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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Stuart on January 26, 2020, 08:23:37 PM

Title: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 26, 2020, 08:23:37 PM
I’m drawing a blank trying to find the heraldry for this chap.

Can anyone help?

Thanks very much

Stuart
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Atheling on January 26, 2020, 09:29:59 PM
Hi mate,

Where is Morley?

It might be on one of the three Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses booklets I have but I will need the name of the county as this is how the books are indexed(?)

Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 26, 2020, 09:45:44 PM
Wiki; ‘Morley Saint Botolph is a small village in the English county of Norfolk. It is situated 4 km south-west of the town of Wymondham and 23 km south-west of the city of Norwich. The village name is normally abbreviated to "Morley St Botolph".
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 26, 2020, 10:00:48 PM
Oh, he's local to me then!
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 26, 2020, 10:09:38 PM
Get searching those churches Charlie !
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 26, 2020, 10:33:29 PM
Look what we have here....

https://archive.org/stream/historyofhingham00upch/historyofhingham00upch_djvu.txt

HISTORY OF HINGHAM, NORFOLK, and its Church of St. Andrew

Quote
Their son, Henry Lovell, Lord Morley, married Elizabeth, daughter of Michael de la Pole. He was sent by King Henry VII., in 1489, to France to assist the Duchess of Brittany against Charles VIII. of France. He crossed to Calais at the head of 1,000 archers, at Calais he picked up another 1,000 archers, and marched to Dixmude. By this time artillery had begun to take part in war. The archers were ordered, when they saw the guns about to be fired, to throw themselves flat on the ground. Their leader, Lord Morley, sat still on his horse and was killed. With him the Morley family died out.

The Morley monument in the Chancel, to the careful observer, shows two lions rampant, that is, apparently standing on their hind legs, one of the lions has a crown on its head, the other has two tails. They are the arms of the Morley family and thereby hangs the tale of a celebrated trial. In mediaeval days every knightly family regarded its family arms as of the gravest importance. A knight might choose some device for his coat of arms, but no two families were allowed the same. In 1895 Sir John Lovell declared that the lions rampant on the Morley family coat of arms belonged to him, as heir of Lord Brunell and not to Sir Thomas Morley. Sir Thomas pleaded that the arms belonged to his ancestors from the Norman conquest. The case was brought before a Court of Chivalry at Calais.
 
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 26, 2020, 10:41:17 PM
Excellent work Charlie!
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 26, 2020, 10:51:36 PM
The monument has 6 shields, 2 of which are as described above, is it a case of just halving the arms?
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 26, 2020, 10:55:33 PM
Oh yes, you have better eyes than me - I'd found the pic but couldn't make out any shields at first.

(http://www.norfolkchurches.co.uk/hingham/images/dscf4619.jpg)

I haven't been able to find if Henry himself is buried there, but it seems his sister Alice is.
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 26, 2020, 11:10:37 PM
There were some other Lovells a few generations on that were more prominent...
And several of them are buried here, their tombs with full colour coats of arms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter_and_St_Paul,_East_Harling#Tombs

And this Thomas Lovell was Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1485.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Lovell

But I can't work out how they are related to our Lovell. Could be distant cousins, and their heraldry might be completely different.
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 26, 2020, 11:36:43 PM
Another Lovell, who died in 1487.
His heraldry features a crowned lion - black on white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell

And an earlier Baron Morley who died in 1416 features the same lion, according to wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Morley,_4th_Baron_Morley

EDIT - Yes, the black lion is Morley.

EDIT - what have we here? His father, with heraldry? Though this page doesn't seem to recognise Henry, though it does his sister Alice...
https://gw.geneanet.org/lard?lang=en&pz=jean+charles&nz=terlinden&p=william&n=lovel
Lineage of Barons Morely, ending with our Henry's parents for some reason...
https://gw.geneanet.org/lard?lang=en&pz=jean+charles&nz=terlinden&m=RLM&i1=62570&t1=1&i2=62631&t2=2&lim=6

Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 26, 2020, 11:54:28 PM
Another Lovell, who died in 1487.
His heraldry features a crowned lion - black on white.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell

And an earlier Baron Morley who died in 1416 features the same lion, according to wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Morley,_4th_Baron_Morley

Ah, the famous "Dog!"

And looking at the national archives the same lion crops up from Lord Morley at Crécy, so I guess the Lovells adopted that!

(https://cdn.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/01150906/020.jpg)

It also looks like the unmodified Lovel arms are "barry nebuly or and gules" (I've cropped this from Wikipedia, if anyone has a clearer version!), so I'd assume that'd feature *somewhere* too. (Though it could be that Henry's branch of the family chose not to use it. I'm hoping that the different spellings of Lovel and Lovell aren't two totally different families too, because that could complicate things a bunch!)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ior85HS.png)

Looking at this link, it looks like the British Library has a manuscript with the coat of arms for Henry Lovel specifically (or at least the arms of "Lorde Morley" in the 1480s!) but unfortunately doesn't have an image on their website!

https://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/record.asp?MSID=5729&CollID=16&NStart=190210


If you don't mind me asking, are you looking into the Battle of Dixmude by the way?
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 27, 2020, 12:11:36 AM
It also looks like the unmodified Lovel arms are "barry nebuly or and gules" (I've cropped this from Wikipedia, if anyone has a clearer version!), so I'd assume that'd feature *somewhere* too

(https://i.imgur.com/Ior85HS.png)


Ah, you got there the same time as me! See the last edit at the end of my last post.

Where did you get that image from on wikipedia though?



So I think we have....

Lovell
(https://gw.geneanet.org/public/img/media/deposits/53/1d/2240400/medium.gif)
(Henry's father's arms)

Morley
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Sir_Thomas_de_Morley%2C_4th_Baron_Morley%2C_KG.png/1024px-Sir_Thomas_de_Morley%2C_4th_Baron_Morley%2C_KG.png)
(Henry's mother's arms - she was the heiress of the 6th Baron Morley, so Henry's father married her to become the 7th, and Henry was the 8th.)


The Francis Lovell  (d. 1487) I found earlier, whoever he was, had both of these in his arms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 27, 2020, 12:24:21 AM
Ah, you got there the same time as me! See the last edit at the end of my last post.

Hah I was too quick on the draw hitting the post button there!  lol

Where did you get that image from on wikipedia though?

I cropped it from a stained glass window which gets linked in the description page for Francis Lovel's coat-of-arms from the Order of the Garter. Interestingly it says that *his* crowned-lion-rampant is from the Burnell family rather than the Morley one, but it could just be that it was a popular motif:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sir_Francis_Lovell,_1st_Viscount_Lovell,_KG.png


Edit: Done some more searching and looks like Henry Parker, 10th Baron Morley, our Henry Lovell's nephew has some more documented coats of arms:

(https://i.imgur.com/e5xkEGv.png)

Based on Charlie's research, we know the 2nd quarter is the Morley arms, and we can guess that the third quarter in that case must be the Lovell ones (from his mother, the Baroness), where Francis Lovell has the same white-on-blue lions going on as well

So with that in mind, I'd assume that our Henry Morley would probably combine a quartered Lovell/Holand, with the black-on-white crowned lion of Morley.

(Double Edit: Here's the armorial I got that coat-of-arms from: https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00001647/images/index.html?seite=22 )
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Atheling on January 27, 2020, 07:10:58 AM
Stuart,

I'll check the books later on today for you.
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 27, 2020, 07:22:05 AM
@happychappy Dixmuide was the starting point for all this yep
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Atheling on January 27, 2020, 08:35:02 AM
Hi mate,

Where is Morley?

It might be on one of the three Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses booklets I have but I will need the name of the county as this is how the books are indexed(?)

No luck.

The best the Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses can do is Thomas Lovell (fought at Bosworth).

Arms- Argent a chevron Azure between 3 squirell segant Gules a crescent Or for difference on the bend.

Sorry mate.
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: pete17 on January 27, 2020, 08:17:12 PM
This is what I have:

' the heading is headed 'My Lord Morley'. The last Lord Morley, d 1442, his daughter married William Lovel, styled Lord Morley  d 1476. their son Henry d.1489 and his sister and heir marries William Parker who was living in 1504 and recognised as Lord Morley in 1520.

Morley arms:
A beast Argent, head of a hound, forelegs with cloven hooves Or, hind part and tail of lion, main and tip of tail Or, two short smooth pointed forward curved horns Or, collar, chain and ring Or. Livery colours red, fringe red and green.

cheers, Pete
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Breazer on January 29, 2020, 09:04:02 AM
Not really helping, just wanted to say I think its great how you go about working this all out to make sure everything is as acurate as can be. It's nice to witness  ;)
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Atheling on January 29, 2020, 10:27:03 AM
Not really helping, just wanted to say I think its great how you go about working this all out to make sure everything is as acurate as can be. It's nice to witness  ;)

It's always satisfying to get things as right as possible with Late Med. stuff. Stuart is a master at this  8)
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Breazer on January 29, 2020, 11:26:22 PM
It's always satisfying to get things as right as possible with Late Med. stuff. Stuart is a master at this  8)
I follow his blog for quite some time now and I always love the work he puts in! I'm curious to see this future miniature appear there!
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 30, 2020, 07:19:30 AM
‘So with that in mind, I'd assume that our Henry Morley would probably combine a quartered Lovell/Holand, with the black-on-white crowned lion of Morley.’

Would that be just a case of splitting the arms down the middle or overlaying the Lion on top of the Lovell/Holland arms?

Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 30, 2020, 07:21:58 AM
In the same way the 1st viscount Lovell (of Stoke fame) has done here with the Morley lion?
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 30, 2020, 07:24:06 AM
I also found Graham Turner had this painting of Lovell which I wasn’t aware of.
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 30, 2020, 07:21:17 PM
Hi again!

I've been doing a bit more digging to try and work out how the arms would be laid out, and also to work out the relationship between our Baron Morley, and Francis Lovell.

So it looks like Francis Lovell (Viscount Lovell, Richard III's 'dog') is Henry Lovell's cousin, where the family splits into the main Lovell branch, and the Morley branch after the 7th Baron Lovell.

I've put together a (slightly scruffy, sorry!) family tree for the Barons Lovell, up to the 2nd Baron Lovell, just to make some more sense of the inheritances and components of the coats of arms:

(https://i.imgur.com/cjfJDWa.png)

I've put the Barons Lovell in orange, and Barons Morley in blue for convenience!

So for Francis Lovell's coat of arms, where he inherits the titles of Baron Lovell and Baron Holand from his father, he keeps their components in his arms in the first and third quarters in the top-left and bottom-left respectively. He later inherited the title of Baron D'eyncourt (Deincourt), and Baron Grey of Rotherfield from his grandmother, so her arms are in his second quarter at the top-right (Deincourt) and fourth quarter at the bottom-right (Grey). The escutcheon in the middle of his arms with the crowned lion is for his ownership of Acton Burnell Castle inherited from way back from when the 2nd Baron Lovell married the heiress of the castle from the Burnell family.

(and here's the arms for ol' Francis Lovell, for reference)
(http://wappenwiki.org/images/thumb/e/ed/Francis_Lovell.svg/516px-Francis_Lovell.svg.png)

(Hopefully I explained that ok! 150-year spans of feudal inheritance are a bit of a mess!)

So while Francis as the head of the senior branch of the family got most of the titles, his uncle William did not. So we can assume that (to start) William Lovell used a quartered Lovell/Holand coat of arms:
(https://i.imgur.com/iKQo1t5.png)

Then marrying the heiress of the Morley family, he would have been entitled to take her coat of arms (the crowned black lion on a white field) into his own. My understanding is that as husband, he would be able to modify his arms by adding the Morley arms as an Escutcheon in the middle of his own coat of arms (I've hastily put together a mock-up in MS Paint!)

(https://i.imgur.com/9R1FsWu.png)

So their heirs, our Henry, and his sister Alice, having inherited their mother's title of Baron(ess) Morley would now be entitled to quarter their father's arms with their mother's. So I think it would look something like this (again sorry for the hasty MS Paint recreation!):

(https://i.imgur.com/JS9doCU.png)

Admittedly a lot of this is just speculation, in between the family tree, reverse-engineering Henry Parker (10th Baron Morley)'s coat of arms, and using this link from the Heraldry Society around priorities for quartering arms:
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/quartering/

Hopefully it's helpful and not too chaotic though!

Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on January 30, 2020, 07:45:13 PM
Wow, great work!

So are you saying the Morley black lion and the black lion on Francis' arms are different?

I was going to ask, why would Francis have the Morley lion, especially if Baron Morley was still alive?
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: HappyChappy439 on January 30, 2020, 07:53:37 PM
Wow, great work!

So are you saying the Morley black lion and the black lion on Francis' arms are different?

I was going to ask, why would Francis have the Morley lion, especially if Baron Morley was still alive?

Yup! Rather confusingly both the Burnell family and the Morley family have a crowned Black Lion on a white field as their coat of arms! So while Francis got the Burnell one, Henry got the Morley one. I guess it was just a popular choice!

Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on January 30, 2020, 08:11:37 PM
Wow that’s some excellent reasoning right there, thank you very much  :)

English heraldry just goes bonkers in this period and on - leading to some painting challenges, it’s a good job heraldic barding was no longer a regular feature !

The French seem to be far less precious about displaying all of their lineage.

Thanks very much, I really appreciate it.

Stuart
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Stuart on September 02, 2020, 12:32:23 PM
It’s been a bit of a while but eventually every figure has its time.....(looks st lead pile) mostly.
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Atheling on September 02, 2020, 12:42:54 PM
A real beauty Stuart  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Romark on September 02, 2020, 12:57:17 PM
Awesome job mate :-*
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: HappyChappy439 on September 02, 2020, 01:07:12 PM
Amazing work! Those first and fourth quarters must've been fiddly to do, but you've done an excellent job with them!
Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Griefbringer on September 02, 2020, 05:53:03 PM
Jolly good looking paint job!

And if you are feeling extra masochistic, there is option to paint a dismounted version of the same figure, as found in the Perry Yorkist foot command pack. Actually, I intend to paint the same figure as a Swiss officer at some point, but that is another story...

Title: Re: Henry Lovell, 8th Baron Morley d.1489 Heraldry ?
Post by: Charlie_ on September 02, 2020, 06:18:04 PM
Superb, I'm going to have to re-read this thread now to remember how we decided on the correct heraldry!

And he's not even converted at all is he, just straight out of the box.