Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Goliad on November 08, 2019, 08:22:11 PM
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After a long road to completing Indochine figures and terrain I finally set up a table and got the platoons out for Chain of Command using some of the rules from the unofficial Vietnam variant available online. It's unusual for me to complete a project so decided to post pics to mark the occasion. Pics are from the second of two games played. The first was a first run through of the rules but was not that satisfying. Despite having a nice table set up all the sections and teams ended up in a 2 foot square (Do others find this is this a thing with CoC? Even some of the good Youtube game postings look crammed at times.)
The second game ended up more expansive and interesting. After a drop The Foreign Legion Paras had pushed out their perimeter and were now defending against a Viet Minh probe. The two sides were of real contrast - The FFL were Elite and aggressive; the Viet Minh were from a Green provincial battalion but had some interesting "local knowledge" type support options from the Vietnam CoC variant (moveable deployment point, tougher ambush options) plus an extra section and mortar support.
Pics follow
The Viet Minh just had to get one section or team off the French side of the table. The FFL had had the time to mine the village flank but the Viet Minh had decided to push on the paddy field flank with the idea for a strong demonstration against the village and a reserve to drive through where opportunity presented itself. The French were well positioned with a deployment point in the abandoned hut in the rice fields and in the village centre to allow feeding of forces to crisis areas.
The Viet Minh came on but were cautious and got bogged down in an unwinnable firefight against the FFL in the paddies. A mortar team was able to deploy and inflict some casualties on the paras but otherwise the French seemed to have the situation at hand.
At this stage I guess a Commissar had some inspirational words for the Viet Minh commander who decided that "green" troops or not the fight was going to be taken to the enemy. A local tunnel was used to move a deployment up and another section deployed in the fields that immediately went "over the top" on attack while a senior commander deployed, took shock off the stalled section and got them moving down the flank as their comrades took the brunt of FFL fire in the fields. Another Viet Minh section deployed against the village and went on attack to stop the French moving troops across to flank the paddy attack. The mortar proved very effective in keeping casualties ticking over on the French. The Viet Minh commander saw a gap with the FFL now generally engaged to push his last section up the road.
The Viet Minh in the paddies were getting mown down - losing dead but not taking much shock. The senior commander was able to keep any shock off and keep the troops moving. A Chain of Command dice was used to interrupt the French and a Viet Minh end run down the flank looked like it had legs to get through.
But the FFL manged to use their own CoC dice and block this attack - just. The final chance for the Viet Minh was the road attack. But again the FFL were able to get a small rifle grenade team across to block the attack and in a vicious hand to hand the FFL were wiped out but (mostly)did the same to the Viet Minh. The French had again caused casualties but not much shock - and incredibly the Viet Minh Junior commander had survived the melee. Viet Minh force morale was about to break so this junior commander shook himself off and went for the treeline behind the village, dodging bullets. The French senior commander had deployed with his command section as a reserve in case the Viet Minh had broken through and charged the lone NCO.
The Viet Minh NCO was outnumbered and outgunned but in his final sacrifice inflicted a casualty on the French that fell on the FFL Senior Commander, who died as the Viet Minh attack was finally stopped.
The French Force Morale was at 8 at the end of the game so in rule terms they were hardy sweating but they had been stretched and the Viet Minh had had chances for victory. It was an enjoyable game and seemed right in how it played out. Still I'm not quite sure I'm a 100% CoC convert yet. I'll need to play some more.
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Pictures not showing up for me :'(
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Me neither.
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Yup, no pictures for me either. Except for the last one, which looks amazing from the layout. So it's a shame the rest is gone. :'(
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I can see the pictures and they look great. I’ve not yet played CoC, but the Lardy You Tube games never look cramped to me...
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Hi - the game looks great. Particularly love the look on your Viet Minh.
By any chance do you have a link to the variant? (and Force list?) I’m currently part way into a French Indo-China project but haven’t yet settled on a rule set - CofC seem ideal!
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Wow! Fantastic looking table!
Your paddies are great and your mix of trees and scrub is spot on. Really good ensemble that makes for a very atmospheric setting. Any chance of a close up on one of your big trees, are they scratch made?
And is that a battle at / cloth? If so which one please?
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That's a really great looking set up!
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Great Report, and Great pictures.
I am also interested in the Vietminh and French force list for Indochina COC. :D
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Sweet looking set up.
Wonderful table.
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The photographs were well worth the wait.
That is a nice looking table.
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Thanks for the comments everyone. The terrain's been an effort. Always liked painting minis but terrain was always a hodge podge. Decided to make a real effort on terrain so even if it was not great it was my own and would look relatively cohesive!
The trees are 3d print trunks (free site Thingiverse has some files of groups of trees) with expanding diy filler foam to make the canopy (exaggerated so when you look down the wooded area looks bigger). I then covered with various model railroad leaf-mat products. Pic below.
In answer the cloth question - It's a Cigar Box plush mat. I had a hand made fur mat that I used for the first game that looked great but found the individual based figures often would not sit flat, tip over etc. (so will have to limit use to big base ancients ...) so switched to the cigar box mat Grass Land mat.
I'll do a follow up on my forces - basically I use "late war" French and Viet Minh TOEs and at the moment mix and match supports to match my figures! So no nice formatted CoC list.
For the Viet Minh supports I do use a lot of ideas from the unofficial CoC Viet Nam supplement at link below.
https://carportgaming.blogspot.com/2019/09/on-road-again.html (https://carportgaming.blogspot.com/2019/09/on-road-again.html)
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Thanks
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All looks very nice. Well done.
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Just have to second the comments above, it's a fantastic looking table. And do persevere with CoC. I haven't played the later variant, but every time I play WWII it gives a brilliant game and an engaging narrative. So much so, that in the last year, I have added (I think), another 4 platoons to my CoC forces.
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From my (limited) experience of CofC I am currently thinking it’s the way I’ll go for French Indochina. I find the rules simple, elegant and conveying the right “feel” for mid C20th warfare in 28mm games. The only obstacle I’m hitting is a lack of suitable Force lists (which are quite important, I feel, with these rules).
Ultimately I’ll sit down and write my own (and the unofficial Vietnam supplement referred to in various threads here is really useful! Thanks all!) but I currently feel hampered by a) my lack of real in depth knowledge of the rules and b) I don’t think I know the period well enough yet. Has anyone dealt with this yet for their own games and, if so, what did they come up with? (i.e. has anyone any ideas they are willing to share that I can start from?).
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Hi Sparrow.
Just so happens I have been looking at knocking up some 1954 French and Viet Minh lists.
I am a little stuck on the French Para platoon structure if anyone has some info. I will try andpost some lists on my blog http://carportgaming.blogspot.com in the next few weeks.
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Why do you think Chain of Command works for Indochina? I am looking for a skirmish rule set for Vietnam (1960s) and several people suggested COC but I have strong doubts over its suitability, yours is one of the few game I have seen set outside WW2. I game Indochina in 20mm with Crossfire but fancy something individual based 1:1 for the later war.
Looking at the rules and various reviews/AARs the patrol phase seems to force creation of a "meeting engagement". How do you deal with the Vietminh wanting to remain stationary and hidden?
With the terrain density for Vietnam how do you get any manoeuvre after the patrol phase? It seems to me that deployment is always going to be 12" apart as the French patrol counters will never have to move back far to get into cover. So the game is a straight up dice roll off?
For a setting such as Vietnam how do you find COC not having any spotting rules works?
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Hi Sparrow.
Just so happens I have been looking at knocking up some 1954 French and Viet Minh lists.
I am a little stuck on the French Para platoon structure if anyone has some info. I will try andpost some lists on my blog http://carportgaming.blogspot.com in the next few weeks.
Here is a good link for everything French Indochina war. Gots TO&Es for Viet-Minh and french forces.
http://indochine54.free.fr/
This is a link to the guys who blog original commissioned the FIC war range for Empress.
This page in particular shows a quick company and platoon snap shot.
http://dienbienphuredstarminiatures.blogspot.com/2013/06/books-french-paras-in-indochina-1945.html?m=0
If you have the time. Check out the rest of thr blog. Lots of good snapshots, and information to be found.
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Hi Sparrow.
Just so happens I have been looking at knocking up some 1954 French and Viet Minh lists.
I am a little stuck on the French Para platoon structure if anyone has some info. I will try andpost some lists on my blog http://carportgaming.blogspot.com in the next few weeks.
Cheer! I’ve been well impressed with all the content on your web site. Will watch with interest!
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Sorry, this is the page with the company/platoon to&e. :D
http://dienbienphuredstarminiatures.blogspot.com/2013/05/to-for-1953-1954-french-para-company.html?m=0
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Hi robh,
"Why do you think Chain of Command works for Indochina?"
Given COC is a platoon based tactical game the mechanics translate quite well to most periods with some minor adjustments.
Looking at the rules and various reviews/AARs the patrol phase seems to force creation of a "meeting engagement". How do you deal with the Vietminh wanting to remain stationary and hidden?
Squads can deploy from any jump off point. There are also ambush rules as well as force specific rules that can account for this. There are also a range of different scenarios which have differing objectives.
With the terrain density for Vietnam how do you get any manoeuvre after the patrol phase? It seems to me that deployment is always going to be 12" apart as the French patrol counters will never have to move back far to get into cover. So the game is a straight up dice roll off?
Jump off points can be deployed further. For example the Viet Minh can push hard in the patrol phase then deploy deeper. The VC Local Knowledge support option also allows for a jump off point to be moved later. In terrain a squad can easily become isolated. Ambush rules cab also catch out a force.
How do you find COC not having any spotting rules works?
Because you deploy when you choose this creates it's own spotting situation so an attacker is best served to recon an area. A variable roll is also used for site in dense terrain.
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For my para TOE I used the references found on this page and the 1954 TOE in particular:
http://1project2far.blogspot.com/p/indochina-war-ressources.html (http://1project2far.blogspot.com/p/indochina-war-ressources.html)
There was a link (which I can't find now) to a US military analysis of the Indochina war which reflected what's in the 1954 TOE. Apparently by late in the war the loss of experienced NCOs was leading to the fielding of 2 section platoons. "Fire and movement" was elevated to the platoon level rather than the section. The para TOE I used had 1 x fire section of 12 (2 x LMG teams, rifles, garands, carbines); 1 x maneuver section of 15 (10 x SMGs (it's in the TOE!), a couple rifles and carbines); 1 x rifle grenade team of 3 and a command group of LT, adjutant, and 3 soldiers (one looks like he was equipped as a marksman with a scoped rifle). All up that's 35 in the platoon. I really don't know how often a platoon would have been fielded like this but it sure makes it a fun challenge to coordinate your sections!
I decided to use the "Team Leader" rule in the Vietnam variant for each of the section teams so there is a Junior leader plus 2 x Team Leaders. I wondered too about using a superior Junior Leader and ditching the Team Leads. My platoon is mixed too - so French and locally recruited soldiers. In some battalions the local recruits and French were segregated and in others they seemed to have been integrated at the platoon and section level.
I imagine in the field there was a bit of variation in platoon structures - take your pick of 3 x 15; 3 x 10 or the 2 section platoon!
I will probably stick with CoC. Local gamers seem to be mostly bolt action (not keen) or CoC. CoC is quite good for solo play as well. I have since tried FNG, which was fun. Indochina certainly is an interesting shoulder period - you can either go with WW2 rules or modern rules.
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@cocky30, thanks for your thoughts on the rules
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Indeed. Tantastic setup and miniatures. Thanks for sharing. :-)
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@c0cky30 and @Goliad …. Sorry for a bit of thread necromancy 🧟♂️ but I wanted to thank you for the work you put in on DMZ and the Indochina addition. It has been helpful to have found this thread and wonder if any of the original posters have new information or opinions to add.
Beautiful table by the way Goliad.
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Missed this so well done for resurrecting.
Great looking game as well :-*
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Missed this so well done for resurrecting.
Great looking game as well :-*
Yeah, I missed it too. Chalk it up to my brilliant powers of observation.... ::)
Anyway, well done. Great minis and terrain!
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Looks excellent! Your trees look great, too. Great compromise with purchased and DIY!
Mike Demana