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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Johnny Boy on January 20, 2020, 06:11:02 PM

Title: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Johnny Boy on January 20, 2020, 06:11:02 PM
A very good evening to one and all. I was after some recommendations for a set of Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain. Having started rereading some of Simon Scarrow's Macro and Cato adventures and watching "Rome" again gave me a yearning for a dozen or so Romans and appropriate Barbarian bands to game. I've seen reviews of SPQR and not wholly convinced. What else is out there for the size of game I'm planning.
Many thanks in advance
Johnny Boy
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: wmyers on January 20, 2020, 07:41:13 PM
Check out ‘Clash of Spears’.

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=120683.0 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=120683.0)

Also, ‘War and Conquest’ and ‘Warhammer Ancient Battles’.

You can also use the Games Workshop ‘Lord of the Rings’ Strategy Battle Game rules without the magic to create some very fun, detailed (jumping, climbing, falling, rolling, etc) and personalized character action without the magic.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: NickNascati on January 20, 2020, 08:41:56 PM
For games that size, look at Fistful of Lead, Song of Blades and Heroes, or even Pulp Alley.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Nick2729 on January 20, 2020, 09:06:21 PM
How about the forthcoming "Infamy, Infamy" from Too Fat Lardies.

Several playtest game reports here.

http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=7895

I'm looking at these for exactly the things you are looking for.

Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Tibson on January 21, 2020, 05:22:19 AM
Are copies actually available?  Scale doesn't really seem to fit.  Does it scale down to only a dozen guys?  If it's anything like Dux or Sharpes, it's really large warband scale, rather than small skirmish.

Earlier suggestions were very good.  You could easily toss in En Garde as it's pretty generic if you enjoy the mechanics.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: has.been on January 21, 2020, 11:39:33 AM
I have fancied doing similar, (Romans in Britain skirmish games),
ever since seeing Angus McBride's wonderful illustrations all those years ago.
The scenarios flooded into my (then young) mind:-
One 2 wheeled supply wagon, guarded by 6 Auxillia. Ambushed by a dozen barbarians;
A cavalry patrol (4 mounted figures) trying to scout out possible ambushes;
10 legionaries have to hold the ford against all comers or
a battered rearguard (8 legionaries/auxillia & a couple of archers) have to retreat
across the table, closely pursued by a mixture of light troops (slingers/javlinmen/unarmoured Cav.)

I like Lardy rules & have a lot of them, but Infamy Infamy is for larger numbers of figures.
I would recommend the Fistful of Lead core rules. They are fun, simple & deal well with
multi-player.  e.g. Player a) controls the supply wagon & driver. Player b) The 6 Auxillia.
Players c) & d)  6 Barbarians each. You can give each player their own objectives/victory conditions.
e.g. You must get the supply wagon off the table. Your warband must kill more Romans
than the other warband. Sod the supplies you want to get back to the fort.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Malamute on January 21, 2020, 11:46:07 AM
If you want a small scale skirmish game where a player controls 5 - 7 figures and you want your heroes and characters to have traits, skills then Look at Fistful of Lead Core rules as mentioned by has.been.

Do not be fooled by the title, the rules work extremely well for games using swords, spears bows etc. We have been using them for medieval combat and they play very well indeed.

Check out the thread here for some further information about FFoL and a summary of a recent game:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121380.0
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: BaronVonJ on January 21, 2020, 02:02:22 PM
This guy used FfoL for Romans vs Werewolves:
https://youtu.be/csgFrzCouBU
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: boywundyrx on January 21, 2020, 02:35:20 PM
A lot of good suggestions already, a couple of more specific ones from the Song of Blades and Heroes can be Song of Arthur and Merlin for very late (400s) Roman Britain, or Song of Dust and Shadows, which is urban Roman gang warfare; less on Britain but some good Roman stuff.  I'm looking at the Advanced SoBH system too, as it has a few more details to add about weapons and shields that will work to make things less generic.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Aerendar Valandil on January 21, 2020, 02:41:02 PM
I second Song of Blades.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Maniac on January 21, 2020, 07:11:32 PM
Like others have said, Fistful of Lead is fantastic for small scale action (4-10 models per player).  You could also modify En Garde!/Ronin if you are feeling a bit more adventurous.  It uses a similar model count.  We've used it for Dark Age and Greek warfare a couple times.  It does not use FFoL's card activation system but it does have a morale score that can effect gameplay.  The combat pool mechanic is also quite good.

Going a little larger, up to 20-40 models look at Saga.  It is a brilliant system.  We prefer 1st ed. overall, but 2nd is a little 'cleaner' (the changes to warlords and the changes to the movement of figures, while more simple were not good changes in 2nd ed).  Aetius and Arthur already covers late Roman armies and her enemies.  There are already republican/imperial home made lists out there so it will easily support that too.  The battleboard mechanics are fantastic, and it is really in this area that the game shines.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Easy E on January 21, 2020, 07:37:07 PM
You could use Broken Legions from Osprey.....

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-broken-legions-osprey-wargame.html

Also, here are some thoughts on EnGarde/Ronin....

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/09/review-roninen-garde-osprey-games.html

I am not a fan of the Song of Blades and Heroes as I find it FAR to heavy on special rules and not enough stats for meaningful differentiation between units.  You can see my thoughts on the general systems here....

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-fistful-of-kung-fu-osprey.html
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Johnny Boy on January 21, 2020, 07:59:46 PM
Many many thanks guys. A lot to think and read about to come to a decision. I'm in a semi-fortunate position of having a modest amount of disposable income for my hobby but am very "Time Poor" so rule sets in the past supported by plenty of scenarios(Force on Force, Dead Man's Hand and Bolt Action Sealion for example) has been a go to for me. I like to keep a degree of historical realism but have a little flexibility. Hollywood and TV provide much inspiration in my world of gaming. If anyone knows of a source of scenarios that would be useful too.
Once again many thanks
Johnny Boy
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 21, 2020, 09:21:02 PM
haha.. "skirmish rules" ... we need to come up with more clear definitions..

we always end up having the same problem with the definition.. 10-15 figures per side or 30-60 in units ?

CLASH fits the second group... 30+ figures in units of 6-10 guys each roughly..

for squad level games ( 10-15 ) I might add to the other great recommendations Brink of Battle..

But I'm not sure which one you were looking for.. cheers...
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Johnny Boy on January 22, 2020, 07:43:22 PM
A very good point made there seldon. I'm old school and skirmish to me will always be Don Featherstone ie a handful (4-12) figures per faction so it's manageable but a large skirmish with "Big Men" but therein what constitutes large, 15-25 figures? All in the eye/mind of the beholder I suppose. But many thanks for your input and I will endeavour to be a bit clearer on what I'm looking for in future posts.   
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 23, 2020, 01:27:31 AM
Oh, I was not complaining about you.... by all means do not take it as criticism ... Like anyone would have the last word on this :D

we all have this issue... we just don’t have a term to classify the options :)

I usually say “platoon level” for those games even if the platoon is not valid for the period...

I guess as these games became more popular the issue became more common...

Ok... in that case 10-15 figures per side...certainly not CLASH... lots of great options and keep Brink of Battle in mind...

I love squad level games ...

Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Poiter50 on January 23, 2020, 01:52:07 AM
Looks like North Star have s set coming up for release in Feb from posts on this forum.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 23, 2020, 02:14:35 AM
Missed that.. unless you mean Soldiers of Rome, those are actually for large battles ...

BTW, this is a Brink of Battle report , it is with Lord of the Rings but you can get an idea of how it works for ancients/medievals...

https://www.thewargamespot.com/clash-at-cynewiin-epic-heroes-of-middle-earth-skirmish-battle/

cheers
Francisco
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Poiter50 on January 23, 2020, 02:21:11 AM
Ah, I see, units of up to 20, not forces of. Silly me.

Missed that.. unless you mean Soldiers of Rome, those are actually for large battles ...

BTW, this is a Brink of Battle report , it is with Lord of the Rings but you can get an idea of how it works for ancients/medievals...

https://www.thewargamespot.com/clash-at-cynewiin-epic-heroes-of-middle-earth-skirmish-battle/

cheers
Francisco
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 23, 2020, 03:00:13 AM
Still looks interesting :)
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Easy E on January 23, 2020, 04:15:06 PM
I tend to say Model-vs-model is I want 1 figure fighting 1 figure style skirmish.

If I want small units fighting each other like Clash of Spears or Men of Bronze, I tend to say Squad vs. Squad skirmish. 

It helps me differentiate, but other people's mileage may vary.   
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 23, 2020, 04:40:44 PM
but men of bronze you do large battles right ?  The scenarios in the book ar too large for clash.. not in figure count due to the scale in your game but our rules don’t cover phalanxes and such.. right ?

Kind of you could use an army to represent a raid in clash and use the same minis to do a large battle with MoB .. right ?

Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Easy E on January 23, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
Yes, that is true.....


Dang it.....


Now I have to rethink my whole world view!   :o  :D :o lol
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 23, 2020, 08:27:03 PM
You can re-think the world view buuut... just don't re-write the rules.. we already learned those :) ...

I'm waiting for the new book to try my 10mm punic wars armies :)

Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Hobgoblin on January 24, 2020, 01:10:33 PM
I'd agree with the recommendations of Fistful of Lead, Pulp Alley and Song of Blades.

I'd also largely disagree with the criticism of Song of Blades' traits system. Of all the skirmish games I've played, I find Song of Blades to be the one that needs the least consultation of the rulebook - and that usually means zero consultation.

Yes, there are lots of traits to add to the basic two-stat profile. But most of them are exceptionally easy to memorise. For example, Savage (appropriate for a druid or fierce tribal champion, perhaps) means that any kill made by that model is a 'gruesome kill' (causing a morale test). Big gives a +1 bonus in close combat but the same bonus to anyone shooting at the model. Long Move uses the 'long' measuring stick rather than the medium one. Shooter (Long) gives the model a missile weapon using the 'long' stick for range. And so on.

The point is, once you've used these once, you'll remember what they do. And most characters will have either zero or one trait, so they really don't cause many complications. If you look at the profiles at the back of the SoBH rulebook, you'll see what I mean.

By comparison, Fistful of Lead (an equally brilliant game) also uses traits and tends to have more of them per model. I find its traits slightly less intuitive and so typically refer to the rules a bit more often. Part of that is just down to less familiarity with the rules, of course.

Pulp Alley has a similar allocation of traits to FFoL. Again, I'd say these are a little less intuitive/memorable than SobH's traits. But against that, many of them are factored into the main character profile. So there's less need to consult the rules.

All three games are excellent, so I'd recommend them all (it's nice to skip from one to the other as time and whim dictates). I'd recommend SoBH for spur-of-the-moment games as it has the quickest warband generation and 'time to table'. FFoL is really good for larger groups of players. Pulp Alley has the most built-in narrative and non-combat options. I really couldn't pick a favourite, though I've played SoBH more than the others, mainly because you can get a game going from scratch in five minutes flat.

Here's how Song of Blades could work with Romans vs Britons (a patrol attacked close to Hadrian's Wall, perhaps?).

Romans
5 x Legionaries: Q3, C3, Heavy Armour, Shooter: (Short), Shieldwall
1 x Native Scout: Q4, C2, Forester, Free Disengage, Shooter (Medium)
1 X Mounted Auxiliary: Q3, C3, Mounted, Long Move
302 points

Britons
1 x Chieftain: Q3, C3, Leader
1 x Champion: Q3, C4, Hero, Savage, Shooter (Short), Tough
6 x Warriors: Q4, C2, Dashing, Shooter (Short)
308 points

Shooter (Short) represents pila/javelins; Shooter (Medium) represents a bow.

That should give you a nicely balanced game. The Romans are disciplined and steady; the Britons are hard-hitting but frail - especially if their leader is killed. Each side should play very differently from the other.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Johnny Boy on January 26, 2020, 08:43:56 AM
Once again many thanks for the feedback, just need to decide plastic, metal or both?? Any suggestions for a good mix of different poses if I go metal?
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on January 26, 2020, 09:17:41 AM
Once again many thanks for the feedback, just need to decide plastic, metal or both?? Any suggestions for a good mix of different poses if I go metal?

I dare to say plastics, now that Victrix has legionaires, auxiliares, cavalry and Celts available.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Ghost on January 26, 2020, 02:00:46 PM
You could give a try to "Open Combat" : a few characteristic and abilities, simple mecanisms, the game is designed for skirmishes in pre-gun powder era.
You only need 5-10 miniatures and a 2'x2' battlefield.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: tikitang on January 26, 2020, 09:54:09 PM
I would use the profiles from Warhammer Ancient Battles, build up a very small "army" between 100 and 200 points, then use the Mordheim or Warhammer Skirmish rules to actually play. It is all the same system so should work fine with only a bit of tweaking here and there.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: wmyers on January 27, 2020, 02:18:01 AM
Once again many thanks for the feedback, just need to decide plastic, metal or both?? Any suggestions for a good mix of different poses if I go metal?

If you’re only getting a few, go for metal. 

Plastic is good for large numbers being built up cheaply. However, some plastics makers charge about the same as metals and plastic breaks very easily. Metal lasts, has a better feel to it and they seem like miniature sculptures (far more so than plastics).

Although, it really needs to be based on how much you have to spend.
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on January 27, 2020, 04:47:18 AM
Heroes need to be metal! Not namby pamby plastic. 
Now, be a man and buy metal (or plastic if you really want) lol

For a slightly larger "skirmish" can Mortal Gods be adapted?
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: seldon on January 27, 2020, 02:41:50 PM
You could give a try to "Open Combat" : a few characteristic and abilities, simple mecanisms, the game is designed for skirmishes in pre-gun powder era.
You only need 5-10 miniatures and a 2'x2' battlefield.

Indeed.. Open Combat is simple and fun..
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Johnny Boy on January 27, 2020, 06:44:10 PM
It was only this morning I remembered I have a box of Warlord Early Imperial Romans that were free for taking out a subscription for Miniature Wargames and were given to me by the subscriber who had no use for them. So there's the rank and file! Some metal officers etc would be the way forward I think. Anyone got a preference for a Briton/Celt figure line?
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: wmyers on January 27, 2020, 09:05:03 PM
Old Glory Celts have a lot of variety. But you may not need such numbers.

Wargames Foundry Celts are nice.

WargamesFoundry EI Romans are the same height as the Warlord ones (as long as they are the Foundry Perry EIR and NOT the Foundry Steve Salah EIR which are several mm taller).

Warlord Celts are okay.  Victrix are nice. These two are plastics (Warlord also makes metal command). Foundry and Old Glory are lead.

Crusader and Blacktree Design are a couple of others.  Relic and Renegade are another two. 

I would check ebay seeing as though you are in England.  You will find a lot more listings on there than we would here in the colonies.  Check prices first for new so you know you are getting a deal from the ebay listings.

Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: Johnny Boy on January 29, 2020, 06:44:39 PM
Once again, many thanks for all the input and suggestions it's very much appreciated. I'll make sure I get some progress reports posted.
cheers
Johnny Boy
Title: Re: Small scale Skirmish rules for Romans in Britain Any Suggestions please?
Post by: wmyers on February 01, 2020, 02:37:48 AM
The original post asked about rules for small scale skirmishes.  For about 12 Romans.

If you look at another post in this 'Age of Myths, Gods and Empires' forum section, you will see a thread entitle 'Warhammer Ancient Battles - Chariot Wars'.

The Original Poster there is using the Games Workshop Warhammer 'Mordheim'.  I think this may be just what you are looking for. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordheim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordheim)

Here are some home-brewed rules based on Mordheim:

http://whfbnarratives.blogspot.com/p/mordheim-rulebook-compendium-edinburgh.html (http://whfbnarratives.blogspot.com/p/mordheim-rulebook-compendium-edinburgh.html)

If you use your favourite search engine and search for the rules I am sure you can find some pdf versions of original rules.