Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Atheling on October 25, 2019, 04:01:47 PM
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I'm thinking Crusader as they have the look of tallying with the "Franks" of the Crusades and would also not look out of step date wise with the Perry Seljuk range.
Opinions?
Thanks :)
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Although normally a big fan of Crusader Miniatures, I found their Byzantine foot disappointing and oddly smaller than their other Dark Age ranges.
When I then got some of the GB figures they were a clear winner for me. So much more character.
Since then I notice Drabant Miniatures and V&V Miniatures have very nice growing Byzantine ranges although higher postage being outside the UK.
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Although normally a big fan of Crusader Miniatures, I found their Byzantine foot disappointing and oddly smaller than their other Dark Age ranges.
I quite like the Crusader Miniatures range. By the time you have got Manzikert (1071) and the destruction of Byzantine's arguably finest field army under your belt, forward to Dyrrachium (1081) which is my long term goal, you could easily mix the padded and scale armours in the Crusader range in the same unit. The days of the Themata per say are a thing of the past.
When I then got some of the GB figures they were a clear winner for me. So much more character.
You make a good point. I hadn't realised they there was a choice of oval or teardrop shields. That makes all the difference 8)
Since then I notice Drabant Miniatures and V&V Miniatures have very nice growing Byzantine ranges although higher postage being outside the UK.
Both ranges are small, especially Drabant which I like a lot. Andy gave me some Saxons a few years ago and once they are painted up they fit very well with my Gripping Beast and Saxon miniatures Saxons despite being a little larger. As far as V&V go, I'm just not a fan of historical resin miniatures I'm afraid. Too flimsy.
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V&V look to be nice sculps but being resin would also put me off.
I believe the Byzantines used the oval shield until quite late so even into this period?
I thought the Byzantine army at Dyrrachium was mostly mercenaries? I keep hoping someone like Bad Squiddo will eventually do a Sikelgaita model who would be essential as one of the Norman commanders for this battle.
Really like the Aventine range so far. I suppose they are too early for what you want? Hopefully the range will soon expand into the later periods?
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V&V look to be nice sculps but being resin would also put me off.
Yep, one false move and snap!
I believe the Byzantines used the oval shield until quite late so even into this period?
Yeah, they did. The oval shield was generally earlier. Of course the change over would have varied in the different parts of what was left of the empire.
Really like the Aventine range so far. I suppose they are too early for what you want? Hopefully the range will soon expand into the later periods?
Yeah, they are beautiful models but way, way too early for Dyrrachium
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I use Magister Militum myself.
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Just recently we had a battle between the Byzantines and the Sultanate of Rum. The army of the Byzantines is mainly Crusader and GB.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XVXAVVMLt6Y/Xat50QZ6GpI/AAAAAAAAEhY/KDpEFGzT2zoHPntJ0Gg6n4QKq3IofbXPACNcBGAsYHQ/s640/IMG_7455.JPG)
Two reports from the game to see the figures in on the table:
https://klingula.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post_25.html
https://electricalkandeyka.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post.html
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Nicely painted armies. Inspiration for my Byzantines which are still a while off being completed.
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Just recently we had a battle between the Byzantines and the Sultanate of Rum. The army of the Byzantines is mainly Crusader and GB.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XVXAVVMLt6Y/Xat50QZ6GpI/AAAAAAAAEhY/KDpEFGzT2zoHPntJ0Gg6n4QKq3IofbXPACNcBGAsYHQ/s640/IMG_7455.JPG)
Two reports from the game to see the figures in on the table:
https://klingula.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post_25.html
https://electricalkandeyka.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post.html
I popped over to your blog for a better view and it is a really lovely looking game :-* :-* :-*
If I was to be hyper critical I'd say that the i would have replaced the Gripping Beast Seljuk Turks with Perry Mini's Seljuk Heavy Cavalry , packs MA2, MA6-14 as the kontos was an anachronism by the time of Dyrrachium. Of course this is a very minor quibble- the game looks beautiful:)
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I use Magister Militum myself.
I'm not a fan of their mini;s to be honest.
Just recently we had a battle between the Byzantines and the Sultanate of Rum. The army of the Byzantines is mainly Crusader and GB.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XVXAVVMLt6Y/Xat50QZ6GpI/AAAAAAAAEhY/KDpEFGzT2zoHPntJ0Gg6n4QKq3IofbXPACNcBGAsYHQ/s640/IMG_7455.JPG)
Two reports from the game to see the figures in on the table:
https://klingula.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post_25.html
https://electricalkandeyka.blogspot.com/2019/10/blog-post.html
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I popped over to your blog for a better view and it is a really lovely looking game :-* :-* :-*
If I was to be hyper critical I'd say that the i would have replaced the Gripping Beast Seljuk Turks with Perry Mini's Seljuk Heavy Cavalry , packs MA2, MA6-14 as the kontos was an anachronism by the time of Dyrrachium. Of course this is a very minor quibble- the game looks beautiful:)
Life is too short to clean Perry metals....
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Have you looked at the Old Glory Byzantines? They do different packs with different amounts of armor on guys for the foot, including peltastos with padded armor. I'm not a fan of their cav from this range.
The Crusader mounted are glorious, but I'm not sure how well they line up with the Komnenan period cav.
I wonder whether there is a way to make late Byzantine cav starting from the Aventine Steppe Nobles? I imagine the Byzantines should be a little more regular looking, and I don't know whether there are byzantine style heads that would go on those figs....
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Have you looked at the Old Glory Byzantines? They do different packs with different amounts of armor on guys for the foot, including peltastos with padded armor. I'm not a fan of their cav from this range.
It's not that I don't appreciate the suggestion but unfortunately I'm really not a big fan of their Byzantine range.
The Crusader mounted are glorious, but I'm not sure how well they line up with the Komnenan period cav.
The 'old' Ebob horses make all the difference. They were on license for many a year and used by Musketeer, Artizan, Crusader and Gripping Beast. Probably other too.
I wonder whether there is a way to make late Byzantine cav starting from the Aventine Steppe Nobles? I imagine the Byzantines should be a little more regular looking, and I don't know whether there are byzantine style heads that would go on those figs....
It was the Seljuks they had as allies at Dyrrachium.
I'd like to add, that going on the majority of the soldiers from the Ospreys (which I own) the Crusader and Gripping beast ranges are looking like an excellent match.
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I popped over to your blog for a better view and it is a really lovely looking game :-* :-* :-*
If I was to be hyper critical I'd say that the i would have replaced the Gripping Beast Seljuk Turks with Perry Mini's Seljuk Heavy Cavalry , packs MA2, MA6-14 as the kontos was an anachronism by the time of Dyrrachium. Of course this is a very minor quibble- the game looks beautiful:)
Thank you very much 8)
I actually used Perry figurines from all of the sets listed. But the figures from GB, holding spears with two hands, look very beautiful. I couldn't get past them ;) lol
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Eureka miniatures have a range too, part of the 100 club, I painted around three hundred of them for a customer last year.
Should fit and exactly what you are after, options for five types of shields, four types of infantry, five types of cavalry with plenty of horse options too. Quite a complete range, only the vangarians are missing.
Painted samples here on my blog.
https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/search/label/Byzantine (https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/search/label/Byzantine)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DLhI2z2bx8w/XZwoSynQXFI/AAAAAAAAR5s/_KthvJ331-Uhv9vC7cxHuwV27XFqhbyLQCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h640/IMG_1411.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aS-MoG_pOGY/XZwoFig60HI/AAAAAAAAR5M/P3Ja6kIXe8Ujl7j4P9SbHWfHfus02gelgCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h474/IMG_1406.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wRjG5f4AqVE/XZwnzGohGUI/AAAAAAAAR4g/_svGmT0-h4sPj1HU7mgmXI2lbPaJTYoSwCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h468/IMG_1396.JPG)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-U2EofocCDR4/XZwpouqKqOI/AAAAAAAAR7A/hrVzjSormEoP07aAKF0IRWwELMbIxqe4wCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h480/IMG_1425.JPG)
Figures here
https://www.eurekamin.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Byzantine+&x=13&y=5 (https://www.eurekamin.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Byzantine+&x=13&y=5)
Cheers
Matt
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Not impugning the quality of the castings, but the Crusader and Eureka ranges appear to be based on Ian Heath's Byzantine Armies 886–1118 , with all the errors of a publication from 1979, due to an uncritical reliance on period art:
1) Lamellar doesn't open from the front, but from the sides.
2) Chest harnesses aka Varangian Bras (Ian Heath) are little thick and though it might've been adopted from the Persians, along with kaftans and turbans, the latter of Indian origin according to David Nicolle, it's possible that these are derived from those worn by centurions. There's the theory that the harness was intended as an aid for better fitting armor, but it doesn't hold water: higher ranking officers would have bespoke gear and soldiers of the tagmata and themata would purchase their own equipment, as I don't recall any surviving factories in the Notitia.
3) Pteruges may have existed, but wouldn't look so stiff on the carvings - more than likely, these are metal or organic splint armor.
Surprisingly, the Fire Forge Byzantine resins look like they're based on Dawson's Ospreys, while the styrene plastics and the infantry command are based on Ian Heath. The Perry Armenians, especially the armored ones, with slight tweaking could pass off as Byzantines described in the 10th Century manuals. Khurasan offers 10th/11th Century Byzantines, but they're blasphemous 15mm size!
Levantia: the Enduring Roman Empire(Byzantium) and its neighbours (http://www.levantia.com.au/)
‘Fit for the task’: equipment sizes and the transmission of military lore, sixth to tenth centuries (http://www.levantia.com.au/pdf/Dawson_Fit_for_the_Task.pdf)
Some have a romantic view of the themata considering them like national guard/territorial army, compared to the mercenary tagmata, and their decline being the reason for the loss of large chunks of Anatolia. The truth is they had more in common with the feudal levies and personal retinues of the feudal West, albeit somewhat disciplined at times, than the limitanei and comitatenses in the time of Justinian and Heraclius. This explains why the spate of manuals in the 10th Century emphasized the need to train prior to embarking on campaigns - the classical drill instructors, campidoctores and armaturae, had disappeared by the time of Leo VI. John Haldon's A Critical Commentary on The Taktika of Leo VI (Dumbarton Oaks Studies) (https://www.amazon.com/Critical-Commentary-Taktika-Dumbarton-Studies/dp/0884023915), a supplement to George T. Dennis' translation of The Taktika of Leo VI (https://www.amazon.com/Taktika-Leo-VI-Revised-Dumbarton/dp/088402394X/ref=pd_sbs_14_2/144-1259399-3001946?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=088402394X&pd_rd_r=2bb577fd-fdb6-4c38-a272-06e3c16097c1&pd_rd_w=KlGPr&pd_rd_wg=uagDs&pf_rd_p=52b7592c-2dc9-4ac6-84d4-4bda6360045e&pf_rd_r=5W56PYBA1Y4KP5FYTAB8&psc=1&refRID=5W56PYBA1Y4KP5FYTAB8), contains a chapter covering the armed forces at the beginning of the 10th Century, right before the reconquest period.
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With all that in mind, and no doubt this is very informative but I was talking about the post Tagmata/Themata period of transition and The Battle of Dyrrachium. ;)