Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Kommando_J on January 17, 2020, 10:43:41 PM
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Before I begin, I will admit quite freely, that I used to be quite the warlord fanboy, years of accepting how GW did things as the 'norm' and then suddenly I discover warlord and realise that miniature companies can do discounts! And do like their customers!
All great but now over the past two or three years especially, I have noticed that as Warlord become bigger I am liking them less and less.
The rot set in with Antares I think, I recall after the disastrous kick-starter when warlord where gearing up and releasing the first minis trying to put together a bits order from warlord, I was rebuffed by the mail order people as they claimed that being so busy with the Antares release they didn't have the tie but...things would return to normal after things had calmed down...they never did.
Next I noticed that while customer service was as good as it's always been in terms of quality...length of time for replies had gone way up, also bargains are nowhere near as good as they used to be, now the sales are in many cases obviously just them putting down the prices of less popular kits to shift them for warehouse space.
And now we have the current ongoing problem, too many properties, i'm told they suffered real losses with cruel seas and yet decided to go on ahead with the 2000AD properties, black seas (dont forget their doctor who range and the boardgames from friendly companies they also plug) and i have to wonder where it will all end!?
I miss the company of old that concentrated on its wide selection of 'core' games, now they seem to come as an after though (apart from bolt action that has a million german tank variations) not to mention in an odd and very GW like move they now are doing their own finecast...that nobody asked for, isn't cheaper, and indeed, in the case of the new SPQR re-releases...is actually worse value.
And now today I see that they are putting up prices with no reason given (http://www.warlordgames.com/announcement-price-adjustments/) and I just have to wonder how long before we see GW 2.0
(I will say I definitely regret getting the warlord membership which seemingly doesnt work with most sales and feels like a bait and switch when they went from a free armoured car in the first month to sprue samples.)
Thoughts? Am I spot on/being too pessimistic?
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Honestly I've not liked a single thing they've ever done and have steadfastly avoided Warlord, even when I worked in retail and we sold their stuff, I never took to any of it.
The quality of their ranges is just so hit and miss, the only 28mm WW2 stuff I liked was the Chindits, even though the metal quality was poor, worse still everything else they did for WW2 bar maybe the vehicles was just naff.
They also seem to be the company that buys up everyone elses stuff with only a couple of decent IPs of their own.
I may sound harsh, but Warlord has never sat right with me since they started out.
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The chindits I will agree are good (work of the great Paul Hicks) the buying up of ranges to ''get at'' a few select minis or sitting on them for years is stupid I will agree also.
One thing that I think is very telling is that their newer Australians are massively out of scale with the rest of the range and especially the chindits lol, the chindits are a svelte 28mm while the rest are more robust...then you get the Aussies which are clearly in 32mm scale lol.
Their mucking about with SPQR has put off many, massive problems yet instead of fixing them they are just releasing repackaged smaller/more expensive units and apparently an expansion is in the works.
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What amazes me is that every new rulebook they bring out seems to be full of errors. Was it 17 pages of errata for Cruel Seas the day after release? A friend of mine said Black Powder 2nd Edition was so full of errors that he went back to 1st edition (and was miffed that 2nd edition seemed ill thought out and that it was done for the sake of it).
Perhaps a worrying sign that they're rushing out too much too quickly.
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When Warlord Games launched their new website, I noticed that prices to Canadians were way more then just the exchange rate could explain. a box of plastic (ww2)infantry went from being around $38CDN to $60 CDN! and Canadians are getting screwed on minimum value for free shipping too.
I'm not sure what they are thinking with this. they aren't in the same kind of market situation that GW is in. I mean i can get a good portion of their non ww2 28mm plastic offerings from companies like Perry Bros, who even boast better quality, and are generally cheaper then their pre-new-website Canadian prices.
I was never prone to buying their products, but there are a few things that are hard to find for what was a similar price. I'll definitely be looking at alternative sources now!
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To be honest, I really liked them before their site change. I bought a lot of models and used plenty for conversions and the like for my Wehrmacht and such.
But with the new site, the price change sort of alarmed me, as did the sudden loss of quality in some models. The RSOs I recently got seemed weirdly thought out with the cab needing some filing and filling done. At first I wondered why people bash them seeing as the models weren't -that- bad per se. But now the price and site change is there I begin to wonder what they're aiming for.
Other games as mentioned previously get bought, and then painfuly neglected like the Terminator models line, with restocking taking ages. Some models disappearing to never appear again and so on.
Costumer service though, I can't complain about. In that regard I sort of felt they were very forthcoming. Often times sending stuff that was lacking or broken with spares in a matter of a mail. Sometimes even a whole new kit.
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Not a fan of Warlord’s figures but I do like their Bolt Action Rules which I use for WW1. Very miffed they pulled out of the WW1 supplement that was initially promised.
I really liked the Korean War supplement which I thought was good value. I am just disappointed they aren’t supporting it with the figure ranges required I guess because it isn’t selling well?
I don’t game Cruel Seas but surprised to hear they took a loss on it as it seems popular and successful?
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i'm told they suffered real losses with cruel seas
Got a link for this?
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My experience with their customer service has been pretty good. I've gotten replacements from them quite promptly.
I think they do have an issue with editing their rulebooks and proofreading. I am not sure what their process is but it clearly needs to be changed to avoid issues like Black Seas and SPQR.
I think they are a small company that is pushing too much product out the doors and it means that everyone there has two jobs to do and only the time to do one. Things consequently suffer.
They are growing at a fast rate and that is always a difficult thing to do correctly.
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Just talk with a friend who was in contact with higher ups, would rather not say who, he just mentioned it offhand..although now that I tihnk about it, it may have been red skies, but either way, all of these new CAD-sculpted ''vehicle games'' just being churned out right now bore the hell out of me.
It's especially annoying as others have pointed out that other companies like perry are so much better value (they come with well researched guides even) and they have a huge back log on units.
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Well, I did and do like their Celts...
...but honestly: everything you just described is totally un-GW.
They have not used their available ressources to slowly build upon an IP (Warhammer, 40k) that selling boxed games or computer games with that IP makes sense.
They rather show a very strange business model, which I kinda like, that sells ...well everything they can get their hands on.
Where do you actually see anything that can be compared to the biggest (and in many cases most professional) company selling little toy soldiers?
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Only dealt with them once , Black Friday sale bought my brother in law a bolt action tiger tank and added couple boxes of figures on a whim.
Communication was excellent but waiting to near Christmas for delivery when I’m in the uk is unacceptable imho.
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They also seem to be the company that buys up everyone elses stuff.
Buy it up and then let it die a slow death... :'(
Still nothing new to show for their Colin Patten Dark Age stuff...
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I have to admit to not really knowing what the post title is asking?
Which GW?
The pre-coup one?
The buying lots of IP one?
The "One True Manufacturer" one?
The reaching out to the wider players one?
The alienating their existing players one by retconning one of their games?
The very large range of games one?
The financial success one?
The television programme one (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/14/warhammer-tv-series-games-workshop-sales (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/14/warhammer-tv-series-games-workshop-sales)?
Or none of the above.
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Buy it up and then let it die a slow death... :'(
Still nothing new to show for their Colin Patten Dark Age stuff...
Which is one of my biggest bones to pick with Warlord. I had some of Colins Vikings just before he sold the range off. With the range now being at a standstill for god knows how long I just gave up and got rid of them.
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Now back to what was really being asked...
Well they do have one thing in common, a web site that does not engage me.
I now rarely look at either site.
I used to read the articles, they were generally interesting and would lead into some new addition to their ranges. Now, there might be articles, but they are deeply buried.
It seems to be an e-commerce only site ( I am old fashioned and buy from shops and shows - with the occasional bit of snail mail order - so it is of no interest).
I have no idea what their mail order is like (I stopped ordering from them when they stopped taking cheques https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque)).
Certainly from the above, it does sound like they have taken their eye off the ball - whether this is just that we expect GW levels of service, we think they are getting too big for their boots or that they are being rubbish I do not know.
They do make a number of nice tanks,though they do seem to trip over on obvious detail issues.
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And now today I see that they are putting up prices with no reason given (http://www.warlordgames.com/announcement-price-adjustments/)
"On the 3rd of February 2020 a number of our products will be subject to a price adjustment, following an increase in cost from our material suppliers."
First line of the page. About as much information I would expect from a company, and most miniature companies increase a few prices every now and then due to increases in postage or material costs. GW typically has no excuse, gives no or barely any heads up and certainly won't say in advance how much prices will go up by, nor typically on what sets.
As for general views on WG and their practices, I don't like them as much as I used to, but that's largely because they haven't released many things that I'm interested in. They started with some plastic and metal ancients, and most of those ranges have had relatively little expansion in the last years, although SPQR has recently been adding some models. Not interested in Bolt Action, nor Antares, nor their various boat/plane games, nor the various ranges and IPs they acquired over the years. If there is anything that reminds me of (modern) GW, it would be the hype and release of all these separate games that aren't meant to be long-term supported. I preferred it when they just made models that you could use with their rules or any others, and made games you could play with their miniatures or any others. Now, it appears SPQR only features factions they sell miniatures for...
Oh, and I hated it when the replaced their fairly nice plastic/metal hybrid Germanic Tribesmen with the topknot squad. Bloody topknots everywhere. Hate 'em. lol
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If Warlord was all crap, or had always been crap, it would be easy to ignore them. The problem is, they have some stuff that is lovely and sometimes the vibe is spot on, then the reality and delivery of promises is so far from the expectation. I don't think they're bad people, so much as well meaning people who don't plan well enough and don't worry about ditching stuff they over-promised on.
I like the 'fun' idea of what they do, that when something interests them they pursue it, but I do think there's a huge disconnect between their ambition and their ability. They need hard nosed business people in a positions of real power in the company to tell them things they don't want to hear and get some professional practices in place when dealing with the flow from customer communication to swift resolution.
Around the time when the awful plastic Bolt Action stuff came out I switched off. The spin on each release and the 'Emperor's New Clothes' line of praising the unpraisable just flicked a valve in my brain and the trust was gone. Their habit of buying up smaller companies with the promise of expanding their lines and then killing them turns my stomach with the unpleasant whiff of more widespread shady business practice, and the desperate flogging of vanity projects were unwelcome distractions.
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Just to Clarify Warlord dont buy games, they distribute them. Terminator, Mongoose Dredd, Frostgrave, Test of Honour (kind of) or use Sprues they bought to make a game (Z War). Other times they just get first dibs on work, like Antares or Erewhon. Blood Red Skies for example was never originally meant to be s big deal. It was a museum piece, it just sold so hideously well they decided to make it a big thing
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They've also bought figure lines over the years and then mothballed them.
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My experience with Warlord has been generally very positive. Their customer service has been excellent, and the sales are good value. I have picked up a lot of their stuff for WW2 gaming over the years and a selection of their AWI plastics (Indians & Hessians).
What I do find annoying is the deprecation of some of their older and better lines, like the WW2 metals in favour of the plastics, sure for some of the metals you can still get them, but you pay a premium, then there's the incomplete ranges while they release yet another German tank variant. I guess they know what sells, but who is going to start collecting a range when there is little prospect of it ever being complete?
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They're great if you like Zulus, though. That is, if you have Zulu OCD. You can currently get 1000 of them for £500.
BTW, they do still accept cheques.
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My experience with Warlord has been generally very positive. Their customer service has been excellent, and the sales are good value. I have picked up a lot of their stuff for WW2 gaming over the years and a selection of their AWI plastics (Indians & Hessians).
What I do find annoying is the deprecation of some of their older and better lines, like the WW2 metals in favour of the plastics, sure for some of the metals you can still get them, but you pay a premium, then there's the incomplete ranges while they release yet another German tank variant. I guess they know what sells, but who is going to start collecting a range when there is little prospect of it ever being complete?
If I have one major gripe, well it's two actually.
Warlord buy up 'lesser' businesses and seem to sit on things, neither moving the ranges further forward or not very far.
The tendency to mini monopolise like this is actually a danger to consumer choice.
Perhaps I'm taking it too seriously, but I do queue up at the supermarket with their job in mind making sure that I get served by a real person.
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Buying up other companies and IP's and not giving them the attention they need to keep them going isn't a GW thing, it's a CMON thing. A business model where they bring ranges in by buying up smaller companies, squeeze them for their worth for a short burst and then a couple of years down the line they are mothballed.
As for becoming the next GW - they were set up and have been run since day one, by ex-GW staff. It's not a secret that they are either.
Their plastics are quite nice. Not as nice as Perry perhaps.
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I would say they have very little in common with GW other than both entities sell little plastic and metal men.
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I would say they have very little in common with GW other than both entities sell little plastic and metal men.
Even given that the top brass of their staff mostly come from GW?
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I would say they have very little in common with GW other than both entities sell little plastic and metal men.
Even given that the top brass of their staff mostly come from GW?
I would repeat my comment about which GW...
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Even given that the top brass of their staff mostly come from GW?
I would repeat my comment about which GW...
I read your post and I was making the same point ;) :)
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Imho Warlord is asking people to pick up their items during clearance sales. Why invest in a game/miniatures we know it'll be forgotten/shelved/discontinued in about 18 months' time?
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Imho Warlord is asking people to pick up their items during clearance sales. Why invest in a game/miniatures we know it'll be forgotten/shelved/discontinued in about 18 months' time?
To be fair, I don't buy a lot of stuff from Warlord. I've only bought some of the old Saxon Miniatures Medieval Spain stuff, the Landsknecht stuff and one or two books- Hail Caesar and BP.
Apart from that I really don't have any interest in anything else.
What does bother me is their "Big bank east little bank" business model.
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Imho Warlord is asking people to pick up their items during clearance sales. Why invest in a game/miniatures we know it'll be forgotten/shelved/discontinued in about 18 months' time?
None of their clearance stuff has gone oop afaik.
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I quite like Walord. I don't play many of their games but I do enjoy Bolt Action. And their half price sprue sales seems very decent as well. I've also never had poor service from them, has always seemed very professional.
I don't know enough about their business practices to comment on those.
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Both GW and Warlord charge more for their new products in the US than the UK. Between 10-15% for Warlord and up to 30% for GW (higher cost than a straight conversion to dollars from the pound).
The usual defense of this is that a conversion price is "fixed" which is a weak defense when the rate hasn't been that high in years. I certainly can understand monthly or even quarterly changes but years? I am perhaps being cynical but I bet if the currency spot price went the other way sharply the website conversion rates would be update within days.
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Both GW and Warlord charge more for their new products in the US than the UK. Between 10-15% for Warlord and up to 30% for GW (higher cost than a straight conversion to dollars from the pound).
The usual defense of this is that a conversion price is "fixed" which is a weak defense when the rate hasn't been that high in years. I certainly can understand monthly or even quarterly changes but years? I am perhaps being cynical but I bet if the currency spot price went the other way sharply the website conversion rates would be update within days.
Yep. I can well imagine. This is what happens to the wargames industry when more corporate thinking 'heads' get cement themselves into what was essentially a cottage industry.
I guess there are positives and negatives.... with some companies the negatives outweigh the positives.
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I'm pretty happy with Warlord. I've only bought bits and pieces (sold off my antares stuff though) but the Celt and ancient stuff they do is nice. I've bought a number of their dogs and some other germanic minis as they fit nice with Frostgrave.
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Even given that the top brass of their staff mostly come from GW?
As far as how the businesses operate, yes.
Imho Warlord is asking people to pick up their items during clearance sales. Why invest in a game/miniatures we know it'll be forgotten/shelved/discontinued in about 18 months' time?
Bolt Action is a very popular game and they regularly offer sales on different kits. Not sure about the Antares game though: my suspicion is it has a small but loyal following, possibly not enough to sustain it over the long term.
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Both GW and Warlord charge more for their new products in the US than the UK. Between 10-15% for Warlord and up to 30% for GW (higher cost than a straight conversion to dollars from the pound).
The usual defense of this is that a conversion price is "fixed" which is a weak defense when the rate hasn't been that high in years. I certainly can understand monthly or even quarterly changes but years? I am perhaps being cynical but I bet if the currency spot price went the other way sharply the website conversion rates would be update within days.
Pity the poor gamers in Australia and New Zealand. Those guys always seem to have to pay through the nose for stuff.
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Both GW and Warlord charge more for their new products in the US than the UK. Between 10-15% for Warlord and up to 30% for GW (higher cost than a straight conversion to dollars from the pound).
The usual defense of this is that a conversion price is "fixed" which is a weak defense when the rate hasn't been that high in years. I certainly can understand monthly or even quarterly changes but years? I am perhaps being cynical but I bet if the currency spot price went the other way sharply the website conversion rates would be update within days.
There are also import costs, since GW no longer has a US factory, and artificial demand and supply, due to small production runs - Necromunda terrain boards, for instance.
I expect this thread to be moved and/or locked, due to the potential for causing a disturbance. :-I
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I expect this thread to be moved and/or locked, due to the potential for causing a disturbance. :-I
So far people have been behaving themselves overall, and I would kindly ask you to do the same and not instigate/provoke/jinx it (delete as applicable).
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So far people have been behaving themselves overall, and I would kindly ask you to do the same and not instigate/provoke/jinx it (delete as applicable).
I'm not a soap opera character, like Alexis Colby, so why would you think there will be instigation/provocation/jinxing? Just being a realist...
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I have noticed their large price increase over the last year, used to be 20 for a box now up to 26/28 which is a jump for little old me in NZ
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There are also import costs, since GW no longer has a US factory, and artificial demand and supply, due to small production runs - Necromunda terrain boards, for instance.
I would buy this argument more for Warlord than GW. They have a large number of stores in the US. When you ship containers full of items, the cost is really not that high per unit no matter how limited the run. Especially not 30% as some of the SOB are. I love the models but I will wait until they appear on ebay for cheap instead of buying new.
I did recently complain to Warlord support about the conversion rate. Their response was that they charge slightly higher prices in the US - it is not a mistake in currency exchange. Could be due to import costs as you suggest or because they think the market will bear it. It was about 10% more for Dredd but I wanted the models so I chose to pay it. Guess that is my threshold.
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I did recently complain to Warlord support about the conversion rate. Their response was that they charge slightly higher prices in the US - it is not a mistake in currency exchange. Could be due to import costs as you suggest or because they think the market will bear it. It was about 10% more for Dredd but I wanted the models so I chose to pay it. Guess that is my threshold.
My understanding is that GW prices the way they do to deal with currency fluctuations. They may also be factoring in the different currency costs of shipping in other countries.
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Even given that the top brass of their staff mostly come from GW?
I would repeat my comment about which GW...
You can come from a different era of Games Workshop, and still have the fact that you worked for them thrown in your face - usually for no other reason than you have adjusted prices to be able to continue operating as a profitable business.
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I liked them in the past. Service was impeccable but I will not buy from them anymore. The change of the new site means that you have to buy in your local currency, where they have inflated the exchange rates. Its a scam >:(
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If I have a complaint against Warlord is that they buy ranges, repack them and that is it! No new models, no support, no nothing. That is frustrating.
But no, I don't think they are anything alike Games Workshop.
GW is a company run as a profitable business, that exploits a particular niche and it is focused in their own products/franchise. They have created a brand, an universe, pay for professional writers to write novels set in those universes, market products related to them and only them, and don't give a damm about what their competition is doing. If GW would have go Warlords' way, they would have bought Infinity, for example, and either leave it to die a slow death or make it the third big game in their franchises.
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I liked them in the past. Service was impeccable but I will not buy from them anymore. The change of the new site means that you have to buy in your local currency, where they have inflated the exchange rates. Its a scam >:(
Most buisnesses do this, stop being salty you cant have things dirt cheap.
As for Antares mentioned earlier afaik the big issue with it was they took too damn long to get the plastics out. By the time they did 40k 8th was here and gazumped them. Now they've got a slow-ish franchise with lots of expensive plastics and a reluctance to dump them. Imo the rules need a revamp, the models are fine, the setting is somewhat distinct but the "Bolt Action in space with more complicated rules" is a no go
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My personal experiences purchasing direct from Warlord Games have always been fairly positive. The orders get posted relatively quickly and their customer service has been acceptable. These days I tend not to buy much from Warlord Games, however. I think their sculpts are really hit or miss, though I have not looked at their newest plastic releases. In general I tend to prefer other ranges for my projects, each of which comes with its own positives and negatives. A lot of people both in this thread and in the gaming community in general bemoan Warlord Games' practice of buying ranges and sitting on them while not distributing them. I think this is a fair criticism, and it is certainly something that I dislike as well. On the other hand they have many widely distributed ranges of miniatures and games that make is accessible for people to participate in this hobby. In general I am pretty much indifferent to Warlord Games.
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Most buisnesses do this, stop being salty you cant have things dirt cheap.
Well, I am not asking for dirt cheap. I just do not understand why I should pay 15% more just because they force me to pay in another currency...
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Well, I am not asking for dirt cheap. I just do not understand why I should pay 15% more just because they force me to pay in another currency...
Is it more than the MSRP at your local store?
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There is no local store...
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There is no local store...
I am going to go out on a limb and say that if there was one it would have the same prices as the online store
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Well, I am not asking for dirt cheap. I just do not understand why I should pay 15% more just because they force me to pay in another currency...
I'm not claiming to know exactly here but I think there are possibly good reasons. Just a quick look about means that they have to complete export forms for each order shipping outside of the UK if the order is packed and sent from the UK. May not sound like a lot, but the chances are it requires more time than just using a standard delivery service which a lot of big companies use where they print a label, stick it in a standardised box and then in a sack and the mail collect it and get it on it's way.
If it's anything like sending at the post office you have to give info on the contents - what they are, their value etc.
On top of that there will be the cost of exchanging currency, even digitally. If the money is coming from outside the UK, I'm not sure if you pay in £'s whether there may be an issue in terms of money passing borders electronically etc. Someone better knowledgeable than me may know.
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Damn it, you’ve put me off Warlord :( I was planning on ordering the Judge Dredd lawmaster set. 15 pounds Is about $26 Canadian at current exchange. The new web site is asking for $33. That’s a big jump
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My shipment arrived today via UPS. It was shipped directly from the UK to the US. All logistics handled by UPS with no customs forms attached. Basically the additional cost I paid over the UK price, paid for the "free" shipping from the UK. They should just add an additional cost for international shipping via UPS rather than this mystery surcharge.
Shipped the 20th and arrived the 22. Definitely faster than the normal British/US international mail services I have seen lately.
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I'm not claiming to know exactly here but I think there are possibly good reasons. Just a quick look about means that they have to complete export forms for each order shipping outside of the UK if the order is packed and sent from the UK. May not sound like a lot, but the chances are it requires more time than just using a standard delivery service which a lot of big companies use where they print a label, stick it in a standardised box and then in a sack and the mail collect it and get it on it's way.
If it's anything like sending at the post office you have to give info on the contents - what they are, their value etc.
On top of that there will be the cost of exchanging currency, even digitally. If the money is coming from outside the UK, I'm not sure if you pay in £'s whether there may be an issue in terms of money passing borders electronically etc. Someone better knowledgeable than me may know.
There are no export forms within the EU and I pay in GBP. It is still a scam in my book...
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I'm not sure I can make sense of what you've said then?
You live in the EU, pay in £ but get charged 15% more?
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I'm not sure I can make sense of what you've said then?
You live in the EU, pay in £ but get charged 15% more?
Correct, they charge me in SEK because I live in Sweden at an exchange rate 15% higher than the market rate
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Most buisnesses do this, stop being salty you cant have things dirt cheap.
I have never seen any other sites that automatically adjust the currency to your ip and you have no option to change to another.
When the site was Pounds or USD the USD prices were WAY higher than the Pounds.
A plastic sprue is a plastic sprue. Whether it is from Tamiya, Bandai, Monogram, GW, Warlord or any other maker.
Desired profit margin is the determining factor.
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Desired profit margin is the determining factor.
Or they may be matching local MSRP. Since no-one knows for sure it seems odd to assume some sort of cynical commercial motive
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Local MSRP for bolt action infantry box is ~$40 CDN . why then am i asked to pay 60 CDN on their new website? if local stores are selling it to me(at least until Warlord adjust their wholesale price) for 40 CDN and presumably making a profit, why then does Warlord feel the need to make an extra $20 CDN off me?
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Or they may be matching local MSRP. Since no-one knows for sure it seems odd to assume some sort of cynical commercial motive
I was not referring to local game shops, but in regards to Warlord’s pricing.
An assumption may be “odd”, but my observations are not based upon assumptions.
Take Wargames Factory, for instance. Warlord approached Wargames Factory (WGF) and Ghost Studios (same China based company) and negotiated a deal where Warlord would be the sole distributor of WGF sets.
Yet, it was not as simple as that. Warlord set their own price point which was roughly twice that of WGF.
It did not stop there. They manipulated the set up of the sprues to ensure even greater profits.
The modern spec forces set had 8 bodies. Warlord thought this would mean too few sprues being sold so they had WGF alter the sprue by taking off 4 of the bodies and replacing them with bases.
Not just twice the price, but also half the figures (so really 4 times the price!).
That’s just one example.
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Local MSRP for bolt action infantry box is ~$40 CDN . why then am i asked to pay 60 CDN on their new website? if local stores are selling it to me(at least until Warlord adjust their wholesale price) for 40 CDN and presumably making a profit, why then does Warlord feel the need to make an extra $20 CDN off me?
Has anyone emailed Warlord to ask?
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Has anyone emailed Warlord to ask?
It would be interesting to see Warlord’s response.
Please feel free to do so and let us know.
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I was not referring to local game shops, but in regards to Warlord’s pricing.
An assumption may be “odd”, but my observations are not based upon assumptions.
Take Wargames Factory, for instance. Warlord approached Wargames Factory (WGF) and Ghost Studios (same China based company) and negotiated a deal where Warlord would be the sole distributor of WGF sets.
Yet, it was not as simple as that. Warlord set their own price point which was roughly twice that of WGF.
It did not stop there. They manipulated the set up of the sprues to ensure even greater profits.
The modern spec forces set had 8 bodies. Warlord thought this would mean too few sprues being sold so they had WGF alter the sprue by taking off 4 of the bodies and replacing them with bases.
Not just twice the price, but also half the figures (so really 4 times the price!).
That’s just one example.
also Similar to GW. I remember when they slowly crept the price of LOTR plastic boxes up, and when the reached the breaking point for prices, they instead took one sprue(half the figures) out of the box. a decade later they doubled the prices and re-added the lost figures in the box. What a Great deal!!
they did the same things to Eldar plastic Dire Avengers as well.
Has anyone emailed Warlord to ask?
when it first happened another Canadian on the Bolt Action FB group did email. a week later when asked he said he never heard back.
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Local MSRP for bolt action infantry box is ~$40 CDN . why then am i asked to pay 60 CDN on their new website? if local stores are selling it to me(at least until Warlord adjust their wholesale price) for 40 CDN and presumably making a profit, why then does Warlord feel the need to make an extra $20 CDN off me?
I'm not sure it is as straight forward as that. Most of the the resellers (in the UK at least) are going with 20% discounts as part of the intense on-line competition here. That sort of discount ensures minimal margins and is only sustainable on high volume turn over. Some traders are able to get an extra discount by being a tier 1 trader, meaning they have to buy volume off Warlord and have most of their range in stock, but to compete, these are discounts are often being passed on, but none of hese traders have the infrastructure costs of an outfit like WG.
Even at a Wargame show where Warlord is trading, their product is full price, while everywhere else in the hall, the discounters are there. It would seem reasonable to assume that the basic running costs of WG, their research and development costs, stocking costs of each item that needs a several thousand manufacture run and staffing levels and future viability all bring a more 'realistic' cost that WG are asking, rather than the one man band type seller who is simply moving product on and to convert into coin as fast as possible.
On the boardgame side of things, i have spoken with a retailer who is selling at high discount, so that on a £72 game, they are making £3, that model is simply not viable in the longer turn, but today, he is at least making sales! but we want our wargame supply to be there forever, we are not a short term hobby. He also sells WG and so I guess similar applies.
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Personally some of their gear is really nice, so if I want it I get it, I say go second hand, eBay, reseller then their website. However if I have and do buy direct. Not sure why all the hand wringing, there's enough options out there to buy their or others product. Their business model is just that a business decision and for good or bad their profits will out as to whether successful or not
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@wymers - I am not sure your description of the Wargames Factory story is complete, I am sure there was a full description of the whole Wargames Factory business debacle(s) prior to Warlord's involvement somewhere else on this forum.
Overall their (WGF) business model was not sustainable. I bought one each of their zombie and survivors boxes, and that would probably be all I needed.
Whether Warlord made their money back on the deal is another matter (I have made my opinion of the Project Z debacle elsewhere on this forum).
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(I will say I definitely regret getting the warlord membership which seemingly doesnt work with most sales and feels like a bait and switch when they went from a free armoured car in the first month to sprue samples.)
Thoughts? Am I spot on/being too pessimistic?
I am generally a Warlord fan, although I rarely buy from them direct. The membership scheme did seem badly thought out from the off though. You had to spend a lot to get the benefit of the discount and there didn't seem to be any choice in what freebie you received each month. It perhaps would have been more appealing if there had been a small monthly fee <£5 that entitled you to a discount and some sort of points system you could cash in.
They also seem to have got into the habit of rushing development of games. I'd be annoyed if I spent £50 on a starter set and had to download an errata within a week. That said I paint much more than I play so that hasn't affected me directly.
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@wymers - I am not sure your description of the Wargames Factory story is complete, I am sure there was a full description of the whole Wargames Factory business debacle(s) prior to Warlord's involvement somewhere else on this forum.
Overall their (WGF) business model was not sustainable. I bought one each of their zombie and survivors boxes, and that would probably be all I needed.
Whether Warlord made their money back on the deal is another matter (I have made my opinion of the Project Z debacle elsewhere on this forum).
It’s true I did not go into everything.
Like Lonnie and Nancy and the rest being let go.
Or of how the deal also included Warlord’s access to Ghost’s moulding. (Check out the sprues for the newest Warlord plastics (Crimean War) - you will note they are made by WGF.
WGF sets’ price point was not as high as others and Lonnie told me he thought they could be a lot higher based on how much GW could charge.
There was a lot of anti China business sentiment about WGF products and complaints about shallow details on the first sets.
Warlord doesn’t seem to mind the details as they released the Vikings and Saxons.
Warlord did not release the lines that competed with their ancients.
There’s always more, but how much do you really need to dig up?
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Personally some of their gear is really nice, so if I want it I get it, I say go second hand, eBay, reseller then their website. However if I have and do buy direct. Not sure why all the hand wringing, there's enough options out there to buy their or others product. Their business model is just that a business decision and for good or bad their profits will out as to whether successful or not
Absolutely!
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http://www.warlordgames.com/announcement-price-adjustments/?utm_source=Warlord+Games+Newsletter&utm_campaign=5f1b77441c-Warlord_Games_News_24_January_2020&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7e928b4ed-5f1b77441c-133096241&mc_cid=5f1b77441c&mc_eid=e6a6e9b79c
More price adjustments inbound, the price increases on the Napoleonic boxes are hefty.
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http://www.warlordgames.com/announcement-price-adjustments/?utm_source=Warlord+Games+Newsletter&utm_campaign=5f1b77441c-Warlord_Games_News_24_January_2020&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b7e928b4ed-5f1b77441c-133096241&mc_cid=5f1b77441c&mc_eid=e6a6e9b79c
More price adjustments inbound, the price increases on the Napoleonic boxes are hefty.
So, and I don't know the answer to this question; has the price of producing plastic miniatures gone up?
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Correct, they charge me in SEK because I live in Sweden at an exchange rate 15% higher than the market rate
Whilst it still doesn't equate for all of it, you know that market rates are not what are paid though? Most places - banks, currency exchanges, post office either charge a rate for changing it or give you a slightly worse rate. Very few places change currency for free, if any.
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Whilst it still doesn't equate for all of it, you know that market rates are not what are paid though? Most places - banks, currency exchanges, post office either charge a rate for changing it or give you a slightly worse rate. Very few places change currency for free, if any.
Yes...and that is 2% in currency surcharge by Mastercard...
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I'm not sure it is as straight forward as that. Most of the the resellers (in the UK at least) are going with 20% discounts as part of the intense on-line competition here. That sort of discount ensures minimal margins and is only sustainable on high volume turn over. Some traders are able to get an extra discount by being a tier 1 trader, meaning they have to buy volume off Warlord and have most of their range in stock, but to compete, these are discounts are often being passed on, but none of hese traders have the infrastructure costs of an outfit like WG.
Even at a Wargame show where Warlord is trading, their product is full price, while everywhere else in the hall, the discounters are there. It would seem reasonable to assume that the basic running costs of WG, their research and development costs, stocking costs of each item that needs a several thousand manufacture run and staffing levels and future viability all bring a more 'realistic' cost that WG are asking, rather than the one man band type seller who is simply moving product on and to convert into coin as fast as possible.
On the boardgame side of things, i have spoken with a retailer who is selling at high discount, so that on a £72 game, they are making £3, that model is simply not viable in the longer turn, but today, he is at least making sales! but we want our wargame supply to be there forever, we are not a short term hobby. He also sells WG and so I guess similar applies.
Most of the Brick and Mortar stores where I live charge full MSRP. Especially on historical stuff, which doesn't sell as well as 40K locally, and has fewer stockists. even if it was 20% off though, why would it be suddenly 50% more? that would only account for half the increase, but that's not even the case.
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Theres always the Brexit elephant in the room ? Could very well be future proofing
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"None of their clearance stuff has gone oop afaik."
The 28mm Spec Ops plastics are either OOP or stupidly hard to find on their website. Which is a shame, cos I'd like to buy some more.
Saxon Miniatures (which they acquired) also made moulds for casting dark age buildings in plaster. I was quite interested in getting hold of a set, but I never did get a reply to a question to WG about how to that wasn't actually the answer to a completely different question.
I do miss not being able to get more of the classic Bolt Action figures as well. But on the other hand, they are a company with the clout to establish fairly comprehensive new figure lines and products that we might otherwise not have.
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I can see why the OP asked the question but Warlords similarity to Games Workshop in that there was that enthusiasm for the hobby and also the engagement of the news letter and (originally the forum) was part of the initial attraction of the company to me in the early days.
Unfortunately I don't find the quality of their products matches the hype around them. They sell a lot of stuff but I find it to be of variable quality. Even with their plastic box sets for bolt action, I find that one does not necessarily have the quality of another. The blitzkrieg Germans and the Fallschirmjager plastics are quite good imho. The grenadiers box set, not so. I have also heard others say that they find US airborne plastics are fairly ropey too.
There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in the size of their figures even across one range and even within their box sets. The plastic grenadiers are an interesting mix of sizes which wouldn't matter so much if they didn't all use a standard set of arms.
Let's not get onto discussing the casting issues with some of their metals...
To sum up Warlord okay - but could do better...
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"None of their clearance stuff has gone oop afaik."
The 28mm Spec Ops plastics are either OOP or stupidly hard to find on their website. Which is a shame, cos I'd like to buy some more.
Saxon Miniatures (which they acquired) also made moulds for casting dark age buildings in plaster. I was quite interested in getting hold of a set, but I never did get a reply to a question to WG about how to that wasn't actually the answer to a completely different question.
I do miss not being able to get more of the classic Bolt Action figures as well. But on the other hand, they are a company with the clout to establish fairly comprehensive new figure lines and products that we might otherwise not have.
I did forget about the Z-war range tbh. I was thinking more of the ordinary stuff they regularly put on clearance
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I often buy sprues from them when they go for cheap. Bought Celts, Romans, etc several times. Each time shipping to the States has been quick, and the one time a mistake was made they fixed it very quickly.
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Warlord have made some strange decisions.
Crimean war, Korea, cruel seas, judge dredd, gates of antares.
They are guilty I think of doing too much but never fully completing and getting behind anything.
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The way I look at it, there's only a certain number of wargamers around the world at any one time, and that isn't as vast a number as other hobbies out there have.
There aren't hordes of historical wargamers flocking to the hobby every year, there's some but not enough to keep firms like Warlord afloat with the new sales they'll bring in, unless Warlord keep releasing new stuff and keep their old ranges ticking over for those newbies to buy from. However, in order to keep going longterm WG need to reduce the competition by buying out ranges which might bring in more punters, but because sales on these ranges will die down after a while as the majority will buy their figures when they are first released they will have to seek out opportunities to add to their portfolio at a fairly steady rate in order to maintain turnover.
Unfortunately, there's going to come a point in the future where we will reach saturation point on figures, terrain and buildings where every conflict has been modelled in every scale available and people are spoilt for choice. No one is going to produce, for example, yet another comprehensive Napoleonic range in 28mm/15mm etc when it is already covered by plenty of other manufacturers, it will only dilute sales even further.
Some firms will only survive or thrive, by buying out other firms in order to cover as many periods and scales as possible, and as we see the owners of some businesses get older many will see the chance to sell up and retire whilst making something to put in their pension fund. The number of purveyors will shrink, it has to, and we will end up going to people such as WG where there is choice of scales and periods in a sort of online wargames supermarket.
That's how I see the hobby going in say 10/15 years time.
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Some interesting points.
I wonder about the hobby in 10/15 years, too.
As it stands now, it seems a great many historical gamers are not young.
GW gamers are young.
At one time, there was a lot of interest in historical gaming with a lot of media publicity that drove and inspired interest.
I do not see that today. I do not see many game stores even carrying historical. Flames of War was the exception, but that has died away.
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Some interesting points.
I wonder about the hobby in 10/15 years, too.
As it stands now, it seems a great many historical gamers are not young.
GW gamers are young.
At one time, there was a lot of interest in historical gaming with a lot of media publicity that drove and inspired interest.
I do not see that today. I do not see many game stores even carrying historical. Flames of War was the exception, but that has died away.
It'll be fine...
The graying of the hobby is more subjective than objective and occurring in cycles. I'm more concerned about this sentence from The Times (January 21 2020):
Games Workshop also started to promote itself to schools (2,000 of them now run after-school Warhammer clubs) and the scouts (who dish out badges for Warhammer, as well as for camping and hillwalking).
It's worse than those 80s toy commercials and shows and more like a plan engendering a cultish mentality.
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It's all about building a clientele isn't it. Unfortunately for historical gamers there is nobody doing something similar. Fortunately for historical gaming companies many of those kids may not have had any exposure to the notion of playing war games and some of them will migrate to historical games.
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It'll be fine...
The graying of the hobby is more subjective than objective and occurring in cycles. I'm more concerned about this sentence from The Times (January 21 2020):
It's worse than those 80s toy commercials and shows and more like a plan engendering a cultish mentality.
Games Workshop Youth!! >:(
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Games Workshop has one thing Warlord Games will likely never have.
Outside of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, Games Workshop possesses one of the strongest fictional IPs in existence. It's been a 40 year process, but they've managed to massage their IP into something solid, predominantly the 40K universe/IP.
This IP happens to appeal to younger people, and younger people are more likely to have random amounts of cash on hand, and a willingness to dive into something half-assed, or for six months before quitting. As people age they tend to become more practical, more money-savvy, more likely to think out a long-term purchase/investment even in something as simple as a hobby.
GW has a decent following of older players, but their bread and butter are kids with parents and 20-somethings with disposable income (or even those without the money who spend it anyway). Couple this with convincing people to pay $60 for ten plastic miniatures, and they're sitting in a unique market position. They're a huge company with a captive audience. It doesn't matter if someone plays the game for six months...they're likely to have already spent $500-1000 on stuff before flogging it off on eBay.
Warlord Games on the other hand is a charnel house of half-projects. They're in a competitive market, selling historical figures (something GW doesn't really worry about since their products are based around a defensible IP)...but they also stockpile loads of small companies which sold their assets to them. This means you have a huge variety in quality of material, with ranges which don't match each other, etc. Also, I tend to dislike Warlord because prices go up after they buy a product line.
I feel like Warlord tries to do way too much, and doesn't do any of it particularly well. Their rules are pretty decent, and some of their kits are completely okay, but they don't dominate many periods. There's also nothing you can get from Warlord Games that you can't find elsewhere. Without the captive audience that GW has, they'll never become financially anywhere near as strong.
Games Workshop has such a captive audience they more or less charge whatever they want, and people pay for it. That's a really unique situation that only a handful of companies in the world have (and most of them are "luxury" clothes lines...). Warlord will likely never be in that position.
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It's all about building a clientele isn't it. Unfortunately for historical gamers there is nobody doing something similar. Fortunately for historical gaming companies many of those kids may not have had any exposure to the notion of playing war games and some of them will migrate to historical games.
'I'm all for building clientele, but this seems predatory and already seen the results on TGA: fanboys extolling GW's innovations in brush technology!
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I usually do not defend GW practices but I don't see how it's at all predatory. Obviously it will expose kids to their product line but there nothing wrong with that.
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Yeah I don't see it that way either. The vast majority of those kids will drop GW before they become adults. Out of those few that stay in, some will eventually migrate to other games; of those a handful will become interested in historical games (probably WW2 ::)).
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Yeah I don't see it that way either. The vast majority of those kids will drop GW before they become adults. Out of those few that stay in, some will eventually migrate to other games; of those a handful will become interested in historical games (probably WW2 ::)).
That's the problem in a nutshell. A handful will become interested in historical wargaming, and add that to the relatively small handful when compared to other hobbies who will take up the hobby without gravitating across from GW fantasy, and you have a future problem regarding financial profitability for the majority of wargames suppliers somewhere down the road in about 10/15 years time. There will be the ones who come back later in life after marriage, kids etc but the influx isn't there to sustain the kind of turnover some businesses, such as WG, require to keep the wheels turning forever without them turning into a kind of Death Star and absorbing other firms. It has happened in my industry sector over the past 20 years where we now have one major firm controlling virtually the entire UK market along with a handful of other firms of slightly smaller proportion who mostly supply themselves, and then some very minor (by comparison of size) firms picking up the specialist trade. As long as we have producers who are happy to run their business as a part time enterprise then we will continue to see roughly the number of traders we see today, but there will be companies disappearing as they sell up and get out over the next few years due to competition and too much choice in the marketplace in certain areas.
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That has been the nature of tabletop wargaming as long as I've been doing it though - that isn't something new.
Look at any wargaming convention that isn't based around a GW style event, and you'll see (at least in the US) it's 80% people above the age of 35-40. The few younger people who are there tend to be friends or children of the older gamers, etc.
The transition from "kinda sorta" wargaming, aka playing 40K when you're a teenager rarely does convert into a lifelong hobby. That's not something new though. Even before the internet, video games, etc., it's simply not a mega-popular hobby. It's always been propped up by most manufacturers being rather small.
Now I agree with you, there isn't room for several companies of GW's size right now - I don't think the market would support that. Smaller companies need to be extremely frugal and realistic with their expectations, and they need to be putting out a solid product now, as there is quite a bit of competition in a variety of genres. I just don't think we're seeing a "new" decline in future customers, etc.
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I can see why the OP asked the question but Warlords similarity to Games Workshop in that there was that enthusiasm for the hobby and also the engagement of the news letter and (originally the forum) was part of the initial attraction of the company to me in the early days.
Unfortunately I don't find the quality of their products matches the hype around them. They sell a lot of stuff but I find it to be of variable quality. Even with their plastic box sets for bolt action, I find that one does not necessarily have the quality of another. The blitzkrieg Germans and the Fallschirmjager plastics are quite good imho. The grenadiers box set, not so. I have also heard others say that they find US airborne plastics are fairly ropey too.
There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in the size of their figures even across one range and even within their box sets. The plastic grenadiers are an interesting mix of sizes which wouldn't matter so much if they didn't all use a standard set of arms.
Let's not get onto discussing the casting issues with some of their metals...
To sum up Warlord okay - but could do better...
I miss the god old days when WG had lots of great hobby articles and such, lots of articles getting recycled now, also I see warlord are doing ANOTHER WW2 BOAT GAME...ffs lol.
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I just don't think we're seeing a "new" decline in future customers, etc.
I don't think there is a decline per se. I just don't see the current business and general hobby model as sustainable in their current form in say 10 years time.
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Most companies can easily be sustained by the hobby market if they're handled properly and maintain a reasonable expectation. The problem is that many companies do a Kickstarter, raise a million bucks...and suddenly think they've hit it big and they'll be the next GW. So many of these companies over promise and underdeliver on KS because they try too hard to generate interest with freebies and stretch goals. I seem to see a company (with a previously successful Kickstarter) close shop almost every month or two.
I don't think that reflects a market issue, but rather a failure to simply run a business properly. Same reason so many hobby stores and game stores close between 6-18 months. It's a business first and your hobby second...but way too many people get carried away with it all.
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That's the problem in a nutshell.
I guess I don't see it as a problem per se; just a consequence of a small, marginal business environment. With GW promoting itself there is a certain amount of trickle down effect to other sub-sectors of the war gaming hobby. I think it is unlikely that there would be more kids ending up pursuing historical games or future historical gamers, more custom for mom and pop businesses without GW doing what GW does.
Often those ranges are offered to Warlord by the owners as they want to get put for various reasons. If Warlord wanted to increase there chance of staying viable they wouldn't buy up other ranges they would just sit back and pump out more Bolt Action and Naps :D. You will know the hobby is really in trouble when there isn't a company like Warlord around for them to sell their ranges to.
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That has been the nature of tabletop wargaming as long as I've been doing it though - that isn't something new.
Look at any wargaming convention that isn't based around a GW style event, and you'll see (at least in the US) it's 80% people above the age of 35-40. The few younger people who are there tend to be friends or children of the older gamers, etc.
The transition from "kinda sorta" wargaming, aka playing 40K when you're a teenager rarely does convert into a lifelong hobby. That's not something new though. Even before the internet, video games, etc., it's simply not a mega-popular hobby. It's always been propped up by most manufacturers being rather small.
Now I agree with you, there isn't room for several companies of GW's size right now - I don't think the market would support that. Smaller companies need to be extremely frugal and realistic with their expectations, and they need to be putting out a solid product now, as there is quite a bit of competition in a variety of genres. I just don't think we're seeing a "new" decline in future customers, etc.
I don't see this to be honest.
I just see the same conversation every so many years. I think it's a bit like music though. Folks will bemoan the lack of decent music out there. But what they call music and what the modern tastes are, can be very different.
If we drop 'wargames' and instead use 'tabletop gaming' I think you'll see the market, support and interest is as high as it ever has been if not stronger.
Wargaming used to be the shunned, un-cool corner of that umbrella. Probably sharing space with RPG's. But over the last 20 years 'tabletop' has become more mainstream and the distinction between different parts of that term have become less clear.
We now get boardgames which are essentially lite RPG's. Tabletop games which are essentially wargames on boards.
My reflections on Salute over the last few years is that we are seeing a much more diverse crowd. More younger folk, more women, more families. That is how you maintain a hobby, you pass it on.
The gaps we sometimes see in ages are't that unusual. I ran a football (soccer to those not in the UK) team for a decade before hanging up both my boots and my joint manager/chairman responsibilities. I rarely got 16-23 year olds asking to join. Socio-economic mostly I think. Costs and being drawn to other things youngsters do at that point in their lives. Computer games, out with the lads, courting etc. Plus university and education. Some also played in youth teams which means to the adult game, they are invisible - like school wargames clubs I guess.
It's definitely a hobby that is far easier to get into now than it has been.
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As if the comparisons couldn't get more apt, saw this on warlords new releases alongside a suspiciously familiar ogre hunter and ogre chef.
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Oh dear.
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I mean, those are just Warhammer Fantasy replicates as produced by about 50 companies out there, and these aren't even produced by Warlord Games themselves, just sold through them...
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I can't see the photo. Just shows up as an html attachment
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I can't see the photo.
Count yourself lucky! :D
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It appears that it was saved as a .webp file that doesn't work on Safari.
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Count yourself lucky! :D
lol So true lol
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Well if it is from TTCombat I won't touch it. The Halflings they sold via Warlord were a disaster.
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It is ttcombat, the other two for reference.
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Good luck with that. GW took this path because they can and are in a unique position to do so. Foundry tried the same I believe and was surpassed by others.
Good thing 3d printers are becoming better and cheaper. I’ve got enough lead, plastic and resin to last this lazy painter the whole decade. So, when the last fig is painted and if I am still around I’ll have a look at how it’s turned out by then.
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It would seem I am now forced to eat some of my words regarding warlord, found out the support boxes are fixed head, went and asked mail order if I ordered a 'normal' (ie separate head) hq, would they switch it out for me and to my great surprise the lovely Robin at warlord was happy to help even though it meant extra work.
Also I ordered on Tuesday night, dispatched yesterday and arrived today...pretty good service and a big thank you to Robin Scott-Blore!
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It would seem I am now forced to eat some of my words regarding warlord, found out the support boxes are fixed head, went and asked mail order if I ordered a 'normal' (ie separate head) hq, would they switch it out for me and to my great surprise the lovely Robin at warlord was happy to help even though it meant extra work.
Also I ordered on Tuesday night, dispatched yesterday and arrived today...pretty good service and a big thank you to Robin Scott-Blore!
Yeah Robin's fair! The customer service really can't be beat. :D