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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Silent bob on November 06, 2019, 08:07:58 AM
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I’ve recently got back into wargaming after a sabbatical of a number of years, so I decided to get back into it with my son..... For various reasons –I no longer paint (mainly my eyes are shot and my paint’s dried up) so to kick start our (hopefully) first gaming project, I decided to sell some surplus stuff and get a small collection of figures pro-painted.
This is not a tale asking for sympathy (I’ve got Facebook for sympathy) but rather as a warning to others.
I vetted a number of painters and eventually picked the one that I got on best with via e-mail, sent the figures and payment off and waited and waited, very poor communication no updates – the usual things occurred – a family holiday put him back, a couple of orders came in and he was getting stressed, so I threw him a bone and said there’s no real rush for my stuff – don’t get stressed but a bit of communication please......
Still waiting 6 months down the line – and I am now resorting to the Small Claims Court to get my money and figures back.
I will not include the painters name on line (its not fair ion him, in case there are real reasons for the delay) but if anyone wants to get some figures painted, if you PM me I will let you have his name – just so your warned.
As I say there is probably a very good reason why he is ignoring my e-mails asking for a progress report (the main one being -"it takes me too much painting time to reply to e-mails" strange for someone whose work comes in by post with remote customers)
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As someone who earns his living from painting, it always saddens me to see things like this. This kind of things really makes lie more difficult for anyone involved, starting from those who do this as a profession: for many this is just a side job, undertaken during free time and this inevitably leads to delays, which lead to dissatisfied customers who cannot know who to trust anymore so, in the end, painting services as a whole are thought to be unreliable unless they are some south east Asia factory...
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I know it doesn't help you now, but when I get a commission I always order the figures myself and no payment is made until the customer has seen photos of the finished figures. I've always thought this the right way to do it, it's no cheaper either way it just saves problems like this. Even if I have major issues, illness etc, the customer hasn't lost money.
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Much like kickstarter, communication seems to be the key issue.
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There could be real reasons why this service has broken down and my main concern is the lack of communication
Wargaming painting services are largely run on trust – trust that the painter will do the work in a timely manner & that the work will be done to a suitable standard and also trust on the painters behalf that the customer makes payment & gives instructions as to the work – both of which I have fulfilled.
In 40 odd years of gaming I have always painted my own stuff - quite prolifically (probably why me eyes are shot!!) and this is the first time I have used a painting service. (I am using another chap for my 10mm stuff since this and its going just fine)
I'm not going to let it put me off - I/we have another project on the go, which we'll carry on with but with but find a different painter.
thanks
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It's an all too familiar story sadly, there are one or two 'painters' out there with a long history of taking the money up front and then ignoring all communication. One or two stains the whole industry though. There is no excuse for this behaviour and I do not sympathise with those who cite family emergencies, illness, martian invasion etc.. as excuses for not responding to a customer's enquiries. You enter into a contract based on trust when you accept a commission and if, for whatever reason you are unable to uphold your side of the agreement due to unforeseen misfortune (because stuff does happen, people suffer blows to their personal circumstances all the time) you should be honest, keep the customer informed and, if necessary, return the models. I have run way over my expected completion times, lost or broken parts of a customer's model in the past and it's embarrassing to have to admit it and take the hit, but TS, I had to man up and accept the consequences of my own mistakes. My bad fortune/misjudgement/issue should not be passed on to my customer (see above re: trust).
The advice I always give prospective customers (of all painting services, not just my own) -
1) Choose a reputable painter with plenty of online presence and if possible, personal recommendation. Not always easy of course and no guarantee of future good conduct, but it's a good start.
2) Never pay up front. I don't see the justification. If the painter has your models AND your money, you're holding no cards at all. As a professional painter of 20-odd years I have only once had to threaten a non-payer with selling their models to retrieve my fee, but it did work and got me my money. I send my customer photos of the completed models, check for their approval, make amendments if required, then ask for payment before posting. I don't like being paid up front anyway, because for me, the motivation of working towards payment helps me to get them done quicker.
3) Start with small orders to get an idea of who you're dealing with. If it goes tits up then, it's a minimal loss to you and you've learned a valuable lesson about that individual.
4) If you honestly think you're being given the runaround and your models have just been stolen, trust your judgement and name and shame, giving the bald facts about the case (leaving out personal attacks!). Bad service needs to be reported because honest feedback is important to all. If there's a valid reason for the problem, this gives the painter a chance to set the record straight in a public forum.
I hope you get your goodies back soon, painted or unpainted, and everything gets straightened out.
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The only person I paint for these days is our own Paleskin, and I have had some of his figures on my desk for well over 12 months. That is shocking, I know, and I do try to keep in contact with him to provide any updates and reasons why I am so inept.
This year I have had to deal with moving house, gaining a degree, increasingly busy day job and most recently Bob Junior having a stay in hospital after coming down with the Diabetes (because Autism just isn't enough!).
NONE of this is an excuse, and thankfully Paleskin is a proper gent and not narking at me to get things done. In order to make up for it though I will send batches back to him with no expectation of payment, and will go on record here to say that any more I can get done in future to finish this load are also gratis to apologise for my utter lack of time management skills.
I don't do this as a business, but if I did, I'd be bankrupt in about six months as even a feckless get like me can see its not a good model for making money...
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I know it doesn't help you now, but when I get a commission I always order the figures myself and no payment is made until the customer has seen photos of the finished figures. I've always thought this the right way to do it, it's no cheaper either way it just saves problems like this. Even if I have major issues, illness etc, the customer hasn't lost money.
Unfortunately I'm quite OCD about figures so I tend to pick and choose ones out a pack which fit in with my idea (plus I tend to get them from e-bay etc) and TBH the collecting and organising is part of the hobby for me but I can see how your method would work.
I've gotten myself some 28mm figures for a small Crimean Light Brigade collection, that I shall move on to after I've either got the current figures back or wrote them off.
Besides with my financial ineptitude - its better if I pay up front (it also stops my wife and kids getting the money)
For future reference does any one know of a good painter - who is reliable? (if so please PM me)
thanks
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Bob, applying the KISS Principle to your problem...
Have you thought of asking in these hallowed halls for a painter to have a pop at your figures. I've wheeled and dealed with several LAF members, buying and selling figures and on one occasion having some Hoplites painted for me. Not once have I crossed the path of a dodgy dealing wrong 'un!
Might be something worth thinking about?
:)
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Hi HF,
That is my next plan of action, I have had one or two PMs recommending people and I am looking into some leads.
I am trying to find the best middle ground - quality to price.
Many pro painters are far too good for what I want (teeth and eyeballs) - and (rightly) too expensive - for my wifes modest means but I shall keep going. I need someone who can paint to a good wargames standard but not too fiddly.....
Thanks
SB
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I need someone who can paint to a good wargames standard but not too fiddly.....
Thanks
SB
Bob, these were painted for me by a fellow LAF member. sadly, I can't tell you his rates as they were painted as part of a deal for skeletons of the 'Cursed Legion'!
::)
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I've painted for folks as part of a trade before. I'd never commit to painting as a full time thing as I know my motivation can wane and painting loads of things you don't like isn't easy in the first place.
I did try as a kid, I say kid, I was 16/17. It can be wonderful, I had some great customers, even though I only ever had around ten. I also had some very difficult ones. That said, it is much easier now in that there are much more expansive paint ranges and folks can pick out colours that they might like.
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Bob, these were painted for me by a fellow LAF member. sadly, I can't tell you his rates as they were painted as part of a deal for skeletons of the 'Cursed Legion'!
They look quite nice, pity I have no spare skeletons.......
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Hi
Just an update - the painter has agreed to return my figures and refund my money. He is undercoating any figures he has painted/part painted.
Hopefully it should be this week, so at least it is a kind of closure and I can either abandon the project or find another painter.
Cheers
SB
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That's good news, nothing lost except time then.
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That's good news, nothing lost except time then.
Yup only time....6 months of waiting in anticipation, planning and scheming, trying to keep a 10 year old 'interested' in all the buildings we have made......
I'm not sure if, as human beings we have anything as valuable as time.....
I really must get out more.......
Cheers
SB
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LAF is being a bit slow tonight - I tried to post this 2 or 3 times, then they appear all at one..... :)
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Hi,
Figures & money were supposed to be returned last week......(he was undercoating them to return them to me) no sign.....two ignored e-mails...
So far the whole sorry effort has been delayed by :-
hold-up in the previous order
two more commissions coming in at the same time
family holiday
medical condition (stress caused by overwork - obviously not my Alamo stuff)
and now a family funeral
If nothing else has come from this farce, at least I have found a couple of good painters for my 28's and 10/15's figures (just need my figures back and a refund).
I am taking suggestions for the next cause of delay/failure to show......
Ta
SB
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Aliens
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZqfxoCYfxw
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Aliens
Yes I did think, I had not had that one as yet but with the BBC War of the Worlds - it might be a bit obvious....my money is on 'disruptive weather'
I am pursuing this in the Small Claims Court on 25th November (when I can afford the up front fee),so hopefully it will bring it all to an end - either that or blow another £25 in the effort....
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Indeed. Just this spring i decided it was time to find someone to paint the last miniatures for my Vietnam project. The reason is that my eyes are older (like the rest) and i really need to spend time on terrain.
The first one i came into contact with (not via LAF) send me photos (after i asked him for visual examples of his work) that somehow looked very familiar. So i did a search on the www. And yes there they were on a website from an American pro-painter. When confronted with that info he acted very immature and i said goodbye.
The second one i found was on FB and i send that small batch of the Nam-project miniatures to him. It took awhile. About 4 months but the result is very good and i am very pleased with them. And his prices are really okay. For me the lack of communication was the worst part. It was a valuable lesson learned.
In the meantime i found another painter who does it purely out of hobby-enjoyment. Very good communicator and he's quite fast. 15 miniatures in a (very) little over a month. He paints a fair tabletop standard at a very reasonable price. Quite happy with that and my second commission is now on his table.
Just yesterday i found another painter via FB. Really professional and more costly. Nothing happened here as i need to think about it.
What funny is about all this that i put out a thread here on LAF asking for a miniaturepainter and suprisingly there was very little response. ;-)
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Indeed. Just this spring i decided it was time to find someone to paint the last miniatures for my Vietnam project. The reason is that my eyes are older (like the rest) and i really need to spend time on terrain.
The first one i came into contact with (not via LAF) send me photos (after i asked him for visual examples of his work) that somehow looked very familiar. So i did a search on the www. And yes there they were on a website from an American pro-painter. When confronted with that info he acted very immature and i said goodbye.
The second one i found was on FB and i send that small batch of the Nam-project miniatures to him. It took awhile. About 4 months but the result is very good and i am very pleased with them. And his prices are really okay. For me the lack of communication was the worst part. It was a valuable lesson learned.
In the meantime i found another painter who does it purely out of hobby-enjoyment. Very good communicator and he's quite fast. 15 miniatures in a (very) little over a month. He paints a fair tabletop standard at a very reasonable price. Quite happy with that and my second commission is now on his table.
Just yesterday i found another painter via FB. Really professional and more costly. Nothing happened here as i need to think about it.
What funny is about all this that i put out a thread here on LAF asking for a miniaturepainter and suprisingly there was very little response. ;-)
You are telling so interestingly.
Please show please the work of the artists you talked about. I live in Russia and in spite of my old eyes I have to do everything myself. I really want to see the good work of the artist, so that I try to be a good artist.
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@Khmorg,
I can recommend Ilya at http://littlegreenstudio.me/, he's a Russian miniature painter that I have used a few times. He's very good reasonable prices and quite a decent time :) I'm a very happy customer of his!
Best,
LS
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Well, finally got refund out of him but he has not returned the lead as yet........
Thanks
SB
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I hate reading these threads. This is how I make my living and as somebody else mentioned this is a business run mainly on trust. Luckily, I've been doing this for a while so I don't have the issues finding work like I did when I first started. Now the problem is that the wait list is too long for some folks. There are only so many hours in a day.
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I know what you mean a Jay. Started up my figure painting business this year, concentrating on painting a good standard of Wargame figure for a competitive price.
Work has been pretty consistent, but I always try to communicate with my customers and let them know what sort of timescales I am working to.
I always try and finish each commission before starting the next one. Common sense really.
I had a computer issue during the year which meant I didn’t receive a couple of commission enquires and felt mortified that I had let people down. Thankfully that has now been sorted.
I hope you get your figures back soon Silent bob and it hasn’t scarred you too much. There are some good painters out there, more than happy to give a good service.
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Well, finally got refund out of him but he has not returned the lead as yet........
Thanks
SB
I'd recommend you keep the claim going for the cost of the mins, or you're running the risk of this going on forever because they reckon they've done what they need to do to get you off their back.
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Yeah thanks Cubs
I have emailed him again today to give him one more chance to explain himself.
The cost of the lead is about £40-£50 but it has come down to the principle now.
I have gone from thinking the guy is just unlucky & slightly incompetent to believing he is crooked.
I can't figure out why he wants to keep the lead (assuming he still has it)
The only reason I have not put his name up 'in lights' is the fact that maybe his is the former and is going through a bad patch......
Thanks for your help
SB
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Things are moving a pace now.......
He's communicated with me......mainly to say "God help the next painter who deals with me" and to refund me - he has had to "paint a job that pays" so he has not had time to spray undercoat the figures to send them back - so he must have done some work on them over the last six months (I did offer to pay for any completed figures)
I can't really understand how it has suddenly become my fault.....
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I was once shafted by a bloke who claimed he'd been wrongly arrested for armed robbery so couldn't provide the toys I'd paid for. Turns out it wasn't a wrongful arrest and he got some decent shovel...
which still didn't get me my models!!!
:-X
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That has got to be the best excuse/reason ever.......
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I can't really understand how it has suddenly become my fault.....
Classic re-direction, if its not your fault it has to be his, but it cannot be his fault because he does not see anything wrong with his behavior.
To be fair it sounds more like he needs someone else to pay him so he can pay you.
I feel sorry for his next "customer" to!
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Things are moving a pace now.......
He's communicated with me......mainly to say "God help the next painter who deals with me" and to refund me - he has had to "paint a job that pays" so he has not had time to spray undercoat the figures to send them back - so he must have done some work on them over the last six months (I did offer to pay for any completed figures)
I can't really understand how it has suddenly become my fault.....
I mean, really. Why COULDN'T you just wait until he decided to maybe eventually get around to painting these things? I mean, the nerve!
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Woohooo just to let you know my figures have finally turned up......some have seen better days but its not worth worrying about, they are only toys.
Ta
SB
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Aaand relax. Just in time for Christmas as well.