Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Wulko on October 03, 2019, 11:25:23 PM
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Hi!
I just bought the Landsknecht starter from Warlord and I'm thinking about getting the Perry european mercenaries as their swiss rivals. Would that be somewhat appropriate or are they way off historicaly?
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They would be off by a few decades, but a lot of people seem to do it anyway.
The truth is that during the Italian wars landsknecht and Swiss fighting each other at any one time would look more or less identical, other than a few small details such as sidearms (they both made use of their own distinctive forms of short sword). The Swiss certainly wouldn't be wearing clothes and armour 30 or 40 years out of date. They were followers of fashion also!
Though of course that's not to say you shouldn't do it.
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Ditto the above. It's been very difficult to source miniatures that tie in for one another for both the Landsknechts (TAG) and for the Swiss ( Fornovo and Dornach), which I'm still stuck on :(
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Ultimately it's just a question of priorities.
If I cared a bit more about historical accuracy, but still not enough to pay for metals, I'd build both the Swiss and Landsknechts from the Landsknecht box, being distinguished mostly by sidearms as Charlie_ says, but also perhaps with the poofier sleeves and beardier heads mostly going to the Landsknechts.
As it is, though, my Swiss are going to be something like a 20/80 mix of Warlord Landsknecht and Perry Mercenary bits, because variety is fun and kitbashing is my favorite hobby activity.
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They would be off by a few decades, but a lot of people seem to do it anyway.
The truth is that during the Italian wars landsknecht and Swiss fighting each other at any one time would look more or less identical...
Would the same go for Spanish or Valois troops? I somewhere got the impression in my head that swiss and landsknecht mercenaries were at the avant-garde end of fashion, whereas other soldiers would have looked old fashioned by comparison. Would a Spanish arquebusier or rodelero have kept up with the fashion to have slash and puff stylings at pavia, for instance? Or would they still be wearing unembellished hose like in the perry mercenaries box?
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Would the same go for Spanish or Valois troops? I somewhere got the impression in my head that swiss and landsknecht mercenaries were at the avant-garde end of fashion, whereas other soldiers would have looked old fashioned by comparison. Would a Spanish arquebusier or rodelero have kept up with the fashion to have slash and puff stylings at pavia, for instance? Or would they still be wearing unembellished hose like in the perry mercenaries box?
It's probably fair to assume that the Landsknechts (and perhaps the Swiss too?) would have the most 'out there' attire.
But fashion trends spread fast I suppose.
From a wargaming perspective it certainly would make sense to have them wearing the fancier clothes, and other nationalities in somewhat more subdued kit.
But personnally I wouldn't interpret this as everyone else wearing clothes and armour from several decades ago.
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Thanks for taking time to reply, really helpfull! :D I'll probably get the mercenaries and kitbash, because kitbashing is my drug.
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About the easiest way to differentiate between Swiss and Landsknecht costume is, that while both often wore a cross insignia somewhere on their bodies (sometimes a cloth applique, sometimes just formed by slashes in the outer clothing), Landsknecht (as Imperialists) wore it in an X shape (Cross of Burgundy - one of the badges of the Hapsburgs), while Swiss Reiselaufer wore it in a + shape (like that on the modern Swiss flag).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/84/97/828497667512d91a4a9158e4be695eee.jpg
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If I cared a bit more about historical accuracy, but still not enough to pay for metals, I'd build both the Swiss and Landsknechts from the Landsknecht box, being distinguished mostly by sidearms as Charlie_ says, but also perhaps with the poofier sleeves and beardier heads mostly going to the Landsknechts.
Does the Warlord Landsknecht box come with both Schweizerdegen and Katzbalger options? ;D
If so I'm in, just for the sword options!!
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Sorry to get your hopes up Atheling... while the daggers look (to inexpert me) to be Swiss, but you'd have to extend them to be proper short swords, which I may or may not have the energy to do.
Also, per Metternich, there is a Landsknecht body with X slashing on the chest that I will greenstuff into a + for any time I use it as Swiss. But I will not be correcting the + slashing on the poofy sleeve arms where I've used them for landsknechts.
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Sorry to get your hopes up Atheling... while the daggers look (to inexpert me) to be Swiss, but you'd have to extend them to be proper short swords, which I may or may not have the energy to do.
Also, per Metternich, there is a Landsknecht body with X slashing on the chest that I will greenstuff into a + for any time I use it as Swiss. But I will not be correcting the + slashing on the poofy sleeve arms where I've used them for landsknechts.
It was just a though mate. The slashing on the sleeves is OK but you're right about getting the green stuff out.
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Here is a link to an excellent article on the blog Camisado, which details for the wargamer the development of Landsknecht and Swiss clothing through the 16th century.
http://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2019/01/mid-16th-century-landsknecht.html
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Artisan do produce some very nice specifically Swiss pike and arquebusiers for the Italian Wars. They also produce landsknechts and they do look different from one another, with the Swiss showing slightly less flamboyant slashing of sleeves and hose. Incidentally the Landsknechts from Warlord and mercenaries from Perry, together with their Swiss heads, mix and match well to produce a figure with a Swiss style head, slashed sleeves and tight hose, giving a different look to a true landsknecht. The problem with wars which go on for several decades is that fashions change. All the troops of the 1490s/1500s looked far less flamboyant to the troops of the 1520s. Consequently I like to push my armies up to the 1515 period and stop there.
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My reply to this will not be helpful, probably.
You will not find what you want: Swiss, right period; Landsknehts right period; French right period. You must go with the Italian Wars flow - ciao baby!
Collect very late 15C, early 16C figures, then hold your nose and jump in.
I don't know of any manufacturer who will do everything you can have for the period (28mm is my bag) so don't even go there. You will have to be, to get what you want, somewhat eclectic.
My collection is from the most eclectic mix of figure manufacturers I wold think necessary, though I still keep adding.
Take a look at some pics of mine here:
http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/search/label/Italian%20Wars (http://olicanalad.blogspot.com/search/label/Italian%20Wars)
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I forgot to mention the Assault Group, whose Italian Wars range of figures are specifically designed for the earlier part of the Wars. For the Spanish go with the Neapolitan Spanish, many of whom are still wearing the skirted tunic. The Italians and Landsknechts are also fine for the period. If you go to the Renaissance section of their website the figures can be found under Italians, Spanish, Maximillian Imperial and Albanian. Unfortunately they took the strange decision to produce the French for the 1644 campaign.
Steel Fist Miniatures Gendarmes and lighter cavalry are ideal for the French, but there are no other specifically French troops as such.
An excellent source of information and inspiration is
http://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.co.uk/
which shows how to convert Perry figures to early Italian Wars - specifically English and French. He has also produced some metal dollies in the full skirted coat of the early C16th which will accept Perry arms and heads. These are also available through Steel Fist Miniatures.
Another very useful source of early Spanish pikemen is Old Glory. Many of these are wearing the skirted tunic, and some are depicted as turbaned Spanish moslems now incorporated into Ferdinand’s armies. They also have the advantage of hands to be drilled for accepting separate metal pikes, which then don’t fall off.
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I forgot to mention the Assault Group, whose Italian Wars range of figures are specifically designed for the earlier part of the Wars. For the Spanish go with the Neapolitan Spanish, many of whom are still wearing the skirted tunic. The Italians and Landsknechts are also fine for the period. If you go to the Renaissance section of their website the figures can be found under Italians, Spanish, Maximillian Imperial and Albanian.
Thanks. I'm very familiar with Pete's (Tag Pete that is) Spanish, Neapolitan Spanish, Spanish, Italian and Maximilian ranges. I really like the Early Landsknechts . Lovely sculpts. I was contemplating using them as both Swiss and Landsknechts (with minor conversions on side arms) but there is a distinct lack of any crossbowmen in the range which is a problem for the Swiss as they were slower to take up the arquebus then their adversaries. They would be fine for the 'Germans'.
Steel Fist Miniatures Gendarmes and lighter cavalry are ideal for the French, but there are no other specifically French troops as such.
An excellent source of information and inspiration is
http://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.co.uk/
which shows how to convert Perry figures to early Italian Wars - specifically English and French. He has also produced some metal dollies in the full skirted coat of the early C16th which will accept Perry arms and heads. These are also available through Steel Fist Miniatures.
Yep, I've got some ;) :)
Another very useful source of early Spanish pikemen is Old Glory. Many of these are wearing the skirted tunic, and some are depicted as turbaned Spanish moslems now incorporated into Ferdinand’s armies. They also have the advantage of hands to be drilled for accepting separate metal pikes, which then don’t fall off.
I'm afraid that not all that into the OG Italian Wars range :(
The quest continues :)
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Does the Warlord Landsknecht box come with both Schweizerdegen and Katzbalger options? ;D
If so I'm in, just for the sword options!!
The Perry produced multi-part Warhammer Empire plastics from the late 90s came with Schweizerdegen on the sprues, in scabbards and wielded in one hand.
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About the easiest way to differentiate between Swiss and Landsknecht costume is, that while both often wore a cross insignia somewhere on their bodies (sometimes a cloth applique, sometimes just formed by slashes in the outer clothing), Landsknecht (as Imperialists) wore it in an X shape (Cross of Burgundy - one of the badges of the Hapsburgs), while Swiss Reiselaufer wore it in a + shape (like that on the modern Swiss flag).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/84/97/828497667512d91a4a9158e4be695eee.jpg
Landsknechts could wear + signs too, albeit in red...
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You will not find what you want: Swiss, right period; Landsknehts right period; French right period. You must go with the Italian Wars flow - ciao baby!
Have you considered the Artizan Designs Swiss? They appear to be first quarter of 16th century: https://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=20&cat=147&page=1 (https://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=20&cat=147&page=1)
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Artisan Design Swiss are indeed lovely figures, with the right sort of cross as slashing, and they are not too flamboyant. It is a pity they were not made with drillable hands, as the pikes on mine keep pinging off!
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Artisan do produce some very nice specifically Swiss pike and arquebusiers for the Italian Wars. They also produce landsknechts and they do look different from one another, with the Swiss showing slightly less flamboyant slashing of sleeves and hose.
Yeah, the problem being that the Artizan Swiss range is a very small range by comparison to their Landsknechts. Otherwise, for my purposes anyway, they would be ideal!
It's a bit of a shame, I remember emailing Mike when he announced the range and he was talking about producing more mini's than ever went into production. Of course, if you're running a business based on selling mini's then you might have legitimate reasons for not continuing with the original plans.
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Yeah, the problem being that the Artizan Swiss range is a very small range by comparison to their Landsknechts. Otherwise, for my purposes anyway, they would be ideal!
It's a bit of a shame, I remember emailing Mike when he announced the range and he was talking about producing more mini's than ever went into production. Of course, if you're running a business based on selling mini's then you might have legitimate reasons for not continuing with the original plans.
I recall when I pointed out to him the limited extent of the range, he indicated that the range was supposed to be mixed in with the more flamboyant landsknechts.
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I recall when I pointed out to him the limited extent of the range, he indicated that the range was supposed to be mixed in with the more flamboyant landsknechts.
In short that is invalidated by the weapons sculpted onto the mini's ie. short swords.
in general the Swiss preferred the Schweizerdegen and the Landsknecht the Katzbalger. They were not mutually exclusive but certainly they were the preferred last resort weapon of each 'nationality'.
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in general the Swiss preferred the Schweizerdegen and the Landsknecht the Katzbalger.
Indeed, the miniatures would need a bit of converting ether way.
I would hope that the range could someday be expanded. He offers the only 28mm Swiss appropriate for the first quarter of the 16th century (in my view). He may be missing an opportunity.
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Indeed, the miniatures would need a bit of converting ether way.
I would hope that the range could someday be expanded. He offers the only 28mm Swiss appropriate for the first quarter of the 16th century (in my view). He may be missing an opportunity.
Agreed! One day soon I hope!
The conversions shouldn't be that difficult, but they will be time consuming :(
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Just to illustrate my point:
Swiss Swiss Schweizerdegen (first picture) and Landsknecht (Second picture):
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Thanks. I'm very familiar with Pete's (Tag Pete that is) Spanish, Neapolitan Spanish, Spanish, Italian and Maximilian ranges. I really like the Early Landsknechts . Lovely sculpts. I was contemplating using them as both Swiss and Landsknechts (with minor conversions on side arms) but there is a distinct lack of any crossbowmen in the range which is a problem for the Swiss as they were slower to take up the arquebus then their adversaries.
How many crossbowmen would you really need for your Swiss force? TAG makes plenty of crossbowmen in the Spanish and Italian ranges, and with some conversion work these could look close enough. For example, how about the Neapolitan Spanish crossbowmen with head swaps from the Perry European armies range (which contains two packs of spare metal heads).
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It might be possible to build Swiss crossbows using a mixture of pieces from the Perry's European Mercenaries, Landsknechts and separate metal heads sets.
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It might be possible to build Swiss crossbows using a mixture of pieces from the Perry's European Mercenaries, Landsknechts and separate metal heads sets.
If one wants to dabble with converting plastics, perhaps a more straightforward starting point would be the Warlord Games set of Landsknecht missile troops. There is a review with sprue pics available here:
https://www.chaosbunker.de/en/2018/08/21/review-warlord-games-pike-shotte-landsknecht-missile-troops/
Perhaps not the most impressive plastic set out there, but in this context there are a few interesting features:
1.) Every model has a choice of arquebuss or crossbow as armament
2.) The swords are provided as separate pieces rather than cast on, and thus are easy to replace
3.) Ammo/quarrel pouches are also separate pieces
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If one wants to dabble with converting plastics, perhaps a more straightforward starting point would be the Warlord Games set of Landsknecht missile troops.
I've got some on order for some conversion work.
I would not use the Warlord Landsknecht plastic as they are as they look far too wooden for my liking.
Fine for kit bashing but when you compare them to the dynamism of the Steel Fist range there is absolutely no comparison!
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Unfortunately they took the strange decision to produce the French for the 1644 campaign.
I guess you meant to write 1544 here.
As I recall, at the time TAG released English and French forces for the 1540's, to provide two matched sides for the 1544 campaign. These were introduced initially as a Kickstarter, and I recall there was also a prospect of doing some other forces for the same decade (Scots, Irish etc.) to provide further opponents, but these have not materialised so far.
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Yes you are right, 1544 - The Camisade of Boulogne.