Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Condottiere on September 09, 2019, 02:01:02 AM
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Let's get controversial... ;)
Longbow Origins Before Crecy - Was It Really Welsh? (https://www.bowyers.com/LongbowOrigins.pdf)
So, Was The Longbow Really Welsh?
In a word: no. The Welsh archers at Crecy and Poitiers were paid mercenaries, shooting English longbows; no longbows were ever commissioned from Wales. The scaled up 6’ longbow was developed in England, between 1300 and 1320, in a large-scale English Army context. The draw-weight power of the small but strong South Welsh bows must have been one of the influences that inspired a scaling up of the English bow; quite possibly it was picked up by the elite Cheshire archers while on service in Wales with Edward I. The adoption of the springier self-yew bow stave in the 1290s (not a Welsh thing) will have improved the efficiency of Edward I’s English Army arrowstorms, and must also have been a great facilitating factor in scaling up to the 6’ longbow.The young King Edward III will have seen the new longbow in the 1320s and will have seen in it the power that would enable him to take on the heavily armoured French knights, and the weapon around which he could build his battle strategies, to give the longbow its legendary battle-winning success
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Where’s the quote from?
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There are many claims on the origin of the longbow
here is one http://www.themiddleages.net/longbow.html (http://www.themiddleages.net/longbow.html)
"The longbow was used in the Middle Ages both for hunting and as a weapon of war and reached its zenith of perfection as a weapon in the hands of English and Welsh archers. The longbow was first recorded as being used by the Welsh in 633 C.E., when Offrid, the son of Edwin, king of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow shot from a Welsh longbow during a battle between the Welsh and the Mercians -- more than five centuries before any record of its military use in England."
There are, no doubt, many other claims. Like the French
https://www.bowyers.com/bowyery_briefHistory.php (https://www.bowyers.com/bowyery_briefHistory.php)
Although archery was adopted in England as early as the battle of Northallerton in 1138, it is to the 1251 Statue of Henry III that we turn to see the requirement for citizens to muster for warfare with bows and arrows; and this marks its formal acceptance as a weapon of war; an acceptance which, through the power of its limbs and the strength required, was to dub the brawny bowmen who used it "Milices redoubtable. La fleur des archiers du monde"
Even more
http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/longbow/longbow-chronology.html (http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval/longbow/longbow-chronology.html)
So like many things the origin of the "longbow" is obscure and may not ever have a definitive answer.
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Where’s the quote from?
The linked article... ;)
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The linked article... ;)
Reformatted the link to be blue. The red is tricky to see in this template.
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Thanks Chris.
The paper concerned sets out all the background and arguments exhaustively. Why rehash it here? Seems, as you admit, like controversy for controversy’s sake. In which case, please don’t.
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Thanks Chris.
The paper concerned sets out all the background and arguments exhaustively. Why rehash it here? Seems, as you admit, like controversy for controversy’s sake. In which case, please don’t.
It was meant in jest... lol
I brought it up, as it hasn't been covered before. Instead of Welsh 'self' bows handed to English yeoman, the stave itself was modified from the original. The article isn't exhaustive: it doesn't mention the number of French subjects enrolled as archers in the various armies. I came across this article while looking for information on troops recruited from the Plantagenet territories.
If you want to, go ahead lock or delete this thread...
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The earliest prehistoric bows found are 'longbows'
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The earliest prehistoric bows found are 'longbows'
You missed the point of the article. :(
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If the Welsh had been able to deploy archers as a battle winning weapon in the HYW sense, then you’d have thought that there would have been even longer wars in Wales. So I personally - as a Welshman - suspect that my forbears used the bow as a short range ambush weapon and that it was developed east of Offas Dyke. Once the longbow was established or was being developed, what English king in his right mind would arm the Welsh in any great number with it? Asking for trouble, right?
That said, the article was written by/for the London Company of Bowyers - who are surely have a vested interest, bluntly, “he would say that, wouldn’t he?”
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"The Welsh hunt Leeks from afar with great bows hewn from the tree Baccata ". Bro. David,Gilbertine monk circa 1158.
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"The Welsh hunt Leeks from afar with great bows hewn from the tree Baccata ". Bro. David,Gilbertine monk circa 1158.
I thought they used it to hunt the Welsh Rabbit, or as others prefer, Rarebit. Must take a rare bit of luck to hit something disguised as a toasted cheese sandwich.
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I thought they used it to hunt the Welsh Rabbit, or as others prefer, Rarebit. Must take a rare bit of luck to hit something disguised as a toasted cheese sandwich.
Now you’re just being silly. lol
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No doubt the Honourable Company of Cheesemakers will be along to claim that Welsh Rarebit was actually invented in 1564 by a cheeseshop owner in Westminster.
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The "longbow" was reasonably ubiquitous around Western Europe would be my response and within what we now call the UK. IMHO it was really a matter of how they were deployed and used in their battlefield roll that is the question of whether they become the longbow of English use(?). For example where one the body the bow was drawn back to. The cheek or the ear? That sort of stuff.
One way to address the question is maybe to ask if the "longbow" was used at Hastings, though probably not to the same effect as in later centuries.
(As many on this particular section of the forum will know, during the latter stages of the HYW and certainly post 1453 here were were certainly efforts on the continent to replicate the use of the bow in English armies).
Kind Regards
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No doubt the Honourable Company of Cheesemakers will be along to claim that Welsh Rarebit was actually invented in 1564 by a cheeseshop owner in Westminster.
Did someone pull an Ocean's Eleven on you with a grilled cheese sandwich, like these fellows in Shakespeare's tale? :D
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29821/29821-h/29821-h.htm (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29821/29821-h/29821-h.htm)
¶ Of Seynt Peter that cryed cause bobe. lxxvi.
¶ I fynde wrytten amonge olde gestes, howe God mayde Saynt Peter porter of heuen, and that God of hys goodnes, sone after his passyon, suffered many men to come to the kyngdome of Heuen with small deseruynge; at whiche tyme there was in heuen a great company of Welchemen, whyche with their crakynge and babelynge troubled all the other. Wherfore God sayde to saynte Peter, that he was wery of them, and that he wolde fayne haue them out of heuen. To whome saynte Peter sayd: Good Lorde, I warrente you, that shal be done. Wherfore saynt Peter wente out of heuen gates and cryed wyth a loud voyce Cause bobe, that is as moche to saye as rosted chese, whiche thynge the Welchemen herynge, ranne out of Heuen a great pace. And when Saynt Peter sawe them all out, he sodenly wente into Heuen, and locked the dore, and so sparred all the Welchemen out.
By this ye may se, that it is no wysdome for a man to loue or to set his mynde to moche vpon any delycate or worldely pleasure, wherby he shall lose the celestyall and eternall ioye.
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Caws pobi. It’s caws pobi and it’s our gift to the culinary world.
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The "longbow" was reasonably ubiquitous around Western Europe would be my response and within what we now call the UK. IMHO it was really a matter of how they were deployed and used in their battlefield roll that is the question of whether they become the longbow of English use(?). For example where one the body the bow was drawn back to. The cheek or the ear? That sort of stuff.
One way to address the question is maybe to ask if the "longbow" was used at Hastings, though probably not to the same effect as in later centuries.
(As many on this particular section of the forum will know, during the latter stages of the HYW and certainly post 1453 here were were certainly efforts on the continent to replicate the use of the bow in English armies).
Kind Regards
In his Osprey title, Mike Loades suggests the archers at Hastings were using composite bows, but these could've been shortbows - hard to tell from the tapestry.
Was the effort at replication based on the bow or the tactics attached to the use of the bow? The best wood was imported from the continent and while self-bows were common, so why weren't there any Italian longbowmen? In Italian Militiaman 1260–1392, David Nicolle mentions mentions massed archery using hand, self and composite bows giving way to crossbows. John Hawkwood had about 400 or 500 English archers at Castagnaro 1387 and the hail of arrows goaded the Veronese into advancing, but I don't recall a mass demand in the following years itenerant archers from the Isles. Charles the Bold employed plenty of Englishmen, yet they barely made an impact in his wars.
From a 2015 issue of The Journal of LAW & ECONOMICS: Institutionally Constrained Technology Adoption: Resolving the Longbow Puzzle (https://www.peterleeson.com/Longbow.pdf)
For over a century the longbow reigned as undisputed king of medieval European missile weapons. Yet only England used the longbow as a mainstay in its military arsenal; France and Scotland clung to the technologically inferior cross-bow. This longbow puzzle has perplexed historians for decades. We resolve it by developing a theory of institutionally constrained technology adoption. Unlike the crossbow, the longbow was cheap and easy to make and required rulers who adopted the weapon to train large numbers of citizens in its use. These features enabled usurping nobles whose rulers adopted the longbow to potentially organize effective rebellions against them. Rulers choosing between missile technologies thus confronted a trade-off with respect to internal and external security. England alone in late medieval Europe was sufficiently politically stable to allow its rulers the first-best technology option. In France and Scotland political instability prevailed, constraining rulers in these nations to the crossbow.
While there's some info in it for simulationists planning campaigns :D and I find the authors' theories interesting, though the importance of political instability is given too much importance, they ignore the role of tactics in favor of hyping the longbow and belittling the crossbow. At Verneuil 1424, the lack of prepared postions, resulted in the archers being overrun by the Lombard men-at-arms.
Footnote 23: At the battle of Courtrai, for instance, the small principality of Flanders was able to muster an army of archers larger than the army of the entire kingdom of France, which consisted of knights and men-at-arms (Rogers 1993, p. 252). In this sense, a weapon like the longbow allows for the military enfranchisement of commoners, which institutionally constrains the ruler.
Ignored is the role of the marshy terrain and infantry with polearms, like pikes and goedendags.
Footnote 24: A longbow-equipped rebellion against a longbow-equipped king would likely end in the latter’s defeat. The probable victor would depend strongly on which side had the larger number of archers, and given the longbow’s cheapness, rebel archers could outnumber the king’s. Hence, a king would adopt the longbow only if he were politically secure. In contrast, given the expense of crossbows, a crossbow-equipped rebellion against a crossbow-equipped king was very unlikely. Hence, a politi-cally insecure king could adopt the crossbow
Oh dear... ;D
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Caws pobi. It’s caws pobi and it’s our gift to the culinary world.
Ever used mayonnaise on the face down side of the slice? I hear it not only gives the bottom a fine crust and prevents the upper layer from drying out.
I was thinking of combining caws pobi with a layer of Nutella between the slice and the cheese... >:D
A shame Trader Joe's no longer carries this English import (http://frothersunite.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42342&p=850855&hilit=chocolate+cheddar#p850855)! :(
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pObeQJd6kQ4/TzVgaPk4PEI/AAAAAAAAAPI/ydT5MdEED-E/s1600/TraderJoesChocolateCheddar.JPG)(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yiHlejTANAk/TzVgaUif1HI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/PFXMR0EY3dI/s1600/TraderJoesChocolateCheddarCloseup.JPG)
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Mayonaisse on toast? Chocolate cheese? We are Welshmen, sir, not savages.
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Caws pobi. It’s caws pobi and it’s our gift to the culinary world.
There was I thinking it was laverbread.
Actually, given the very Trumpian skin colour that Tom Jones and Engelbert Humperdinck adopted in their later years, not to mention the countless thousands of young women out on the piss in Cardiff, one could be forgiven for thinking it was Terry’s Chocolate Oranges. ;)
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Looking forward to the new osprey title " Grilled cheese snacks of the early medieval West"!
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Nah it’s not laverbread; there’s a shortage of that as Snowdon hasn’t erupted for a while.