Lead Adventure Forum

Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Koyote on September 19, 2019, 09:44:58 PM

Title: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on September 19, 2019, 09:44:58 PM
Now that Adepticon SAGA tournaments are segregated by source books, if one wants to play in multiple Adepticon SAGA tournaments one must either bring multiple warbands or a single warband that can be played using rules from different source books.  Since I travel to Adepticon by air, that former option is much less appealing, so my next Adepticon warband will be Moors.  This will allow me to play in the Age of Crusades tournament as Moors, in the Age of Vikings tournament as Umayyads (early Moors), and in the Age of Magic tournament (you can follow my AoM Desert Nomads HERE (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=118478.15) by scrolling down to the last post of the page).

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8948/XWxhI4.jpg)

I want my Moors to represent the Berber/Tuareg elements that invaded and occupied Iberia.  As such, they will wear the distinctive Tuareg blue/indigo garments.  And while I do dearly love the Little Big Men Studio's shield transfers, I'm going to pass on them this time around in favor simple leather shields of the desert nomads.  With this same principle in mind, I'm going to pass on the decorative and sometimes very ornate aljubas (robes) and stick to solid colors, at least for my rank and file.  I've also decided to take some liberties with my Berber's skin color, and paint it a bit darker to represent Tuareg's with more Sub-Saharan blood.

I am really struggling to find just the right recipe for blue.  The dark blue paints that I've used thus far all seem to dry with a semi-gloss finish.  If I can't find the right paint or combinations of paint and wash, I may end up hand painting blue parts with a matte varnish.

Here's my first test model.  The photo quality is quite poor, but it gives you the basic idea of what my rank and file troops will look like.  I repainted the blue on this model 3 times, and I still don't care for it, so this model (sans the shield) is currently sitting in a jar of Simple Green.  Back to the drawing board.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5356/dkqfB4.jpg)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on September 21, 2019, 11:50:52 PM
I'm much happier with this recipe.  The blue is Army Painter's Deep Blue, highlighted with a mixture of Deep Blue and Army Painter's Griffon Blue.

I added a light drybrush of GW's Tallarn Sand around the bottom of the robes to made the robe edges look dusty and a bit worn. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6182/ZEGyE3.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: von Lucky on September 22, 2019, 02:59:40 AM
I like this blue, and will follow with interest.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Harry Faversham on September 22, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6182/ZEGyE3.jpg)

By Jove, I think he's got it!

 :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on September 22, 2019, 09:59:39 AM
Great stuff  8).

As far as blues go there is a lot of choice.

My preference is to try to use Vallejo as they are very matt when applied (unless you use their gloss paints!!) and they have an excellent selection of very dark blues that you can lighten up with say, Ivory or any other light colour that doesn't make the blue veer towards a green hue. I tend to avoid using white as it gives too stark a look as you lighten up the layers.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on September 27, 2019, 04:43:33 PM
I've started work 'gussying up' my Moors' bases.  I've added rocks, skulls, bones, and some scorpions from Black Cat Bases' Small Animal model line. Of course, I still need to add sand.

I've read that the Moors used drums for their psychological effect, so along with a standard and a unit leader, I've included a drummer in each of my units of spearmen.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1954/6ecvy9.jpg)

Black Cat Bases' scorpion sprue.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7635/t9yLlL.png)

I'm having second thoughts on my choice of shields.  The Artizan Design hide shields are quite nice, but they are rather large and kind of bland.  I ordered Footsore Miniatures' Arab Truncated Teardrop Shield pack, along with the accompanying Little Big Men Studio's decals.  I like proportions of the Footsore shields better and the decals that I selected aren't too flashy, so they fit my Tuareg/Berber theme well enough.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1466/4JyQXv.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9688/7M9a76.png)

GB's Arab Spearmen kit doesn't include enough heads wrapped in a tagelmust (the long scarf used as a turban and veil) for both units of spearmen, so for the unit of spearmen pictured on the left, I'm going to use greenstuff to sculpt a length of scarf that hangs from the sides of their helmets, similar to model pictured below.  I'll likely do the same with my cavalry models that aren't wearing a tagelmust.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1539/jr2Pxl.png)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: von Lucky on September 27, 2019, 10:15:02 PM
New shield option seems sensible. (I like reading about your overall thought processes.)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 01, 2019, 06:33:52 AM
The scarves turned out pretty good.  I think they add a lot to the models.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4526/RU88N7.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Breazer on October 01, 2019, 06:59:57 AM
They sure do. I wish i was this good with greenstuff... it always looks so crisp when you do it. How did you master that?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: jamopower on October 02, 2019, 05:05:03 AM
Really nice update on those models. The neck is surely a weak spot in those models and this mitigates it quite well.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 02, 2019, 07:13:19 AM
Great stuff.

The one thing I always feel when I see someone going to the extent of doing conversions is passion  8)

With the new Baron's War range coming out soon I'm sorely tempted to try some mid-Reconquista modelling myself.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Deserter on October 02, 2019, 10:53:42 AM
These look gorgeous - the test mini is top notch and the Black Cat Bases sprue is a brilliant touch.

Your posts are always mega inspiring!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 02, 2019, 03:13:18 PM
They sure do. I wish i was this good with greenstuff... it always looks so crisp when you do it. How did you master that?
Thanks.

I'm self taught and my sculpting skills are fairly modest.  I can do belts and straps and patch damaged bits of models, but I'm light years away from being a proper sculptor.  What I have learned is to use my fingers and metal tools to form the basic shapes and then to use clay shapers to refine the shapes and to smooth the surfaces.  The clay shaper I get the most use out of is the 'cup round'.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2581/GuvpSr.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5662/EdKYrA.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on October 03, 2019, 01:09:01 AM
Another Saga force? You are a modeling machine! Looking forward to more inspirational pictures of this force.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 03, 2019, 06:39:21 AM


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5662/EdKYrA.png)

Wow! They are quite large clay shapers.... have you tired using the black tipped ones? They are a smaller size and the softer tip so I personally find them easier to control the putty with.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dickblick.com%2Fproducts%2Froyal-sovereign-clay-shaper-sets%2F&psig=AOvVaw0eSWxlXAg5e4PgIxQ0358v&ust=1570171118410000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLCykbG9_-QCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dickblick.com%2Fproducts%2Froyal-sovereign-clay-shaper-sets%2F&psig=AOvVaw0eSWxlXAg5e4PgIxQ0358v&ust=1570171118410000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCLCykbG9_-QCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE)

Not that there's anything at all wrong with the work you've done!!  8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: tancrede on October 03, 2019, 07:03:03 AM
Yes, the "Saga master" as started another great project.
As always, I'll keep an eye on this project, sir.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 03, 2019, 02:49:20 PM
Wow! They are quite large clay shapers.... have you tired using the black tipped ones? They are a smaller size and the softer tip so I personally find them easier to control the putty with.

The photo of the clay shapers is a magnified photo of the tools taken from an online retailer's website, so the shapers aren't really that large.  I do, however, use the 'Size 0' shapers and they work just fine.  I also have a set of the black tipped shapers with the softer tips, but I prefer shapers pictured in the photo.  Perhaps I'll give the black tipped shapers another try.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 03, 2019, 04:52:48 PM
The photo of the clay shapers is a magnified photo of the tools taken from an online retailer's website, so the shapers aren't really that large.  I do, however, use the 'Size 0' shapers and they work just fine.  I also have a set of the black tipped shapers with the softer tips, but I prefer shapers pictured in the photo.  Perhaps I'll give the black tipped shapers another try.

Yeah, it was just a suggestion. Whatever works best for you really :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 04, 2019, 05:18:51 PM
My Footsore truncated teardrop shields have arrived.  Overall, the casts I quite good. 

On the back of each shield is a little nub that I assume is intended to rest against the top of the model's shield hand.  I've tested the fit with the nub in place and I don't like it, so I've clipped off the nubs and used a pin vice to drill a shallow recess into the back of each shield.  The recesses create a ball and socket joint with the shield hand, creating a snugger fit and making it easier to rotate the angle of the shield.

Inspired by illustration in Osprey Publishing's The Moors -The Islamic West 7th-15th Centuries AD, I've decided to replace my cavalry models' current shields with small round shields.   As such, my Footsore order also included an Arab Round Mixed Shield pack for my cavalry.  My favorite shield from this pack is the shield with the four round studs on its surface, but sadly pack included only two of these shields. 

The studded shields are a simple design and have a simple, flat back, so I used Instant Mold and greenstuff to make 6 more.  Below is a photo of the molds and GS shields.  Before snapping this photo I only had time to trim one of the GS shields.  I'll trim the remaining five when I get home from work tonight.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8245/uSFiYV.png)

If you're not familiar with Instant Mold, it's a great product for doing simple greenstuff casting.  I used in the past to make skull icons for Space Marine should pads and to cast giant demon toads (pictured below) for a Frostgrave project.  To use the product you place it hot water until it becomes pliable.  Once the product softens, you remove it from the water and press your master into the product and then let it cool.  After a few minutes you remove your master from the mold and you are ready to start casting.  The product can be used over and over again by reheating, so if your mold doesn't turn out quite right or if you have to destroy the mold to remove the casted model (as pictured below), then you can start over by putting the mold into hot water.

Removing the cast from the mold before the greenstuff hardens will deform your cast, so let your greenstuff cure overnight before removing it from the mold.

I've found that I get the best results if I create small vents in my molds using the point of an xacto blade.  This allows trapped air to escape when you are pressing greenstuff into the mold.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2346/NMGhAY.jpg) 

A few years ago, when I cast my demon toads I used Apoxie Sculpt instead of GS.  This was a mistake.  The cast didn't turn out as sharp as I would like and included some defects, so I ended up using GS to patch the casting defects.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6476/xnCEzN.jpg) (https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6145/G1dHny.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: TheDaR on October 05, 2019, 06:35:51 AM
The photo of the clay shapers is a magnified photo of the tools taken from an online retailer's website, so the shapers aren't really that large.  I do, however, use the 'Size 0' shapers and they work just fine.  I also have a set of the black tipped shapers with the softer tips, but I prefer shapers pictured in the photo.  Perhaps I'll give the black tipped shapers another try.

I love my clay shapers, and only rarely use classic metal dental tools anymore.  I have and use multiple sets of shapers:  black (extra firm) in both 0 and 2, plus grey and white (firm and soft) in 2.   I tend to start out with the size 2 to do gross shaping, switch to the 0s to refine details, and then go back with the white size 2 to smooth out the surfaces.  Finally, as the putty starts to really cure, back to the black, mostly size 0, to do the last bits of polishing and blending.  I probably use my greys least, except for the #2 flat chisel, which I tend to use to shape rounded surfaces like muscles, especially early on in the process.  Black #0s tend to get the most use overall, especially round cup, flat chisel, and taper.  #2 Cup Round is the most used white.  I use the angel chisel in all 4 sets rarely, mostly for edging of things like armor or other mechanical bits, and I have yet to figure out where the cup chisel would be useful (maybe if I worked in actual clay instead of epoxy putties?).
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 08, 2019, 08:54:31 AM
I have and use multiple sets of shapers:  black (extra firm) in both 0 and 2, plus grey and white (firm and soft) in 2.   I tend to start out with the size 2 to do gross shaping, switch to the 0s to refine details, and then go back with the white size 2 to smooth out the surfaces.  Finally, as the putty starts to really cure, back to the black, mostly size 0, to do the last bits of polishing and blending.  I probably use my greys least, except for the #2 flat chisel, which I tend to use to shape rounded surfaces like muscles, especially early on in the process.  Black #0s tend to get the most use overall, especially round cup, flat chisel, and taper.  #2 Cup Round is the most used white.  I use the angel chisel in all 4 sets rarely, mostly for edging of things like armor or other mechanical bits, and I have yet to figure out where the cup chisel would be useful (maybe if I worked in actual clay instead of epoxy putties?).

Is there one place where you can order the above sizes and plasticity of the above shapers? I've found loads on the net but they are available from different dealers who often don't mention the plasticity (hardness/softness) or sometimes even the size?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 09, 2019, 05:14:40 AM
My GS cast shields turned out pretty good.

Also, I've finally selected a model to use as my Moors' Warlord, Fireforge Games' Saladin.  Of course, me being me, I can't leave well enough alone, so I did a head swap and added a shield.  The former was done to make the model look a bit less glitzy and the latter was added to cover up the model's upper left arm, which is positioned in an unnatural looking way. 

The horse is a huge, barrel chested beast that dwarfs the Gripping Beast plastic Arab cavalry horses that I'm using for hearthguards' steeds.  I decreased its height slightly by cutting off the bottom half of each of its hooves.

As I did for the Warlord of my Britons warband, I'll likely create a 3" DIA magnetized display base that I can insert my Moorish Warlord into.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3936/9PoQ5s.jpg)


Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 09, 2019, 06:20:04 AM
Great headswap!!  8) 8) 8)

Do you know how big is the Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub model compared to that of say Perry Miniatures  (or say metal Gripping Beast)? I was thinking of buying  one myself but was put off by the apparent inconsistent size of the Fireforge models.

I assume height was the reason why you filed down the hooves?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 09, 2019, 01:32:37 PM
Great headswap!!  8) 8) 8)

Do you know how big is the Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub model compared to that of say Perry Miniatures  (or say metal Gripping Beast)? I was thinking of buying  one myself but was put off by the apparent inconsistent size of the Fireforge models.

I assume height was the reason why you filed down the hooves?
Iíve ordered Perry Miniaturesí Bedouin cavalry. When they arrive, Iíll post some size comparison photos.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 09, 2019, 02:06:36 PM
Iíve ordered Perry Miniaturesí Bedouin cavalry. When they arrive, Iíll post some size comparison photos.

Please do. I'd be very interested in how they compare.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: TheDaR on October 10, 2019, 08:08:30 AM
Is there one place where you can order the above sizes and plasticity of the above shapers? I've found loads on the net but they are available from different dealers who often don't mention the plasticity (hardness/softness) or sometimes even the size?

I originally bought my in a local Art store (Daniel's Art Supply), but they're available from larger online art and craft stores.  The brand I bought were Royal Sovereign. States-side https://www.dickblick.com/products/colour-shapers-tools/ (https://www.dickblick.com/products/colour-shapers-tools/) and https://www.jerrysartarama.com/colour-shaper-sets (https://www.jerrysartarama.com/colour-shaper-sets) carry them.   The actual "Clay Shapers" are black and extra firm.  The firm grey and soft white ones are sometimes sold as "Colour Shapers" and may be advertised for use with Oils and Watercolors.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 10, 2019, 08:45:35 AM
Thanks!! That's brilliant  8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 11, 2019, 03:50:50 PM
I did some work on my Moorish Warlord's display base.  The Warlord's base rests in a recess and is secured in place by magnets.  The plan is to attach the standard bearer and musician to the base via magnets.  This will make it easier to transport the models in a carrying case.

The standard bearer is from Brother Vinni's Arabia model line.  The musician is made from Gripping Beast plastic components.  The body and head are from the Arab Spearmen kit and the right arm and horn are from the Arab Heavy Cavalry kit. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4265/tNHTPG.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2725/PMMdeX.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on October 11, 2019, 04:35:14 PM
Looks great! The veiled head is perfect on the warlord.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 12, 2019, 07:25:06 AM
Great stuff. Keep it going.

I always enjoy watching the progression of conversion work and sculpting.

BTW, where do you get your putty from?

Green stuff can go off so I was wondering where the best place is to get the freshest GS?

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 14, 2019, 06:09:47 PM

BTW, where do you get your putty from?

Green stuff can go off so I was wondering where the best place is to get the freshest GS?
I buy my GS from my local hobby store and my Apoxie Sculpt from Amazon. 

The Apoxie Sculpt comes in small plastic tubs with screw on caps, so it lasts a long while.  Apoxie Sculpt is less expensive than GS and its not a good material for sculpting small detailed items.  I use it primary for filling gaps, model bases, and terrain features.

To keep my GS "fresh" I keep it in a sealed ziplock bag which is stored inside small plastic box with a hinged, snap on lid.



Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 14, 2019, 07:39:11 PM
I buy my GS from my local hobby store and my Apoxie Sculpt from Amazon. 

The Apoxie Sculpt comes in small plastic tubs with screw on caps, so it lasts a long while.

It can be stored in the freezer to keep it from going off. Trouble is; if you were to ask a number of sculptors how long Greenstuff took to go off they would all come up with a different answer.

Apoxie Sculpt is less expensive than GS and its not a good material for sculpting small detailed items.  I use it primary for filling gaps, model bases, and terrain features.
Quote

I've used that stuff and I just couldn't take to it. Maybe I got a bad batch? I really don't know. What I do know is that I ended up using it to fill the gaps in bark chippings I when I was making rocky terrain!

To keep my GS "fresh" I keep it in a sealed ziplock bag which is stored inside small plastic box with a hinged, snap on lid.

Yeah, me too. I've just got back into the hobby again after a break of four or five years so I reckon the putty I have will all have gone off to some extent. There's quite a lot of it too :(

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Daeothar on October 15, 2019, 08:26:08 AM
Only last year I opened up a GW blister of GS I received as a birthday gift over 10 years ago, and even though it was a bit hard in the beginning, and more of the divide line between the yellow and blue components needs cutting off, it became more kneadable once I started handling it, and it's still perfectly usable!

Opened GS and ProCreate I store in ziplock bags with as little air in them as possible, inside of an old Tupperware container, in a desk drawer, and I still have to experience a batch that has truly gone off. And as the above example illustrates; I'm not a prolific wet sculptor, so putty tends to be stored for a very long time...
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 15, 2019, 08:35:58 AM
Only last year I opened up a GW blister of GS I received as a birthday gift over 10 years ago, and even though it was a bit hard in the beginning, and more of the divide line between the yellow and blue components needs cutting off, it became more kneadable once I started handling it, and it's still perfectly usable!

Agreed, I always cut the middle out where the two epoxies join as it always starts to harden where they meet.

Opened GS and ProCreate I store in ziplock bags with as little air in them as possible, inside of an old Tupperware container, in a desk drawer, and I still have to experience a batch that has truly gone off. And as the above example illustrates; I'm not a prolific wet sculptor, so putty tends to be stored for a very long time...

I actually prefer ProCreate to Greenstuff. It much more pliable and i find it less sticky even when mixed 30/70.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 16, 2019, 03:13:22 AM
Please do. I'd be very interested in how they compare.
Here's the size comparison photo that I promised you.  Compared to the other horses, Saladin's horse is massive.  He must have stolen if from a crusader who was too big to ride a destrier and instead opted for a draft horse.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7596/m0ZXiF.jpg)

I have to admit that I am a bit disappointed with the Perry Miniatures horses.  The quality of the casts isn't terrific, I don't care for two of four poses, and their manes are too short.  I have a bunch of extra Footsore horses, so I may mount my Bedouin cav on those and add the Perry horses to my collection of models that I regret purchasing.

The quality of the riders is poor as well.  These models are going to require hours of clean-up with a hobby knife and GS patching to get them ready for paint.  Ugh.

(https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/52929/1534797217.2203-smiley.gif)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 16, 2019, 06:47:08 AM
Thanks mate.

The Fireforge Games resin horses do look a little large.

Oh, BTW, the Footsore and metal Gripping Beast horses were made from the Ebob dollies that were once available for license (from Ebob).  I remember seeing so many companies taking up the use of the dollies and thinking "Oh no! Everything is going to become much more generic!" but now I've come around to the idea that is is a good thing because it makes mixing and matching cavalry models so much easier. They are similar to the Perry horses too which is a great help!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 20, 2019, 05:36:31 PM
I did some work on my HG cav and Bedouin Warrior cav.  

The HG cav started out over a year ago as kitbashed Age of Crusades Lithuanian cav.  Itís a mix of the GB Heavy Arab Cav kit and the Fireforge Medieval Russian infantry kit.  To repurpose them I replaced their Russian heads and teardrop shields with Arab heads and shields. Now that they are (hopefully) in their final form, I used GS to fill gaps and add belts, buckles, and veils. I am going to paint the shields separate, so Iím leaving them off for now.

I spent three hours on the Perry Miniatures Bedouins with a hobby knife and GS cleaning up their dreadful casts.  I will definitely think twice before purchasing any more Perry Miniaturesí metals. Yuck.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1364/jeRKHS.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 20, 2019, 05:47:03 PM
Can I ask, who makes the Age of Crusades Lithuanian cavalry?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 20, 2019, 11:55:14 PM
Can I ask, who makes the Age of Crusades Lithuanian cavalry?
As stated above, my HG cav are kitbashed using Gripping Beast's Arab Heavy Cavalry kit and Fireforge's Medieval Russian Infantry kit.  The models were originally assembled to use in my ill-fated Lithuania project, which was an offshoot of my Pagan Rus project.  Both of which have been shelved for the time being.  I don't care for how the Eastern Princes battle board plays, so I'm unlikely to resurrect my Lithuanian project, but I have had a lot of fun playing the current Pagan Rus battle board, so it's definitely still on my 'To Do' list.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6940/4ZG8tY.png)

You can view my Pagan Rus/Lithuanian thread HERE (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=109630.30) (scroll down to bottom of page)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 21, 2019, 07:52:56 AM
As stated above, my HG cav are kitbashed using Gripping Beast's Arab Heavy Cavalry kit and Fireforge's Medieval Russian Infantry kit.  The models were originally assembled to use in my ill-fated Lithuania project, which was an offshoot of my Pagan Rus project.  Both of which have been shelved for the time being.  I don't care for how the Eastern Princes battle board plays, so I'm unlikely to resurrect my Lithuanian project, but I have had a lot of fun playing the current Pagan Rus battle board, so it's definitely still on my 'To Do' list.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6940/4ZG8tY.png)

You can view my Pagan Rus/Lithuanian thread HERE (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=109630.30)

Gotcha! I was drawn towards the Age of Crusades in italics which had me frantically searching for a mini new company on the net  lol

I'll take a peek at the link you provided now.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Breazer on October 23, 2019, 07:53:08 AM
with all the work you put into this i'm quite sure this will look great once painted up.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Sangennaru on October 23, 2019, 08:01:03 AM
Very promising work! Sixteen horses in formation always look impressive!

Yes, i had friends that had some issues with the Perry's metal Samurais too. Mine were not too terrible, but i agree that the overall cleaning job is not negligible. :(
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2019, 01:15:33 PM
Very promising work! Sixteen horses in formation always look impressive!

Yes, i had friends that had some issues with the Perry's metal Samurais too. Mine were not too terrible, but i agree that the overall cleaning job is not negligible. :(

It can be a bit hit and miss. Sometimes even old Perry ranges are pristine, sometime not so. i guess they are continually remodelling the molds on a rotary basis given the amount of miniatures they sell.

Talking of which, as an abstract question- I wonder how many actual models over all their ranges they have sold over the years? I'd put money on the total being mind bending!!  o_o :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Sangennaru on October 23, 2019, 01:31:37 PM
It can be a bit hit and miss. Sometimes even old Perry ranges are pristine, sometime not so. i guess they are continually remodelling the molds on a rotary basis given the amount of miniatures they sell.

Talking of which, as an abstract question- I wonder how many actual models over all their ranges they have sold over the years? I'd put money on the total being mind bending!!  o_o :)

They do make quite a decent living out of their stuff. And the margin per model is probably not so much. thirty years, two people paying their bills in full... something around five to ten million figures?
Sorry, back to the OT! :D
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on October 23, 2019, 04:39:43 PM
They do make quite a decent living out of their stuff. And the margin per model is probably not so much. thirty years, two people paying their bills in full... something around five to ten million figures?
Sorry, back to the OT! :D

Yeah, sorry about that, it wouldn't be the first time I've got sidetracked  :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on October 28, 2019, 09:12:05 PM
As I continue to playtest my Moors/Umayyad, I keep going back and forth on the composition of my warband. 

One of the units that I've been vacillating on is my levy.  Crossbow levy hit harder than bow levy, but it's less costly in SAGA dice for bow levy to shoot multiple times per turn.  Additionally, Umayyad levy cannot be armed with crossbows, so if I use bow levy for my Moors and Umayyad warbands, I will paint 12 fewer models.  And finally, I've found only two manufacturers who sell  28mm Moorish/Arab crossbowmen models, Gripping Beast and Artizan Designs, and I don't care for either.

Both GB an Artizan sell only 4 poses, so a levy unit will be comprised of four groups of triplicate poses.  The Gripping Beast sculpts are uninspiring and the quality of the casts is crap.  Instead of sending the GB models back, I tossed them in my box of purchases that I regret, and ordered the Artizan models.  The quality of the Artizan models is better, but the sculpts are kind of thick and clunky, and after additional consideration, I decided that they don't really fit my Tuareg/Bedouin theme.

After a bit of brainstorming, I realized that I still have quite a few unused Gripping Beast Arab bodies and heads, so if I could find some crossbow bits, I could kitbash my own crossbowmen.  The online bits-sellers don't have what I need, so I broke down and ordered Fireforge Games Foot Sergeant kit.

The Foot Sergeant kit is a great deal.  Its 6 sprues have enough bits to build 48 models (which breaks down to 83 cents per model) with plenty of bits to spare.  Each sprue includes enough bits to arm 4 models with crossbow, 6 models with basic hand weapons, and 6 models with spears.  So even after procuring 12 crossbows to arm my Moorish levy, I have enough models and weapons to make a good start on a Crusader warband.

Originally, I had planned to fill in the recesses of the crossbow bits' quilted armor sleeves with GS to match the smooth texture of Arab plastics' robes, but after looking at the assembled models, I decided that I like the contrast between the quilted sleeves and the smooth robes. 

Below is a WIP shot.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8762/qCccKs.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Codsticker on October 29, 2019, 06:26:02 AM
It looks like you managed some very natural poses with the two kits- nicely done!
I have some of the Artisan Designs models and although they are  chunky I ike them. I find them very easy to paint,  much like Perry sculpts.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on January 13, 2020, 05:34:28 PM
The decision not to attend the Adepticon tournaments this year really took the wind out of my sails with regards to painting my Moors.  Nevertheless, in between other projects I managed to finish my first unit.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2595/7OmjjP.jpg)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: has.been on January 13, 2020, 06:16:35 PM
Liking what you are doing. Great work on that unit.
Love the dusty hems.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on January 13, 2020, 06:41:01 PM
Very nice brushwork  8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Sangennaru on January 13, 2020, 10:02:30 PM
A very simple and identifiable colour scheme, with elegant touches. Love the bases too!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: FreakyFenton on January 13, 2020, 10:49:37 PM
The decision not to attend the Adepticon tournaments this year really took the wind out of my sails with regards to painting my Moors.  Nevertheless, in between other projects I managed to finish my first unit.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2595/7OmjjP.jpg)

I like the weathering on them!  :o

Also, who produces these miniatures, if you don't mind me asking?  8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on January 13, 2020, 11:41:33 PM
Thank you, everyone.

@FreakyFenton: The models from Footsore Miniatures' Armies of the Caliphate model line. I believe that many of the models in this line were part of Musketeer Miniatures' collection, so they are some of Footsore's older sculpts.  Eleven of the archers are Moorish Black Guard Archers and their leader, the guy wearing the mail shirt, is from the Moorish Black Guard Infantry Command set.  I added a bow to the leader's left hand.

The models have been labeled on Footsore's website as 'Currently Unavailable' for a year or so now.  I messaged Footsore via Facebook to ask if they had plans to sell them again.  I was told that they are in the process of remaking the molds for these models, but if I wanted to buy now, to send them an email, so I did. 

I assume that they used the old molds for my order.  There was a lot of extra flash between their feet and a slight misalignment on a model or two, but otherwise the models arrived in very good shape.

I love Footsore Miniatures. On occasion, I've had problems with miscasts, but they've always provided me with AMAZING customer service.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on January 14, 2020, 07:21:08 AM
Thank you, everyone.

@FreakyFenton: The models from Footsore Miniatures' Armies of the Caliphate model line. I believe that many of the models in this line were part of Musketeer Miniatures' collection, so they are some of Footsore's older sculpts.

Yeah, all Bill Thornhill sculpts from the old Musketeer line (with the possible exception of the Moorish Tribal Warriors which look like they may have had a different sculptor?)

The models have been labeled on Footsore's website as 'Currently Unavailable' for a year or so now.  I messaged Footsore via Facebook to ask if they had plans to sell them again.  I was told that they are in the process of remaking the molds for these models, but if I wanted to buy now, to send them an email, so I did.

That's odd, when I enquired about the range they told me very recently that the range was OOP  ??? . They did offer to cast some up for me with the warning that some of the moulds were cracked and that I would have to do a lot of work on them. I might yet take them up on this offer, the only thing that was putting me off, apart from the extra work, was that they were charging full price and that was at the time where they had the 3 for 2 Dark Ages sale on.

I hope that they get the range remoulded very soon.

One thing is for certain, Bill's Caliphate range is the best out there for 'Arab's/Moors etc.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: FreakyFenton on January 15, 2020, 04:00:24 PM
Thank you, everyone.

@FreakyFenton: The models from Footsore Miniatures' Armies of the Caliphate model line. I believe that many of the models in this line were part of Musketeer Miniatures' collection, so they are some of Footsore's older sculpts.  Eleven of the archers are Moorish Black Guard Archers and their leader, the guy wearing the mail shirt, is from the Moorish Black Guard Infantry Command set.  I added a bow to the leader's left hand.

The models have been labeled on Footsore's website as 'Currently Unavailable' for a year or so now.  I messaged Footsore via Facebook to ask if they had plans to sell them again.  I was told that they are in the process of remaking the molds for these models, but if I wanted to buy now, to send them an email, so I did. 

I assume that they used the old molds for my order.  There was a lot of extra flash between their feet and a slight misalignment on a model or two, but otherwise the models arrived in very good shape.

I love Footsore Miniatures. On occasion, I've had problems with miscasts, but they've always provided me with AMAZING customer service.

Thank you for the helpful advice, Koyote!  8) Not too bad about the molds, so I reckon I will buy some once I finished my current projects.  :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on March 16, 2020, 02:01:56 AM
Great brushwork! I love your color choices. The kitbashing of those crossbowmen is brilliant, I would not have thought of doing that.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 29, 2020, 05:52:47 AM
I finally got around to painting another unit of Umayyads/Moors.

Whether I'm playing them as Umayyads or Moors, the warband will include at least two units of 8 Warriors on foot.  Since both units will be armed with spears and painted using the same palette of colors, I will use their kaffiyehs to distinguish them from one another.  The models in the unit pictured below have their kaffiyehs covering most of their faces. The second unit will have their faces exposed. In SAGA, units can't intermix with one another, but on occasion they can get bunched up, so its useful to be able to easily identify which models belong to which unit.

This warband represents a contingent of Tuareg Berbers.  Unlike their Andalusian cousins who dress in a rainbow of bright colors and patterns like peacocks, my Tuareg are practical, hard-bitten nomad warriors who prefer simple garb made from solid colors.  In keeping with this theme, I chose LBM shield transfers with simple patterns (mostly solid backgrounds) in browns and blacks. The darkest shields had a purple hue, so I darkened them with a black wash.  The unit leader's shield was off-white, so I darkened it with a watered down wash of Agrax Earthshade.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7082/vYkCvH.jpg)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on March 29, 2020, 07:42:33 AM
 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: nikkobourges on March 29, 2020, 09:02:19 AM
Hello,

Superb paintjob !!! :-* :-*

Nikkobourges
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on March 29, 2020, 09:34:01 AM
NIce painting on those miniatures.  I love the muted pallette and your theme for the whole force, so they blend in as an army.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 30, 2020, 05:54:11 AM
I decided that the original flag toppers were a bit too large and generic, so I replaced them with simple crescent moon flag toppers that I carved out of a greenstuff dowel. 

As I mentioned before, if I mix too much GS I roll the leftover GS into dowels of various thicknesses for use later.  I made the crescent shape by drilling a hole into one of these dowels, lengthwise, using a pin vise.  Then I cut thin slices from the dowel, like you'd cut a salami. Next, I used a xacto blade to widen the hole in the center of GS salami slice and finish shaping the crescent.  I used a 'salami slice' of a thinner dowel to make the base that the crescent sits on.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1832/jOmZaA.jpg)

My Umayyad and Moors will each include 2 points of Warriors on foot and 2 points of Hearthguard mounted.  Each will also include 1 point of Levy, but my Umayyad Levy will be armed with bows and my Moorish Levy will be armed with crossbows.  This leaves me with 1 point to play with.  Right now the plan is for the Umayyad to use this point on a 1 point of Warriors mounted (Perry Miniatures Bedouins), and my Moors will use the point to purchase a unit of Tribal Hunters mercenaries (Footsore Miniatures' Arab Archers). 

To lead my Tribal Hunters I converted a Brother Vinni's Arabia standard bearer.  I repositioned the model's right arm and replaced his banner pole with bow.  I used GS to repair the parts damaged by cutting away the banner pole.   The model is a bit much for a tribal hunter, but I REALLY like this model, so I'm going to say that he's the hunters' chieftain/sheik -hence the fancy clothes and equipment.

The different versions of the warbands will also have different Warlords.  The mounted model pictured below is Gripping Beast's Moor Warlord Mounted. The model is pretty good as is, but there are some small things about it that bug me.  For starters, the position of its shoulders and head look unnatural and it has no neck.  I used a pair of snips, a hobby knife, and some GS to fix both of these problems.  Also, I don't care for the model's mace/scepter, so I replaced it with the hand and sword from Fireforge's Richard the Lionheart model.  Richard's hand is covered in a chainmail gauntlet, so I used a bit GS to add some chainmail to the model's shield hand.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1459/E29GWA.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ajax on March 30, 2020, 08:30:42 AM
Splendid, as usual.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on March 31, 2020, 02:01:42 PM
Great suggestions - you make me want to finally take the plunge and try using Greenstuff! I have figs for a Saga Moops (Seinfeld reference) army sitting patiently waiting their turn. Soon. I was planning to do more of the post-conquest of Andalusia period, though. Loving your account of your project!

Mike Demana
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on April 01, 2020, 02:11:18 AM
More fantastic work.  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 05, 2020, 03:27:28 PM
I've (almost) finished the first four models of Warrior unit #2.  When my LBM transfers arrive,  I will add the flag to the standard bearer.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4345/4JbaMS.jpg)

I'm quite pleased with the greenstuff neck scarves.  I feel that they add a lot to these models.  Below is earlier WIP shot of the unit and below the WIP pic is an image I found online, sans GS scarves.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4526/RU88N7.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2383/lujeh3.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on April 06, 2020, 11:29:30 AM
I agree on the greenstuff... more tagelmus and less turban look.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on April 06, 2020, 12:24:00 PM
Paintjobs look great, and the greenstuff definitly helps. The original figures are a bit derpy looking.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: bluewillow on April 06, 2020, 12:42:51 PM
Lovely work on those, loving the green stuff conversions

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 11, 2020, 01:09:30 AM
Except for the flag (I suspect it will be several weeks before my LBM order arrives), my second unit of Warriors is done.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5184/jIiNIl.jpg)

I removed the greenstuff aventail that I sculpted on my Moorish Warlord and replaced it with a greenstuff scarf, similar to the ones I added to my second unit of Warriors and my mounted Hearthguard.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8001/JrnTC1.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on April 11, 2020, 02:39:05 PM
Scarf looks good, I think that was the right call.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 11, 2020, 06:13:35 PM
My Moorish Warlord and Tribal Hunters mercenaries are ready for paint.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2641/8s0jlu.jpg)


Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Breazer on April 12, 2020, 06:42:55 AM
Very nice Koyote. I always like how you make miniatures from so many different manufacturers look great and cohesive. It's especially nice when you see how you turn some of the less great ranges into something better.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Tonhel on April 12, 2020, 08:14:18 AM
Well done! They look really good!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Axebreaker on April 13, 2020, 01:44:36 PM
These look just wonderful and the dusting on the clothes worked a charm! 8)

Christopher
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 16, 2020, 07:03:14 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: nikkobourges on April 16, 2020, 07:19:22 PM
Hello,

Superb warlord !!! :-* :-*

Nikkobourges
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 16, 2020, 07:30:41 PM
Below are some shots of my Moorish Warlord.  In keeping with my humble Tuareg nomad theme, I kept his garb fairly simple, but because he's his tribe's chieftain, I added a few extra decorative elements

I don't know if it's my computer screen, my camera's settings, or the lighting I used to take these photos, but the blues appear a bit more indigo than they do in person.  I used Army Painter's Deep Blue and mixtures of Deep Blue and Griffon Blue. Weird.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/1148/uGzTd7.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2752/vAAznb.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img924/3496/YQCqbX.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: has.been on April 16, 2020, 08:20:05 PM
Looks beautiful, whatever shade it is.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 16, 2020, 09:15:24 PM
Looks beautiful, whatever shade it is.

+1  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on April 17, 2020, 12:08:30 AM
+2.  Very nice.    What are you using for the tan/drab ?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Calimero on April 17, 2020, 12:42:36 AM

Really nice conversion and painting. I like the blue and tan colors mix 8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: kuba on April 18, 2020, 03:26:56 PM
Everything in this project is incredible, the idea, conversions, colour choices, painting. Because I mostly use my phone to browse lead adventure forum I don't leave as much comments in threads as they authors deserve, let me use this space to express my admiration also for Your pagan Rus warband, eastern princes conversions, jungle goblins and dark ages inspired fantasy!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 21, 2020, 09:19:19 PM
These are the first four models from my 8-man unit of Tribal Hunters mercenaries.  The models are Arab Archers from Footsore Miniatures' Armies of the Caliphates model line.

Age of Crusades describes them as hunters from remote regions who "provide precious help to armies thanks to their skill at moving unnoticed through the untamed countryside and the lethal precision with which they use their weapons."  Their rules include some nifty benefits, like using an enemies fatigue to gain a bonus to their shooting attack dice and the ability to 'stand and shoot' at charging units.

I've decided that they are not Tuaregs, but rather local Arab scouts and trackers from the Iberian peninsula, so I painted their garb and skin tone different.  As non-Tuaregs the challenge was to distinguish them from the rest of the army, but to include some similarities so they don't look entirely out of place.  To this end I used blues on some of the models and gave every model a headscarf painted in the same tan (Baneblade Brown) that I used on my Tuaregs.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3732/MiJYts.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Sangennaru on April 21, 2020, 10:14:38 PM
I just finished conquering half of the Aserai faction in Bannerlords - that's SO inspiring!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mweaver on April 22, 2020, 12:57:29 AM
I really have enjoyed reading through this thread this evening.  The army is coming together very nicely, and I am impressed with your kit-bashing skills.

-Michael
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on April 22, 2020, 01:29:58 AM
Your Arab archers will fit in very nicely with your previous forces.  I like the way you have muted the blue and red tunics of the archers. Gives them a real used feel.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 22, 2020, 04:58:51 PM
What are you using for the tan/drab ?
Oops.  Sorry.  I didn't notice this question until just now.

I apply a base coat of Games Workshop's Baneblade Brown over white primer. I shade it with GW's Agrax Earthshade wash.  My first highlight is thinned down coat of Baneblade Brown.  Successive layers of highlights are applied using mixtures of Baneblade Brown and GW's Karak Stone.  My final layer of highlight is Karak Stone.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 23, 2020, 06:37:49 AM
Many months back I bought this model on a whim.  It's the Mutatwawwi'a Warlord from Stronghold Terrain's SAGA Collectibles model line. I didn't have a particular plan for it, but I was shopping for models for my Moors/Umayyad/AoM Desert Nomads project and I liked the model, so I bought it. 

Last week I watched the newest episode of SAGA Thorsday and learned that the rules for this month's painting contest is to submit one character model and extra points will be given to Old Feud Challenger models.  If you've followed the progress of my AoM forest goblin warband, you may remember that in March I converted a couple of extra character models into Challengers for use in the Book of Battles' Old Feud scenario.   I'm not putting any paint on my goblins yet, but It'd be nice to have a painted Challenger for my Moors warband, so I pulled the Mutatwawwi'a Warlord  out of my box of 'extra Moors' and got to work on it. I told myself that if it turned out good enough, I'd enter it in the SAGA Thorsday painting contest.

The sculpt looks pretty cool, but it's a little boring, so I added the severed head to the base (from a Victrix Viking sprue) and bloodied up the blade.  Now he looks like he means business.

I'm still on the fence as to whether or not this model is good enough for the contest.  The paint job is clean, but a bit too basic.  I have in mind a much flashier model that would would make a terrific Brute (Challenger), but it's not very "historical", so it may end up as a Challenger for the AoM version of this warband.  I'll put some paint on it, and submit the model that turns out the best.  Stay tuned.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7870/CRSN0Z.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: has.been on April 23, 2020, 06:56:51 AM
How about adding some pattern to his tunic? That would jazz him up a bit.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Sangennaru on April 23, 2020, 07:22:23 AM
How about adding some pattern to his tunic? That would jazz him up a bit.

That would work well!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 23, 2020, 07:31:50 AM
How about adding some pattern to his tunic? That would jazz him up a bit.

+1   

Still a good paint job.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 23, 2020, 05:02:23 PM
Thanks to all for the input on my Challenger model.  I always enjoy reading people's feedback.

It's a sad commentary on my hobby skills, but I have to confess that it took me four attempts to paint this stupid model. 

During my first two attempts I got a far as applying the base coats, which included decorative trim around the base of the tunic and sleeves, before dropping it into a jar of Simple Green to strip the paint. Initially, I didn't want to paint all of the cloth parts blue so I experimented with painting different parts tan, blue, and black, but I didn't care for my choice of colors.  Also, the model's tunic is short and flares out at the bottom so it kind of looks like a girl's skirt.  When I added the decorative trim, it looked even more so like a 1950s skirt. 

During my third attempt, I held the spray primer can too far away from the model, so particles partially dried before hitting the model.  The end result was a slightly fuzzy primer surface. Doh! Back into the Simple Green.

On the fourth attempt, I relented and painted the entire tunic and face scarf blue. I thought about adding a decorative pattern, like the 3-dot pattern on my Warlord's horse blanket, but the many folds in the skirt are deep so applying the pattern evenly wouldn't be easy and require some trial and error.  And frankly, at this point I've had enough of this stupid model and my own poor painting skills, so I am going to leave it the way it is. ;)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5082/MoXED3.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: has.been on April 23, 2020, 05:15:10 PM
and my own poor painting skills,


You are joking, aren't you?
If you broke your painting arm, wore a blindfold & boxing gloves, then,
& only then could you describe your painting as 'poor'.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 23, 2020, 05:19:44 PM
I agree.  Your painting skills are up to a very high standard, so don't let one mini get you down.  :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 23, 2020, 05:37:10 PM
Thanks guys.  I was mostly kidding. ;)

I do good tabletop quality stuff, but compared to the real experts, I still have a lot to learn. 

I also recognize that painting for the tabletop is different than painting single show models for competition or for sale. When painting for the table you can't spend an inordinate amount of time on each model and expect to get your army painted in a reasonable amount of time.  As such, many of my techniques and choices (like using shield and banner decals) are driven by expedience.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Erik on April 23, 2020, 09:07:46 PM

I'm quite pleased with the greenstuff neck scarves.  I feel that they add a lot to these models. 


I totally second that. Hope it's okay if I copy that on my forthcoming Muslim DBA army


Cheers
Erik
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Roo on April 23, 2020, 09:11:33 PM
Very nice indeed
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on April 24, 2020, 12:06:01 AM
I do good tabletop quality stuff, but compared to the real experts, I still have a lot to learn. 

I don't think any one stops learning, however your table top quality is exceptional.  Sure we all ooh and ahh over the works of art people enter in competitions but if I could elevate my painting and output to near yours, I would be very happy.   lol
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 27, 2020, 08:35:50 PM
I finished the last four Tribal Hunters mercenaries. 

Rather than take a separate group shot of all eight models, I've reposted the orignal photo of four hunters below the photo of my newest additions.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5397/EMYkWY.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3732/MiJYts.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: nikkobourges on April 28, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Hello,

Always so beautiful !!!

Nikkobourges
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 30, 2020, 07:26:21 AM
Here is another Challenger model for the Old Feud scenario.  The model is an Abrakhan Merchant Guard from Games Workshop's Lord of the Rings model line. The only modification to the model was the removal of the raised snake pattern on the the sword's blade.

In the Old Feud scenario there are 6 archetypes to choose from: The Brute, The Counselor, The Traitor, The Soldier, The Princess, and The Mystic.  While my first model could serve as a Soldier or possibly a Brute, this second model is clearly best suited for the role of The Brute.  Also, the model's Arabian Nights eunuch guard attire make it better suited as a Challenger for my Age of Magic Desert Nomads than my Age of Crusades Moors.  Then again, in both my Viking Age Irish and Age of Invasion Britons warbands, I blurred the lines between historical and the fantasy, so I see no reason to treat my Moors any differently. :)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7302/g90L8s.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 30, 2020, 07:48:08 AM
Lovely painting and a great base as well.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Tonhel on April 30, 2020, 08:48:59 PM
He looks great! Nice job on the skin.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 01, 2020, 07:00:40 AM
Great stuff yet again mate! Really love the hunter leader and that merchant guard. The skin tone in particular is inspirational.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on May 01, 2020, 07:26:28 AM
Lovely work Koyote  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on May 01, 2020, 10:02:14 AM
Fab paintjob!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 01, 2020, 08:36:16 PM
Great stuff yet again mate! Really love the hunter leader and that merchant guard. The skin tone in particular is inspirational.
Thanks.  Here's a close up of the Tribal Hunter Leader.  When I use the warband in Age of Magic, I plan to use the model as my Desert Nomad's Ranger (lieutenant).

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3905/wHNj2j.jpg)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 03, 2020, 03:46:51 AM
A friend wrote to ask how I paint eyes. I wrote the following (long winded) reply.  Others might find this information useful, so Iíve decided to post it here as well.

Below is a guide for painting fairly-good tabletop quality eyes on miniatures.  To get the best results, you need to be fairly good at painting fine detail. Before we get to the step-by-step part,  I think it will be helpful to discuss painting fine detail.


LIGHTING AND VISION

If you can't clearly see what you are painting you are going to have hard time getting your paint exactly where you want it, so it's critical that your painting area is properly lit.  Painting directly under a good desk lamp or two should suffice.  Also, if your vision makes it difficult (or impossible) to see close objects well, you will need to use corrective lenses or a painting-aid device with a magnifying glass


STEADY YOUR HANDS

For me, the best way to steady my hands is to rest the side my hands on the edge of my painting table and for both hands to be in contact with the model.  My left hand holds the model by its base.  The ring finger and sometimes the pinkie finger of my right hand gently press against he model from the opposite direction.  With the model and my hands firmly held in place, the only thing moving are the fingers manipulating the brush -the  thumb, index, and middle finger of my right hand.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4125/QUqe5o.png)

FINE MOTOR SKILLS

Fine motor skills are the coordination between small muscles, like those of the hands and fingers, with the eye.  People aren't born with the degree of fine motor skills required to paint really fine detail, so if you find this task difficult, rest assured that with sufficient practice you can improve your fine motor skills.  Much in the same way that an athlete trains his or her body and mind to perform at a high level, time spent painting minis will train the muscles in your hands and develop the neural pathways in your brain that you need to improve your hands' dexterity.


THIN YOUR PAINT

Painting fine detail is much easier when you use paint that has been thinned with water.  How much water you need to add depends upon characteristic of the paint you are using.  The ingredients in some paints, like many yellows and some metallics, make the paint a bit thinner than most other paints.  A paints characteristics can vary from color to color, from manufacturer to manufacturer, and even pot to pot depending upon the age of he paint and its previous exposure to air.  My point is that each pot of paint can be different, so there is no one recipe for how much water  you need to add to properly thin paint for fine detail work.

As a rule of thumb, your paint should be thin enough that it easily flows off the brush with very light contact with the model, but it shouldn't be so thin that when you touch the model with the brush tip, the paint rushes off the bristles and pools onto the model.


BRUSH LOAD

By "brush load" I mean the amount of paint you put on your brush's bristles.  To paint fine detail you need to use a brush with a very fine point.  When loading your brush to paint fine detail you want to your brush's bristles to retain a very fine point.  If you load your brush with too much paint, you will have a hard time controlling the proper application of the paint to exactly those areas you want to the paint to go. 

I use the side of my finger or the surface of a plastic paint palette to remove the excess paint from my brush and to 'sharpen' its loaded tip. I don't use the paper towels that I use to clean my brush because I don't want to inadvertently pick up any stray paper fibers.


WHEN TO PAINT THE EYES

For me, painting eyes typically involves a certain amount of touch up work in and around the eyes, so I prefer to tackle the eyes after applying  a base coat and flesh wash to the skin, but before starting in on the skin's post-wash highlights.


"PERFECT" EXECUTION

If you are very skilled at fine detail work (or very lucky) you can complete the task in three steps.


Step 1.  Paint the eyeball black.  If the model doesn't have a defined eyeball, then using black paint, paint a short line or narrow oval where the eyeball should be.

Step 2. Leaving a thin black outline around the outside of the eyeball, paint the inside of the eyeball white.

Step 3. Using black paint, paint a tiny circle on the eye to represent the iris and pupil.  The top and bottom of the iris & pupil should touch the upper and lower borders of the black lining around the eyeball.  If the eyeball is very narrow, you needn't worry about painting a circle, a simple vertical line will suffice.


LESS THAN PERFECT EXECUTION

Even though I've been painting minis for decades, I still screw up painting eyes.  Sometimes I screw up so badly that I have to use the tip of a hobby knife to dig out all the paint I applied to the eyes and start over from scratch.  Since this is a sad reality that many of you will experience as well, here's how you paint eyes, the hard way.

Because your mistakes may cause you to applying multiple layers of paint to one very small area of the model (e.g. a corner of the eye or the area around the iris) it is very important that thin your paint properly and that you don't apply any one layer too thickly.


Step 1.  Paint the eyeball black.  If the model doesn't have a defined eyeball, then using black paint, paint a short line or narrow oval where the eyeball should be.  If you screw up this initial step, you can use the color that you used to paint your skin tone's base coat to touch up and properly shape the black eyeball.

Step 2. Leaving a thin black outline around the outside of the eyeball, paint the inside of the eyeball white.   Once again, if you screw up and paint white over the black outline, don't worry.  You can fix it later.

Step 3. Using black paint, paint a tiny circle on the eye to represent the iris and pupil.  The top and bottom of the iris & pupil should touch the upper and lower borders of the black lining around the eyeball.  If the eyeball is very narrow, you needn't worry about painting a circle, a simple vertical line will suffice.  If you screw up this step, you can use white paint to touch up and properly shape the iris.  If you screwed up Step 2, put the iris where you think it would be if you hadn't screwed up Step 2.

Step 4. If you screwed up Step 2, you can attempt to repair the broken black border by painting a very thin black outline around the white portion of the eye.  Painting such a thin outline might be difficult, so if you screw it up, don't panic, you can still fix it.

Step 5+.  I call this Step 5+ because it may take several tries to get everything just right.  Starting from the iris and work outward, fix all of your mistakes.  First, make sure the iris the the right shape and in the correct location. Then make sure that the white parts of the eye are properly shaped. Then make sure that the black border  is properly shaped and roughly the same thickness all around. 

If you used your skin tone's base color to touch up and reshape the outside of the eye, you can apply the tiniest amount of flesh wash to the areas of skin you touched up. If the flesh wash leaks into the whites of the eyes, quickly dab the eye with the edge of paper towel or the bristles of a damp brush to remove the wash before it dries.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/804/vjnXqH.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 03, 2020, 04:03:30 AM
Great tips for painting eyes. Thanks for taking so much time to help others. I struggle with eyes so will be happily taking your advice.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 03, 2020, 05:20:20 AM
The next unit I'm going to tackle is a unit of 8 Warriors mounted and armed with javelins.  When I play the warband as Umayyads (Age of Vikings), this unit will replace the Tribal Hunters (Age of Crusades mercenaries). 

The riders are Perry Miniatures' Bedouin Cavalry.  The casts are crap, so they required quite a bit of clean-up and GS.  Their horses were even worse, plus I didn't care for their poses, so replaced this unit's mounts with Footsore Miniatures horses.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/538/HiHWn3.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Tonhel on May 03, 2020, 08:06:17 AM
I am really enjoying this painting log! :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on May 03, 2020, 09:13:07 AM
Never been happy with any Perry metals either, really wish they'd find a decent caster. Either way, the cavalry are looking good post-fix.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on May 03, 2020, 10:25:22 AM
Never been happy with any Perry metals either, really wish they'd find a decent caster. Either way, the cavalry are looking good post-fix.

I don't think it's a caster issue. I think it's more to do with the issues involved in keeping up with getting moulds re made as their ranges are huge. The moulds must get a great deal of wear and tear (literally).

As an aside, when the Ebob horses were first put on license there were a lot of remarks made in the hobby community as to how close they appeared to resemble the Perry horses  :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 09, 2020, 06:01:42 PM
I finished painting the first two mounted Warriors.   Despite the quality of the Perry casts, I think they turned out pretty good.

I spent hours with a hobby knife and greenstuff, cleaning up the imperfections on the  8 riders.  Even so, once I put primer on the models, many more little bumps, cracks, and deformities were revealed to me, so fixing the flaws while I painted added extra time and unpleasantness to my painting of these models.

There's a scene in the movie 300 where the Spartan villain, Theron, forces Gorgo, King Leonidas' wife, to have sex with him.  As a prelude to act, Theron tells Gorgo: "This will not be over quickly. You will not enjoy this."  This quote kept popping into my head as I painted these riders.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4936/ctNaVI.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Flinty on May 09, 2020, 06:38:57 PM
I finished painting the first two mounted Warriors.   Despite the quality of the Perry casts, I think they turned out pretty good..... "This will not be over quickly. You will not enjoy this." 

Worth the effort I'd say, they look bloody lovely - but then thats the goes for everything in this thread.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 09, 2020, 06:51:04 PM
They look great!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on May 09, 2020, 07:22:53 PM
Great work Kayote  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Calimero on May 09, 2020, 08:28:20 PM
I finished painting the first two mounted Warriors.   Despite the quality of the Perry casts, I think they turned out pretty good.

I spent hours with a hobby knife and greenstuff, cleaning up the imperfections on the  8 riders.  Even so, once I put primer on the models, many more little bumps, cracks, and deformities were revealed to me, so fixing the flaws while I painted added extra time and unpleasantness to my painting of these models.

Is that a problem throughout the entire Perry ranges? I've painted some in the past and the casting was OK... not great but still, not that bad  :?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 09, 2020, 09:25:43 PM
Wonderful painting on those minis, especially the gray mare.    :-* :-* :-*  Worth all the extra work to get them to that standard.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 09, 2020, 09:56:15 PM
Is that a problem throughout the entire Perry ranges? I've painted some in the past and the casting was OK... not great but still, not that bad  :?
I can't speak to their other ranges.  These are the only Perry metals I own.

I do have the Perry Miniatures' Sudanese Tribesmen plastic kit.  This kit is quite good -the detail is reasonably sharp and the mold lines are minimal.  In the Age of Magic version of this warband, I use the Perry tribesmen as Levy armed with javelins (pictured below far left).  Below is a WIP taken before I put paint on my spearmen and replaced the metal Artizan Design archers with archers from Footsore Miniatures.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7889/LrQtik.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on May 10, 2020, 05:14:25 AM
As painful as this may have been since you were Gorgo, they do look really nice.

I have quite a few Perry Sudan blisters that are quite nice but some of the molds have horrible flash.  I assume that is relative to their age.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on May 10, 2020, 08:24:22 AM
I assume that is relative to their age.

Yeah, I think that this might be down to the moulds not being replaced as rapidly as they would ideally want due to the massive number of moulds needed to cast all the Perry ranges. There must be a huge number of moulds.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 16, 2020, 06:54:16 PM
Four down.  Four to go.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1744/O7V593.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on May 17, 2020, 08:39:01 AM
Lovely work Koyote  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: nikkobourges on May 21, 2020, 10:22:49 AM
Hello,

Superb paintjob !!! I like the shade's flesh horses !!!

Nikkobourges
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 22, 2020, 05:48:25 AM
Six down. Two to go.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9126/fsbvia.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on May 22, 2020, 09:00:07 AM
Lovely work  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 22, 2020, 05:20:57 PM
Hello,

Superb paintjob !!! I like the shade's flesh horses !!!

Nikkobourges
Thanks.

Painting horses is challenging because it involves painting relatively large, smooth areas, gradual curves, and shallow recesses.  Highlighting the crests of the gradual curves and shading the shallow recesses are the biggest challenges. 

The easiest approach is to apply a base coat and perhaps a wash to the 'horse-flesh' and leave it at that.  Depending upon what you want your final product to look like, this is a perfectly acceptable approach.  The use of Games Workshop's contrast paints or Army Painters' Quickshade and dipping technique are both good ways to execute this approach.

Another approach is to paint or shade the recesses in such a way as to produce a very stark, obvious shading between the muscles.  This approach can produce models that look quite good when viewed from 3+ feet away, which is how models are typically viewed on the table top, during game play.

Still another approach is to highlight and shade the curves and recesses in a much more subtle manner.  This is my approach.  These models don't look as good on the table top, but in my opinion, they look better in photographs and when closely inspected. 

I achieve the subtle shading and highlighting by following the basic recipe of figure painting: basecoat, shading, and then highlighting. My first highlight coat is my base coat color, mixed very thin so that the shaded color that I am painting over shows through a bit. My second and sometimes third highlight layer are the same base coat color, but each time I highlight I add the color to an increasingly smaller area, focused on the crest of the muscle.  It's only on the third or fourth layer of highlight that I begin to lighten the color of the highlight.  Once again, each highlight color should be mixed quite thin, so that each layer of highlight is slightly translucent.

As I highlight the horse, I will inevitably find areas where the transitioning of colors isn't smooth enough.  In these instance I will apply a very thin coat of wash to "repair" the areas that I F'd up, and if needed, re-apply highlights to these areas.  So in reality, my process isn't a simple linear Step 1 to Step 6.  It's more like Step 1 to Step 4, fix those areas I'm not satisfied with, go back to Step 3, continue on to Step 5, then possibly go back again.  The process is really just me painting and fixing and painting and fixing again until I'm either satisfied with the result or I've given up and decided that I'm tired of messing with it.

Below is an illustration I created in 2017 for my Britons' thread (see page 4 of that thread). I used it to illustrate the basics of highlighting and how I use thinned down washes/inks to "cheat blend". 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/a/img922/1223/ife9vy.png)

Of course the process for painting black horses is a bit different because the base coat is the shade coat.  Nevertheless, if the highlight transitions aren't smooth enough, I apply a very thin coat of black wash to the area, using a mixture of black paint and water or medium.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 28, 2020, 02:49:51 PM
It took me over 3 weeks of painting in my spare time, but the my first unit of Tuareg (Moorish) cavalry is finally done. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/439/F4vQiv.jpg)


With the addition of this last unit, my display case is full.  I had previously relocated a half shelf of Mordheim & Frostrgrave warbands to wall mounted display cases to make room for the first few units of Moors, but I see now that I will need to find a new display case for my This Is Not A Test warbands as well.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9286/SiOieg.png)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Tonhel on May 28, 2020, 03:00:52 PM
What a beautiful collection!  :-* :-* :-*

The cavalry is also great!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 28, 2020, 03:34:56 PM
Stunning work and epic display!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on May 28, 2020, 05:15:38 PM
Stunning work and epic display!

What he said.   You might need a full size display unit.  :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 29, 2020, 07:39:02 PM
Thanks, everyone.

The models on the bottom shelf are my SAGA Age of Vikings Irish and the units that I added to play them as a SAGA Age of Magic Horde warband.

The models on the middle shelf are my SAGA Age of Invasions Britons and the units that I added to play them as a SAGA Age of Magic Great Kingdoms warband.

The models on the top shelf are my soon-to-be-evicted TNT warbands and my growing Moors/Umayyad/Lords of Wild warband.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on May 31, 2020, 05:23:39 PM
My next project will be one point of mounted hearthguard.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8679/Jcvtgn.jpg)

The models are assembled from Gripping Beast's GBP05 Arab Heavy Cavalry kit and bits from other GB kits and manufacturers.  I replaced their plastic spears (which have a tendency to break) with wire spears.  Since these models represent my elite warriors they should be well equipped, so I added sheathed swords to their left hips and sheathed knives to their right hip. Each model will also be equipped with a small round shield held in their left hand.  Moorish mounted hearthguard are equipped with javelins, so equipped some of the models with an extra javelin. The mace comes from Fireforge Miniatures' Medieval Russian Infantry kit

I don't care for the look of the horses' knotted tails, so I either replaced the tails or carved off the knotted portion and repaired the tail with greenstuff.

One of the weaknesses of this kit is how the torso piece and legs piece join together.  Once assembled you can see a small gap and the model's skinny little belt is barely discernible. I fixed this by using greenstuff to fill in the gap and sculpting a thicker belt and buckle.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/217/Ks2uLY.png)

I also used greenstuff to patch gaps in joints, add scarves, bulk up some of their tiny little hands, and elongate the stubby little fingers on some of the hands holding weapons.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 31, 2020, 05:45:33 PM
Brilliant detail work as usual mate.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on June 21, 2020, 10:00:43 PM
I've made some progress on my mounted Hearthguard. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6479/wHqKXC.jpg)

My original plan was to equip them with the four-stud shields from Footsore's Arab Round Mixed Shield pack.   

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9844/15dds5.png)

At first I painted the entire shield face metal, but it looked blah.  Then I experimented with painting only the studs metal and the remainder of the shield face another solid color.  I tried a few colors but nothing looked quite right.  If I had painted patterns on the models' garments , then the solid colored shields might have worked, but since their garments are mostly solid colors, the shields need to be a bit more intricate.  I've ordered some LBM shield transfers designed to fit the Footsore small round shields.  My hope is that the transfers' Arab script and non-uniform designs will balance the solid colors and (mostly) uniform colors of the riders' garments.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on July 13, 2020, 02:41:30 PM
And here they are with their shields...

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1976/XTofzf.jpg)

Truth be told, after painting 50+ Umayaad/Moors, I'm a bit burned out on painting blue and tan, so I'm going to take a break before painting the crossbow levy and the last point of mounted hearthguard.  It's time to give my post-apoc and fantasy painting projects some attention.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on July 13, 2020, 06:40:21 PM
The figures look great.  The more detailed shields definitely add some interest but a more plain shield or two might not be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on July 14, 2020, 07:38:54 AM
Lovely work  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ajax on July 14, 2020, 11:00:50 AM
Always a pleasure to see your work. Fantastic paintjob !
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on July 17, 2020, 02:15:43 AM
They look amazing - quite the inspiration!

Mike Demana
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: von Lucky on February 14, 2021, 08:12:47 AM
Really nice additions Koyote.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on February 28, 2021, 11:41:37 PM
I've spent the last couple weeks taking stock of the models I've already painted for this warband and fixing some of its aspects that aren't working for me. 

I started by slightly darkening the shade of blue on their robes and headscarves and adding a bit more shading to the recesses.  I also changed the color of their skin tone.  I really wanted the models to have a very dark skin tone, more Sub-Saharan (like the Sub-Saharan troops of the Almoravid armies than reinforced the Taifa states in the 11th century) than Saharan, but my painting skills just aren't up the task.  My very dark skin tones look okay under good light, but under regular lighting conditions (or the gloom of the Adepticon tournament hall) the facial details get lost quite easily.  Instead, I repainted the flesh of almost all my models using Mournfang Brown (instead of Rhinox Brown) as the base, so my Moors skin tones now look like my Tribal Hunters mercenaries (pictured below).

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5397/EMYkWY.jpg)

I finally got around to adding greenstuff scarves to my kitbashed crossbowmen.  The scarves cover the defects in the Gripping Beast plastic Arab heads and gives them that desert nomad feel.  Remember, my warband is an contingent of tough, desert dwelling Berbers/Tuaregs, not effete city-dwellers in their silks and Persian slippers. 

I've added rocks and bones to their bases, so all that's left to do now is to glue texture to their bases and they are ready for paint.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6618/DupSyv.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Codsticker on March 01, 2021, 06:45:31 AM
Wonderful work Koyote; I look forwards to seeing your crossbowmen painted.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 01, 2021, 05:18:45 PM
A little more greenstuff work on my last four hearthguard.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7015/oIWYgx.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Breazer on March 02, 2021, 07:28:08 AM
The little extra you add to these miniatures always makes them so much better. Excellent stuff as always!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on March 02, 2021, 09:55:55 AM
Nice conversion work Koyote  8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Paul Richardson on March 07, 2021, 11:39:38 AM
I've just come across this thread, and I'm enjoying it hugely. I found your Briton thread really inspiring - just about the most enjoyable I've ever read - and this one is as good. Many thanks for taking the time to share it (and PM me if you ever decide to take commissions :)).
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on March 07, 2021, 02:05:28 PM
Man, the greenstuff belts on that cavalry. You pay such attention to the small details, it's really incredible.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 09, 2021, 12:16:50 AM
Thank you everyone for all the kind words.

@Paul Richardson: I'm glad you enjoyed my work.  Have you looked through my Age of Magic thread?  Even if 'fantasy' isn't your thing, you can see how I used the Age of Magic rules to expand my Brition, Irish, and Moors collections so they can be played as either "historical" warbands or as fantasy warbands.  In some instances, like the Briton archer unit, the new units can be used for either historical or fantasy.


@Ogrob:  Like the scarves, the decision to add the belts was driven by a defect in the Gripping Beast kit that left a sizeable gap between two of the models' components. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/217/Ks2uLY.png)


BUCKLES

Ogrobís an experienced GS sculptor, so he likely knows how to make buckles, but for those of you with less GS experience, you may find this helpful.

Sculpting a simple belt buckle requires steady hand, the right tool, and some patience, but they are surprisingly easy to make. Below is the tool I use to make buckles.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4368/xcta5A.png)

You start by letting the belt cure overnight, so you can work on it without deforming it.  Next, you take a small blob of greenstuff and attach it to the belt.  Then you use a bladed sculpting tool to flatten and shape the blob into a rectangle or square.  Finally, you use the point of the bladed end of the tool to create the recesses that define the inside borders of the buckle.. You donít carve the recesses by making a cutting motion with the toolís blade, but instead you carefully poke the tip of the bladed end straight down into the shaped buckle. Each poke creates a short little line into the GS.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6259/D408gE.png)

Hereís another tip. When GS is freshly mixed, itís very pliable. As it cures it slowly hardens and expands slightly. Let the buckle cure for an hour or so and then examine it. You may find the the GS has expanded a bit, leaving the recesses less well defined. Use the tool to redefine the recesses. Since  the GS has cured a bit, itís less pliable but more forgiving and harder to accidentally deform.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 18, 2021, 05:22:12 AM
Many years ago, on a business trip to Egypt, I took a day off to and tour the pyramids from the back of a camel.  It was an amazing experience, and ever since, I've wanted to play an army that includes camel cavalry.   

When Age of Crusades was released, I thought that SAGA might be my chance to incorporate camel cavalry into a tabletop army.  The Mutatawwi'a faction includes camel cavalry, but I'm not too fond of the Mutatawwi'a battle board, so I initially passed on it.  Similarly, I don't care for Legendary Warlords, so I also passed on playing Yusuf Ibn Tashfin, the Moorish Legendary Warlord that unlocks Tuarege Camel Riders for the Moors.   Mercenary Scouts mounted on camels is an option, but they aren't a great choice.  Plus, as levy, they suck in melee.

When Age of Magic was released, I noticed that the AoM rules do not distinguish between horse-sized mounts (e.g., horses, camels, giant wolves, giant spiders, etc.), so I bought Gripping Beast's Mutatawwi'a warlord on camel and two packs of Mutatawwi'a fanatics on camel to use as AoM mounted troops for my Desert Nomads AoM warband.  Sadly ,when the models arrived I noticed how ridiculously small  the camels' heads are, and how small the camel is overall in comparison to the size of the riders. To me it looks like they put a 28mm scale rider on 20mm scale camel with really long legs.  I'm a bit of stickler for scale, so the poorly proportioned camels killed any desire I had to paint the models.

Recently, I decided that it might be fun to give the Mutatawwi'a a try, but if I were to give the Muts a go, I'd have to find proper camels for my hearthguard and warlord. 

After a bit of research, I settled on the camels from Irregular Miniatures' Mamluk model line.  The camels come in only one pose.  I like the sculpt, but the casting isn't so great.  You can see from the photo below, the  blankets that hang down the  camel's left side look like they've melted together.  It's quite different from the blankets on the other side, which are defined and have an obvious fringe.  The Irregular Miniatures camels' riders are absolute crap, but that matters little to me because I want to use the Gripping Beast riders, which are quite good.

Doing a proper job of matching Irregular Miniatures camels to the GB riders will require me to remove the saddles from the bottom of the GB rider.  In the photo below, the GB rider mounted on the Irregular Miniatures is sitting on two saddles. I should be able to bring the rider down by about 1/8th of an inch or more.  Fixing the Irregular Miniatures camels' defects is going to take some greenstuff work, but nothing too difficult.

GB rider on GB plastic horse (left).  GB Mutatawwi'a rider on Irregular Miniatures Camel (middle)  GB Mutatawwi'a rider on GB camel (right)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3328/UqqTHY.png)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on March 18, 2021, 05:26:20 AM
Koyote, I am always so impressed with your attention to detail and willingness to share your experience in such meticulous fashion. I have the deepest of respect for you and your work.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 18, 2021, 07:44:00 PM
Koyote, I am always so impressed with your attention to detail and willingness to share your experience in such meticulous fashion. I have the deepest of respect for you and your work.
Wow.  Thank you.  I greatly appreciate your feedback.  I worry that I blather on too long, so it's good to know that some of you enjoy it. ;)

I write about what inspires me and why I make the modeling choices that I make because I enjoy reading about the modeling and gaming journeys of others. Seeing purty pictures of finished models is great, but I also like to see WIP pics of conversions and greenstuff work.  It inspires and motivates me.  Plus it's a great way of learning new tricks and techniques.



Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 18, 2021, 08:00:14 PM
And more blathering....  ;)

I painted my Moors as Berber (Tuareg) tribesmen so that they can convincingly be played as any of the Muslim factions that recruited contingents of troops from western North Africa.  This includes the Umayyads (Age of Viking), Moors (Age of Crusades), and the Mutatawwi'a (Age of Crusades).  An interesting side note, both the Moors and Mutatawwi'a factions include a Legendary Warlord from the Almoravid Dynasty, which was founded in North Africa by uniting the Berber tribes.

My research into the Almoravids indicates that they made great use of war drums, which were used to terrify Christians and panic their horses.  This makes me think that I need to add some drummers to my collection of painted minis...

Since the Mutatawwi'a  faction cannot include levies and many of the abilities on the Mutatawwi'a battle board requires the Mutatawwi'a player to lower their unit's armor or remove a model from their own warband, I feel that they would benefit from some large units of Warriors to absorb the self-inflicted casualties and aggressive play style.  One of the Mutatawwi'a builds I have in mind includes 3 points of melee warriors divided into two units of 10 warriors and a 4-pack of warriors hanging back in order to secure the extra Saga dice.  I figure if this 4-pack is going to be sitting in the rear of the army, it would be fun to properly theme the unit to match its "support" role.  My idea is to make it a unit of war drummers and a standard bearer. 

The 4-pack is comprised of models from Artizan Designs' Moors model line.  Two of the models arrived with deformed faces, so I did a bit of greenstuff plastic surgery to make them presentable.  The lower half of the standard bearer's robes is flat and mostly featureless, so I used GS to add a belt and some folds.  The drummer on the far right had the same issue with flat robes.   Also, I don't like that particular drummer's original head and the twin scarf ends hanging down on its chest, so replaced the head and scarf with a plastic GB head and greenstuff.  In hindsight, I don't know if I like the replacement head either.  I may have to replace the replacement.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5143/AT2RBE.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5123/EjD3ZH.png)


In addition to the painting the new 4-pack, I need to add 2 more models to each of my existing units of 8 melee Warriors.  In keeping with the Almoravid drum theme, each unit will get another spear armed model and a model equipped with a drum.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5899/yJwGlJ.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on March 18, 2021, 08:14:50 PM
Always enjoy your modelling musings. Lovely greenstuff as always.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on March 18, 2021, 09:30:02 PM
I always follow your threads with interest as you almost always explain why you have chose particular models or conversions to achieve the effect that you are after.  This is as always an excellent thread and, as I am building a Muslim Crusader army,  will continue to provide me with inspiration.  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on March 19, 2021, 10:05:26 AM
Great work Kayote  8)

Your skills with the putty have grown, dare I say it, exponentially- really impressive work  :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: racm32 on March 19, 2021, 04:53:13 PM
Love your work
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on March 20, 2021, 12:33:20 AM
Nice work.  The thought and effort you put into your units is always impressive as well as entertaining.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 20, 2021, 05:24:13 PM
I finished the last four mounted Hearthguard.  Below are all 8 Hearthguard together.

The lights that I normally use to photograph minis interacts with the blue paint on my Moors to produce photos in which the blues possess a violet hue that you don't see when you look at the models in person, under normal lighting conditions.  I tried to correct this by using different lighting.  The result is better than the earlier photos, but it's still not quite right.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2365/PLtzpa.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on March 20, 2021, 05:32:16 PM
They look fab  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on March 20, 2021, 06:40:26 PM
Very nice indeed.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on March 20, 2021, 10:11:30 PM
Absolutely fabulous.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Tonhel on March 21, 2021, 05:51:31 AM
Amazing work! :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Codsticker on March 21, 2021, 06:00:30 AM
Wonderful rich colours- lovely figures.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 21, 2021, 07:00:40 AM
Thanks, everyone.

I did a bit more work on my 4-pack warrior "drum crew". 

I added the crescent moon banner standard topper to the banner pole, replaced the drummer's head (for the second time), and swapped out the Artizan Designs swordsman for the Gripping Beast's Mutatawwi'a Warlord on Foot. 

I really like the warlord model, and I REALLY want to incorporate the mini into my warband, but I don't need a foot warlord.  The plan is to paint him with a grey or white beard.  He'll be either an honored veteran who has seen too many summers to serve in the front lines, or an old warrior imam who accompanies the warband.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5930/FQASnc.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Too Bo Coo on March 21, 2021, 08:49:08 AM
Your work is just amazing
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Chimpfoot on March 21, 2021, 10:49:17 PM
Such smooth paint jobs
Love your style 👍🏼
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 22, 2021, 10:48:12 PM
Clever generals (which I am not) use mercenaries to exploit a certain rule or compensate for a warband's particular weakness.  I enjoy using mercenaries, mostly for the modeling, painting, and thematic opportunities.

Below is a unit of Sailors for my Moors warband.  I used Perry Miniatures' Afghan Tribesmen kit to make them.  Their garb and head coverings identify them as Muslims, but differs enough from the other models in the warband to clearly indicate that they belong to a different group.   And yes, I recognize the irony of using models depicting warriors from a landlocked country as sailors.

I still need to do some greenstuff work on them to fill in gaps.  I am tempted to add an eye patch  to the leader so I can call them pirates.  Argh, matey! 

The kit provides enough pieces to make 36 models, so I have plenty left over.  I will likely assemble another group equipped with javelins to serve as a unit of Borderers for my Mutatawwi'a warband.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1176/6Tt246.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on March 23, 2021, 01:12:27 AM
I think the quality and variety your unique units show will distract your opponents to no end.  lol
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on March 23, 2021, 08:17:29 AM
I do like the versatility of the Afghan kits out recently.

An eyepatch for the leader sounds good!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on March 23, 2021, 09:39:50 AM
Clever generals (which I am not) use mercenaries to exploit a certain rule or compensate for a warband's particular weakness.  I enjoy using mercenaries, mostly for the modeling, painting, and thematic opportunities.

Below is a unit of Sailors for my Moors warband.  I used Perry Miniatures' Afghan Tribesmen kit to make them.  Their garb and head coverings identify them as Muslims, but differs enough from the other models in the warband to clearly indicate that they belong to a different group.   And yes, I recognize the irony of using models depicting warriors from a landlocked country as sailors.

I still need to do some greenstuff work on them to fill in gaps.  I am tempted to add an eye patch  to the leader so I can call them pirates.  Argh, matey! 


I thnk Brother Vinni's miniatures has a a few Moorish corsair figures in their range if you asre looking for something a little different. Link: http://www.brother-vinni.com/shop.htm#!/Arabic-Corsairs/p/26525694/category=6199065
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 23, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
I thnk Brother Vinni's miniatures has a a few Moorish corsair figures in their range if you asre looking for something a little different. Link: http://www.brother-vinni.com/shop.htm#!/Arabic-Corsairs/p/26525694/category=6199065
Thanks.  I had considered using Vinni's wonderful corsair models, but sadly their aren't enough of them to field an 8 man unit with including duplicate models.

I did, however, purchase the the 3-pack of Arabia Corsairs for use in other projects.  The pose of one particular model and the position of its legs makes it a great candidate of an Age of  Magic paladin mounted on a magic carpet.  Once I get the model assembled, I will post it in my Age of Magic thread in the Fantasy Adventures section of the Lead Adventure forum.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 25, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Last night, I took a break from painting to do some work on my first camel cav model.   Using a pair of snips and hobby knives, I cut away the saddle and enlarged the hollow under one the of the Gripping Beast Mutatawwi'a camel riders, so that it will better fit on the Irregular Miniatures camel.  Cutting away that much white metal from the recess with a hobby knife takes a considerable amount of effort and time ( I may have to invest in an electric dremel).  After narrowing the top of the IR camel's hump a bit, I was able to fit the GB rider and IR camel together quite nicely.

My warband needs baggage models (see p.17 of the Book of Battles), so I've begun the process of designing and purchasing the pieces for each vignette.

The first baggage model will highlight the Almoravid's use of drums.   When shopping for camels, I noticed the Perry Miniatures sells a Arab drummer mounted on a camel so of course I had to purchase the model.  My Perry order arrive yesterday and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the casts.  After my bad experience with the Perry Bedouin cavalry (likely the result of worn out molds), I was quite happy to see how cleanly cast and sharp the Arab musicians set (MA17) turned out.  I am also quite happy with the size and proportions of the Perry camel.

Below is a WIP and size comparison photo.  The center left model is the GB rider and IR camel that I worked on.  The center right model is the Perry camel drummer.  The model on the far right is the GB rider on its original GB camel (with its ridiculously small head).

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5585/FbNVYu.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 27, 2021, 10:46:53 PM
I finished painting the 4 reinforcements that I will need to field my two units of melee warriors as two units of 10-packs, each with a drummer.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6760/rZ9FuT.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: marianas_gamer on March 27, 2021, 10:52:29 PM
Excellent work and I really love the shields! :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: sir_shvantselot on March 27, 2021, 11:00:33 PM
Instructive and beautiful stuff. Making me think of a Muslim force of some kind.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ogrob on March 27, 2021, 11:04:38 PM
I like those Afghan-based models above! i have been thinking about that myself as they are much nicer than any medieval Arabic forces out there.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 28, 2021, 01:02:03 AM
Excellent work and I really love the shields! :-* :-*
The shields are not the shields that come with the plastic Gripping Beast kit. They are made by Footsore Miniatures.  I like the look of this design, and using shields that differ from the GB kit is one of the many little ways I've added my own touch to these models.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3751/mcGihF.png)


The shield designs are LBM transfers, so I canít take much credit for them.

The LBM transfer used on the leftmost model was originally all tan in color with faded script. I added the black portions and carefully traced over the script with thin black paint to make the script more bold.

The black portion of LBM transfer used on the center-right model originally had a dark purple hue, so I carefully painted around the white script with black paint in order to darken the black band.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on March 28, 2021, 05:33:34 AM
Great work as usual, loving them!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on March 28, 2021, 06:39:32 AM
Excellent additions to your force.  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on March 28, 2021, 08:31:44 AM
Lovely work Kayote as per usual  :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Little Odo on March 28, 2021, 09:58:37 AM
They are very nice additions to your army - and great work on those shields!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 28, 2021, 09:35:05 PM
In general, when playing skirmish games I prefer round bases to square.  Also, I do not like to mix rounds with square (or rectangular) bases in the same warband. 

In Saga, for both aesthetic and game play reason, I prefer to mount cavalry models on pill shaped bases rather than large rounds or oval bases.  As for the latter, the one exception I've made is mounting my Age of Magic forest goblin spider riders on 40mm rounds.  For the spider riders, the rounds best fit the shape of the spider models' overall footprint.

In the past I've used 50 mm and 60 mm rounds to make Baggage (vignette) models.  Rounds are ill suited for models that have a long, roughly rectangular footprint like a wagon and draft animals.  Years ago, when I assembled the wagon from Gripping Beasts' Baggage kit, I mounted it on a homemade pill shaped base that I constructed by attaching a Renedra rectangular base to two pieces of Renedra rounds. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7899/R2YmyF.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4237/dcUs1Y.png)

The DIY Renedra pill base turned out okay, but a couple of years later when it was time to base a Victrix Gaul chariot, I needed another pill shaped base.  This time, instead of piecing together bits of Renedra bases, I made my own pill shaped base by cutting it out of a large, wooden circular base made by Litko

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8146/QUHtVc.png)

My Muslim warband's Baggage models will be a bit more traditional than the story-themed Baggage/vignette models I made for my Briton and Pagan Rus warbands.  Since I dearly love camels each will include at least one camel accompanied by some men on foot.  In my mind, the layout of each camel procession should fit nicely on pill shaped base, so it's time to crank out a few more wooden pill shaped bases.

According to the Book of Battles, a Baggage model's base must be no smaller than 40 mm x 40 mm, and no larger than a 100 mm x 50 mm rectangle.  The pill shaped bases I have in mind measure 3 inches x 2 inches (roughly 75 mm x 50 mm), so it meets the requirements.

I begin with a Litko 3 inch (1.5 mm thick) wooden base.  Using a pencil and ruler I drew a center line.  Next I added two parallel lines, each 1 inch from the center line. . 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/470/2APAFh.png)

Then I sketched 4 curves to give each end a nice rounded shape. Then used a hobby saw to cut along the two parallel lines in order to remove the semicircle pieces of each side.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6193/IznsG6.png)

Finally, I used a hobby knife and sand paper to round the corners that were created by cutting away the semicircles.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1176/G9zUr3.png)

Below is a mock-up of my first Baggage model for my Muslim warbands.  In keeping with the Almoravid drum theme, this first Baggage model will be my drum section. The camel is made by Perry Miniatures. The foot models are Gripping Beast. The plastic drums and arms come from the Perry Miniatures' Afghan Tribesmen kit.

The base is a bit crowded, so I'll likely evict the horn blower and use the extra space on the base to add some interesting terrain features.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2411/usQeXS.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on March 28, 2021, 09:42:24 PM
Lovely idea for the baggage section.

On the subject of bases have you looked at the offerings from Warbases, they do a nice range of pill bases for very reasonable prices.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on March 28, 2021, 10:19:17 PM
Looks great! Now you made me realize that I never painted baggage markers for my own Moorish army! https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=125573.0

And I *do* have a couple camels I could use. Time to get creative...!  lol

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 29, 2021, 01:06:19 AM
On the subject of bases have you looked at the offerings from Warbases, they do a nice range of pill bases for very reasonable prices.
Thanks for the tip. I will definitely keep this in mind.

It looks like Warbases has a 100 mm x 50 mm pill bases, which is the max size for Baggage, but as the length decreases, so does the width.  As such, the pill base that I desire (3" x 2") is not available.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7637/r6fx0t.jpg)

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 29, 2021, 01:18:01 AM
Looks great! Now you made me realize that I never painted baggage markers for my own Moorish army! https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=125573.0

And I *do* have a couple camels I could use. Time to get creative...!  lol

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Thanks, Mike.

You have painted yourself a handsome Moorish Warband. I can see you poured a lot of love into it. The patterned robes and hand painted shields are quite nice.

And except for that guy who wouldnít stop complaining about the Jomsvikings, Iíve enjoyed all of your podcast episodes thus far.

What kinds of configurations have you been using when playing Moors?
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on March 29, 2021, 03:12:36 PM
Oh rotary tool, where have you been all of my life?

I bought an inexpensive mini rotary tool (aka electric dremel) for $19, plus a pack of Tungsten Carbide Rotary Burrs for $15, on Amazon.  And boy oh boy, did it work great!

Previously, I used a pair of snips and a hobby knife to remove this camel rider's saddle and carve out the hollow beneath the rider to fit it onto the Irregular Miniatures' camel.  Cutting through white metal with hobby knife is a chore that quickly destroys the blade and is hard on the hands.  The task was made even more difficult by the fact that I had to get the knife into a curved hollow to remove material in a U-shape. 

The rotary tool let me accomplish in minutes what had taken me 30+minutes of snipping and careful carving.  It also let me do a much better job of shaping the U to conform to the camel's back.  I still used the snips to remove those sections that I could, such as the rear of the saddle, but after that, the only tool I needed was the rotary tool.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6526/qmpKno.png)-

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/953/6diRpi.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Sangennaru on March 29, 2021, 04:03:44 PM
Woah! got distracted a moment and BAM! what a lot of excellent conversions here!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on March 30, 2021, 12:24:42 AM
What kinds of configurations have you been using when playing Moors?

Thank you for your kind words about both the army and the podcasts! Nice to know folks are listening to it.

Here's my configuration for my warband:
ē Mounted Warlord
ē 6 mounted hearthguard with javelins
ē 6 mounted hearthguard with javelins
ē 8 foot warrriors
ē 8 foot warriors
ē 12 levy with bow

If you'd like to read my battle reports for the handful of games I've played with them, check out my blog:
Most recent, vs. Vikings: http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/2020/12/viking-raiders-bedevil-cordoba-again.html
Tale of Challenges: http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/2020/12/tale-of-challenges-first-of-saga-games.html
Vs. Pagan Rus: http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/2020/11/tangle-in-terrain-with-pagan-rus.html
Ambush scenario: http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/2020/11/feast-of-saga-at-dragons-guildhall.html
First game, vs. Last Romans: http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/2020/11/moors-beat-back-night-raid-by-rumani.html

Hope you enjoy the accounts and photos! And thanks again for the kind words...

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: TheABG on April 01, 2021, 11:25:36 PM
"Here's my configuration for my warband:
ē Mounted Warlord
ē 6 mounted hearthguard with javelins
ē 6 mounted hearthguard with javelins
ē 8 foot warrriors
ē 8 foot warriors
ē 12 levy with bow"

  That's very HG heavy. Have you tried Moors without HG? I use 4 points of warriors and 2 levy. Mounted  warriors hit as hard as HG but aren't as fragile.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on April 02, 2021, 03:15:18 AM
No, I like the fact that I can charge with them instead if shooting isnít working out. Plus, if I can make the target Exhausted on my charge (Torrent of Iron), HG can take raise armor to 6 and take zero casualties.

Plus, I havenít lost with this build yet, soooooo...😁

Mike Demana
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 04, 2021, 02:21:17 AM
I finished the 4-pack of Warriors that will, depending upon my build and the scenario, hang in the back and generate an extra SAGA die. Since they may spend much of the game just standing around, I figure they might as well look like the belong in the rear of the warband's formation -hence the flag, drums, and aged champion.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2447/0jsd7s.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on April 04, 2021, 03:14:31 AM
Excellent work as usual. 
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Tonhel on April 04, 2021, 06:14:29 AM
Beautiful! :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Ajax on April 04, 2021, 06:47:12 AM
As usual, it's beautiful. One of the most addicitve projects to follow !
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: RedRowan on April 04, 2021, 08:01:15 AM
Only just stumbled on this thread, some really great work on these.

Steve
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 04, 2021, 03:07:40 PM
Absolutely fantastic painting on those 4 figures.   :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on April 04, 2021, 09:13:01 PM
Those are gorgeous! I like how you think about how this type of unit would "make sense" on the battlefield. I am thinking for my Carolingian army that a 4-pack of warriors would be various priests praying and shouting hallelujahs!  lol

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 05, 2021, 06:13:24 PM
In the most recent episode of the Saga Thorsday podcast, Rodge and Monty voiced their desire to include in the 2022 Adepticon Saga tournament, scenarios that include baggage and/or objective markers.  This is great news, because one of the highlights of Saga tournaments is seeing all the wonderful warbands on display.  And for me, seeing each player's take on their particular warband's baggage/objective markers really adds to their warband's display.

Both Rodge and Monty are quite keen on including the Ambush scenario (see Book of Battles) into the 2022 tournament scenario lineup.  In this scenario, 3 baggage markers move across the center line of the table.  On Turn 1, the opposing warbands enter from their warband's long edge.  If a baggage marker is destroyed, it is transformed into an objective marker.  It's a Survival Point scenario in which players earn points by holding objective markers at the end of the scenario.

Transforming of baggage markers into objective markers gave me an idea.  I am going to link my baggage and objective markers together, so when I remove a particular baggage marker, it will be replaced by a particular objective marker.  To do this, each baggage marker will include a prize carried by non-combatants or guards. The corresponding objective marker will include that prize and the body of one of its guardians.  Both the baggage and objective makers will be generic enough that they can be utilized on their own, without the need to use them paired together.

I will use Wargames Foundry's Arab Casualty set to make the slain guardians.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6832/2PSwc1.png)

Below are my first two mock ups of baggage markers and accompanying objective markers.  I don't have the casualty models yet, so I am using a stand-in model.

The first baggage marker is procession of Imams, with their leader holding up a holy text that is bound in a gold, gem encrusted book cover. 

The objective marker will depict a slain Imam lying next to the sacred text.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7569/dgrYJ9.png)


The second baggage marker is procession of drummers.  The drums mounted on the camel will be sacred, Golden Drums of [insert suitably impressive name here].

The objective marker will depict a slain drummer lying next to one of the golden drums.

I don't have a spare camel drum lying around, so I made a simple mold using Instant Mold, stuffed it with greenstuff, and the next morning, voila! 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8564/jLJgud.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8987/rcnTym.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9780/E8Z2Zc.png)

The third baggage-objective set will include a prisoner.  I don't yet have the models, but they are on order.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on April 05, 2021, 06:44:22 PM
Although not Saga, I have popped a few of the Wargames Foundry EAV517 Arab Casualties in a few Berber units as seen below. They work exceptionally well and are just right for Andalusian/Almoravid, Almohad, Maranid, Abdalwadid or Hafsid 's- just add spear and shield and you're away.

I just wish I had a better picture.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 05, 2021, 07:56:28 PM
@Mikedemana and TheABG:  Thanks for posting your lists.  It always interests me to see how others play their Moors.

@Mikedemana: Thanks for posting your batreps.  Have you considered making video batreps? Also, you should definitely build your own 4-pack "support unit" of hallelujahing priests and the such.  If you do, send me a link.  I'd love to see it.

@Atheling:  Those are some handsome Berbers.  Props to you for taking the extra step to "equip" them with bamboo spears. Excellent work!

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on April 06, 2021, 02:15:18 AM
Thanks for the kind words. Maybe one day I will upgrade to video reports. What with my Lead Legionaries blog and the Saga Ohio podcasts, I hate to over-commit. However, a friend insists that he will get me to film some this summer...haha!

I love those paired baggage and objective markers -- great idea! Mine aren't quite as creative. The supplies and such inside my carts and wagons are not affixed. So, I pull them off the wagon and place them next to the unit.

Keep up the great thread -- I actually mentioned your Briton thread on the latest Saga Ohio podcast.  lol

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Atheling on April 06, 2021, 08:00:57 AM

@Atheling:  Those are some handsome Berbers.  Props to you for taking the extra step to "equip" them with bamboo spears. Excellent work!

Cheers Kayote, the bamboo spears are actually just steel wire painted to appear as though they are bamboo. :)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 06, 2021, 05:16:04 PM
Keep up the great thread -- I actually mentioned your Briton thread on the latest Saga Ohio podcast.  lol

Yup, I caught that when I listened to the episode.  Thanks.

During the most recent episode you and your guest speculated about SAGA tournaments and how SAGA tournaments might compare to DBA tournaments.  If you want to attend a really well organized SAGA tournament, you should attend one (or more) of the Adepticon SAGA tournaments.  I attended them in 2017 and 2018, and thoroughly enjoyed them.  I missed 2019 due to the birth of my youngest, and 2020 and 2021 were cancelled due to plague, but I fully intend to be there in 2022.

The Adepticon SAGA tournaments are really well run and I suspect that you will find that the attendees are great people.  Of course there is always that one guy who is bit of a putz and takes the game a bit too seriously, but that can't be helped. There's always one in any group.

My understanding is that in 2022 there will be four separate SAGA tournaments across 4 days (Thursday thru Sunday).  One of those events will likely be a doubles tournament.  In 2017 and 2018, all of the tournaments were open to any of the factions from any of the books.  Starting in 2019, they started to organize the tournaments by books to better balance the match ups.  I suspect that this will become the norm moving forward.

And while you'd think that 4 days of SAGA gaming would be enough SAGA for just about anyone, you'd be wrong.  Groups of folks inevitably gather in the Saga tournament hall after hours for casual games and adult beverages.

The Adepticon SAGA tournaments are also a chance to meet folks from SAGA community, such as Rodge, Monty, Stephen Holdeman III, Andy Lyons, and Bill Thornhill from Footsore Miniatures.

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on April 07, 2021, 02:01:15 AM
Wow...that sounds like a blast! I will definitely have to pencil that one in on my 2022 calendar. It seems to be THE big tournament for Saga in the U.S., unless I'm mistaken.

Do the tournaments usually book up in advance? If so, how far in advance do you need to pre-register?

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: Koyote on April 07, 2021, 07:47:31 PM
Wow...that sounds like a blast! I will definitely have to pencil that one in on my 2022 calendar. It seems to be THE big tournament for Saga in the U.S., unless I'm mistaken.

Do the tournaments usually book up in advance? If so, how far in advance do you need to pre-register?

Adepticon 2022 schedule is March 23rd to March 27th. Registration normally begins in early December.  SAGA slots normally fill up pretty fast -the doubles events are especially popular.  Since Adepticon 2020 and 2021 were cancelled, I suspect a really big turnout for Adepticon 2022, so you will want to sign up the day (hour or minute) that the registration website goes live.  Also, hotel rooms at the venue and in nearby locations fill up really fast, so you will want to book those months in advance. 

I recommend that you visit the Adepticon website and sign up for the newsletter and email alerts. 

The Adepticon SAGA tournament packets are typically published a month or two prior to registration, so you will know in advance what events are occurring on what days and what factions are permitted for each event.

Rodge runs a SAGA Thorsday narrative tournament on Thursday.  The other 3 SAGA tournaments will likely occur on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

https://www.facebook.com/AdeptiCon.org/


Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: mikedemana on April 08, 2021, 01:13:50 AM
Thanks for the info! I will definitely keep that in mind and do as you suggest. Sorry to threadjack your thread... lol

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors
Post by: syrinx0 on April 08, 2021, 02:16:58 AM
Though I have never entered a Saga tournament, I must agree Adepticon is a blast.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on April 11, 2021, 05:00:20 PM
I've been thinking more and more about playing this warband as Mutatawwi'a. When I do so, I want to include a unit of auxiliary (mercenary) Borderers.  Their unit entry describes them as fierce and independent warriors who come from difficult to reach, mountainous regions.  Their special rule, Formidable, emphasizes familiarity with rough, rocky terrain by providing them an increase to their Armor when the unit is within uneven terrain providing solid cover.

Below is a unit of Borderers, assembled from the Perry Miniatures Afghan Tribesmen kit.  My preferred equipment choice for Borderers is javelins, so I've replaced some of their swords with metal javelins. In two instances the sword poses were too cool to get rid of, so I added a javelin to the models' shield hand.  To symbolize the Borderers preference for fighting in rough terrain, I've deviated a bit from standard recipe for this warband by adding large areas of rocky terrain to the bases.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8088/x1IEZm.jpg)

I used Woodland Scenics Surface Rocks (C1231) rubber mold to cast the plaster-of-paris rocks.  This mold casts rocks that are much larger and thicker than what I need for basing these models, so I had to break them up and then shave them down with a hobby knife.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/812/qVl6x4.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Ogrob on April 11, 2021, 05:05:37 PM
They look great! Some real cool sword poses in that set indeed.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on April 18, 2021, 05:14:10 AM
I finished assembling my Muslim themed baggage and objective markers.  All that's left to do is to add texture to the bases, primer, and paint.

As I posted earlier, these baggage and objective markers are designed to be use in conjunction with one another for the Ambush scenario, or independently of one another.

The first baggage marker depicts a procession of drummers. The drums on the camel will be gold plated ceremonial drums with sacred significance to the Almoravid. 

The objective marker depicts one of the sacred drums and a dead drummer.  The casualty model used for this model is beardless, so I used GS to add a short beard, similar to that of the camel mounted drummer.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8366/1ja7d1.jpg)

The second baggage marker depicts two Christian monks/priests and their captor, a Muslim warrior.  All three have paused to look at the remains of a long dead warrior. 

On the objective marker we see that the captor has been slain, and the remaining monk/priest is begging for mercy or giving a heartfelt thanks to his rescuers.  You can't see it from this angle, but I've added a conical helm to the top of the casualty's head to match the helm worn by the model on the baggage marker.

These models need more work. I plan to add chains to the monks/priests to more clearly indicate that they are prisoners.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2556/ZXtgj7.jpg)

The third baggage marker depicts a parade of armed warrior imams.  Their leader is holding aloft two relics, a small golden urn and a gold bound text. 

The objective marker depicts a slain imam.  The relics lie beside his corpse.  A vulture has swooped in a for a quick snack.

I used GS to add a forked beard and a band around the casualty model's forehead to match the headdress worn by the imam on the baggage marker.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7993/R16KQR.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: RedRowan on April 18, 2021, 08:27:56 AM
These are brilliant, really like that you've designed them to work together as well as individually.

Steve
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Atheling on April 18, 2021, 11:12:48 AM
Fab conversion work on those vignettes  8)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 18, 2021, 04:19:47 PM
Wonderful attention to detail.  Can't wait to see them painted up.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on April 18, 2021, 07:45:46 PM
Behold, the new and improved baggage and objective markers.  Now with more arrows, chains, and manacles.

The arrows come from the Fireforge Games Living Dead Warriors kit.  It's such a great kit.  The arrows add a bit of height to the models and serve as an interesting detail.

The chains come from the GW plastic Flagellants kit.  Over the years I've gone to the well-o-bits that is the Flagellants kit, over and over and over again.  It has so many great heads, weapons, torsos, and extra bits.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7923/bMmbjT.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: syrinx0 on April 18, 2021, 11:33:53 PM
You really understand the components which significantly add to base stands.  The end result from kit bashing or green stuff additions is really fantastic.  Looking forward to seeing these painted.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Hu Rhu on April 20, 2021, 06:14:01 PM
These lovely touches on the figures and bases, make your threads stand out head and shoulders above the pack.  Keep it up.  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: mikedemana on April 24, 2021, 02:48:09 AM
I can't wait to see these painted up. I love the way you make a story out of each base!

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 08, 2021, 05:09:30 PM
I finished my Borderers (Age of Crusades mercenaries) armed with javelins.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3719/77qzDa.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 08, 2021, 05:37:41 PM
Lovely muted colours.  :-* :-*
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: RedRowan on May 08, 2021, 05:54:01 PM
They look very nice!

Steve
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Ogrob on May 08, 2021, 05:59:05 PM
Very sharp!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 08, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
Loving that look on them. Inspirational!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Little Odo on May 08, 2021, 08:46:28 PM
They look awesome. A great looking warband.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: mikedemana on May 10, 2021, 02:48:04 AM
They look great! Keep them coming...

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 11, 2021, 03:13:01 PM
In my Mutatawaii'a warband, the warlord will be mounted on a camel as well as a single unit of 4 hearthguard.

As I posted earlier, I struggle to find dark age or medieval camel and rider models that are well sculpted, properly proportioned, and well casted. I've purchased camel models from Gripping Beast, Perry Miniatures, eBob  Miniatures, Irregular Miniatures, and even an Aussie company called Castaway Arts. I've looked online at what's available from Eureka Minaitures, Black Tree Design, Warlord Game, Wargames Foundry, Essex Miniatures, Alternative Armies, and others.  In my opinion, all of the models are either too small (most companies), hideous and too small (e.g. Black Tree Design and Alternative Armies), poorly proportioned and too small (e.g., Gripping Beast), and/or casted poorly.  I've come to the conclusion, that models fitting this description simply don't exist, so I am going to have to make due with what's out there.

The camels from Irregular Miniatures are the correct size and except for their feet, are well proportioned.  The quality of the sculpts is meh and the quality of the casts ranges from poor to absolute crap.  Nevertheless, equipped with a rotary tool and greenstuff, and fueled by my peculiar form of modeling OCD, I'm confident that I can make the Irregular Miniature camels presentable.

Below, for purposes of comparison, is shot of the Gripping Beast camel, a WIP Irregular Miniature camel (I still need to fix the defects on the legs and sculpt proper feet), and a second Irregular Miniature camel.   The sculptor of the Irregular Miniature camel added patches of long hair to the model's head, top of the hump, and to its left fore flank, but oddly enough, not on the right fore flank. The patches of hair aren't especially well sculpted and thanks to the quality of the cast, much of the detail has been lost. Rather than try to repair the lost detail, I used my rotary tool to file away the patches of hair on the body.  I then used  greenstuff to cover up the file marks, fill in holes and cracks created by the poor casting, and better portray some of the camel's musculature.

BTW, the Irregular Miniature on the right is an example of one of the best casts I received. the tassels on the bottom of saddle blanket are deformed and mostly missing, but at least cast of the blankets are sharp enough to distinguish between the upper and lower blankets. On half of the models I received the tassels are completely gone and the two blankets look like they've melted into one blurred mess dripping down the camel's side.  I continue to be amazed that manufacturers will allow such crap casts to leave their factory (or in the case of home casters, their garage).  Personally, I'd be ashamed to charge full price for such crap casting.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3551/Lcw4xs.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Breazer on May 12, 2021, 04:09:11 PM
I feel for you sir!

But as usual you will give this the attention and care to make it work. I'm curious how the end result will be.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 13, 2021, 05:54:27 PM
Camel's feet are big and wide to keep the camel from sinking into loose and shifting sands, and the webbing between the toes unites them into a single surface to further resist sinking.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1302/sEQco4.png)

As you can see from the picture below, the feet of the Irregular Miniature's camels falls far short of proper camel feet (they look more like deer hooves), so I made my own. 

I also used greenstuff to repair the tail tuft, which was deformed by the model's poor casting. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3056/RJiE8t.png)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Tonhel on May 13, 2021, 06:18:24 PM
That looks very cool!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Codsticker on May 14, 2021, 01:41:40 AM
As you can see from the picture below, the feet of the Irregular Miniature's camels falls far short of proper camel feet (they look more like deer hooves), so I made my own. 
That... is attention to detail.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 15, 2021, 03:18:13 AM
Now that Iím satisfied with my prototype, itís time to start shearing camels.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2036/AoLqMQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Atheling on May 15, 2021, 05:23:21 AM
Watch those digits!! :o
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 15, 2021, 11:28:47 PM
Watch those digits!! :o
Thanks. I have yet to be bitten by my rotary tool, but as all long time modelers know, these things are only a matter of time...
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/460/yZhmGf.gif)

The camels have been shorn and based.  They are now ready for greenstuff.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/883/XAHhFc.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Atheling on May 16, 2021, 10:40:20 AM
Thanks. I have yet to be bitten by my rotary tool, but as all long time modelers know, these things are only a matter of time...


Good luck with that. I once cut into my thumb so badly it took the doctor in the hospital five hours to stop the bleeding! In the end he had to get the silver nitrate out!!  :o :'( :'( :'( I missed the main nerve in my thumb my less then 1mm!!!

From that moment onwards, whenever I have to force anything with a Dremel or a scalpel/modelling knife I put Kevlar gloves on!
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 17, 2021, 03:38:13 AM
Good luck with that. I once cut into my thumb so badly it took the doctor in the hospital five hours to stop the bleeding! In the end he had to get the silver nitrate out!!  :o :'( :'( :'( I missed the main nerve in my thumb my less then 1mm!!!

From that moment onwards, whenever I have to force anything with a Dremel or a scalpel/modelling knife I put Kevlar gloves on!
Iíve cut my fingers countless time over the years, but nothing nearly as bad as that. Yikes!

My weirdest hobby injury involved a xacto blade.  I was holding my knife and model up, just below eye level. When the blade slipped from my grasp, I was afraid that itíd land point down in my lap, so I made a grab at it. My clumsy swipe at it made contact, but instead of knocking the hobby knife away, it did the opposite. I remember looking down at an xacto blade sticking out of my chest. The tip went into the costal cartilage just to the left of my sternum.  It didnít hurt or bleed too much, but it  was a weird experience pulling a xacto blade out of my chest.

I remember saying to myself: ďWhat a dumb ass.Ē
 
I paused my audiobook, cleaned the wound, put a bandaid on it, took two Tylenol, and then went back to work on my models. I still have the t-shirt with the half inch slit in it, just to the left of my sternum.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Atheling on May 17, 2021, 05:08:11 AM
Iíve cut my fingers countless time over the years, but nothing nearly as bad as that. Yikes!

My weirdest hobby injury involved a xacto blade.  I was holding my knife and model up, just below eye level. When the blade slipped from my grasp, I was afraid that itíd land point down in my lap, so I made a grab at it. My clumsy swipe at it made contact, but instead of knocking the hobby knife away, it did the opposite. I remember looking down at an xacto blade sticking out of my chest. The tip went into the costal cartilage just to the left of my sternum.  It didnít hurt or bleed too much, but it  was a weird experience pulling a xacto blade out of my chest.

I remember saying to myself: ďWhat a dumb ass.Ē
 
I paused my audiobook, cleaned the wound, put a bandaid on it, took two Tylenol, and then went back to work on my models. I still have the t-shirt with the half inch slit in it, just to the left of my sternum.

Holy &$#*. That must have been an extremely worrying moment seeing the knife sticking out of your chest like that!  :o :o :o

Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 23, 2021, 05:41:17 AM
Aside from sorting out the reins and adding a forward saddle horn, I'm almost done with the camels. 

Some of their feet are a bit too big, so I will have to trim them with a hobby knife.

Each model had a loop of rope around it's neck from which hung a tassel.  The tassels and ropes were severely deformed by the poor castings, so I removed them altogether, and covered up the scars left by their removal with greenstuff. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8308/BfND6C.jpg)

As for the riders, I'm going to use two Gripping Beast camel riders and 3 Footsore Miniatures minis from their Arab Heavy Cavalry kits.

The model on the far right will most likely be my Warlord. It's pose is quite static, but its the most heavily armored and thus the most impressive of the five.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9966/C2GUVY.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Little Odo on May 23, 2021, 11:33:36 AM
Excellent repair work on those camels. The feet look OK size-wise to me. Your choice of riders is also very inspired. Looking forward to seeing them painted up.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Ogrob on May 23, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Very clean greenstuff work, surely these will turn out very nice in the end.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 23, 2021, 05:40:19 PM
One down, four to go.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6495/FXhWen.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: mikedemana on May 30, 2021, 12:58:32 AM
Awesome stuff, as usual! I agree...that is amazing attention to detail to fix the feet of the camel.  :o

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on May 30, 2021, 05:23:38 AM
Thanks Mike.


I used a rotary tool to carve away the riders' original saddles.  For those who sit with legs on either side of the camel, I had to widen their stance as well.  Once fitted to their mount, I used greenstuff to rebuild the parts that were damaged or carved away.

All that's left to do is to add texture to the bases and my camel cavalry are ready for paint.

I don't yet have good recipe for painting camels, so I will primer a test model or two to practice on. Good thing I have plenty of extras.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6401/KqohXm.jpg)
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on May 30, 2021, 05:36:12 AM
Continually great and inspirational work mate. I look forward to seeing how you paint the camels as I have a pack camel I need to paint.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Hu Rhu on May 30, 2021, 11:53:58 AM
Very nice additions and conversions.  :-* :-* :-*  I used Foundry Drab 3 with its three layers, when I painted my camels.  I am sure that similar shades exist in other paints as well.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Koyote on July 05, 2021, 08:24:50 PM
June was a slow hobby month.  My home, like most homes in Western Washington, doesn't have central air conditioning.  Painting in the baking heat with a fan blowing on me is both unpleasant and unproductive, so I spent my relatively few hobby hours in June planning and assembling my Age of Hannibal Graeculi warband.

Things have cooled down enough for me to start thinking about putting paint on minis again.  Near the top of my painting to-do list are my Mutatawwi'a warlord and hearthguard.  All five models have been primered and are ready for paint, but my warlord needed a proper display base, so I updated the magnetized display base I originally built for my mounted Moor warlord.  I added a mace an a greenstuff scarf to the horn blower, and replaced the original standard bearer with a different Brother Vinni Arabian model.  I still need to glue texture to it, but once done, it will be ready for paint.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8734/vpg9O2.png)

My 75mm display base isn't permissible under the rules (a Warlord's base caps out at 60mm),  but if you've followed my other threads, you will know that during game play, I prefer to keep my warlords on standard size bases.  Thus, my display bases are exactly as described, purely for display purposes only.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on July 06, 2021, 03:33:51 AM
Looking good mate! Stay cool.
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: mikedemana on July 06, 2021, 07:07:48 PM
That has to be brutal out there in the Pacific NW! Luckily, I live in the Midwest, where we swing from sweltering to bone chilling on an annual -- if not monthly -- basis!  lol

Looking good! Always fun to see your updates. I wish I had your craftsmanship in modifying figs...

Mike Demana
http://leadlegionaries.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Koyote's SAGA Moors & Mutatawwi'a
Post by: Hu Rhu on July 06, 2021, 08:30:52 PM
Very cool - even if you can't be.  :D :D