Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Mick_in_Switzerland on August 26, 2019, 12:44:39 PM
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Over the past year, we have had the Yellow Vest protests in France and the Democracy Protests in Hong Kong. In both cases, the protests have gone on for many weeks and months, sometimes peaceful and sometimes violent. Often both sides change their tactics from week to week and this changes public opinion.
There have also been huge, mostly peaceful, pro and anti Brexit rallies and climate change protests in London, England.
Has anybody tried to turn this into a wargame or rather a simulation? actually, I want to create a "not war-game".
I was wondering whether you could use rules like The Men Who Would Be Kings to simulate a small number of regular forces i.e. Police against an enormous number of irregular tribal forces i.e. Protestors. TMWWBK has a section called Mr Babbage, which makes the tribal forces behave according to predefined rules. This allows the regular forces player to solo play against the tribal forces.
I am thinking of playing various scenarios with victory points based on objectives such as
- Protesters earn points for keeping areas (streets) closed for a number of turns
- Police win points for moving protesters from designated areas
- Both sides win or lose public opinion points based on their good or bad behaviour or reaction to it.
Does anything like this exist?
Thanks
Mick
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I'm sure that was a rule book and figures out called No Go Zone.
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Aggro - the 70's Football Hooligan rules coild easily be tweaked
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There are a lot of "Area Control" boardgames out there that would provide a framework:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamemechanic/2080/area-control-area-influence
You would need to come up with the specific city street maps and such.
I think you could do a really interesting version of a game like Carcassonne for the larger social media organised riots.
In the past a few guys in my old games group tried playing lower level games (on the front line barricades) but they were just dark age wargames without anyone dying in battle, no real sense of context.
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There are a lot of "Area Control" boardgames out there that would provide a framework:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamemechanic/2080/area-control-area-influence
You would need to come up with the specific city street maps and such.
I think you could do a really interesting version of a game like Carcassonne for the larger social media organised riots.
I agree it would make more sense at a slightly abstracted level.
Re-working carcasonne to be a-symetrical with 6mm riots and police would be interesting. Doing the tiles would be time consuming but awesome. Alternatively, you could look at single-player contagion style games, trying to stop the spread of a horde of zombies or disease has the same sort of tactical challenge. Of course personally I would prefer playing the riot.
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I'm sure that was a rule book and figures out called No Go Zone.
Warmacre.
The rules use the extended rock-paper-scissors mechanic.
The figures however sucked.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VBVLjIlbBtc/Ts887PHoqSI/AAAAAAAAAF0/2yExLtRemdQ/s1600/nogopolice1.png)
A Crooked Dice Man from 3000 for comparison.
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I am sure Jim Webster covered this sort of conflict, complete with escalation.
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I thought hard about this quite a few years ago. Came up with quite a few detail bits on escalating tensions, but never quite had the break through on what core rules could be created.
This process got launched when I happened upon a superb book, Crowds and Riots by Sam Wright, in the library stacks while I was doing research on a completely different topic. The book went into my check-out pile, and I've since bought my own copy through https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=sam%20wright&bi=0&bx=off&cm_sp=SearchF-_-Advtab1-_-Results&ds=30&recentlyadded=all&sortby=17&sts=t&tn=Crowds%20and%20Riots
This book is must [and entertaining] reading based on actual field research. The appendix on how to prepare for and survive doing field research is required reading for anyone planning their own sociological field studies!
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Thank-you for all of the comments and suggestions.
I still like the idea of a miniatures game with "units" of protesters and police. I am thinking of it being a bit like a dark ages battle.
Perhaps the table would be a square grid map with certain areas having a high value e.g. the street in front of a government building and other side streets having a low value.
Protesters would range from family & OAP marchers (timid but also moving scenery blocking both sides), to angry but unarmed youths, up to organised & aggressive rioters in helmets, gas masks & shields.
Police could have units of standard non threatening police, passive riot equipped police, non lethal missiles, tear gas, snatch squads, cavalry and vehicles.
Both sides could set up barricades or fences.
I will think more about how this could work.
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https://offensiveminiatures.com/catalogue.asp?cat=Near%20Future
Some figures for rioters and police
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If you want to try this on a larger scale with higher stakes (and more direct violence) there is the free solo wargame "Irish freedom" which does include mobs and irregulars of different levels. Its a map and chit game, but could do with some 6mm figure stands instead!
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/147372/irish-freedom (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/147372/irish-freedom)
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The Offensive Miniatures are wonderful but I am thinking more of bases of 10mm figures and N Guage vehicles.
Pendraken have Zombies and Survivors which would work as the crowds and rioters. I think they also have WW2 partizans etc.
For the Police, I could use WW2 or modern soldiers and add Roman shields. I could also use WW1 cavalry.
Pendraken also have Landrovers, ambulance, modern armoured cars, etc
I will read up descriptions of the rules that you have suggested - thank-you everybody.
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Irregular Miniatures had a game in the early 80s (or late 70s) around the same time as they brought out Tusk! (mammoth hunting) but no idea what the rules were called. It was about the era when wargames shows used to get CND protesters attending.
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I did some internet surfing and found that this will be relatively easy to do in N-Gauge as there are many items available for model railways including people and cars. Some items can be bought from China on Ebay for very low prices.
N-Gauge people x 100
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/100-Model-Railway-Train-Scenery-Mixed-Figure-People-Standing-Sitting-N-Scale/1487621656?iid=281869399332 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/100-Model-Railway-Train-Scenery-Mixed-Figure-People-Standing-Sitting-N-Scale/1487621656?iid=281869399332)
N-Gauge Police x 56
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/56Pcs-1-150-Scale-Mini-Plastic-Constable-Action-Figure-Multicolor-Police/163577728624?hash=item2615fe0e70:g:oeUAAOSwLgFcfKLN (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/56Pcs-1-150-Scale-Mini-Plastic-Constable-Action-Figure-Multicolor-Police/163577728624?hash=item2615fe0e70:g:oeUAAOSwLgFcfKLN)
N-Gauge Cars
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100x-N-Gauge-1-150-Scale-painted-Model-Cars-for-Building-Park-Street-Layout/271492721738?epid=11022925899&hash=item3f363a2c4a:g:iKcAAOSwKKBbTHWw (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100x-N-Gauge-1-150-Scale-painted-Model-Cars-for-Building-Park-Street-Layout/271492721738?epid=11022925899&hash=item3f363a2c4a:g:iKcAAOSwKKBbTHWw)
I will have to experiment to see if I can mix Pendraken and N-Gauge.
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Hello Mick, there used to be an hex-and-counters wargame called "Corteo" (Protest March) back in the '70s that does exactly what you are trying to achieve. I have it somewhere around the house, but I am afraid it is just in italian. It was heavily based on the political groups that were around in 1977 in Italy, where we had a very strong protest season, and it even got retired by the government at the time because it was alleged that march organizers used it to plan their tactics.
The board is of an imaginary city (the streets have uite humorous names in italian) but you can recognize some real life places, it features all the different kinds of police (urban, carabinieri, anti riot and so on) and a lot of different faction of protesters, from the more peaceful to the more aggressive. It has a number of scenarios where the police task is mainly to direct the way the march goes and avoid looting or riot, while the protesters have different aims from reaching a specific point (like the government building or the tv broadcast center) or disrupting the parade of some foreign leader (surely an evil dictator...)
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This is the set Irregular produced http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/20mmRanges/20mmRiot.htm
Available in 6mm and 15mm along with 20s.
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A friend did a matched pair of 'armies' for Hordes of the Things.
Poll tax protesters v Police. He claimed that (as a protester) this was
the nearest he ever came to being in a 'battle'. He did a stylised battlefield based
on London. Tourist type map for the base, London souvenirs (Tower Bridge, Big ben etc.)
as scenery. Bases of protesters/rioters had banners (Maggie Out, No Poll tax etc.)
Mounted police were 'knights', a helicopter was an Aerial, a base of news crew were sneakers,
an so on.
A good game for controlling the streets is Junta. Change military units for protesters/rioters.
When (many decades ago) I was still at school, there was a series of really big protests/riots
in Japan over a possible extension to a major airport. The left wing students wore building site
protective headgear & cut down local bamboo to make long spears. The Riot Police had large
rectangular shields & batons. There was a picture in one of the big papers of the riot, with both
sides really 'going for it'. I had just started wargaming & thought that must be something like
what a Macedonian v Roman battle must have looked like.
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Thank-you everybody for the great ideas and suggestions.
@Vanth
Corteo does appear to be close to the concept that I have in mind. I have found some more details on the internet.
I will see if I can find a copy of the rules. It appears to be quite rare now.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9504/corteo (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9504/corteo)
@has.been
Your friend's Hordes game on a map of London is very interesting. My first idea was to use Lion Rampant or The Men Who Would Be Kings. However, I now thinking to something that is part wargame and part boardgame with a square grid or hexes.
Junta sounds interesting but from the description here it is not really about control of the streets in the way that I am imagining.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/242/junta (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/242/junta)
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A suggestion. Do not do a hex/square grid. Mark your board up with irregular shapes.
That means you create (realistic) 'invasion' routes, such as the Fulda gap in Germany
(a major way for invaders). This makes for better choices (We will stop the Persians
at Thermopalae, or They will not expect an attack through the Ardenne)
Just a thought.
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A suggestion. Do not do a hex/square grid. Mark your board up with irregular shapes.
That means you create (realistic) 'invasion' routes, such as the Fulda gap in Germany
(a major way for invaders). This makes for better choices (We will stop the Persians
at Thermopalae, or They will not expect an attack through the Ardenne)
Just a thought.
I've seen that technique used to good effect in a number of boardgames, one, the name of which escapes me, created long thin areas around railway lines that touched multiple other areas around it, so that it enabled rapid movement between multiple areas. As a result, control of the railway line areas became important much as it was historically.
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Thank Mick for starting this post, just given me the nudge I needed to revisit a failed project about civil unrest in modern times.
Following with interest.
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The Troubles and undercover British would make for a good scenario here - I know of a few who served against the Irish in that role.
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Mick,
Are you on The Miniatures Page? Ages ago, mid-1970s I think someone ran games at the Miniature Figure Collectors of America convention (beforenthe HMGS cons). I am fairly certain the rules were home brewed. Asking on TMP, might jar the memory of someone who was involved. It was as I recall anti war protestors vs. police.
Nick
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Dear Nick
I am still on TMP but I do not visit very often. I will post on there and see if I get any suggestions.
Best Regards
Mic
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Theirs a game on wargamedownloads which may help, could juggle the rules.
Re-Route: The Marching Season Game Re-Route: The Marching Season Game covers 10 weeks during the 12th July
Orange Marches in Northern Ireland when passions and sectarianism are inflamed. The game is set in a typical year during the worst disturbances sparked by the annual Drumcree Orange Parade along the Garvaghy Road (1995-2000).
The game requires 3 players: The Loyalist player represents certain members of the Protestant community in Northern Ireland, such as the Orange Order, and various paramilitaries (e.g. UVF, LVF, UFF, RHC). The Republican player represents certain members of the Catholic community in the Occupied Six
Counties, such as Residents' Groups, and various paramilitaries (e.g. pIRA, cIRA, rIRA, INLA). The final player represents the Royal Ulster Constabulary police force (RUC). The Republican and Loyalist players use cards to influence regions on a map of Northern Ireland, reacting to one another and actions of the RUC player whose objective, in this game, is to reduce the influence of both the Loyalists and the Republicans.
The crux of the game is in judicious playing of the cards: The Loyalists
play a March card in Armagh - will you, as the RUC player, allow it to go ahead and risk a Republican Riot; or do you Re-Route that March and risk a Loyalist reaction that may itself provoke a worse Republican reaction?
Should have kept that Tear-Gas card...
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There was a set produced by the Society of Ancients fro riots in Rome, that we adapted to the Wars of the Roses and used for a demo game at a show once - that might have some ideas you could pinch...
Mike
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Thank-you for all f the suggestions.
@manchesterreg
Re-Route: The Marching Season Game looks to be a very good start so I have just bought it.
http://wargamedownloads.com/item.php?item=315&pics=2 (http://wargamedownloads.com/item.php?item=315&pics=2)
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I can recall Civil Disorder, which covered more or less the kind of encounters you talked about.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/66654/civil-disorder
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Dear Suber,
Thank-you for the link.
I was able to download a free 25 page PDF of the rules but I had to join the site first.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/66654/civil-disorder/files (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/66654/civil-disorder/files)
They look very good and I will give them go.
Civil Disorder looks like a very comprehensive and well written set of rules.
They were originally written in 1983 and the second edition was published in 2001.
The game is designed for about 200 figures and 4-6 players so it looks like it would be a good game for a club.
The rules are a very typical able top wargame in style.
This looks like it has most of the things that I want.
I may have to simplify it a bit so that it flows with two players.
I will probable buy N-gauge pre painted civilians for the crowd and convert Pendraken figures for Police and vehicles.
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Glad you found it useful. I've used a few ideas from here for totally unrelated settings, and the general concept works nice, no matter what. I'd love to see what you do in the end :)
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I have been watching the news with interest. I am still not sure whether this is going to be better as a boardgame or a wargame. I haven't bought anything or built anything yet.
Today, Extinction Rebellion protesters are blocking major intersections and bridges in London, Amsterdam, Sydney and many other cities around the world. They are pre prepared with vehicles (one case a hearse and in another case a van with a horse box) that they stop at a junction and then jump out and chain themselves to it. London protests are quite polite (posh even) but the police are gentle but firm and are arresting them and moving them away. This feels like it would work as a boardgame with lots of incident cards (like Chance in Monopoly).
Hong Kong is quite different. There are two levels - in the daytime you have peaceful marches, and then in the evening the militant young adults fight the police. The Police are much more brutal with tear gas, water cannon, rubber bullets and even real firearms. The tougher the government and police are, the tougher the reaction from the protesters. The protesters are using clubs, throwing bricks and Molotov cocktails and setting up barricades. The protesters are also doing significant damage to property. As somebody commented earlier in the thread, this could almost be done as a dark age's wargame.
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A few years back someone did a German beer riot game at Tactica. Based on an actual riot over the prices of beer. The goal was to reach the brewery with your mob at the correct level of "drunkenness" To sober and they would loose their will to riot and to drunk they lost their ability to riot.
It was great fun.
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I have decided to go ahead with this in N Gauge - which is 1:150 so should be the same as Pendraken figures.
I have just bought 50 cars, 2 juggernauts, 6 single decker buses, 200 civilians and 56 police from Chinese traders on Ebay for £27 including P&P.
I expect they will take about 4 weeks to arrive in the post.
These will be the basis for the crowd, police units, police vehicles, civilian vehicles, a water cannon truck and burnt out wrecks.
I already have some Pendraken SF Marine figures to make riot police and survivors to represent militant protesters.
I will start to develop my thoughts into an actual game.
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You are going to need plenty of parks and plazas to battle over otherwise city streets with tall buildings on each side will make player access difficult in that small scale.
Or use an indicative "tall" building of only a few storeys.
Will be interested to see how your set develops.
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For the start, I will draw a map of central London on a tablecloth. I plan to squeeze the horizontal scale down so that I have Buckingham Palace (West edge) to Trafalgar Square (North edge) to Parliament (South edge) and Westminster Bridge (East edge). This gives a lot of famous places to protest in front of.
I think this will fit onto 180cm x 120cm and allow the roads to be 25mm wide per traffic lane - so that the Mall is 150m wide, major roads are 100m wide and minor roads 50mm wide. This should work with 1:150 scale N Gauge vehicles and figures.
The crowd will be on 50mm square bases with possibly 15 figures per base. Some bases will have banners and placards.
I will probably not have buildings for home use, but I am sure it could make a spectacular convention game.
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Sounds like a good solution.
Have you got one of these for clearing the crusties from the streets?
http://spur-n.com/fahrzeug31/tomyteccvc01g.jpg (http://spur-n.com/fahrzeug31/tomyteccvc01g.jpg)
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I have just started to draw this to scale in Excel. I realised that this is actually quite a huge project so I will start with a small part (Parliament to Trafalgar Square) to do the testing.
I have also found some kits to make the Houses of Parliament and Buckingham Palace.
Here is one of the Parliament kits
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kurio-16971-0-Londons-Parliament-Monument/dp/B01J5NIQBM/ref=pd_sbs_21_10?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01J5NIQBM&pd_rd_r=1d285aee-9365-4903-b8ad-926f9125167c&pd_rd_w=NVa56&pd_rd_wg=sKBx2&pf_rd_p=cc188cba-1892-42b3-956f-6c67d0ab7a00&pf_rd_r=DVHJWK1Q95MFG0M5N6KY&psc=1&refRID=DVHJWK1Q95MFG0M5N6KY (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kurio-16971-0-Londons-Parliament-Monument/dp/B01J5NIQBM/ref=pd_sbs_21_10?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B01J5NIQBM&pd_rd_r=1d285aee-9365-4903-b8ad-926f9125167c&pd_rd_w=NVa56&pd_rd_wg=sKBx2&pf_rd_p=cc188cba-1892-42b3-956f-6c67d0ab7a00&pf_rd_r=DVHJWK1Q95MFG0M5N6KY&psc=1&refRID=DVHJWK1Q95MFG0M5N6KY)
Here is Buckingham Palace
https://www.amazon.co.uk/CubicFun-Buckingham-Palace-London-Puzzle/dp/B00D2PXJYY/ref=pd_bxgy_21_3/259-3564165-0232309?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00D2PXJYY&pd_rd_r=7700542c-eb20-4997-a2c5-4ab19b544254&pd_rd_w=jvgeT&pd_rd_wg=HqTwu&pf_rd_p=31fcc995-2418-43ae-a37c-f1ef453a46b3&pf_rd_r=JHA6A4P6MYTE9WQ19VJP&psc=1&refRID=JHA6A4P6MYTE9WQ19VJP (https://www.amazon.co.uk/CubicFun-Buckingham-Palace-London-Puzzle/dp/B00D2PXJYY/ref=pd_bxgy_21_3/259-3564165-0232309?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00D2PXJYY&pd_rd_r=7700542c-eb20-4997-a2c5-4ab19b544254&pd_rd_w=jvgeT&pd_rd_wg=HqTwu&pf_rd_p=31fcc995-2418-43ae-a37c-f1ef453a46b3&pf_rd_r=JHA6A4P6MYTE9WQ19VJP&psc=1&refRID=JHA6A4P6MYTE9WQ19VJP)
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Economist article about the organisational structure of Extinction Rebellion.
https://www.economist.com/britain/2019/10/10/how-the-anarchists-of-extinction-rebellion-got-so-well-organised?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/powerandprotesthowtheanarchistsofextinctionrebelliongotsowellorganisedbritain&fbclid=IwAR073jmqC1ux_H5iLXqgqqHuFOELwhFBqf5EO2WqtrSmBh1mC5yoOU_aegI (https://www.economist.com/britain/2019/10/10/how-the-anarchists-of-extinction-rebellion-got-so-well-organised?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/powerandprotesthowtheanarchistsofextinctionrebelliongotsowellorganisedbritain&fbclid=IwAR073jmqC1ux_H5iLXqgqqHuFOELwhFBqf5EO2WqtrSmBh1mC5yoOU_aegI)
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I can recall Civil Disorder, which covered more or less the kind of encounters you talked about.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/66654/civil-disorder
Thanks, I might give this a go.
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Interesting article on BBC news
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50123743 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50123743)
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Thanks, I might give this a go.
So I did give this a go, and have made a report about it below. I am now looking forward to running it properly over xmas.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NVROYLOoJZ8/Xdf0NmZL4QI/AAAAAAAAFug/EdiUuLT4eHIaju3nznUgO2iOKMFFbck9QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSCF1366.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a4TFUPxZRy4/Xdf0TPLXKEI/AAAAAAAAFvY/b0jfWIgNi9cdxtziDnxB_dYbL0GDCy95QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSCF1438.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UnLAI43mzU0/Xdf0UTxYyPI/AAAAAAAAFvk/3283DniXpc0luXgxUZ67NwbM_AYDgyzdwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSCF1449.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yxmiMSIOP74/XdhFPNolUSI/AAAAAAAAFx8/txrxEy2obFcWl3ax5-hpX-oKxLFXSgHcgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSCF1608.JPG)
https://tewblogger.blogspot.com/2019/11/civil-disorder-trial-1.html (https://tewblogger.blogspot.com/2019/11/civil-disorder-trial-1.html)
https://tewblogger.blogspot.com/2019/11/civil-disorder-trial-2.html (https://tewblogger.blogspot.com/2019/11/civil-disorder-trial-2.html)
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@Monkeylite
That looks amazing - well done :o :-*
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Idea to game civil protests. N gauge model railway vehicles and figures. 20p to show how small this is.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49128902361_52e61d3f81_o.jpg)
These ready painted vehicles and figures come from China and cost peanuts.
The crowd bases are 40mm x 40mm. The figures will be repainted at some point.
However, the figures have small feet so they have very little strength when glued on a base.
In the foreground on the right are some Pendraken space marines who are metal gaming figures and much more robust.
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They look cool. What rules did you decide to use?
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I am trying to develop my own rules but without much success. :-[