Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Easy E on November 25, 2019, 03:05:42 PM
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Greetings All,
You may know that I am the author of Osprey's Men of Bronze game in the Osprey Wargame Series of games.
(https://ospreypublishing.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/958def80b7ce809d46640f86aa46835c/9/7/9781472832603_10.jpg)
After that experience, I have contracted with Osprey to write two new books for the series. One of those books will be an expansion of the Men of Bronze format into a different era of Ancient battle. This time, I am going to be looking at the Wars of the Roman Republic.
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/random-official-news-from-blood-and.html
I am particularly excited to cover these period for a variety of reasons. One of which is that this will allow me to expand into a variety of fighting styles in the Mediterranean region. Fighting styles from Roman legions, Macedonian Phalanxes, Greek Phalanxes, Cavalry armies, Warband combat, and more! This is even a broader range of fighting styles and combat than Men of Bronze could hold!
Here are some of the design goals:
1. Scale, mini and basing agnostic
2. Lot's of decision making
3. Big battles with small miniature counts
5. Expand and build on the Men of Bronze model
7. Somewhat accurate historical outcomes based on my fallible understanding of Ancient combat
8. Make it fun!
I need to have the rules to Osprey by June of 2020, and as such I have tentatively finished a draft and started playtesting. I will catalog the playtesting I complete in this thread to give you a feel for the rules, some of the lists involved, army sizes, and game play. This should give you a good feel for the game and see if it is something you are interested in.
Anyway, our first battle is a Polybian Legion vs. Gauls. A classic match-up.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gJqvAqlgFuo/XaijyBXrlOI/AAAAAAAAHiI/FtASplVK_fABsJ060HPIGEv7yVb7PhmswCKgBGAsYHg/s320/IMG_4213.JPG)
Sadly, I do not have armies for all of the possible opponents, so my paper templates will have to do for now.
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/11/battle-report-wars-of-republic-romans.html
Thanks for your interest. More to come as it develops.
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As part of this project, I scoured the Net for any and all feedback I could find about Men of Bronze in order to make improvements and updates in this book. I am using the same base engine, but tweaking it to capture the right "feel" for the different fighting styles.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HkerPPQv_jg/XP2eqNWvxYI/AAAAAAAAGe4/GzTlZWyvQYkLx-uHUttLgidQH1Qu06OSgCKgBGAs/s320/IMG_2365.jpg)
Here are some feedback items I have found and am tackling:
1. Clarifying the Base Widths system
2. Clarifying multi-based units
3. Reducing abstraction with supporting units
4. Clarifying when Melee is resolved
Obviously, I will miss some people's favorite battles, armies, or groups but I will do my best on that front. The scary thing about writing Ancients rules is that someone always knows way more about the subject than you!
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So, I managed to get another Playtest game in....
Hamilcar surveyed the dusty plains beyond. His army of Libyans, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians were at the edge of their fertile lands. The furthest their irrigation channels reached. Beyond was the wilder lands of the Numidians. They had dared to resist the will of Baal, and now he was sent to show them the error of their ways. From Libya he had brought his heavy chariots, each pulled by four powerful steads. He had also come with loyal North African tributary soldiers and his fellow citizens to act as the backbone of the force.
Across the dusty plains were the barbarous Numidians. He could see that they had brought their own
horseman to the fight. In addition, he could see the white of goose feathers on the backs of their
soldiers. That meant archers would be present, and they most likely out-numbered and out-ranged his own missile troops. Speed would be the key to closing the distance, but the Numidians lighter horseman could slow him up. Perhaps Baal had been watching over him when the dry air from the ocean blew across the fields and kicked up dust. It would help screen his troops from the enemy archers.
Today’s battle will be using my test Wars of the Republic rules and features a battle between the rising power of Carthage in North Africa versus the army of the neighboring kingdom of Numidia. In actuality, we have very little records that such a clash happened, but it only makes logical sense that as Carthage’s power grew, there would be tension before Numidia became a client state. No real documents survive from Carthage to discuss their early history and we are left mostly with speculation from archeology and what records the Romans left us.
The big decision is to determine which army lists to use for such a hypothetical clash. If we place the
battle earlier in time, we can use the Early Republic Carthage list that aligns with the wars in Sicily and the Numidian list there. If we want a later battle, closer to the time of the Punic Wars we could use the Pre-Xanthippus Reforms army list and the Jugartha list for the Numidians. The main difference between the lists is the use of Hoplites and Heavy Cavalry by the Carthaginians, and the access to Elephants for both sides.
I decide to place the battle in a very early time frame for Carthage and the Numidians, before Carthage’s interference in Sicily. This would put the battle early in Carthage’s rise to power and before it extensively used mercenaries. Essentially, it is a rising city-state against a rival regional tribal power.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rMi_LP1RII4/XgEAxVV75rI/AAAAAAAAH6A/8weuQ0WLw4U-C6N_X1Annd43dyEGqI2uACKgBGAsYHg/s320/F31BB424-D558-47EA-9323-7FD8D14D4D7A.jpeg)
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2020/01/battle-report-wars-of-republic.html
For those interested, the Manuscript is due back to Osprey by November..... so I need to get moving on this!
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Carthage against Numidians... very Cool !
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Thank you for sharing this.
Just to clarify, your earlier post stated June, the latter one November?
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Yes, I thought it was going to be June, but when the dust settled I have until November to get the Manuscript in. I do not expect to see a release until mid-year 2021.
I will keep updating as the dates evolve. I know an artist has all ready started working on the new cover too.
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Greetings.
I have been working away diligently on the manuscript for this, and have broken the period down into the following sub-categories for army list and unit organization. I would love to get your thoughts on if this is the right division or if I am missing something.
Early Republic- ER
This is mostly the time where Rome was still fighting wars to solidify control over Italy
- Kingdom of Rome
- Early Roman Republic
- Triplex Acies (Manipular Legion)
- Carthaginians
- Etruscans
- Syracusan/Sicilian Greek
- Numidians
- Samnites
- Magna Graecia
- Latin League
- Italic Tribes
- Rival City-States
Punic Wars
The name kind of says it all, the period of the Punic Wars and the initial expansions out of Italy.
- Triplex Acies
- Mamertines
- Syracuse/Sicilian Greek
- Pre-Xanthipuus Carthaginians
- Punic War Carthaginians
- Iberians
- Mercenary Revolt Army
Wars Against the Successors
Again, the Roman Republic is pushing out of their boundaries and facing off against the Successor States
- King Pyrrhus of Epirus
- Macedonia
- Ptolemaic Egypt
- Seleucids
- Satrapy/Minor State
- Jugartha
Slave Revolts
The famous Servile Wars as made popular in book and film.....
- Sicilian Slave Revolt
- Early Spartacus
- Gallic/Germanic Slave Army (Crixus, Gannicus, etc)
- Late Spartacus Army
- Praetor/Quaestor Army
- Italian Consular Army
- Crassus
- Garrison Force
End of the Republic
The time of the Civil Wars and the End of the Republic
- Roman Marian Legion
- Pompey Magnus
- Caesar
- Pontus
- Armenia
- Parthians
Edge of Civilization
The various barbarian tribes and factions around the edge of the Republic
- Gauls/Celts/Germans/Thracians
- Illyrians/Galatians/Thracians
- Cilician Pirates
- Scythians/Steppe Nomads
- Tribes of the Mediterranean (Sicels, Corsicans, etc)
I feel like there maybe way to many army lists and some overlap in design may exist. However, I turn to you, the experts on this subject to let me know if you think I am on the right track, am missing something obvious, or that I should consolidate this list as it is too long.
Your thoughts?
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That is an extensive list !!
Do you think you can fit them ?
It looks good !
Will you include scenarios for some inconic battlea ?
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Oh yes, I have the following ones on my list:
Lake Regillus- 509 BCE
Sentinum- 295 BCE
Heraclea- 280 BCE
Agrigentum- 261 BCE
Magnesia- 190 BCE
Cannae- 216 BCE
Mount Vesusvius- 73 BCE
Pharsalus- 48 BCE
Thapsus- 46 BCE
They might not all make the cut, but that is the plan right now......
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very nice selection ...
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I have a very stupid question, that I can hope someone can point me towards the answer.
I am not 100% sure if the Pontic army used elephants in their line of battle. Could someone point me to a primary or secondary source to help me understand this issue?
Thanks in advance.....
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I have a very stupid question, that I can hope someone can point me towards the answer.
I am not 100% sure if the Pontic army used elephants in their line of battle. Could someone point me to a primary or secondary source to help me understand this issue?
Thanks in advance.....
There's no mention of elephants in the accounts of Sulla's battles vs Mithridates (in Plutarch) but beyond that I don't know...
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Yes, I am not finding any either.
Some army lists seem to have Elephants in the Pontic army probably because it is a standard Hellenistic army trait, especially from the East. However, I am not finding any evidence to support that decision. I just wanted to double check.
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Yes, I am not finding any either.
Some army lists seem to have Elephants in the Pontic army probably because it is a standard Hellenistic army trait, especially from the East. However, I am not finding any evidence to support that decision. I just wanted to double check.
Keep them out then, maybe? Makes Pontic armies a bit different from the other Hellenistic ones... I'd never heard of elephants in Pontic armies but then all I know is the Mithridates era.
Are you doing a range of options for the earlier phalanx-based Pontic forces and those later ones based on imitation legionaries, etc...?
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I have a verrry minor interest in the Punic Wars so I am a little excited about following this. I feel I should buy Men of Bronze just to support you Easy E as it seems like we have been "internet acquaintances" for many years. :D
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I have bought it and it seems to be a good simple system to play large battles.
I like complex games for large battles such as Fields of Glory and War & Conquest, but sometimes you don't have the time.. sometimes you want a system that allows you to play Cannae quickly in a short afternoon... Men of Bronze fills that space and it well explained despite the restrictions in size of the blue books...
And hey.. they are very accessible so I think for anyone that likes ancients it is a great addition...
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I have a verrry minor interest in the Punic Wars so I am a little excited about following this. I feel I should buy Men of Bronze just to support you Easy E as it seems like we have been "internet acquaintances" for many years. :D
If you did pick up a copy, I would appreciate it. You can find it for very reasonable prices at your favorite online retailer. :)
I can not believe how long I have been active on Wargame Boards. Portent (RIP) from so long ago. I was looking at a few threads on Warseer and saw they were over a decade old in some cases. Unreal that I have been doing this since 1985.... that's like..... 35 years now? Ouch. I am old!
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A Draft of the rules went to Osprey to begin the process of editing. Only 10-15 more drafts to go until it is done! lol lol lol
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A Draft of the rules went to Osprey to begin the process of editing. Only 10-15 more drafts to go until it is done! lol lol lol
Try not to go crazy. o_o
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Anabasis of the Seleucids
The Seleucid Empire was founded by the successor’s of Alexander the Great. These successors fought a series of wars with each other for control of his empire. Eventually, the Successors and their children were able to establish their own stable empires. All though smaller than that of Alexander, they were regional power players.
The Seleucid Empire covered much of the Middle East and Eastern parts of the known Ancient world. They were a major player in the Hellenization of the Near East. Their main power base was in Syria but their empire extended into the East and even came up against the Mauryan Empire of India.
When Antiochus the III came to power, he went eastward and restored various vassal states back under Seleucid control. This included Parthia and Greco-Bactria. During this process, Antiochus defeated the leader of a Greco-Bactrian king named Euthydemus at the battle of Arius. Interestingly, this man was also Greek and previously aligned with the Seleucids.
After the Battle of Arius, the Bactrians retreated back to their capital. Antiochus III put the city under siege for three years before they came to a negotiated truce.
Today’s battle will be using the Wars of the Republic rules, but again I am using the lists creatively to simulate other ancient combat to test what they can do. Today will be the Seleucid successor list vs. the Lesser Satrapy list to represent the Bactrians. We will be using a Scout the Area scenario to represent the advanced forces of both armies scouting out the geography.
Forces
Seleucids
1 Heavy Cavalry
1 Bronze Shields- General
1 White Shields
1 Agema
Greco-Bactrians
1 Heavy Cavalry Cataphracts- General
1 Bronze Shields
2 Light Infantry
1 Archers
Seleucids will have 5 Commander’s Gaze, while the Bactrians will have 6
Mission
The Secure the Area scenario has 6 tokens scattered across the board, and is set-up by the defenders after terrain is set-up. As a unit puts a token into their Zone of Control, they have scouted the terrain there and can put the token on their side of the board. The side that uncovers the most tokens wins OR if they can force the enemy to collapse in 8 turns.
Set-up
Today’s game is using 1 inch as an MU, and is being played on a 72 by 48 MU board.
For terrain, we used the terrain placement rules straight from the rule book. The Seleucids got to place terrain first. In the center terrain on their side of the board a small wall was placed towards the left corner. The Satrapy matched it on the opposite side with a grove of trees in the forward right corner. This left the center a bit congested. On the left corner in the Satrapy's side of the board the Seleucids placed a 1 level rocky hill in the center of it. On the Satrapy's left flank grid space they placed another rocky, one level hill towards the front of it, again blocking up the center of the board. The Seleucids placed a wall on their right flank grid space to act as a defensive location for the flank. Finally, on the Seleucid left flank the Satrapy placed a small rock hill in the center of the grid space.
The Exploration tokens were then placed in on these terrain pieces. The battlefield was somewhat congested in the center of the board, and that would make capturing objectives there a bloody pushing match. The Seleucid Phalanxes liked there chances there.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KS1vppDRK8E/XqcIRlqiDYI/AAAAAAAAI0Q/PRNj5iI9nxQSztCO6DsIFcXIZz0vtbpcQCPcBGAsYHg/s320/IMG_4561.JPG)
For Deployment, the Seleucids were the attackers and began to deploy first. This was an alternate deployment process so the Defenders could react to where the Attackers were located. Interestingly, the Seleucids decided to put their Phalanxes in the center, across from the enemy light infantry. The Greco-Bactrian Phalanx and Archers were on the right, and facing the Agema. The Cavalry forces were facing each other on the left flank. Some interesting match-ups.
Most of these two armies have miniatures EXCEPT the cataphracts are paper templates! Boo! Hiss!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AkalEM4aMNs/XqcIVSknuUI/AAAAAAAAI0U/de5-MA8OyQIOVKYzY7_ySjMQiexhmMAiwCPcBGAsYHg/s320/IMG_4560.JPG)
Let's see how things turned out....
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2020/05/battle-report-wars-of-republic-anabasis.html
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I have a very stupid question, that I can hope someone can point me towards the answer.
I am not 100% sure if the Pontic army used elephants in their line of battle. Could someone point me to a primary or secondary source to help me understand this issue?
Thanks in advance.....
Nope. No elephants in Pontic armies. Pontus used scythed chariots as their wonder weapons. The Parthian empire sufficiently cut off access to Asian elephants to the west.
Romans used elephants by way of Numidia in the Macedonian and Syrian and Celt Iberian wars, but did not use them against Mithridates VI.
Scullard is still the place to go for elephants:
https://www.amazon.com/Elephant-Greek-Roman-World-Aspects/dp/0801409314
Easily found in university libraries.
Kistler has lots of useful information mixed with some less than accurate stuff:
https://www.amazon.com/War-Elephants-John-M-Kistler/dp/0803260040#customerReviews
The Osprey has nice Peter Dennis images:
https://www.amazon.com/War-Elephants-John-M-Kistler/dp/0803260040#customerReviews
(Sadly some of it seems awfully close to Kistler's text).
I cannot think of a rules set that has Pontics with elephants.
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Nope. No elephants in Pontic armies. Pontus used scythed chariots as their wonder weapons. The Parthian empire sufficiently cut off access to Asian elephants to the west.
Romans used elephants by way of Numidia in the Macedonian and Syrian and Celt Iberian wars, but did not use them against Mithridates VI.
Scullard is still the place to go for elephants:
https://www.amazon.com/Elephant-Greek-Roman-World-Aspects/dp/0801409314
Easily found in university libraries.
Kistler has lots of useful information mixed with some less than accurate stuff:
https://www.amazon.com/War-Elephants-John-M-Kistler/dp/0803260040#customerReviews
The Osprey has nice Peter Dennis images:
https://www.amazon.com/War-Elephants-John-M-Kistler/dp/0803260040#customerReviews
(Sadly some of it seems awfully close to Kistler's text).
I cannot think of a rules set that has Pontics with elephants.
Great information! Thank you.
That is one of the best and worst things about trying to design rules for ancients..... someone always knows way more than you on the subject! Best because you can get great information and assistance, worst because it is very easy to make yourself look like a fool!
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The best place to start is by joining the Society of Ancients where you can buy a CD of forty years of articles on pertinent subject matter.
Over the eons ancient army lists builders start here, because these are vetted by much rich crowd sourced and academic research, and then they branch out:
https://www.amazon.com/D-B-M-LISTS-DEBELLIS-MULTITUDINIS-WARGAMES/dp/B003UHATSS
Or via Scribd:
https://www.scribd.com/document/37195050/WRG-DBM-de-Bellis-Multitudinis-Army-Book-2-500BC-to-476AD-2nd-Edition
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Things are starting to get real!
https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/wars-of-the-republic-9781472844903/
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Battle of Scarpheia
Shortly after the Fourth Macedonian War, the Greek Acheaen League rose up against Rome. This war was one of defiance after Rome's high-handed treatment of the League during the 3rd adn 4th Macedonina War.
The Roman's took hundred of hostages from the League and refused to return them or even entreat the ambassadors sent to secure their release. In addition, populist generals were elected to the Achaean League leadership on a platform of reforms and taxation that would be counter to Roman interests. Finally, Rome's efforts to reduce the size of the League by severing several cities and limiting the size of the League. These three issues were politically unbearable to the Acheaen League and war was decided upon.
It is unlikely that the Greeks had any hope of beating the Romans. After all, the Romans had just defeated the much larger Macedonians and the Seleucid Empire. However, it was a war of defiance. It is best known for two key battles, the Battle of Scarpheia and the Battle of Corinth. There may have also been several smaller skirmishes that were unrecorded.
The outcome was the total defeat of the Acheaen League. As punishment, Rome complete destroyed Corinth, killed all the men, and sold the women and children into slavery. All of the cities wealth was looted and sent back to Rome. The Greeks were no longer a force in the Eastern Mediterranean after this cataclysmic defeat.
We know nothing about the Battle of Scarpheia except that it happened in 146 BCE between the Romans and the League. Rome won the battle and it is believed the Greeks took heavy losses, but there are very few sources on this particular battle. That is what makes it so interesting to us as wargamers! It gives us free reign to play as we wish!
Forces
Roman Triplex Acies- Praetor Matellus
1 Skirmisher
1 Triarri
1 Principes- Praetor
2 Hastati
Rival City-States- Critolaus of Megalopolis
2 Drilled Hoplites- 1 with General
1 Militia Hoplites
1 Light Infantry- Peltasts
1 Archers
1 Skirmisher- Psiloi
The Acheaen League will be represented by my Men of Bronze Corinthian army.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lM7qFnJg2-8/XtqlrAh7mcI/AAAAAAAAJVA/6836qNR6oXMXQUIzdV-rKcOvyt8ADYmXgCPcBGAsYHg/s320/IMG_4487.JPG)
Sadly, for this playtest, the Romans will be my famous Paper Templates.
Set-up
This was completed using the rules laid out by the rules in the booklet. The board is 72 x 48 MU with an MU being 1 inch. The board was divided into 6 grid spaces and terrain rolled and placed using the chart. The Players took turns rolling and placing terrain, with the player being able to place the terrain anywhere they wished in the grid square.
This system led to the following set-up.
Grid 1 is the Roman right, 2 Roman center, and 3 is Roman left. Grid 4 is Greek left, 5 is Greek center, and 6 is Greek right.
Grid 1- No terrain
Grid 2- 2-level hill
Grid 3- Grove of trees
Grid 4- Stone walls
Grid 5- Stone walls
Grid 6- Swamp or spring
The Greeks place the supplies 12 inches in from their board edge and across the frontage of the army. 1 by the swamp, two in the open field, 1 inside the stone walls, and 1 in the ruins.
The Romans deploy from left to right as Principes, Hastati, the skirmishers on the hill, Triarri on the opposite side of the hill, and then the Hastati again. The Greeks facing them from right to left are, Drilled Hoplites, Drilled Hoplites, Militia Hoplites, Archers, Light infantry (Peltasts), and Skirmishers (Psiloi)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EfKeygCVuJs/XtqlykRU-SI/AAAAAAAAJVE/tXwjGIHwlo4jUIop1MIuvcJMBVaW7X1ZACPcBGAsYHg/s320/IMG_4675.JPG)