Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: pauld on February 01, 2020, 01:41:49 PM
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Just a heads up, this very good lavishly illustrated book is on offer at The Works for only £7
(https://d1w7fb2mkkr3kw.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/lrg/9781/8483/9781848329416.jpg)
https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/world-history-books/greece-and-rome-at-war/9781848329416 (https://www.theworks.co.uk/p/world-history-books/greece-and-rome-at-war/9781848329416)
an excellent read and painting reference
May be in the physical shops too?
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Great tip....thanks....on its way to my library
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Is this book's contents the same (in part) as his Roman Army book?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61TGxIaBdNL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
And also his book on Greece:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61QsLLv74cL._SX371_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
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I can't comment on the 'new edition' other than to mention that any updates on the original must have been made without Mr Connolly's input, given that he died in 2012. I see from Wikipedia that the book was initially published in 1991, and that a revised edition was issued in 1998. My own copy - the original - consists ,at least in large part, of the content of the two earlier separate works on Greece and Rome, but does not include the complete text of either. It is possible that the revised and / or new edition add further material form those two books. The best way to be sure of this would be to examine a copy, which I intend to do when I have a chance.
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having had the privilege of listening to Peter Connolly giving a lecture,
at Warwick University, & getting him to autograph my copy, I can thoroughly
recommend the book. If it is not yet in your library... Get it!
By the way he was a lovely guy, even though he nearly took the heads off
the front rows in the lecture hall, when he demonstrated his reconstruction
of a sarrissa.
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having had the privilege of listening to Peter Connolly giving a lecture,
at Warwick University, & getting him to autograph my copy, I can thoroughly
recommend the book. If it is not yet in your library... Get it!
By the way he was a lovely guy, even though he nearly took the heads off
the front rows in the lecture hall, when he demonstrated his reconstruction
of a sarrissa.
:D
awesome !
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I don't share the prevailing admiration for this fellow. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims in his writing, and his logic doesn't always stand up to scrutiny. I'd say look out for John Warry's book if you want a good intro to classical ancients.
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Any way, these books contain some wonderful pictures and remember me my start in the hobby.....around the 80's. o_o
And don't forget the 3th one with the ennemies of Rome (Italians, carthaginians and celts). ;)
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I don't share the prevailing admiration for this fellow. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims in his writing, and his logic doesn't always stand up to scrutiny. I'd say look out for John Warry's book if you want a good intro to classical ancients.
Which John Warry book are you referring to?
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I imagine that he is referring to Warry's excellent book, Warfare in the Classical World. The cover of my 1995 copy looks like this:
(http://images.paperbackswap.com/l/41/7941/9780806127941.jpg)
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That's the one. Lovely intro.
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Yes, that three book series was inspiring stuff when I was a boy. Nevermind that I got some wrong ideas about tunic colors for the Romans.
Any way, these books contain some wonderful pictures and remember me my start in the hobby.....around the 80's. o_o
And don't forget the 3th one with the ennemies of Rome (Italians, carthaginians and celts). ;)
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Yes, that three book series was inspiring stuff when I was a boy. Nevermind that I got some wrong ideas about tunic colors for the Romans.
How are/were the tunic colours wrong?
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I have both, Warry's book in a french translation, Connolly's in the 1981 edition. Yes Peter Connolly may have been sometimes slightly out of the mainstream scholar interpretation of ancient sources (spartan unit organization was it?). Anyway, he was ALSO such a gifted artist! so much more than Angus Mc Bride who just didn't know how to draw a human body. And take his third century roman cataphractarius picture: he was way ahead of his time, the Phil Barker and WRG times, when this military dress was rejected as invention... until everybody discovered that this was the most probable dress of these soldiers at the time, the Dura Europos graffito being probably a Persian or Palmyrenian variant. Nobody did miniatures of this at the time, everybody following Barker, but now this is the other way round. Geat man Mr Connolly.
Philippe
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Macdonald Phoebus Ltd 1981
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Yes, his artwork is incredible!
I hope the originals have been preserved.
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I have both, Warry's book in a french translation, Connolly's in the 1981 edition. Yes Peter Connolly may have been sometimes slightly out of the mainstream scholar interpretation of ancient sources (spartan unit organization was it?). Anyway, he was ALSO such a gifted artist! so much more than Angus Mc Bride who just didn't know how to draw a human body. And take his third century roman cataphractarius picture: he was way ahead of his time, the Phil Barker and WRG times, when this military dress was rejected as invention... until everybody discovered that this was the most probable dress of these soldiers at the time, the Dura Europos graffito being probably a Persian or Palmyrenian variant. Nobody did miniatures of this at the time, everybody following Barker, but now this is the other way round. Geat man Mr Connolly.
Philippe
I’d never read that criticism of Angus McBride’s work before. I love his paintings and illustrations. Many artists develop a certain ‘style of portrayal’ and McBride’s was strong and authentic to character. Of course, your mileage may vary. Peter Connolly was also brilliant.
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Not many people dare scratch Mc Bride's reputation, so let me be more precise. I don't say that he was bad. Some of his works are stunning, in a quite rigid way though. On the shiny side of the mountain: his work about African ancient civilizations, and some old osprey men at arms volumes like: 57 the zulu war, or 109 Ancient Armies of the Middle East. But have a look at the other side: picture the gross perspective errors in 125, Amies of Islam plate G3, 184 Polish Armies I plate A4, 188 Polish Armies II plate E1 and 2: poor John Sobiesky looking like a dwarf and his janissary having ape-long arms if you just deploy them! 137 The Scythians plate B2, this one is frankly wrong proportionately, Elite series 30 Attila and the Nomad Hordes plate E the Avars, were 1 and 3 have wrong body proportions and so forth! I have been a student in a very selective art academy in Paris, years ago, the Académie Julian- école d'art Penninghem, and I can assure you that such works would not have made it for the first three month round of selective evaluation! A gifted artist no doubt, but an amateur.
Philippe
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Out of interest, where can we see your work as a former art student?
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Now there may be some kind of explanations: first of all is what french artists call being "charette": after weeks of silence the phone calls for several different contracts altogether and you don't sleep for nights at hard work! quality may suffer from that. I suppose the popularity of Mr. Mc Bride put him in such situation often. Next possibility, related by the way, is of a second hand, out of MB's school, so to say, like Rembrandt's, which would explain some non-osprey paintings that are frankly ugly. I don't know.
But this is not to say that in detail his paintings had not very nice parts, some faces, some costumes: they did really!
And we don't speak about historical mistakes because this is not meaningful in our perspective! But Peter Connolly was also an historian by the way!
Philippe
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I'm hoping P Connolly's book is good because I just bought an old copy on Ebay.
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I had the pleasure of a long conversation with McBride once. I think he'd have been very open to any criticism fairly offered; seemed to bring to the job that devotion that marks the best of us.
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Belgian
You can see it in some old french (available in Belgium too) magazines and in my old Slingshot article about Yar Lung Tibetans. But I never pretended to be anything else than an amateur myself, often making the same mistakes, so that I can detect them in other's works, and much less gifted than Mc Bride of course. If I gave another impression, I'm sorry for that.
It's just that I was trained about proportions, and I think I can comment on them: errors are facts, not opinions.
I do respect your affection and admiration for his work as a whole, because one takes an artist for his main qualities and accept his imperfections.
Philippe
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FierceKitty
I would have loved to meet him myself, and if so would have made my comments with respect. I'm reacting against some blind adulation and fandom, not against the artist himself. And it's just personal.
Philippe
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Belgian
You can see it in some old french (available in Belgium too) magazines and in my old Slingshot article about Yar Lung Tibetans. But I never pretended to be anything else than an amateur myself, often making the same mistakes, so that I can detect them in other's works, and much less gifted than Mc Bride of course. If I gave another impression, I'm sorry for that.
It's just that I was trained about proportions, and I think I can comment on them: errors are facts, not opinions.
I do respect your affection and admiration for his work as a whole, because one takes an artist for his main qualities and accept his imperfections.
Philippe
Philippe, thanks no was only really interested in seeing your work hoping of discovering some more interesting pieces of historical artwork. Although I think your criticism of the artist being discussed might be a bit harsh given his talent and amount of artwork he made and books he illustrated.
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FierceKitty
I would have loved to meet him myself, and if so would have made my comments with respect. I'm reacting against some blind adulation and fandom, not against the artist himself. And it's just personal.
Philippe
I didn't think you were being disrespectful to anyone. :)
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I hold Peter Connolly and Angus McBride personally responsible for my lead mountain and I’d like to know how I can invoice their estates.
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A gifted artist no doubt, but an amateur.
Mr. McBride was no amateur and to suggest it in such an offhand manner is insulting to his memory. I acknowledge your critical opinion of certain works but it remains that: opinion. Not fact. We’re all entitled to our opinions about the merits of art.
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I'm hoping P Connolly's book is good because I just bought an old copy on Ebay.
I have some of his other works and they are both a joy to read and to look at! You will not be disappointed.
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Angus McBride did a very wide variety of art (much of which I am still discovering and am surprised at how wide and varied the subject matter).
However, some of the bare heads are disproportionate (misshapen) - especially the placement of the eyes.
They are much like the bare headed Republican (Caesarian) heads by Mark Copplestone that Wargames Foundy sells.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS9ARJqsZCaGFuRzOTPLunWMuTF7_7gcCBcX80v8JuHhKCrHRrW)
(http://www.beginnersschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/FemaleHead-Lines-1-1024x549.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/4c/41/d54c41ea36c70aca809f618d7b782171.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/80/90/b8/8090b80e8ad097eaee3b5648befcf3f9.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/78/73/04/78730413b1330eab74db1777c822434e.jpg)
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1505/0474/products/CR021_1024x1024.png?v=1498137669)
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I was harsh in some ways yes. My harshness was not against the memory of Angus Mc Bride but against the fetish-like cult he produced in many.
I do have admiration for the scope of his work and his dedication to it. But sincerely try to find the scale issues that some of his works present in other artist's like Embleton, Sumner or Hook, just to mention a few Osprey contributors! you can't. This is professionalism. I'm sorry but this is a fact. And Ragbones, with due respect, an error of proportion is a fact, not an opinion. What is an opinion, and highly respectable, is the admiration for Mc Bride's work. I share it with you, not the least because I know how difficult it is to achieve one. We could talk also for instance of his great use of colours! Of the vividness of some of his scenes, despite a certain crispness that I maintain is a "marque de fabrique" of his style.
Philippe
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And I can be harsh with others too!
let's take just one example. There is not many militay painters I respect and admire more than the late Eugène leliepvre (Osprey books on Louis XV troops). We deal here with an official artist: Peintre des Armées (official painter of the french Military) whose art is exposed in french museums. THE french military painter if there was one after ww2.
Look at his work in Osprey 313: I think he may have been in a hurry for other more recognized works, or maybe he didn't consider it worth of effort, but this is bad, just sketches! I mean bad for such a great artist: I would like to sketch pictures like him in watercolor! But mediocre for him it is. And unprofessional.
That also is a fact.
Philippe
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I'll say that I've painted my Republican Romans to match his illustrations, just for the sake of nostalgia, and because it looks good.
(https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/860607895398268357/8750771AB094E94778427680EF769E28A77797A6/?imw=637&imh=358&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=true)
But, I've come across a fair bit of commentary such as this form time to time:
The obvious fault as such is the colour given to the Roman tunics - we know now that unbleached linen was the predominant cloth used (i.e. off-white). Even the idea or red for centurions is incorrect I believe; their greater pay allowed them to purchase tunics of better cloth and any colour (though red was lucky in Roman belief).
Whether this criticism of Connolly true or not, I don't really care... just throwing it out there for the general discussion.
How are/were the tunic colours wrong?
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I love the art of both Connolly and McBride.
Each is unique and each covering historical subjects of interest.
From all I’ve read there is no specific evidence for Roman tunics either red or white or linen or fluorescent orange.
However, there IS a period history that tells the tale of a group of Greeks who travel to Persia to do some sightseeing who are all wearing red tunics. It was written by a guy called Xenophon.
That was 370 BC and there were about 10000 of those red tunics.
If the Greeks can dig up that many at that time, why not the Romans?
I have to say your art is very nice. I also especially like the colours on the rocks.
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I have both, Warry's book in a french translation, Connolly's in the 1981 edition. Yes Peter Connolly may have been sometimes slightly out of the mainstream scholar interpretation of ancient sources (spartan unit organization was it?). Anyway, he was ALSO such a gifted artist! so much more than Angus Mc Bride who just didn't know how to draw a human body. And take his third century roman cataphractarius picture: he was way ahead of his time, the Phil Barker and WRG times, when this military dress was rejected as invention... until everybody discovered that this was the most probable dress of these soldiers at the time, the Dura Europos graffito being probably a Persian or Palmyrenian variant. Nobody did miniatures of this at the time, everybody following Barker, but now this is the other way round. Geat man Mr Connolly.
Philippe
Connolly was a fantastic illustrator, his books opened up a new world for me. But I will disagree with your comment about Mc Bride. He was also fanstastic, he just had his own style, he liked those bulky stumpy bodies, but there was nothing wrong about his anatomy and he was prolific as an artist. They both used gouache in a masterful way.
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Hi Captain
Once again I didn't want to offend anyone, that was just my opinion held for years in reserve due to overwhelming adulation. But I'm still stunned by some of his more personnal works. And also recognized elsewhere his mastery of colours. I totally respect your opinion. My words were harsh also because of my earlier experience in an art school were you learn modesty and exigence out of constant criticism from your teachers. I have shown exigence. Let's face modesty again: I would be very proud to have just a part of Angus Mc Brides's qualities.
Philippe
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As a matter of fact, and to show that I really feel modest regarding my own failings in comparison to Mr Mc Bride as an artist, here are a few of my works as an amateur. You'll see why I didn't try to become pro myself seriously. Stiff bodies, errors of proportion. That is if did it well here and you can see the pictures...
Philippe
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Philippe - sacre bleu! :)
I bought about all the Ospreys that Angus McBride ever illustrated.
I started with MAA 57, The Zulu War, which as an expatriate Scot resident in South Africa, he not only illustrated but also wrote. I won this as the school reading prize in 1976 when it had just been published lol
I still have it. It's still brilliant. Has anyone ever painted better Zulus? I doubt it. Do they look like photos of actual Zulus of the period? Not a bit. But that's why it's art, not photography.
To me, his illustrations of fighting men from all eras and settings were simply incomparable. Someone once called him the Norman Rockwell of military history illustration, and I think that's right. Like Rockwell, his figures were not realistic - they were sumptuous caricatures. Like Rockwell, he had a very definite and distinctive style. All illustrators do. You can recognise a Graham Turner painting or a Gerry Embleton. Or a Peter Dennis for that matter. Angus McBride had a very definite style. Not only technically brilliant - effortlessly capturing the attitude of bodies, limbs, fingers and facial expressions - but much more importantly, unerringly nailing the distinctive flavour of whatever period and setting he turned his hand to. His every figure oozes perfect and evocative character.
Did he occasionally, in his many thousands of paintings, get his proportion or perspective slightly off? Almost certainly. Given the huge volume and speed of his output, it's inevitable not every painting was going to be completely 100% perfect. Do I care? Not even a bit. Because 99.9% of the time he was spot on. And at the end of the day, it's art, not photography. He's painting pictures not just to illustrate the detail of clothing, equipment, weapons etc, but to create and convey a powerful sense of mood, period and place. It's interpretative. It's impressionistic. There's no such thing as 'right'. He tended towards the chunky, because he was (by and large) illustrating men from earlier eras, where people were much shorter and much more muscular - particularly those trained in or accustomed to the use of weapons. If I look at his illustrations of more modern subjects, by and large, they are a lot less square-set.
Also, like all artists, the quality of his output varied depending on how much the subject matter interested him - and I suspect by how highly he rated the publication in which his colour plates were to feature.
I have a couple of hardback books by Tim Newark, ('Warlords of' this, that and the other) which frankly are not great books. But then I only bought them for the McBride colour plates. But it's noticeable that his paintings in these books are just not as good. They're much more sketchy than usual. Not executed with the same elan and intensity at all. He hardly even bothers with the usual delightful background detail which is part of what makes most of his painting so wonderfully effective and evocative. You get the impression the artist's heart was just not in these projects. Or maybe he was just being pushed to deliver in too short a timescale.
Angus McBride was also a highly decent man - kind and unbelievably generous with his time for such a busy artist. I wrote to him (via Osprey), 30+ years ago, asking his advice on techniques for painting in gouache when I was dabbling myself. Within a couple of weeks I received a long reply, handwritten in sepia ink, airmailed back from the great man in South Africa, offering lots of information and great enthusiasm and encouragement.
As others have said, I think he was probably single-handedly responsible for inspiring a huge number of wargamers and modellers or my generation and others. He is sadly missed by many admirers. So don't be too surprised or upset if people react to your (mild) criticism of his works :)
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Captain Blood
I am 100% ok with your opinion: the little mistakes were due to lack of time; his human qualities... everything.
And as for Norman Rockwell, well he is the Master of Masters for me.
Nice to write to you again, some years after our Sharp Practice comments...wasn't it?
Philippe
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here are a few of my works as an amateur.
I tried downloading, to have a shufti, but no luck.
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Second try.
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It goes a bit further, but then wants me to download a new app to view it.
I didn't want to do that.
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@has.been.
Very nice. You have an excellent style - a bit more than an amateur I'd say ;-)
HW
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You are very kind but no. I'm just an amateur with a little guifted hand. I compared it with would be pros and believe me: it showed. Now this is not to say that I could not have become one with much work. And I mean one much less popular thant Angus Mc Bride.The very unsecure life going with it was simply not my cup of tea and I now think that this was a good decision to stop the school early.
I became a french teacher and my pupils love littles explanation drawings.
Philippe