Still, these pictures/links are very inspirational so please keep them coming  :-* :-* :-*

Kind Regards
It's the other way round... ;)

It's Massimo Predonzani's blog, the author of Anghiari 29 giugno 1440, Caravaggio 1448 and the forthcoming Fornovo book, and he's written several articles for the defunct History & Uniforms - see Agnadello link. 

La cavalleria del 1400 (https://stemmieimprese.it/2016/03/25/la-cavalleria-del-1400/)
La fanteria del 1400 (https://stemmieimprese.it/2016/04/13/la-fanteria-del-1400/)

His article on the Battle of San Romano 1432, is in History & Uniforms #7, and the Perry's based some of their Italians on the mid 1400s paintings.

La battaglia di Sommo o Cà del Secco presso Cremona 1427 (https://stemmieimprese.it/2011/01/16/51/)

(https://stemmieimprese.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/p2220.jpg)
Quote
i fanti di Agnolo della Pergola spingono i loro villici a riempire la fossa sotto il tiro dei veneziani

Loosely translates as Agnolo della Pergola's infantry driving villagers to fill in the Venetian ditch. >:D
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on August 23, 2019, 02:06:22 AM
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the gents with the large shields armed with spears were used a bit like Dopplesoldiers or Swiss Halberdiers. Obviously this is absolute speculation on  my part.

Worth looking into further though. Perhaps the odd few protecting the flanks of the Italian pike? Hmmmmmm......... ;) :)

Kind Regards
Those gents with various polearms covered the missile troops and in fluid condottieri warfare operated as assault infantry, along with sword and bucklermen. If you look at the 1448 Battle of Caravaggio, the Ambrosian Republic's forces under Francesco Sforza and the Venetians under his cousin Micheletto Attendolo, both sides operated from extensive entrenchments, reminiscent of those used in the 18th Century.

On an unrelated note, mentioned in Carol Kidwell's Marullus: Soldier Poet of the Renaissance (https://www.amazon.com/Marullus-Soldier-Renaissance-English-Latin/dp/0715625101/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9780715625101&linkCode=qs&qid=1566525393&s=books&sr=1-1), is the habit of landlocked Italian states deploying fleets of galleys via the extensive network of canals and rivers - Battle on the Po (1431) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_on_the_Po_(1431)).
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on August 23, 2019, 02:46:24 AM
La Disfida di Barletta e non solo (https://stemmieimprese.it/2011/02/22/la-disfida-di-barletta-e-non-solo/)

The Challenge of Barletta 1503 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_of_Barletta)

(https://stemmieimprese.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fig-1.jpg)(https://stemmieimprese.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fig-21.jpg)(https://stemmieimprese.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fig-3.jpg)(https://stemmieimprese.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fig-4.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on August 23, 2019, 02:58:08 AM
La battaglia di Poggio Imperiale (https://stemmieimprese.it/2011/03/03/la-battaglia-di-poggio-imperiale/)(1478)
(https://stemmieimprese.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/tav-4.jpg)
Quote
Tav.4 – Combattimento di fanti

È il momento dell’attacco di sorpresa al campo fiorentino. Sulla sinistra i fanti di Firenze indossano calze-brache alla divisa sforzesca e scudi o rotelle con emblemi fiorentini. Sulla destra incalzano i fanti della lega papale con brache e rotelle con i colori rosso e giallo d’Aragona o bianco e nero della repubblica di Siena.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 23, 2019, 06:12:45 AM
Wow! Thanks for the info and the plates Condottiere  8) 8) 8)

A wee bit to take in there! ;) :)

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on August 23, 2019, 07:24:22 AM
Condottiere,

Because of the 'missing' unknown number of heraldic devices present on both sides at Fornovo I will be bastardising some of the heraldry in the pics you have provided otherwise it would be impossible to cover all the nobility I would like.

If possible please keep the pictures coming as they are a fantastic resource.

Kind Regards
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 10, 2019, 05:40:28 AM
A quick post on my Gewalthaufen Blog about a forthcoming book that has got me all hot and bothered.  ;D

There will be a full review soon.

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-italian-wars-volume-1-expedition-of.html (https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-italian-wars-volume-1-expedition-of.html)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Charlie_ on October 10, 2019, 08:57:30 PM
I'll be very interested in that book, and how it compares with the (usually) fantastic Osprey Campaign series.

I'm also curious how they portray the armies of the 1490s - closer to what we'd call the Wars of the Roses look in terms of arms/armour, or closer to the recognisable Italian Wars look of a decade or so later (Landsknechts, beards, big hats etc)?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 10, 2019, 09:22:52 PM
I'll be very interested in that book, and how it compares with the (usually) fantastic Osprey Campaign series.

I'm also curious how they portray the armies of the 1490s - closer to what we'd call the Wars of the Roses look in terms of arms/armour, or closer to the recognisable Italian Wars look of a decade or so later (Landsknechts, beards, big hats etc)?

It's very much a mix of both although even armours change in a relatively short space of time, say from Stoke Field 1487 to Flodden in 1513! The styles of jacks changed along with the length of the "skirt"! On, that's just in England too!  lol

Having said that, I really don't want to put anyone off and it's an absolutely fascinating journey foraging through the information that is available in English.

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on October 11, 2019, 12:17:24 AM
A quick post on my Gewalthaufen Blog about a forthcoming book that has got me all hot and bothered.  ;D

There will be a full review soon.

https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-italian-wars-volume-1-expedition-of.html (https://gewalthaufen.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-italian-wars-volume-1-expedition-of.html)
The sequel will be out in July...

ATM, I'm waiting for some light reading: Courts and Courtly Arts in Renaissance Italy: Arts and Politics in the Early Modern Age (https://www.amazon.com/Courts-Courtly-Arts-Renaissance-Italy/dp/1851496432/ref=pd_ybh_a_8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Y06FF9X6WPF6ZTTDV9QA).

I recommend acquiring or borrowing this collection of papers: Italy and the European Powers: The Impact of War, 1500-1530 (https://www.amazon.com/Italy-European-Powers-1500-1530-History/dp/900415163X/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=)

Don't have this one yet, due to the price, but there's a Kindle version available on US Amazon for ~$47: The French Descent into Renaissance Italy, 1494–95: Antecedents and Effects (https://www.amazon.com/French-Descent-Renaissance-Italy-1494-95/dp/0860785505/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=french+descent+italy&qid=1570749349&sr=8-1) - not a fan of proprietary software, though I've heard of software being able to convert Kindle/Nook books into PDFs.

Some useful stuff about artillery: The Munitions of the Republic: Production, commerce, and management of materiel in Renaissance Florence (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116097.msg1452946#msg1452946). Charles VIII's artillery was evolutionary, not revolutionary and the main difference between the ordnance of French and the Italian states, was the former's better organization.

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 11, 2019, 06:22:14 AM
The sequel will be out in July...

Yeah, I know ;) I'm in contact with the editor.

ATM, I'm waiting for some light reading: Courts and Courtly Arts in Renaissance Italy: Arts and Politics in the Early Modern Age (https://www.amazon.com/Courts-Courtly-Arts-Renaissance-Italy/dp/1851496432/ref=pd_ybh_a_8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Y06FF9X6WPF6ZTTDV9QA).

Added to my list. I haven't looked yet but I hope I can get those papers below:

I recommend acquiring or borrowing this collection of papers: Italy and the European Powers: The Impact of War, 1500-1530 (https://www.amazon.com/Italy-European-Powers-1500-1530-History/dp/900415163X/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=)

Don't have this one yet, due to the price, but there's a Kindle version available on US Amazon for ~$47: The French Descent into Renaissance Italy, 1494–95: Antecedents and Effects (https://www.amazon.com/French-Descent-Renaissance-Italy-1494-95/dp/0860785505/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=french+descent+italy&qid=1570749349&sr=8-1) - not a fan of proprietary software, though I've heard of software being able to convert Kindle/Nook books into PDFs.

Some useful stuff about artillery: The Munitions of the Republic: Production, commerce, and management of materiel in Renaissance Florence (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116097.msg1452946#msg1452946). Charles VIII's artillery was evolutionary, not revolutionary and the main difference between the ordnance of French and the Italian states, was the former's better organization.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on October 12, 2019, 02:59:40 AM
The link to Munitions of the Republic leads to a free PDF containing the author's essays...

A selection of "coffee table" and specialized books I'd recommend...

Italian Hilltowns (https://archive.org/details/italianhilltowns00carv) by Norman F. Carver.

Full of gray scale photos and some color plates of traditional architecture from north to south and the islands. The last edition is from 1995 and it's the expanded version.

Florence the Golden Age, 1138-1737 (https://books.google.com/books/about/Florence_the_Golden_Age_1138_1737.html?id=GkJVrIJ7TWQC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false) by Gene A. Brucker

Siena: Constructing the Renaissance City (https://books.google.com/books?id=U5v2KrFA32YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=siena+building+the+medieval+city&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjel8uT0pXlAhWSc98KHeblB_YQ6AEwA3oECAQQAg#v=onepage&q=siena%20building%20the%20medieval%20city&f=false) by Fabrizio Nevola

Venice 697-1797: A City, A Republic, An Empire (https://books.google.com/books?id=NJRgQgAACAAJ&dq=venice+a+city+republic+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjxi-DK0pXlAhWsV98KHeyHBqEQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg) by Aluise Zorzi

Communication and Conflict: Italian Diplomacy in the Early Renaissance, 1350-1520 (https://books.google.com/books?id=2MVQCgAAQBAJ&dq=communication%20and%20conflict%20renaissance%20italy&source=gbs_book_other_versions) by Isabella Lazzarini

This is considered to be an update to Garrett Mattingly's Renaissance Diplomacy from the 1950s, though focused on Italy.

Italian Renaissance Diplomacy: A Sourcebook (https://books.google.com/books?id=VzosMQAACAAJ&dq=italian+renaissance+diplomacy+sourcebook&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjM1cqI1JXlAhUph-AKHYkMAK8Q6AEwAHoECAIQAg) by Isabella Lazzarini and Monica Azzolini

The Italian Renaissance State (https://www.amazon.com/Italian-Renaissance-State-Andrea-Gamberini/dp/1107010128/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1570846870&sr=1-1) Editors: Andrea Gamberini and Isabella Lazzarini.

The Politics of Exile in Renaissance Italy (https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Politics_of_Exile_in_Renaissance_Ita.html?id=0hNwZhZx6oQC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false) by Christine Shaw

Castles in Italy: The Medieval Life of Noble Families (https://books.google.com/books?id=M4gTAQAAIAAJ&q=castles+in+italy+the+medieval+life+of+noble+families&dq=castles+in+italy+the+medieval+life+of+noble+families&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzk--U2pXlAhXNg-AKHVL9Ab8Q6AEwAHoECAAQAg) by Clemente Manenti

The Castles of Friuli: History and Civilization (https://books.google.com/books?id=RTARAgAACAAJ&dq=the+castles+of+friuli&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuhbLF2pXlAhWKTd8KHZRYAYoQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg) by Christoph Ulmer

City and Countryside in Late Medieval and Renaissance Italy: Essays Presented to Philip Jones (https://books.google.com/books?id=YYGxAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Sparrow on October 12, 2019, 05:01:50 AM
Cheers for the book recs - really useful!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 12, 2019, 07:27:23 AM
Cheers for the book recs - really useful!

Indeed  8).

Condottiere, I am very much appreciative of all your posts and other communications- it's a great help even though I sometimes find it hard to keep up  :)

My mind is on a lot of things at present but keep all the info, links and messages coming- it is of great help to me.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on October 13, 2019, 03:11:25 AM
It's shame nothing comparable exists for Milan...

Christine Shaw's The Politics of Exile in Renaissance Italy focuses on the 15th Century, while Randolph Starn's Contrary Commonwealth: The Theme of Exile in Medieval and Renaissance Italy (https://books.google.com/books/about/Contrary_Commonwealth.html?id=jj_w3HUBW8AC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false) covers the earlier period, with everything after the 14th as almost an afterthought. I agree with Shaw's disagreement in the introduction with Starn's assertion that there was a decline in exiles with the increasing size of the Italian States. In fact, the number of exiles increased by the end of the 15th Century and it was the faction from the Neapolitan Kingdom, with Marullus among them, who convinced Charles VIII to march down the peninsula - in the case of the Greek Stradiot, it was the vain hope of an eventual crusade to liberate European territories.

If you looked at the drawing of the late 15th Century Italian armor with the 'Devil's Mask' (p.39 Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500) and wanted more information , Lionello Giorgio Boccia wrote about it in Art, Arms and Armour: An International Anthology, VOL.1, 1979-1980 (http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1269). Unfortunately, only one volume was ever published, despite the optimistic claims in the introduction. It can be found used for $50 or less and has a few other period relevant articles.

I would also suggest Robert Held's previous series, again only a single volume was published: Arms and Armor Annual, Vol.1. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12461)

(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61495&stc=1)(http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=61496&stc=1)

(http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/media/images/product/display_1269_ART__ARMS_AND_ARMOUR-AN_INTERNATIONAL_ANTHOLOGY_VOL_1__634383171313949441.jpg)



Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 13, 2019, 07:41:50 AM
I cannot find a copy in the UK :(
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on October 15, 2019, 03:26:58 AM
A Depiction of an Italian Arming Doublet, c1435-45 (https://legaitalica1454.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/arming-doublet_by-toby-capwell.pdf)

Arming doublet of the 15th century (http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.21451.html)

In the Benedictine monastery of Monte Oliveto Maggiorre there's a series of frescoes depicting the life of St Benedict begun by Luca Signorelli in 1498 and completed by Giovanni Antonio Bazzi aka Il Sodoma in1502 or 1506. There are few scenes depicting late 15th/early 16th Century soldiers, excluding classicized elements. In Osprey Fornovo 1495, pages 27 and 32 shows 2 images: one of Totila mounting his horse by Il Sodoma and the other by Luca Signorelli with light cavalry and infantry. Ellen W. Boswell Schiefers thesis Miracle at Monte Oliveto Renaissance Benedictine Ideals and Humanist Pictorial Ideals in Perspective (https://etd.ohiolink.edu/rws_etd/document/get/ucin1337363195/inline) contains color plates of the scenes. Comparisons with Carpaccio's St. Ursula Cycle and others, Totila is shown in late 15th/early 16th Century Italian armor. It's easy to dismiss the light cavalry and infantry as landsknechts, but comparisons with Carpaccio's depiction of hair styles, the upper and lower hose with extensive use of straight and wavy stripes, helmets and brigandine, indicates Italians or at least ones from Northern Italy and Tuscany.

An Overview of Men’s Clothing in Northern Italy c. 1420 - 1480 (http://www.houseofpung.net/sca/15c_mens_italian.pdf)

(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/DSCF4361.JPG)

I don't think barbutas were as common as open faced sallets, but the mazzocchio (https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2012/bridges2012-433.pdf), despite being depicted in the Paolo Uccello's the Battle of San Romano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_of_San_Romano) was never as ubiquitous as on figures. Going with Susan Downs Reed's From Chaperones to Chaplets: Aspects of Men’s Headdress, 1400-1519 (https://nachtanz.org/SReed/thesis/sdreedthesis.pdf), various types of cloth circlets were in use throughout Europe in various periods, though the type referred to as a rondelle(mazzocchio?) fell out of fashion by the beginning of the 1460s, if I correctly understood the chart. Like in the former Eastern Roman Empire, various types of turbans or turban like headgear was popular in some periods - The Turban’d Turk in Renaissance Mantua: Francesco II Gonzaga’s Interest in Ottoman Fashion (https://www.academia.edu/19815450/_The_Turban_d_Turk_in_Renaissance_Mantua_Francesco_II_Gonzaga_s_Interest_in_Ottoman_Fashion_in_Mantova_e_il_Rinascimento_italiano._Studi_in_onore_di_David_S._Chambers_ed._Philippa_Jackson_and_Guido_Rebecchini._Mantua_Sometti_Editoriale_2011_53-64). Hats won't matter for helmeted figures, but would add some greenstuffed variety to the odd figure, so one doesn't just have to rely on these:

(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/ea/ea_7.jpg)   
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 15, 2019, 06:47:06 AM
Thanks again Condottiere!

I love the article and Gonzaga's interest in Ottoman dress and especially the 'turban'.

When it comes to the Fornovo game I will certainly be adding a vignette depicting him wearing such a turban. Perhaps as he's being armed for battle. It would make a great scene :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on October 15, 2019, 06:47:42 AM
EDITED: Double post.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on November 02, 2019, 02:04:58 AM
Thanks again Condottiere!

I love the article and Gonzaga's interest in Ottoman dress and especially the 'turban'.

When it comes to the Fornovo game I will certainly be adding a vignette depicting him wearing such a turban. Perhaps as he's being armed for battle. It would make a great scene :)

Be sure to yell "Turco, Turco!" when charging or probably not... lol

More on Mantuan and Ottoman relations: More than a Messenger: Embodied Expertise in Mantuan Envoys to the Ottomans (https://www.academia.edu/15538535/More_than_a_Messenger_Embodied_Expertise_in_Mantuan_Envoys_to_the_Ottomans?email_work_card=title)

Regarding medals:

Ludovico Gonzaga and Pisanello: A Visual Campaign, Political Legitimacy, and Crusader Ideology (https://www.academia.edu/10936378/Ludovico_Gonzaga_and_Pisanello_A_Visual_Campaign_Political_Legitimacy_and_Crusader_Ideology)

Pisanello, Chivalric Dwarfs, and the Princely Condottiere Medal (https://www.academia.edu/3407175/_Pisanello_Chivalric_Dwarfs_and_the_Princely_Condottiere_Medal_)

Would've been nice to have at least a drawing of the purchased turbans in the Gonzaga armory - what's the size, shape and color? According to The Coverings of an Empire: An Examination of Ottoman Headgear from 1500 to 1829 (http://cupola.gettysburg.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1182&context=student_scholarship), should it be blue, marking Francesco II as a Christian? Since it was made in Venice, it might've been any color.

Despite its perceived exoticness, I'm surprised there was some confusion over the name, as the pictures in Venetian Narrative Painting in the Age of Carpaccio (https://books.google.com/books/about/Venetian_Narrative_Painting_in_the_Age_o.html?id=RQM5JjFqlmsC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) show, it was ubiquitous in biblical scenes and there's the painting of the Venetian ambassadors to the Mamluks. Though never regarded as properly Roman, turbans have been worn by Byzantine civilians and military since the 6th/7th  Century - By the Emperor’s Hand: Military Dress and Court Regalia in the Later Romano-Byzantine Empire (https://books.google.com/books?id=KamgCgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=by+the+emperor%27s+hand&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvvZ7GtcrlAhXms1kKHROPBGkQ6AEwAHoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q=by%20the%20emperor's%20hand&f=false).

Here's a reconstruction of Vlad the Impaler as an Ottoman vassal (Military Illustrated #30, Nov. 1990):




Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on November 02, 2019, 07:34:21 AM
Condottiere,

What publication are the colour plates taken from?

Angus MacBride, yeah?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on November 02, 2019, 05:32:44 PM
Condottiere,

What publication are the colour plates taken from?

Angus MacBride, yeah?
It's a two part article titled 'Dracula' and his Contemporaries: 15th Century Balkan War Leaders by David Nicolle(parts 1&2) and David Windrow(only credited in part 1) and paintings by Angus McBride - Military Illustrated #30, Nov. 1990 and #31, Dec. 1990. This is from back when Military Illustrated had articles worth reading - the back cover of #31 has a tobacco ad with a warning!   
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on November 02, 2019, 06:49:26 PM
It's a two part article titled 'Dracula' and his Contemporaries: 15th Century Balkan War Leaders by David Nicolle(parts 1&2) and David Windrow(only credited in part 1) and paintings by Angus McBride - Military Illustrated #30, Nov. 1990 and #31, Dec. 1990. This is from back when Military Illustrated had articles worth reading - the back cover of #31 has a tobacco ad with a warning!

Thanks mate.... I stopped smoking years ago so I'm probably safe  ;D :D
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on November 09, 2019, 03:34:22 AM
AFAIK, hard copies are difficult to find of this Italian and French book, but a digital version is available at 37 Euros or individual articles at 6 Euros:  La battaglia nel Rinascimento meridionale : moduli narrativi tra parole e immagini (https://www.torrossa.com/it/resources/an/2644984)

If I'm not mistaken, a translated version is here: https://www.viella.it/libro/9788883344916 (https://www.viella.it/libro/9788883344916) - The abstract for each article is in English.

Google translation of the back cover:
Quote
Between the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, Southern Italy became the theater of the clash between the dynasties that disputed the possession of the Kingdom, and with it of the central Mediterranean: first the Angevin and Aragonese ruling houses, then the nascent national monarchies of France and Spain, but even local authorities, hostile to all forms of centralization, gave rise to a long series of battles: more than thirty scholars from various nations and different scientific fields (historians, classical and humanist philologists, Italianists, historians of the Italian language, of art, architecture and miniature) have investigated the vast literary and artistic documentation produced around these war events. Described in miniatures, in frescoes, in tapestries, in bronze or in marble, in the polished Latin of the humanists or in the blunted vulgarity of the ambassadors, in the masterpieces of Machiavelli or Guicciardini, the battles provide an interesting key to a deeper knowledge of the southern Renaissance. The focus of the investigation is not so much the battles in themselves, although reconstructed here, but their different narratives, where the actual progress of the war event often ends up being concealed through a progressive shift from factus to fictus.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on November 09, 2019, 08:51:14 AM
AFAIK, hard copies are difficult to find of this Italian and French book, but a digital version is available at 37 Euros or individual articles at 6 Euros:  La battaglia nel Rinascimento meridionale : moduli narrativi tra parole e immagini (https://www.torrossa.com/it/resources/an/2644984)

If I'm not mistaken, a translated version is here: https://www.viella.it/libro/9788883344916 (https://www.viella.it/libro/9788883344916) - The abstract for each article is in English.

Google translation of the back cover:

Looks great. And very informative, It's really just what I need but it is quite expensive even for just the download. I'm going to have to bookmark it and pay at a later date  :'(
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Admiral Alder on November 14, 2019, 12:11:47 AM
Atheling and Condottiere - thank you for sharing these excellent resources. I hope to follow your Fornovo project with interest.

I've got a fair few Perry plastics, but I'm not having much joy in finding decent flags for the Venetians as there's only one provided in the European mercenaries box, and I'd want one for a hand gun unit, one for the swordsmen, stradiots, light horse, MAA, crossbows, and pikemen, possibly even a bill armed unit. Any suggestions for flags and heraldry beyond the lion of St Mark?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Malatesta on November 14, 2019, 01:33:16 AM
... I'm not having much joy in finding decent flags for the Venetians as there's only one provided in the European mercenaries box, and I'd want one for a hand gun unit, one for the swordsmen, stradiots, light horse, MAA, crossbows, and pikemen, possibly even a bill armed unit. Any suggestions for flags and heraldry beyond the lion of St Mark?

Start here (it's in Italian, but google can automatically translate it for you): http://stemmieimprese.it/2018/11/24/le-bandiere-veneziane-conquistate-dagli-svizzeri-nella-battaglia-di-agnadello-e-conservate-nel-museo-di-appenzell/#more-1527

Italian Wars blog (Pete's Flags): http://thegreatitalianwars.blogspot.com/search?q=venetian

Hope it helps.

John


Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on January 09, 2020, 06:08:19 PM
Yarkshire Gamer's Book Review - The Italian Wars Pt 1 Helion Publishing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9nW-RgAbr8&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on January 09, 2020, 07:18:28 PM
Yarkshire Gamer's Book Review - The Italian Wars Pt 1 Helion Publishing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9nW-RgAbr8&feature=youtu.be)

Yeah, thanks, I've seen the vid.

I'm waiting for Charles (Head honcho at Helion) so send me a couple of books for review but he's been a bit under the weather of late thus the delay.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on January 10, 2020, 03:04:52 AM
Yeah, thanks, I've seen the vid.

I'm waiting for Charles (Head honcho at Helion) so send me a couple of books for review but he's been a bit under the weather of late thus the delay.
I only saw six color plates in the video and two more on his blog. It's better than Turnbull's Tanaka book - one color plate on the cover and the rest public domain images!

I wonder if the Swiss are depicted dressed like in the Cronaca di Partenope, S. 243, 'Entry of the Swiss into Naples in 1498':

(https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/M-Apr00-Fornovo-2.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Condottiere on January 10, 2020, 03:21:14 AM
Having sacked the French baggage train at Fornovo, the stradiotti came across Charles' book of portraits, probably erotica, according to David Nicolle, sexual conquests or even the equivalent of fun time cards one would encounter in phone booths. According to John Gagné, it wasn't that simple: Collecting Women: Three French Kings and Manuscripts of Empire in the Italian Wars (https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/691389). Speaking of stratioti, Stathis Birtachas's paper concerns these Balkan mercenaries and Italian historiography and literature of the time: La memoria degli stradioti nella letteratura italiana del tardo Rinascimento (https://www.academia.edu/2770159/La_memoria_degli_stradioti_nella_letteratura_italiana_del_tardo_Rinascimento). Wouter Kreuze's thesis focuses on Italian national awareness: Italy and the Italians: The identity of Italy in the letters between the Sforza, Gonzaga and Estensi during the first stage of the Italian Wars 1494-95 (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/58613/REMA%20SCRIPTIE%20WP%20KREUZE.pdf?sequence=1).   

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on January 10, 2020, 06:55:38 AM
I only saw six color plates in the video and two more on his blog. It's better than Turnbull's Tanaka book - one color plate on the cover and the rest public domain images!

I wonder if the Swiss are depicted dressed like in the Cronaca di Partenope, S. 243, 'Entry of the Swiss into Naples in 1498':

(https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/M-Apr00-Fornovo-2.jpg)

I couldn't tell you as of yet though I would expect so. I've managed to misplace the Pdf that Charles sent as my laptop crashed before I'd saved it and I cannot find the email in Gmail..... the books haven't arrived as of yet :(

Having sacked the French baggage train at Fornovo, the stradiotti came across Charles' book of portraits, probably erotica, according to David Nicolle, sexual conquests or even the equivalent of fun time cards one would encounter in phone booths. According to John Gagné, it wasn't that simple: Collecting Women: Three French Kings and Manuscripts of Empire in the Italian Wars (https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/691389). Speaking of stratioti, Stathis Birtachas's paper concerns these Balkan mercenaries and Italian historiography and literature of the time: La memoria degli stradioti nella letteratura italiana del tardo Rinascimento (https://www.academia.edu/2770159/La_memoria_degli_stradioti_nella_letteratura_italiana_del_tardo_Rinascimento). Wouter Kreuze's thesis focuses on Italian national awareness: Italy and the Italians: The identity of Italy in the letters between the Sforza, Gonzaga and Estensi during the first stage of the Italian Wars 1494-95 (https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/58613/REMA%20SCRIPTIE%20WP%20KREUZE.pdf?sequence=1).   

Funnily enough, I've been in touch with a chap who's descended from a Stradioti lineage in Italy.

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on January 10, 2020, 06:56:40 AM
EDIT: The server has gone nuts!  lol
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: pete17 on January 10, 2020, 09:04:34 AM
Hi Darrel there's a good picture of Virginio Orsini's troops in 1491 from a fresco originally from the the Orsini castle at Bracciano.  Here's the link to the image:

 https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/4QHZuDpt3FeaPw?ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.4433745091975124%2C%22y%22%3A0.5602020927768535%2C%22B%22%3A13%2C%22z%22%3A13%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A0.12858108108108107%2C%22height%22%3A0.2196792737649662%7D%7D (https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/4QHZuDpt3FeaPw?ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.4433745091975124%2C%22y%22%3A0.5602020927768535%2C%22B%22%3A13%2C%22z%22%3A13%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A0.12858108108108107%2C%22height%22%3A0.2196792737649662%7D%7D)

the image can be blown up to show all sorts of details and there are some light lancers in the background some of whom appear to be carrying shields

cheers, Pete
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: malto cortese on January 10, 2020, 09:25:15 AM
May I add to the list of readings the wonderful Firearms and Fortifications. Military Architecture and Siege Warfare in Sixteenth-Century Siena by Simon Pepper and Nicholas Adams? It deals with a slightly later period - from the 1530s to the last days of the Republic, which fell in 1555 (or 1559 if you count the fall of Montalcino) - but tells in great detail the story of the impact of the evolution of firearms on the fortifications of the time, as well as the story of the war between the republic of Siena and Charles the V and his lackey Cosimo
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on January 10, 2020, 12:31:37 PM
Hi Darrel there's a good picture of Virginio Orsini's troops in 1491 from a fresco originally from the the Orsini castle at Bracciano.  Here's the link to the image:

 https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/4QHZuDpt3FeaPw?ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.4433745091975124%2C%22y%22%3A0.5602020927768535%2C%22B%22%3A13%2C%22z%22%3A13%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A0.12858108108108107%2C%22height%22%3A0.2196792737649662%7D%7D (https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/4QHZuDpt3FeaPw?ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.4433745091975124%2C%22y%22%3A0.5602020927768535%2C%22B%22%3A13%2C%22z%22%3A13%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A0.12858108108108107%2C%22height%22%3A0.2196792737649662%7D%7D)

the image can be blown up to show all sorts of details and there are some light lancers in the background some of whom appear to be carrying shields

cheers, Pete

Thanks Pete. That's an amazing painting and one that i wasn't actually aware of  8)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Pike- Page 5- 10/05/2021
Post by: Atheling on May 10, 2021, 06:15:03 AM
After an incredibly slow start; it must be nigh on a decade! I came to the conclusion that if this project was going to get anywhere then I would have to get a meaningful wriggle on and have to speed paint the rank and file  for Fornovo 1495.

I have it a test a few days ago and managed to get eight done in one sitting, this does not include cleaning up the mini's, priming, undercoating and varnishing so, just the painting.

The pike are on a 60mm frontage by 50mm deep base. This is the first base of two back ranks who will have their pikes upright as they march. I wanted to keep the pike block reasonably tightly packed but to leave room for the first and second row of bases who's pikes will gradually be lowered from "port" to levelled. The Front ranks of bases will be based on a 110mm x 60mm base to accommadate the pikes.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--cnhiD5Zvow/YJgSD9i83iI/AAAAAAABGaI/5ktXakOBuZMMncX8Hg06a9HlnVXOx0T_QCLcBGAsYHQ/s772/SWISS%2BBASE%2B1A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Bs574wW1CUA/YJgSD0g9MEI/AAAAAAABGaM/dwSWr1bHgZkuWisw9pNyY6ViHbnTe9eRACLcBGAsYHQ/s797/SWISS%2BBASE%2B1B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-01ZEP7F94WM/YJgSD5H-KOI/AAAAAAABGaQ/wZvl5WfYSXMbD7xk6X2Qup4FKEDQ2QMegCLcBGAsYHQ/s808/SWISS%2BBASE%2B1C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LKSotZzafNA/YJgSEjmsaeI/AAAAAAABGaY/s4TTedtTTIE_gt6bK80L2wvyxFbGdkA_QCLcBGAsYHQ/s886/SWISS%2BBASE%2B1E.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VZ8T2ZSnT4s/YJgSEZJVlcI/AAAAAAABGaU/P8nxKwVUSIIXwPPXrDzBeENFdMd4dGzHQCLcBGAsYHQ/s842/SWISS%2BBASE%2B1D.jpg)

A also managed to get four horses for the Stradiots completed and another three glossed. Iyt will be about a week before they see any matt varnish. Again, all speed painted.

All the command and vignette bases will be given as lavish a paintjob as I can muster, but as i have already pointed out, if tis project is ever to take shape then it is a must to speed paint the rank and file.

Gloss (Yuk!):
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cjPO_bZ-_es/YJgTA7jUGxI/AAAAAAABGas/S_7oelKTU_whrCOIgGUFICslO3Byj4H1ACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/STRADIOT%2BHORSE%2B1A.jpg)

Four Nicely Matted Down Examples of Horseflesh:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6MhHTjI9TPk/YJgTUwDfTfI/AAAAAAABGa4/HWqPKzGqUFsQETCMWtVWn4OltWwAnlalwCLcBGAsYHQ/s900/STRADIOT%2BHORSE%2B1B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5O1rbqdExTY/YJgTUxAnc1I/AAAAAAABGa0/41YcpLK4dJ00gXnPkT76G81NFLMnBGZ4wCLcBGAsYHQ/s900/STRADIOT%2BHORSE%2B1C.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Lord Raglan on May 10, 2021, 06:21:06 AM
Awesome mate, glad to see you are back in the Italian Wars saddle 👍
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Roo on May 10, 2021, 06:38:27 AM
Speed painting?... still sweet as chap!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: fred on May 10, 2021, 06:39:46 AM
They look cracking, speed painted or not
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on May 10, 2021, 08:28:33 AM
Thank you Roo and Fred :)

Speed painting?

One sitting to get them painted. I didn't time it but I will do so with the next batch. It will be useful to know how much time i actually spent painting as it's going to be a bit of a mammoth project.

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 10, 2021, 09:16:05 AM
Lovely painting on those pikemen.  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on May 10, 2021, 12:02:47 PM
Cheers Hu Rhu.

I'm starting more this evening so I might have a whole back rank by the end of the day. Fingers crossed :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: MGH on May 10, 2021, 03:07:53 PM
They look amazing for speed painting!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on May 10, 2021, 04:05:42 PM
They look amazing for speed painting!

After priming and a black undercoat, it's just colour basecoat, mixed washes (Vallejo Game Colour Washes are great as they mix exceptionally well) and finally highlight again. It's deceptively simple.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Pike- Page 5- 10/05/2021
Post by: Admiral Alder on May 10, 2021, 05:24:58 PM
A also managed to get four horses for the Stradiots completed and another three glossed. Iyt will be about a week before they see any matt varnish. Again, all speed painted.

Your work is inspirational!  :o Really interested to see your Stradiots, haven't been completely blown away by the Redoubt Games ones in my collection so far.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Pike- Page 5- 10/05/2021
Post by: Atheling on May 10, 2021, 06:37:23 PM
Your work is inspirational!  :o Really interested to see your Stradiots, haven't been completely blown away by the Redoubt Games ones in my collection so far.

Thanks you Admiral! :)

The Redoubt range has character but I fear that it isn't up to the standard of many ranges these days. That's not to say that it's a bad range, it isn't; just that it is a little dated. :)

Redoubt have a lot of ECW vignette stuff that I'm craving for as I am starting down that road too!  o_o 8)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Atheling on May 11, 2021, 12:20:46 PM
Yesterdays Speed Painting goings On.....

More pics and the usual waffle on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/stradiots-last-evenings-painterly-doings.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/stradiots-last-evenings-painterly-doings.html)


Stadioti
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sy_wDAPqXws/YJnC_d8Nt_I/AAAAAAABGbk/mC3GOXVsBD4QHyNAyF7jqlyGlMntJZ2CQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/STRADIOTS%2B1A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eXnvX3B-wLc/YJnC_n-i3AI/AAAAAAABGbo/fsdc24Mlnk40N6CWIYA_cmzo7vJr8YtEACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/STRADIOTS%2B2A.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 11, 2021, 03:10:54 PM
They look great! Great work on the bold colours!

Rookie question but are they all Perry figures?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 11, 2021, 03:14:00 PM
They look great! Great work on the bold colours!

Thanks Happychappy. I use a mix of washed from the Vallejo Game colour range (and the Army Painter water based "tones" to some extent) which gives quite a vivid effect.

Rookie question but are they all Perry figures?

Yeah, all from their European Armies range.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 11, 2021, 07:30:44 PM
I just love those Stradiots.  Wonderful painting, so crisp and clean.  :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 11, 2021, 07:38:10 PM
I just love those Stradiots.  Wonderful painting, so crisp and clean.  :-* :-* :-* :-*

Thanks Hu Rhu. Dare I say, deceptively crisp  ???

Eg. I base coated and washed the padded armour then highlighted the raised parts of the linen sharpish. Then painted in the recesses in the padded armour again with the same wash used to darken it over the first coat. at the moment I'm looking for "cheats" for the rank and file of this army. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of miniatures to be painted and if I'm ever going tg get the damn things on the table....

I'm going to put a lot more effort into the command bases and vignettes as they tend to catch the eye. :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Charlie_ on May 11, 2021, 09:26:18 PM
This is looking great. I look forward to seeing them in their hundreds and hundreds!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 11, 2021, 10:00:03 PM
This is looking great. I look forward to seeing them in their hundreds and hundreds!

Me too!

At six to eight a miniatures a day, I'm not going to even think about the length of time it is going to take!  lol Meh, time will tell :)

The Swiss pike block alone will 128 miniatures strong and pretty much 100% metals!  :o

That's on (admittedly large) unit out of 20 or 30! A big game ;) :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Captain Blood on May 11, 2021, 10:09:31 PM
Looking good!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Ockius on May 12, 2021, 07:46:59 AM
Love the stradiots! They have inspired me to finally get some for my 15mm Italian Wars forces.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 12, 2021, 08:31:12 AM
Thanks Richard and Ocius.

Love the stradiots! They have inspired me to finally get some for my 15mm Italian Wars forces.

They are such a colourful unit and in many ways they really stand out in the armies in Italy of the period.

What manufactuer were you thinking of? I don't know that much about the 15mm game but I'm considering possibly putting together a L'Art de la Guerre/Mortem et Glorium in 15 mil army at some point. Would you recommend any other rules for the Late 15th C?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: bigredbat on May 12, 2021, 11:21:35 AM
Super Stradiots!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: majorsmith on May 12, 2021, 12:07:22 PM
Those stradiots are lovely!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 12, 2021, 12:18:49 PM
Super Stradiots!

Cheers Simon, they were a lot of fun to paint. Had a bit of an school boy error accident yesterday and dropped a pan on my hand (I know!  o_o) so the painting is a little slower then usual for yesterday and today.

Should have eight more Swiss in swanky "Free Company" dress similar to those featured in the artwork of The Italian Wars Volume 1, The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo finished tonight with any luck  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 12, 2021, 12:19:20 PM
Those stradiots are lovely!

Thanks Majorsmith  :)

Super Stradiots!

Cheers Simon, they were a lot of fun to paint. Had a bit of an school boy error accident yesterday and dropped a pan on my hand (I know!  o_o) so the painting is a little slower then usual for yesterday and today.

Should have eight more Swiss in swanky "Free Company" dress similar to those featured in the artwork of The Italian Wars Volume 1, The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo finished tonight with any luck  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Ockius on May 12, 2021, 05:28:20 PM
Thanks Richard and Ocius.

They are such a colourful unit and in many ways they really stand out in the armies in Italy of the period.

What manufactuer were you thinking of? I don't know that much about the 15mm game but I'm considering possibly putting together a L'Art de la Guerre/Mortem et Glorium in 15 mil army at some point. Would you recommend any other rules for the Late 15th C?
I think I might go with Mirliton as I could then also get some of their very nice Italian infantry with the big shields (discussed at very illuminating length earlier in this thread - I was reading it all earlier today!)
In terms of rules, I have limited experience and have only used Pike and Shotte, which I felt was nice and straightforward but needed modifications to army lists (which is very easy and encouraged by the writers). We used it as we were familiar with Hail Caesar and it’s similar to that.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Sirolf on May 12, 2021, 07:03:43 PM
Amazing work Atheling, can't wait to see more of it!!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 12, 2021, 09:40:11 PM
Amazing work Atheling, can't wait to see more of it!!

Me too! As I said earlier, yesterday I dropped a bloomin' pan on my painting hand! I don't think anything is broken but I'm giving until tomorrow just on case. It's nice and bruised, hurts but nothing is wonky  lol
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yesterdays Painting- Stradiosi P. 5- 11/05/21
Post by: Sirolf on May 15, 2021, 04:53:50 PM
Some ice and hydrocortisone and you'll be back painting in no time 👍🏼

Me too! As I said earlier, yesterday I dropped a bloomin' pan on my painting hand! I don't think anything is broken but I'm giving until tomorrow just on case. It's nice and bruised, hurts but nothing is wonky  lol
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 16, 2021, 10:46:15 AM
Some ice and hydrocortisone and you'll be back painting in no time 👍🏼

Thanks Sirolf.

I'm more or less back in the saddle now.....

More Swiss though they took longer as I had to wait for the swelling in my hand to subside then caught quite a brutal "cold". At least I hope it was a cold.

As usual, more pics and my reasoning for the painting and modelling can be found on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/swiss-mercenary-band-types.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/swiss-mercenary-band-types.html)


Swiss Mercenary Band Types
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-I3mi-y9SETs/YKDlaUBBr6I/AAAAAAABGeE/bIyEtRIuEN81cc2zMgYN6Xbw2oRNnAdqQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SWISS%2B1A.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sNfzTrPXjvo/YKDlbHkYI2I/AAAAAAABGeM/wQdSjtpZijYN8HjKhoUMXIAoWCa3_bhGwCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/SWISS%2B1D.JPG)

Based on the artwork of Massimo Predonzani illustrator of the recent book, The Italian Wars Volume 1, The Expedition of Charles VIII into Italy and the Battle of Fornovo
.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J0lcs6kcIEg/YKDjtPHb-8I/AAAAAAABGd4/5i9dQeXRc501FZTBYuL1n09BJg-fWeoDwCLcBGAsYHQ/s645/51DBqQmUiyL.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: bluewillow on May 16, 2021, 11:42:37 AM
Like them mate
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 16, 2021, 03:51:53 PM
Like them mate

Thanks Matt. Slow progress this week but picking up speed again :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: OSHIROmodels on May 16, 2021, 03:58:03 PM
Lovely work  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: Warboss Nick on May 16, 2021, 08:03:36 PM
Good to hear you‘re well again, both regarding hand and cold. That sure sounds like a scare.

Lovely on your Swiss, it’s Good to see you’re making progress with your project. I know how daunting those Swiss pike blocks can be (and my largest is only 40 strong) but it sure is worth it.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 16, 2021, 11:11:35 PM
More lovely miniatures.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Swiss Mercenary Band Types P. 7- 16/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 17, 2021, 05:13:02 AM
Thanks chaps.

Good to hear you‘re well again, both regarding hand and cold. That sure sounds like a scare.

It was.

Lovely on your Swiss, it’s Good to see you’re making progress with your project. I know how daunting those Swiss pike blocks can be (and my largest is only 40 strong) but it sure is worth it.

I'm going to need 3 x 64 man units for what I have planned and that's just for the Swiss! So, a heck of a long way to go yet and that's just for the Swiss thus the speeded up painting  lol

Nothing concrete as of yet but I seem to be slowly migrating to from Fornovo to Cerignola. Until I've made a concrete decision I'm going to be painting up miniatures that are of use for both battles!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 23, 2021, 03:12:36 PM
First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit fully tarted up and ready for action, sort of.....

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PnNvzna6jGk/YKpinz3hvSI/AAAAAAABGkQ/We3TNQYfNVo9C_-dYfnZUba5ZHxsVc4qgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/STRADIOT%2BUNIT%2BEYE%2BLEVEL1A.jpg)

Pics galore of the units from various angles and all of the single bases as well as the usual questionable historical waffle on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/first-stradiotstradioti-unit.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/first-stradiotstradioti-unit.html)


This unit is in the service of Venice and bears the Standard of St Mark. The tails of the banner have been cut off as, at least to my eyes, it would have looked way to big for a lightly armed cavalry unit. The Standard of St Mark is from Pete at Pete's Flags. Pete produces the most beautiful banners available from the mid Fifteenth Century Condottiero, The Italian Wars, the Tudor Wars of Henry VIII and the Wars of the Roses. They are all mini works of art and if you are at all interested in this period of warfare I highly recommend you pop over to the link below and check his work out.

Pete's Flags:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/petes_flags/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/petes_flags/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=)

I have plans for 36 Stradioti in six units of three bases, each base with two miniatures. The bases are simply the same size as the pike bases but turned through 90 degrees to leave enough wiggle room to stagger the models.  Every second unit will be given a banner. The next one will be bearing the arms of Piedro Diodo which were very kindly supplied to my by one of his descendants in Northern Italy (I have stupidly forgotten your name; I'm really sorry- I had to delete some emails to avoid googlemail charging me for space so if you're reading this please contact me and I will happily add in your name). The third banner will be another Standard of St Mark with the tail removed again.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pO63Vlvztxg/YKph6CR9YII/AAAAAAABGjw/EE1ltMazcn4TUt0sZvaH6WMCliWtiB_nQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/STRADIOT%2BUNIT%2B1A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0RJ5ledMqnY/YKpiI7HyLrI/AAAAAAABGj4/yXDw_KBRq88paOghRGjjxFVWVmvuZfOcwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/STRADIOT%2BUNIT%2B1B.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MhXNMVvVygI/YKpiI-XagFI/AAAAAAABGj8/Fpa3atdC0QI5vbGWzd8JoZWwFICdV1n_wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/STRADIOT%2BUNIT%2B1C.jpg)

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 23, 2021, 03:17:12 PM
They look really impressive arrayed up! (And appropriately colourful!  :D )

How did you decide on the shield designs/patterning for them? If you don't mind me asking
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 23, 2021, 03:43:16 PM
They look really impressive arrayed up! (And appropriately colourful!  :D )

Thanks matey

How did you decide on the shield designs/patterning for them? If you don't mind me asking

They're not specific pieces as far as I know, but were heavily influenced by John Bianchi's painting and research from the Vlad WAB supplement. It's actually one of the more useful of the WAB supplements in terms of Eastern European Heraldry. John's also emailed me quite a few bits and pieces over the years which will fall into place later :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: skip on May 23, 2021, 04:12:31 PM
Nice thread you have here mate, great painting too

Brian
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Little Odo on May 23, 2021, 08:58:17 PM
Your painting is so vibrant. They look amazing.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again!
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 23, 2021, 10:13:03 PM
Yesterdays Speed Painting goings On.....

More pics and the usual waffle on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/stradiots-last-evenings-painterly-doings.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/05/stradiots-last-evenings-painterly-doings.html)


Stadioti
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sy_wDAPqXws/YJnC_d8Nt_I/AAAAAAABGbk/mC3GOXVsBD4QHyNAyF7jqlyGlMntJZ2CQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/STRADIOTS%2B1A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eXnvX3B-wLc/YJnC_n-i3AI/AAAAAAABGbo/fsdc24Mlnk40N6CWIYA_cmzo7vJr8YtEACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/STRADIOTS%2B2A.jpg)

Possibly the best painted Perry stradioti I have seen  :-*
And to put some names to faces.. Here are some words of Thomas of Argos a stradioti commander fighting for Henry VIII in France. They were facing a French force twice their number, including heavy cavalry.
''Comrades, as you see we are in the extreme parts of the world, under the service of a King and a nation in the farthest north. And nothing we brought here from our country other than our courage and bravery. Thus, bravely we stand against our enemies, because their numbers cannot match our virtue. We are children of the Hellenes and we are not afraid of the barbarian horde. …. Therefore, courageous and orderly let us march to the enemy, … and let us prove with our action the famous since olden times virtue of the Hellenes''

They managed to ambush and out maneuver the French causing them to retreat leaving 360 dead on the field. The Stradioti numbered 35 dead and Henry granted Thomas an annual salary as a reward.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 24, 2021, 06:45:55 AM
Your painting is so vibrant. They look amazing.

Thanks Little Odo, colour spheres still echo in my mind post art college. My head still spins at the mere thought of having to absorb all that data!  ;)  o_o

Nice thread you have here mate, great painting too

Brian

Thanks Brian, a lot more to add :)

Possibly the best painted Perry stradioti I have seen  :-*
And to put some names to faces.. Here are some words of Thomas of Argos a stradioti commander fighting for Henry VIII in France. They were facing a French force twice their number, including heavy cavalry.
''Comrades, as you see we are in the extreme parts of the world, under the service of a King and a nation in the farthest north. And nothing we brought here from our country other than our courage and bravery. Thus, bravely we stand against our enemies, because their numbers cannot match our virtue. We are children of the Hellenes and we are not afraid of the barbarian horde. …. Therefore, courageous and orderly let us march to the enemy, … and let us prove with our action the famous since olden times virtue of the Hellenes''

They managed to ambush and out maneuver the French causing them to retreat leaving 360 dead on the field. The Stradioti numbered 35 dead and Henry granted Thomas an annual salary as a reward.

Lead by Pietro Duodo who was given command of the Stradioti and the other Light Cavalry that we now know lead the flank march through the hills and behind the French army and onto Charles VIII's porn stash! Among other valuable items!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 24, 2021, 09:16:39 AM
Absolutely wonderful painting and great basing as well. Stunning.  :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 24, 2021, 11:45:15 AM
Absolutely wonderful painting and great basing as well. Stunning.  :-* :-* :-* :-*

Thanks Hu Rhu  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Stuart H on May 27, 2021, 07:55:12 PM
I played the Arquebus – The Battles for Northern Italy 1495-1544 version of Fornovo at the weekend. A bit disloyal to say on a figure based site but the flanks, river and cavalry make it an interesting and quite pacy battle.

Heres the stock image of the battle from Arquebus  (https://cf.geekdo-images.com/UWy-q7kbyTSJSFQ20ZPtAw__imagepage/img/bZcYS4eNWp6-CGxddD98UXMupvc=/fit-in/900x600/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic3753325.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! First Stradiot/Stradioti Unit. P. 7- 23/05/21
Post by: Atheling on May 28, 2021, 06:50:46 AM
Cheers for that Stuart.  :)

I've never really been one for board games, nothing calculated, it's just the way things turned out.

Does the game have a good "feel" for the battle?


Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish.....P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 03, 2021, 07:31:44 PM
I'm beginning to move away from the idea of doing Fornovo as I am beginning to think a much better game could me made of Cerignola 1503, which is early enough for me to avoid altering the appearance of the miniatures I have painted thus far. (And yes, it did dawn on me after a ten year stink in researching the Fornovo!  lol )

So, something Spanish this way comes.... the opening shots of Gonsalvo de Cordoba's army.....

I will be working on a Spanish in Italy army for a Swordpoint where I plan, to attend a Medieval "tournament" which hopefully will bare more of a resemblance to the old WAB Campaign Weekender as opposed to a raw competition. I'm really not into WAAC tournaments at all so I realise this would potentially be a bit of a disaster, but, it will be my first wargaming event since the Zombie Apocalypse hit us. so positives and possible negatives but heck, I'm just going to go for it.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZAtWrHBeZ0g/YLkqLt1ZCpI/AAAAAAABGqw/z1ziB9inbsQbuEC5axxc1kODgSZd7fZ0ACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B1A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0g5yhbeisdc/YLkqmJOJ3lI/AAAAAAABGrA/VJR1yO3UufoZh0AuvlLSy_273GBjbPhNwCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B1B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-o6Sxm3ilFBk/YLkqmB9DTcI/AAAAAAABGq8/CRzhLlH6nAsJMYrcXoXq07o65a29UvaagCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B1C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GqR1D_wv5mM/YLkqm7OMImI/AAAAAAABGrE/-MZuwCY0w_stn82SKda_lxMi_qG2GslAgCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B1D.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-N_yT6Mlb9Iw/YLkqnOg6okI/AAAAAAABGrI/hAthsb-JXUIa0a2W5SmPemh6qWwvSy0SACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B2A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jm2FRB_J3Io/YLkqnO_dYjI/AAAAAAABGrM/9exfXrL_lZYbKO_NI9paGilVqmSOQQK5ACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B2B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e7itu-NnfPw/YLkqnYirZ_I/AAAAAAABGrQ/tg6HwS0sQUIBJTyY8dWu87sFkYmoZx3hACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B2C.jpg)

There's on pic missing as I had a bit of a PC crash but hopefully you get a picture of the sort of units to come.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Charlie_ on June 03, 2021, 07:42:34 PM
Wow, those look great! Are they from TAG? If so, I'm not usually a fan of their style, but you have made them look very appealing.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Romark on June 03, 2021, 08:34:54 PM
Very nice 👍
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 03, 2021, 08:45:15 PM
They look amazing, great work!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 04, 2021, 07:36:37 AM
Thanks guys. :)

Wow, those look great! Are they from TAG? If so, I'm not usually a fan of their style, but you have made them look very appealing.

Yes, they're from The Assault Group. They're the fist TAG mini's I have painted up and I have to say, I was very pleasantly surprised. The castings are very crisp, barely anything to clean up and  along with the very fine details, they exceptionally well researched. I would give them a 9 out of ten.

I have them a lived in look for a campaign feel but will be adding striped hose and possibly more bold colours to the next batch of six.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Tonhel on June 04, 2021, 10:26:32 AM
Beautiful! :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 04, 2021, 10:44:42 AM
Wonderful painting on those figures  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Paul Richardson on June 04, 2021, 11:25:51 AM
Very well painted. It's not a range I've seen painted up much but I rather like the figures.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 04, 2021, 11:37:15 AM
I'm beginning to move away from the idea of doing Fornovo as I am beginning to think a much better game could me made of Cerignola 1503, which is early enough for me to avoid altering the appearance of the miniatures I have painted thus far. (And yes, it did dawn on me after a ten year stink in researching the Fornovo!  lol )

But Darrell you will miss out on the spectacle of the massed cavalry and a vignette of the stradiotti looting the Fench baggage camp
 alessandro de Benedtti describes

how the Stratiotti " ...affixed the heads of the enemy to their light lances , entered camp. and were welcomed with great enthusiasm. One  of them, so that he might not be seen returning from battle empty handed, crually cut off the head of a priest"

What a splendid vignette this presents
And of course , this account  requires little embellishment

" In that plunder I saw a book in which were painted various nude images of his mistresses , differing in appearance and age as his lust and insane love had impelled him in each city; these pictures he carried around as souvenirs"

I recall this being the inspiration for a well received scenario which was used at 2 Italian Wars themed events.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 04, 2021, 12:29:21 PM
Thank you guys :)

Very well painted. It's not a range I've seen painted up much but I rather like the figures.

Yeah, I did a google search to see how others have interpreted them colour scheme Paul and could only find a couple of others who had given it a go! Very sad really as the range is spot on for the early Italian Wars.

I'm beginning to move away from the idea of doing Fornovo as I am beginning to think a much better game could me made of Cerignola 1503, which is early enough for me to avoid altering the appearance of the miniatures I have painted thus far. (And yes, it did dawn on me after a ten year stint in researching the Fornovo!  lol )

But Darrell you will miss out on the spectacle of the massed cavalry and a vignette of the stradiotti looting the Fench baggage camp
 alessandro de Benedtti describes

how the Stratiotti " ...affixed the heads of the enemy to their light lances , entered camp. and were welcomed with great enthusiasm. One  of them, so that he might not be seen returning from battle empty handed, crually cut off the head of a priest"

What a splendid vignette this presents
And of course , this account  requires little embellishment

" In that plunder I saw a book in which were painted various nude images of his mistresses , differing in appearance and age as his lust and insane love had impelled him in each city; these pictures he carried around as souvenirs"

That's true. Who could not resist making a large vignette of a bunch of Stradiots making off with Charles VIII's porn stash?  lol It would require some serious effort and a heck of a lot of conversion work. Everything in fact except the French guards and the wagons, unless someone has started making some dismounted looting Stradioti?   :o

Coming to think of it, it was you put that idea into my head a decade ago!  lol lol

I recall this being the inspiration for a well received scenario which was used at 2 Italian Wars themed events.

If it's the WHW Campaign I missed out on that one as I had already committed to Alex's HYW campaign. :(
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 04, 2021, 01:00:06 PM
its the one day wab events I used to run back in the day.

Oddly, there is enough literature on the kings porn stash, pen something for Hobilar on it.  ( on my to do list for the last decade)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 04, 2021, 01:52:50 PM
its the one day wab events I used to run back in the day.

Oddly, there is enough literature on the kings porn stash, pen something for Hobilar on it.  ( on my to do list for the last decade)

Great idea. Certainly different  :)

Oh, given the history of who those women were, Charles VIII probably wanted to keep that one under his hat  lol
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 04, 2021, 03:00:26 PM
The whole reason for conquering Naples was to use as a staging ground for new crusade. However, the French soon forgot any such ideas.  They were so renowned for their activities that the Italians named Syphilis il mal Gallico, the French disease
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 04, 2021, 03:08:07 PM
The whole reason for conquering Naples was to use as a staging ground for new crusade. However, the French soon forgot any such ideas.  They were so renowned for their activities that the Italians named Syphilis il mal Gallico, the French disease

Indeed. Though I expect that the literature of the time proportioned blame for the spread of Syphilis to each for their specific enemy at the time. It's likely a case that a lot of the literature was destroyed over time, thus we are left with what we have.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 04, 2021, 03:42:54 PM
Absolulty- French sources blamed the illness on the Italians.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 04, 2021, 04:26:16 PM
Absolulty- French sources blamed the illness on the Italians.

About ten/twenty years ago, I forget how long, watching a documentary mouth agape documentary in which they blamed the Native Americans for Syphilis!
 
I'm quite sure that this "theory", if you can call it that, has been largely dismissed.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Paul Richardson on June 04, 2021, 05:08:59 PM
I thought the view was that a more virulent form of syphilis was endemic in the New World, that it was brought back to south west Europe by the crews of European ships and then spread further north by Charles VIII's army when it retreated north.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 04, 2021, 05:25:38 PM
I thought the view was that a more virulent form of syphilis was endemic in the New World, that it was brought back to south west Europe by the crews of European ships and then spread further north by Charles VIII's army when it retreated north.

As far I understand it, the very basics, there are two theories. The Pre Columbian and the Post Columbian. I had thought that the former had been largely dismissed but one quick glance at Google and it appears not to be so.

As I say, I cannot really give an informed opinion one way or the other. It's much more fun researching toy soldiers etc  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 05, 2021, 08:13:58 AM
Agree Darrol.

 There is a Spanish series of books produced in what may be termed the "osprey Style"   called Guerreros y Batallas, they have a book  on " Cerinola 1503" in Spanish and lavishly illustrated , some great colour plates in there.  I think clavier Books had it . 

I have a few in the series but as I don't read Spanish I can't comment on the text.  I guess like Wargames Illustated you just buy it for the pictures
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 05, 2021, 08:30:52 AM
Agree Darrol.

 There is a Spanish series of books produced in what may be termed the "osprey Style"   called Guerreros y Batallas, they have a book  on " Cerinola 1503" in Spanish and lavishly illustrated , some great colour plates in there.  I think clavier Books had it . 

I have a few in the series but as I don't read Spanish I can't comment on the text.  I guess like Wargames Illustated you just buy it for the pictures

I've looked everywhere for that particular book but no one has it in stock George. I'm marked down for when the publisher gets a restock bit that's about it unfortunately.

If it had decent maps and illustrations then Google Translate could be my friend. I'm not so sure about trying to translate a whole text via Google Translate as when I've tried it before I've ended up with half good and half gobbledygook!

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Condottiere on June 07, 2021, 01:47:55 AM

I've looked everywhere for that particular book but no one has it in stock George. I'm marked down for when the publisher gets a restock bit that's about it unfortunately.

If it had decent maps and illustrations then Google Translate could be my friend. I'm not so sure about trying to translate a whole text via Google Translate as when I've tried it before I've ended up with half good and half gobbledygook!
Unless you're fluent in Spanish, it's useless:

1) One map of Fornovo.

2) Most of the illustrations and photos have been seen elsewhere and a few don't look period appropriate.

3) The plates look computer created and not that high quality. Plates 4 and 5 are phase I and II respectively of Cerinola, but it's not worth the price of a copy.

Volume 2, Garellano 1503, has better quality plates, probably computer drawn again, and appropriate pics and drawings, though some are clearly Victorian. My favorite is plate 5 with the guy with a freshly severed arm leading troops and clutching a standard with his left hand!

You'd be better off tracking down the titles on Bicoca 1522 and Pavia 1525 for the plates.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 07, 2021, 04:03:51 AM
Unless you're fluent in Spanish, it's useless:

1) One map of Fornovo.

2) Most of the illustrations and photos have been seen elsewhere and a few don't look period appropriate.

3) The plates look computer created and not that high quality. Plates 4 and 5 are phase I and II respectively of Cerinola, but it's not worth the price of a copy.

Volume 2, Garellano 1503, has better quality plates, probably computer drawn again, and appropriate pics and drawings, though some are clearly Victorian. My favorite is plate 5 with the guy with a freshly severed arm leading troops and clutching a standard with his left hand!

You'd be better off tracking down the titles on Bicoca 1522 and Pavia 1525 for the plates.

That's a real bummer as fashions certainly changed in Italy in the 19 year between Bicocca and Cerignola and 22 years between Pavia and Cerignola.

Does the Garellano 1503 have many colour plated of the Spanish troops?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Condottiere on June 07, 2021, 04:40:28 AM
That's a real bummer as fashions certainly changed in Italy in the 19 year between Bicocca and Cerignola and 22 years between Pavia and Cerignola.

I meant in terms of quality. Both are illustrated by Angel Garcia Pinto and if you could get past his Attack of the Clones  or Rimmerworld style, you're in for a treat.

From Bicoca 1522:

(https://imagenes.arrecaballo.es/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/batalla-de-bicoca-1522--lanquenetes-alemanes-y-piqueros.png)

Does the Garellano 1503 have many colour plated of the Spanish troops?
Plates 1, 5 and 7 shows Spanish troops in action, but it's not at the level of detail as the Helion books I, II and possibly the forthcoming III on Pavia. Plates 2, 3 and 4 tracks the movement of the armies on a 3D map and plate 6 is an overhead view of troops crossing a pontoon bridge. There are no illustrations of the French, expect for fleeing men-at-arms on a bridge, but they're in plain white harness, compared to the fancy ones in Pinto's plates.

This is plate 7 and the cover of the book:

(https://imagenes.arrecaballo.es/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/batalla-de-garellano-1503--el-caballero-bayardo-defendiendo-el-puente-en-mola-768x777.png) 
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Something Spanish this way Comes P. 8- 03/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 07, 2021, 05:03:15 AM
I meant in terms of quality. Both are illustrated by Angel Garcia Pinto and if you could get past his Attack of the Clones  or Rimmerworld style, you're in for a treat.

From Bicoca 1522:

(https://imagenes.arrecaballo.es/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/batalla-de-bicoca-1522--lanquenetes-alemanes-y-piqueros.png)
Plates 1, 5 and 7 shows Spanish troops in action, but it's not at the level of detail as the Helion books I, II and possibly the forthcoming III on Pavia. Plates 2, 3 and 4 tracks the movement of the armies on a 3D map and plate 6 is an overhead view of troops crossing a pontoon bridge. There are no illustrations of the French, expect for fleeing men-at-arms on a bridge, but they're in plain white harness, compared to the fancy ones in Pinto's plates.

This is plate 7 and the cover of the book:

(https://imagenes.arrecaballo.es/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/batalla-de-garellano-1503--el-caballero-bayardo-defendiendo-el-puente-en-mola-768x777.png)

Thanks. I've seen all these images on the internet possibly 50 times so there's really no point in me buying any of the books.

Thanks for the heads up Condottiere  8)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! French Mounted Crossbowmen P. 9- 09/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 09, 2021, 03:04:40 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nYi_OYaAAQs/YMDTiVs3j8I/AAAAAAABG7E/oOmVFGWUUgwG_UKIrVGt99v-jYJ-DcOygCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1A.JPG)

I think I overdid the speed painting malarkey this time and I am not really very satisfied with the end results. I was trying to see just how fast I could get these mini's painted up; the layered paint being applied after a very rough wash with very rough highlights to follow. All of which I ended up having mix up a medium hue to blend in the awful contrast that resulted.

I also made the school boy error of hurrying the matt varnish after the gloss which has resulted in some spectacular "speckling" on the miniatures, all of which which just rubbed salt into the self inflicted wound! I will not be repeating the superfast speed paint job again! Medium pace it is from now on unless I'm working on something I intend to take my time with. Added to all of that when I took the photographs I was even more horrified to see that i had neglected to cut the flash off some of the plastics!  o_o >:(

Still, they are fine for the table top so will remain in my collection rather then being cast into eBay oblivion.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qlhbvObrhDY/YMDUL9bQ-iI/AAAAAAABG7U/Hpdfu2hRFeoPGU_OgGvIbJu0bRDLowqcgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1B.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3m1tgoKhin4/YMDULzcplMI/AAAAAAABG7Q/5JTKS_6XQAcs9zAZbpHSGKcvkAMNMQRUgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1C.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mu4b1S7FDlI/YMDUMGnMGoI/AAAAAAABG7Y/K9OmcTGnmy0PjJXMmPg_6FUzpSLOcZx8QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1D.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F2bY5mzagMA/YMDUM3ItwPI/AAAAAAABG7c/Or0g7L2vRoQDWfbsSZmJX5MH3IU1tdmBgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1E.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FkRimdUSMPo/YMDUM7syknI/AAAAAAABG7g/C9jvyhywDbAn6vKMM7CKaJr_away_yWFgCLcBGAsYHQ/s756/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1F.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zc83N_s6xcQ/YMDUNJxjCAI/AAAAAAABG7k/PeBV0CTxqDUo4rE_aADWTlb9Rg_5nQlLwCLcBGAsYHQ/s855/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1G.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZNzn69i0Bw0/YMDUNS3JZdI/AAAAAAABG7o/OfS3vuROGnUk7XnsY9Nmrt7ZhyBM6-lkQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/FREENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOWS%2B1H.JPG)

If you take a look at the pics of the single bases you will see the "speckling" in all of it's ghastliness. So, I repeat my varnishing mantra again, "wait a week between the gloss and the matt coats you silly sod!" All a bit of a terrible shame really as there were some nice conversions and kit bashed models in the unit. I came very close to not bother including the pictures of the single bases, but, in the interests of being transparent (bad pun).........

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SuTXqDh_yyo/YMDUxi5il2I/AAAAAAABG8E/agaxotJjEVYATei1KYxg8u3E2OLXLJTDwCLcBGAsYHQ/s624/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B1A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mwPHWpsGA-M/YMDUx3-w1vI/AAAAAAABG8I/xMcT5Q8WEiYGY5sOZK5eDOR9cpaiIcFtQCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B1B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KL7039dUyPM/YMDUxl0cXtI/AAAAAAABG8A/fnDbcBzS6KQy6dHn1F5RhTX7dEB8_NwVQCLcBGAsYHQ/s619/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B1C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oW6kC_6x1vo/YMDUydf-iGI/AAAAAAABG8M/bYakqJr8F4MI1U6lHaolAAb4a0cozZ7qgCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B1D.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VhxzXvdHQSw/YMDUyY7BuMI/AAAAAAABG8Q/78u9NlJIc-cHKxQ3CGNFWZIw7qUyfPQOQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B1E.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OvTUgUU6PQo/YMDUyk3naiI/AAAAAAABG8U/d5TGK9NSLgQZshT6nDFSWKc2J8Ap4tQYQCLcBGAsYHQ/s626/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B1F.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FSxhE3bD42w/YMDUy5Bx9eI/AAAAAAABG8Y/2rx0DIVHnwo2m-R5JEp6g4UGExBEdN6igCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B2A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZnhARb4EVv8/YMDUzPewEtI/AAAAAAABG8c/9L0UWTExHfE1_HR02XeFyBmT2riMAj8fQCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B2B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IJEreWR89M0/YMDUzLiZvrI/AAAAAAABG8g/jJWIEAqELMII9K1WdbgnShQz0CYJ-8AfgCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B2C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g9AcXrWQTC4/YMDUzTcTvYI/AAAAAAABG8k/uhIrjpaBdP4fdXIaz42F3S-rrfI-mJGZACLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B2D.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JOv4zPNhO30/YMDUzqKDgQI/AAAAAAABG8o/kqe5_EIlKDQigugzoeyF1pCj0_30YnWPQCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B2E.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-__a3oIMajhk/YMDUz9E-PII/AAAAAAABG8s/7nutGiK2jUY7rKUOfNt_inFRCKnTjHjYQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B2F.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IWtt0tyGWVE/YMDU0FkSwuI/AAAAAAABG8w/Ry4ESIdgArw9bzxBXVjOIaYIPBAilkSzgCLcBGAsYHQ/s631/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B3A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VU6gaCy_k6w/YMDU0S7tHGI/AAAAAAABG80/gp64UdobvgQkUi_oBCKqMbXGHZSpJweUgCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B3B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D4f1LA0cBBo/YMDU0WP4TXI/AAAAAAABG84/ucF17ye5m-EcKTIPfE4MBv1YnSeO-8FUwCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B3C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R0ok3firRMg/YMDU0oN5AuI/AAAAAAABG88/Om8NAqu5oUAPAjugATXALjGwbLzzWZcRgCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B3D.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Vm9t5TIBv0M/YMDU1FLq9mI/AAAAAAABG9A/t2FBR2g_4VY_S_WXC3OmsuDxcdpNg7bigCLcBGAsYHQ/s650/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B3E.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nZvtMMW9EVI/YMDU1dHbdSI/AAAAAAABG9E/uADpQqhgQwgvXFtb7RNAKtIe_4syTy6QQCLcBGAsYHQ/s659/FRENCH%2BMOUNTED%2BCROSSBOW%2BBASE%2B3F.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! French Mounted Crossbowmen - Page 9- UPDATE 09/06/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 09, 2021, 04:01:02 PM
Darren I think you are being ultra critical.  I can't even see the speckling and the painting standard is well above average if not edging on superb.  :-* :-*

However if you are really unhappy with the miniatures, I would be very happy to take them off your hands lol lol lol (for a suitable price of course).  ;)

By the way are these converted from the Perry plastic light cavalry?  Great conversions if they are.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! French Mounted Crossbowmen - Page 9- UPDATE 09/06/21
Post by: bigredbat on June 09, 2021, 04:21:25 PM
I think they are lovely; well above average! Super animation on the minis.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! French Mounted Crossbowmen - Page 9- UPDATE 09/06/21
Post by: Roo on June 09, 2021, 05:00:53 PM
Too harsh matey these are lovely despite all the ‘flaws’…wish I could paint that well that quickly
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! French Mounted Crossbowmen - Page 9- UPDATE 09/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 09, 2021, 05:48:13 PM
Thanks guys.

Darren I think you are being ultra critical.  I can't even see the speckling and the painting standard is well above average if not edging on superb.  :-* :-*

However if you are really unhappy with the miniatures, I would be very happy to take them off your hands lol lol lol (for a suitable price of course).  ;)

Sorry man, they are sitting in a Very Useful Box until they are required to see the light of day  lol

By the way are these converted from the Perry plastic light cavalry?  Great conversions if they are.

From the Perry Mounted Standard Bearers/Men at Arms with Lances and the Scurrers Command and Scurrers Scouting packs- at least the three metal mini's. There's very little actually done to them, just a crossbow instead of a lance with the Men at Arms with Lances, nothing to the command model and a hand swap for the metal Scurrer holding the crossbow outward. The plastics have had more done to them. I did have some pics but they went the way of the Crow Road when I amalgamated by blogs  :'(
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 10, 2021, 08:09:46 PM
After the disappointment of the last batch of painting, the French Mounted Crossbows, I'm very happy to say that the next batch of Spanish Arquebusiers have come out rather nicely. I took my time with these, which after all can make all the difference; though they still have to face the slings and arrows of the varnishing process. Picking the right time of the day to spray varnish, it being not too cold and not too humid being the key. If the weather is not suitable, I'm going to wait.

This is the second lot of Spanish Arquebusiers, the command to follow.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1r7ij2gNsIs/YMIxlEXk9HI/AAAAAAABG90/1Z-0xuLyHDgKcZwURlJ2gY2teN-YhlWaACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B3a.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R0RkjDmceG4/YMIxki2L4KI/AAAAAAABG9s/TrqHDJ1erNgiCBBkPGjVH69K8jj6i4wzgCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B3B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Gdwz8A6JLXI/YMIxkqoUG5I/AAAAAAABG9w/fYBny18WPk0PRnbgYs7uyjESWoK5XTxnQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B3C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ucH2kmrgOHI/YMIxksw8gVI/AAAAAAABG9o/EFMqNp1ejG0Yuaf38XiYdCVAjd98N_0YQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B3D.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4ykN6fZVzTY/YMIxlYZ8WOI/AAAAAAABG98/EB6IPNPhtgcFlVde5crtBiVEHw4yeHlzgCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B4A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-B-nMFQrQ8ds/YMIxlb-AIhI/AAAAAAABG94/n9qPrRuonh8d8OmSz8_EphepEnmJg4DfwCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B4B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BLT_7nX4gfI/YMIxlfru4II/AAAAAAABG-A/nhv7T6mpC6IHHOQG0MGtUBzeesSgGmE8ACLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B4C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1Toti8M24YA/YMIxlkUtDEI/AAAAAAABG-E/MOur3Ahn1T48u2rxDF5BtfrAkQ8rLhzdQCLcBGAsYHQ/s800/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2B4D.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 10, 2021, 08:22:47 PM
Wonderful as always.   :-* :-* :-* 

I have just had a few of those TAG sculpts delivered and I hope I can paint them half as well as you have.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 11, 2021, 09:49:51 AM
Wonderful as always.   :-* :-* :-* 

I have just had a few of those TAG sculpts delivered and I hope I can paint them half as well as you have.

Thanks Hu Rhu. I've had these for a few years. They are very well cast and the historical research and attention to detail is outstanding. 
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Bloggard on June 11, 2021, 11:30:41 AM
superb.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: caveadsum1471 on June 11, 2021, 05:10:21 PM
Splendid looking Spanish shot!
Best Iain
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 12, 2021, 06:26:46 AM
Thank you again Iain and Bloggard  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Tonhel on June 12, 2021, 07:40:46 AM
It looks super!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Gibby on June 12, 2021, 08:06:16 AM
Amazing painting. Having painted these same figures (my quick tabletop standard, actually for a Warhammer Estalian army) I have a great appreciation for how skillfully you've done these, including turning them into flawless casting. At least, the ones I got took a bit of cleaning in awkward places.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 12, 2021, 11:39:29 AM
It looks super!

Thanks matey :)

Amazing painting. Having painted these same figures (my quick tabletop standard, actually for a Warhammer Estalian army) I have a great appreciation for how skillfully you've done these, including turning them into flawless casting. At least, the ones I got took a bit of cleaning in awkward places.

I bought mine probably about seven years ago ( ???) and the castings were pretty crisp. It's almost certainly down to how worn the moulds are and when they are remoulded. Pete seems quite conscientious about these things and has nearly four decades experience so it might have just been bad timing?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 12, 2021, 02:59:32 PM
I bought a handful only this week and the castings were fine, with just a few seconds required per figure to remove some very minor flash. No mould lines at all.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 12, 2021, 04:45:54 PM
I bought a handful only this week and the castings were fine, with just a few seconds required per figure to remove some very minor flash. No mould lines at all.

That is my experience too. I have three boxes sitting waiting to be opened at the moment; I refuse allow myself to open them yet so as to give impetus to the units I'm currently working on  lol
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Tonhel on June 12, 2021, 05:01:07 PM
Which ruleset are you using?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 12, 2021, 05:17:52 PM
Which ruleset are you using?

I'm going to base the miniatures up so they can be used, with a little fudging, mainly for Furioso, Impetus and Swordpoint (a Swordpoint event was what instigated the army, though it's impossible to get a Spanish Italian Wars army to look right with those rules!)

Not much help but I try to base my armies up for as many different systems as possible nowadays. Re-basing is the devil.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Tonhel on June 12, 2021, 06:38:56 PM
I'm going to base the miniatures up so they can be used, with a little fudging, mainly for Furioso, Impetus and Swordpoint (a Swordpoint event was what instigated the army, though it's impossible to get a Spanish Italian Wars army to look right with those rules!)

Not much help but I try to base my armies up for as many different systems as possible nowadays. Re-basing is the devil.

I agree, that rebasing is the devil  :D, I am also working on a swordpoint army. But now I am thinking about using 60x50 for infantry and 60*80 for cavarly in the same way David Imrie is doing his Early HYW. Which looks very cool.
Anyway I find it very hard to find the right base size. The bigger, the more dynamic the group looks, but than it isn't as useable for different rulesets.

About armylists, for my Spanish army, I currently like the WAB: El Cid armylist as that one gives more options than the the Swordpoints armylist..
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 12, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
I agree, that rebasing is the devil  :D, I am also working on a swordpoint army. But now I am thinking about using 60x50 for infantry and 60*80 for cavarly in the same way David Imrie is doing his Early HYW. Which looks very cool.
Anyway I find it very hard to find the right base size. The bigger, the more dynamic the group looks, but than it isn't as useable for different rulesets.

I usually give up a little on the depth of my unit bases to give me more leeway ion the composition of the miniatures. Actually a trick I learned from David when I was a member of South East Scotland Wargames Club. If it means i het outflanked more often then not so be it  :D
See the bases below - I like the miniature to tell a story:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qWZzO4xDl3E/X4rIpgC03hI/AAAAAAABEzg/-mi3rovmuR08_LU8VR_gnNd_c0DTtl5bwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/BY%2BSCUT%2B%2526%2BCOMM%2B1D.jpg)

About armylists, for my Spanish army, I currently like the WAB: El Cid armylist as that one gives more options than the the Swordpoints armylist..

I agree re: the Swordpoint lists compared to James Morris' El Cid WAB supplement. The Swordpoint lists seem very vanilla by comparison. I think his Age of Arthur and El Cid WAB supplements can be played, and have been played, without a lot of the "gamey-ness" that some WAB supplements are guilty of as the lists are just so well balanced. If you used markers for casualties (in WAB) I don't think you would have any problems cross pollinating with Swordpoint and basing.

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 12, 2021, 07:30:50 PM
I'm a little confused.   o_o o_o o_o o_o

Isn't this army set in the very early 1500s for the Italian Wars not the 1100's for the Reconquista.  Do you have your threads mixed up ??? ???
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 12, 2021, 08:39:00 PM
I'm a little confused.   o_o o_o o_o o_o

Isn't this army set in the very early 1500s for the Italian Wars not the 1100's for the Reconquista.  Do you have your threads mixed up ??? ???

I don't think so.

Tonhel was just saying that he was basing up an army for either Swordpoint or WAB. I'm facing a similar problem, which I think I have gone some way to finding a resolution in that I'm basing for Swordpoint and Furioso which both have quote different base sizes.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Tonhel on June 12, 2021, 09:26:35 PM
That picture is exactly what I want to achieve. I completely agree with telling a story. Imo, the bases / unit has to be as immersive and dynamic as possible. Not just a bunch of ranked robots.  :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Gibby on June 12, 2021, 09:39:18 PM
That is my experience too. I have three boxes sitting waiting to be opened at the moment; I refuse allow myself to open them yet so as to give impetus to the units I'm currently working on  lol

To be fair mine were from a few years ago, perhaps the moulds were renewed since then. I just remember having quite a lot of cleanup to do with mine. Certainly not casting shade on TAG or the figures; both are great. I simply added that aspect as a testament to your skills at getting the best from the models.  :D
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Yet More Spanish This Way Come! - UPDATE 10/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 13, 2021, 11:17:53 AM
To be fair mine were from a few years ago, perhaps the moulds were renewed since then. I just remember having quite a lot of cleanup to do with mine. Certainly not casting shade on TAG or the figures; both are great. I simply added that aspect as a testament to your skills at getting the best from the models.  :D

Probably so, the life of a mould has a kind of rhythm. The older it gets the more wear and tear. In general the nearer you get to buying models that have popped out of a fairly fresh mould the better. Well, that's my experience anyway :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! - UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 13, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zn3EJaCEcng/YMZI4SW6QwI/AAAAAAABG-4/UYoUbMq-UasyeOz6oIqjpXZrzF46G0sxgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1200/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND.jpg)

I finished these little fellows off this morning who will be acting as my command in the first unit of Arquebusiers. As I explained in a previous post the reason for building up this Spanish force is twofold, i/ to take part in the Swordpoint Medieval event in September and ii/ to build up units for Cerignola 1503  or perhaps even Bicocca 1522 using Furioso wargames rules as a display game. I am finding myself having to make some serious compromises with the army, as I understand the army of say Gonzalo de Cordoba's forces and how they would have operated. Swordpoint, which after reading through several times are well suited to Ancient, Early Medieval (so called Dark Ages and Feudal) but seem to fall flat when entering the era of gunpowder and the Italian Wars. Maybe it is just down to the general nature of the Medieval army lists? The lists do not at all reflect how the Spanish Colunela's fought during the wars. Maybe this will change with a supplement in the future(?) but for now I'm left with a hodgepodge of a list with large units of Arquebusiers; six bases compared to eight to twelve of pike! Including two twelve base pike units, which would feel about right, would eat up much of the points for the army! According to the lists you cannot combine the Roderleros or Arquebusiers with the pike blocks, which for me takes away the whole ethos of just how the Spanish fought in Italy after having learned much after the hastily fought the Battle of Seminara 1503. Still, I'm not really one for overly competitive games so even if I leave holding the wooden spoon I will be happy having at long last actually rolled some dice in anger.

I have designed the basing so that the units can be used with a variety of rules as my days of rebasing armies are absolutely over with.

That is the first unit finished but it will be a while before the miniatures are based as they have all been varnished at different times which leaves me with another varnishing queue.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1bpaK7H7e3A/YMZKl7YcBWI/AAAAAAABG_A/3IMbqXpeAd4szPvUSNw57QLOVz8p2yeeACLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B1A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d1rm0ErYerI/YMZKmKk58NI/AAAAAAABG_I/ZLbqv74NX3wVf4H-atAm-r5hi8hQe6A4ACLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B1B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mr8eoFrsa0s/YMZKl7ujsoI/AAAAAAABG_E/rcAWsnRJXLkV571UXE-Zimj74rbZ54TRQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B1C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6bIpuB0XqNc/YMZKmbXLo-I/AAAAAAABG_M/-U6npNLbsLEfapvRfmtxsim423HIlmUUwCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B1D.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UNM5LLxUP50/YMZKmQEyiDI/AAAAAAABG_Q/EVfpzAeA3eces47mty1of7gnoKskkTyDwCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B2A.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AOaU7888RwQ/YMZKmY4ryXI/AAAAAAABG_U/IsOyKAl76Kgwu_vOpZSMynPIfwnkAvLZgCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B2B.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JsYgblYTuGE/YMZKm2FUOJI/AAAAAAABG_Y/qdNwgd2ud2Ami-_YigL1uDgUH3VlwYIbACLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B2C.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3h0MVTLobzo/YMZKnXKcPrI/AAAAAAABG_c/rIcTW7bzw1Qg3If_sN-UvOsPWiC6FIZAACLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BCOMMAND%2B2D.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Tonhel on June 13, 2021, 06:54:53 PM
Amazing! :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: bigredbat on June 13, 2021, 07:07:27 PM
I really like those, the muted colours are great. And that white shirt, looks like it's just back from the dry cleaners!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on June 13, 2021, 08:53:54 PM
Very nice indeed.  I reconise a couple as TAG figures but not all. Have you done some head swaps or used different manufacturors?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 13, 2021, 09:21:30 PM
Oops..... I'd blame the gremlins but alas, it was me double posting  :-[
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 13, 2021, 09:26:22 PM
Amazing! :-*

Cheers Tonhel :)

I really like those, the muted colours are great. And that white shirt, looks like it's just back from the dry cleaners!

 lol lol I know right?! Methinks I got a little carried away with the highlights  lol

Very nice indeed.  I reconise a couple as TAG figures but not all. Have you done some head swaps or used different manufacturors?

Yeah, they're all TAG and I haven't altered any as of yet Hu Rhu. I keep wanting to do the odd head swap but keep chickening out- I have a finite time to get the bones of the army completed as it's for a Swordpoint weekend in September. I don't know if I'm going to finish it as things stand now but certainly afterwards, there will be more conversion/headswaps. I've got a great idea for a vignette but I'm desperately trying not to get distracted  o_o
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 15, 2021, 07:31:03 PM
excellent work, rich colours but you have managed to convey a sense of grim determination and stoic resolve in the forces of el gran capitan.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 15, 2021, 08:45:39 PM
excellent work, rich colours but you have managed to convey a sense of grim determination and stoic resolve in the forces of el gran capitan.

Thanks mate- appreciated- I've got a load of Spanish pike cleaned primed and undercoated to join the unpainted Swiss now!  lol The Spanish will be first - they are just such lovely characterful miniatures :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 15, 2021, 09:18:27 PM
This is a bit after your period but inspiring nonetheless

http://tapestries.flandesenhispania.org/index.php/The_Conquest_of_Tunis_series

The original illustrations are displayed in Vienna at the Kunsthisrisches Muzeum- I spent a long time studying them both times I saw them.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 16, 2021, 04:55:47 AM
This is a bit after your period but inspiring nonetheless

http://tapestries.flandesenhispania.org/index.php/The_Conquest_of_Tunis_series

The original illustrations are displayed in Vienna at the Kunsthisrisches Muzeum- I spent a long time studying them both times I saw them.

Thanks George- appreciated old bean.

It looks very much like the Kunsthisrisches Muzeum needs to be added to my post Covid to do list! I'm going to have to have a chat with you about the museums  you visited when writing the Marignano book for the Lance and Longbow Society too!

BTW, if anyone is interested in George's excellent book it is available here (Pub-04 - Marignano 1515):
https://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php (https://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 19, 2021, 08:00:10 PM
Also worth a visit is the Imperial Armoury in Vienna.

That book was the result of me having a reader's pass to the British Library    I was able to charm the young Frenchmen working at the photocopy counter into printing off the account by Guicciardini from the 1745 Goddard translation ( the Clough translation is abridged and omits the battle accounts) for free.   If you want I can scan and send it to you by email.

Darrel I have visited a lot of places- I enjoyed Chateaux Grandson and Chillion which house part of the Burgundbeute
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 20, 2021, 08:32:33 AM
Also worth a visit is the Imperial Armoury in Vienna.

That book was the result of me having a reader's pass to the British Library    I was able to charm the young Frenchmen working at the photocopy counter into printing off the account by Guicciardini from the 1745 Goddard translation ( the Clough translation is abridged and omits the battle accounts) for free.   If you want I can scan and send it to you by email.

Thanks again George, that's very good of you as always mon mai :)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 20, 2021, 05:12:51 PM
I've emailed you an image of a cavalry standard being borne aloft by the Jinetes . I am looking foreword to you adding some Jimetes with teh standard.

Have you seen the Condoittieri de ventura website, an incredible resource for the Italian Wars. Filled with descriptions of the various skirmishes and  named commanders
https://condottieridiventura.it/1500/
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 21, 2021, 07:34:24 AM
I've emailed you an image of a cavalry standard being borne aloft by the Jinetes . I am looking foreword to you adding some Jimetes with teh standard.

Received and many thanks again George.

Have you seen the Condoittieri de ventura website, an incredible resource for the Italian Wars. Filled with descriptions of the various skirmishes and  named commanders
https://condottieridiventura.it/1500/

I've now got the site saved in my bookmarks. I haven't had a chance to read it yet so can I ask, how far into the 16th CE does the site go?

Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Condottiere on June 22, 2021, 03:29:42 AM

It looks very much like the Kunsthisrisches Muzeum needs to be added to my post Covid to do list!
Before you go, you might want to get a copy of the book containing the "cartoons", Der Kriegszug Kaiser Karls V. gegen Tunis: Kartons und Tapisserien (https://www.amazon.com/Kriegszug-Kaiser-Karls-gegen-Tunis/dp/3854970137). According to Daniel S., some of the "cartoons" are so high up on the walls, that you can't see it properly, so this book is of help, unfortunately, it's only in German. The depictions of North Africans and scenery is better than the ones in the Pastrana Tapestries, though I don't see any body armor among the Tunisians. Eduardo de Mesa's Los tercios de las campañas del Mediterráneo s. XVI (Norte de África) references the tapestries and Ángel García Pinto's plates are based off of them.

(https://www.marcialpons.es/media/img/portadas/2017/3/6/9788496170575.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on June 22, 2021, 09:01:03 AM
I bought the Kriegszug book when I was last in Vienna .  I managed to scan and crop an image of a unit. likely to be Jinetes carrying aloft a standard. 

The Tunisian cavalry are depicted with zero body armour and wielding spears that look to be about 10-12" long wielded one handed. Other cavalry are shown firing arquebus from horseback.

I wonder how much of this is artistic licence.  There is one image of the Tunisian cavalry who look like they came off the set of a Hollywood Arabian Nights movie
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Italian Wars Command! Page 11-UPDATE 13/06/21
Post by: Atheling on June 22, 2021, 11:33:35 AM
Thanks George and Condottiere.

At present I'm trying to limit the time period to that of Fornovo to Bicocca (perhaps a little beyond at a later date) and geography to that of Italy and my projects within ;) :)

That is not to say that I don't appreciate your contributions.
Title: Re: Italian Renaissance- Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Atheling on July 29, 2021, 11:39:23 AM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qOOhrCp9Ldc/YPa6qhG8j5I/AAAAAAABHXU/OBr3Zmu-zKwIVbHOAtSjDvXwVHlnwsEEwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1A.jpg)

The first unit of what will be the army of Gonzalo de Cordoba for my Italian Wars project. I aim to do both sides for the Battle of Cerignola 1503, in my opinion one of the most pivotal battles during the series of conflicts we call The Italian Wars. After his defeat at the hands of the French and Swiss at the Battle of Seminara 1503 Gonzalo put into place plans to employ his smaller force more efficiently in a defensive manner. He significantly lengthened the pike, equipped his men with more arquebus' and enlarged his artillery train and set his army firmly on the defensive. The addition of mercenary Landsknechts to further bolster his forces. It was in this way that Gonzalo was to send the forces of Louis de Armagnac, Duc de Nemour's overwhelming numbers of a mix of French and Swiss reeling and into eventual retreat. If not annihilation in the case of the Swiss.

More pictures from a lower angle on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/07/spanish-arquebusiers.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/07/spanish-arquebusiers.html)


The miniatures are being based up for as many rules systems as I can possibly fit in as I am done with rebasing. I'm in my early 50's now and the days spent plying miniatures off one base then going through the process again are over!

As an aside, I have been watching on Twitter excitement tantalising glimpses of an Italian Wars playtest set of rules but the Too Fat Lardies. A medium sized game, along the lines of Infamy, Infamy! and Sharpe Practice. This will be a great set of rules to slowly bring together both sides for Cerignola without painting up thousands of miniatures and will allow me to actually get some games in!

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KqVTJSn23Qg/YPQnmUeGj2I/AAAAAAABHWg/ZLUbiCjsRoQCsXjQ5ADu3zdGEfzQoJ1oACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XNeRnA2gMM8/YPQRrlFzoWI/AAAAAAABHVI/u1kwbpmbRzEspgSUL429FZYGkXYWB617QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1E.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--GB1SS1VL-A/YPQRq0Wr9CI/AAAAAAABHVE/iX6Ltem5EtcsrgAIys_vD27uVhcCsdbnQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1D.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OENaN6nvpns/YPQRqd_7fkI/AAAAAAABHVA/kZOuixAZ4ao9m9JaabkkKIh5HjhWYBEngCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1C.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aKA3iaQC5z4/YPQRqVgpBLI/AAAAAAABHU8/QDDi7MG0JYcBaGLo99qSdIiKoUe3dA8zQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1B.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8qEC-IEMmfk/YPQnwEI_ZyI/AAAAAAABHWk/_gTmYPx65JMy2AbSMLs391c_jxsD-33bwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BABOVE%2B1F.jpg)
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: commissarmoody on July 29, 2021, 11:48:43 AM
Great looking arquebusers. And I am really looking forward to seeing some Italian wars from toofatlardies. Got a link to the post about it?
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Captain Blood on July 29, 2021, 01:58:41 PM
Beautiful figures and lovely painting Darrell  :-*
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Lord Raglan on July 29, 2021, 01:59:47 PM
Brilliant stuff as usual 👏

I do hope we get to play a game some day 🙏
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on July 29, 2021, 02:19:29 PM
damn fine apple pie sah!!lovelt banner to boot, an inspiration
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Atheling on July 29, 2021, 07:38:29 PM
Thank you guys :)

Great looking arquebusers. And I am really looking forward to seeing some Italian wars from toofatlardies. Got a link to the post about it?

Yeah, if you bang in @Toofatlaries on twitter and scroll down you will find a heap of stuff. Try this link for starters:
https://twitter.com/TooFatLardies/status/1417568007119847429/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/TooFatLardies/status/1417568007119847429/photo/1)

Beautiful figures

They really are Richard- underrated IMHO. Beautiful crisp castings with barely and flash to remove. The sculpting speaks for itself :)

Brilliant stuff as usual 👏

I do hope we get to play a game some day 🙏

Cheers Gareth. Me too mate, me too!  :'(
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: bigredbat on July 30, 2021, 08:55:21 AM
Super arquebusiers, Darrell!
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Atheling on July 30, 2021, 12:10:11 PM
Super arquebusiers, Darrell!

Thanks Simon :)

I'm going to be using the last figure on the right as El Gran Capitán/Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba plus a few others on the base from different suitable ranges:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GPM2ABLuz2w/YQPrQRpnVCI/AAAAAAABHfM/uAK4G2jVEJwR_13R0fV3uVYHJWfM66MzQCLcBGAsYHQ/s510/REN369-510x260.jpg)

When I saw Pete was releasing the Italian Wars character packs it made me a very happy man. While I realise that they don't always sell as well as the rank and file I would love to see more character packs. It's the trimmings around the edges that really make an army IMHO.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: commissarmoody on July 30, 2021, 06:11:05 PM
Thanks, ill check out there Twitter.
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Orctrader on July 30, 2021, 07:26:49 PM
Gorgeous painting.   :o
Title: Re: To Fornovo and Back Again! Spanish Arquebusiers Page 12-UPDATE 29/07/21
Post by: Atheling on July 31, 2021, 09:05:35 AM
Thanks guys :)

Thanks, ill check out there Twitter.

Well worth a look, the Lardies have posted plenty of pictures of the games but no info, which would be premature as the rules are still in playtest.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.12-UPDATE 05/08
Post by: Atheling on August 05, 2021, 02:23:46 PM
A new post whilst my brush is out of action of the beautifully sculpted and cast Spanish Trastamara range of Arquebusiers from The Assault Group.

The level of detail on these sculpts is tremendous. The casting excellent with very little flash to be removed. Virtually no chunks of mould missing that can sometimes provide a painter with some nasty chunks of metal in need of removal which sometimes presents with other manufacturers, which of course can be a bit dangerous to remove at times.

I really loved painting up this unit. The first unit for of Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba's army for Cerignola (1503) project. I've currently got a unit of pike, cleaned up, undercoated and primed which, being out of action for a wee while, is a little frustrating; I am very eager to get to painting them up! I have a unit of mounted Goths ready and some work to do for a slightly different project as well- I may be able to drop a hint or two about that later but will have to check. :)

So, without further ado/more excessive waffle from me, here are the single bases:

For a more all 'round view of the bases, more images from various angles can be seen on my Just Add WAter Blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/08/spanish-arquebusiers-close-ups-of.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/08/spanish-arquebusiers-close-ups-of.html)


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UE0lLtBVtZ0/YQKNHgoEYUI/AAAAAAABHck/SHsJgLpD2v0ut84MdRH5X6YO9xcZ6KBYwCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BA%2BSINGLE%2BBASES%2B5A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jUz8V6pmnuk/YQKNJJS3eXI/AAAAAAABHcw/GSs78vAEXiM5-QwJsnbUAEc7cFvyLIlEgCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BA%2BSINGLE%2BBASES%2B6A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_ga7XWAqzKM/YQKM7vSaafI/AAAAAAABHb4/-Ch6DLU0lD8MJEFDOFC0bgDhw3WOaWzLQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BA%2BSINGLE%2BBASES%2B1A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-77VZb40yu6E/YQKM8ckJ6xI/AAAAAAABHcA/ywpU8r1FeYQBu3f0KmnOo4Bg4ljvwVm4wCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BA%2BSINGLE%2BBASES%2B2A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4QHCGLizhkM/YQKM8yYgRdI/AAAAAAABHcM/ye4xjTBSoeA-_CkYy0bp-vu7PxvviPmDwCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BA%2BSINGLE%2BBASES%2B3A.jpg)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L9R_nho1zZ0/YQKNG0fy8rI/AAAAAAABHcc/PjbYoSqDKn0RK2yzMWKpsKHCVdxVFX4RQCLcBGAsYHQ/s600/SPANISH%2BARQUEBUSIERS%2BA%2BSINGLE%2BBASES%2B4A.jpg)

Cheers :)
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: macmod on August 05, 2021, 03:11:40 PM
Lovely as always
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Tonhel on August 05, 2021, 05:03:58 PM
Beautiful!
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 05, 2021, 06:22:40 PM
Thanks you guys.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: commissarmoody on August 06, 2021, 11:59:40 AM
Great looking bases of shot!  :D
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 07, 2021, 07:15:47 AM
Great looking bases of shot!  :D

Cheers Commisar!  :)
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Hu Rhu on August 25, 2021, 12:33:25 PM
Just caught up with this. Fantastic painting on those Spanish arquebusiers.  :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: has.been on August 25, 2021, 01:31:46 PM
Nice paint job.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 25, 2021, 03:00:04 PM
Thanks you guys- appreciated :)
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Lord Raglan on August 25, 2021, 06:50:19 PM
You are certainly developing a fabulous collection mate
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 25, 2021, 07:00:11 PM
You are certainly developing a fabulous collection mate

Thanks Gareth mate  :)
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on August 31, 2021, 03:21:25 PM
excellent stuff, hopefully one day I can fight it on the tabletop
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 31, 2021, 03:25:09 PM
excellent stuff, hopefully one day I can fight it on the tabletop

Thanks George. I'm very much looking forward to that day, though I reckon I'll be needing a few more toys to be completed first :)
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Doom Beard 78 on August 31, 2021, 04:51:25 PM
I've run out of unpainted Italian wars figure so I have nothing I can send your way
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on August 31, 2021, 07:28:19 PM
I've run out of unpainted Italian wars figure so I have nothing I can send your way


 lol I've got plenty, they just need painting  lol
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Frostie on September 27, 2021, 08:36:27 PM
Great project, i'm doing similar but with 18mm Blue Moon figures
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Wilgut Spleens on September 28, 2021, 07:44:05 AM
These are great! That is some superb painting abd these are excellent figures! I salute you sir!
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: MGH on September 28, 2021, 02:59:32 PM
Yes, great stuff, looks superb. I'm like Frostie, my Italian Wars stuff is in 18mm Blue Moon.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Metternich on September 30, 2021, 03:31:26 PM
Gorgeous painting.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on September 30, 2021, 04:14:00 PM
Thanks Metternich.

More on the way soon! Some urgently needed house updates were needed and mostly in my studio space  :'(
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: OB on September 30, 2021, 08:19:13 PM
First rate stuff as ever and very useful for those of us beginning our own Spanish collections.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on October 01, 2021, 06:54:39 AM
First rate stuff as ever and very useful for those of us beginning our own Spanish collections.

Thank you for the kind words OB.

The Spanish are my first (modern) foray into The Italian Wars. I've got a stack of Foundry, Steel Fist and The Assault Group miniatures to get through- literally a stack as they will a not fit comfortably in a 64 Litre Very Useful box!   :o lol

I think I'm finally beginning to admit that I cannot justify buying any more miniatures  lol lol
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: commissarmoody on October 01, 2021, 08:03:44 AM

I think I'm finally beginning to admit that I cannot justify buying any more miniatures  lol lol
Steel fist just previewed some new Italian Wars Arquebusiers to be sent to casting in a week or two.  :D
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: OB on October 01, 2021, 10:27:09 AM
That's some lead pile Atheling. 

I've just opened an A4 box full of Venexia Italian Wars 15mm purchased about 3 years ago.  It felt like a mini Christmas.  I'll be diligently following your painting schemes as I set about them.
Title: Re: Italian Wars- Spanish Arquebusiers Close Ups Single Bases P.13-UPDATE 05/08/21
Post by: Atheling on October 01, 2021, 02:19:20 PM
That's some lead pile Atheling. 

It is!  lol I've been collecting Early Renaissance miniatures for many years and only now started to attempt to get a wriggle on with the painting  lol

I've just opened an A4 box full of Venexia Italian Wars 15mm purchased about 3 years ago.  It felt like a mini Christmas.  I'll be diligently following your painting schemes as I set about them.

I know what you mean by a mini Christmas..... I was sorting through all my kit a year or so back and discovered many a box of miniatures I forgot I had bought! And that's after the great Atheling clear out!  o_o lol I probably have enough to keep me going until I drop but that fact is very unlikely to stop me from buying anything new. I think it's called addiction  :D

Those Venexia Early Renaissance miniatures are great. I look forward to seeing what you do with them OB  8)

Steel fist just previewed some new Italian Wars Arquebusiers to be sent to casting in a week or two.  :D

I've seen them and they will obviously be voraciously gobbled up  lol