Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: bluewillow on February 07, 2020, 09:18:20 AM
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Great game earlier in the week with a French mate, he used if lovely Carthaginians vs my Republican Romans. The Roman maniple legion formations prevailed l! A few pics from the game, the full report on my blog
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P2IaXsrzydM/Xj0V6g-4uaI/AAAAAAAAVkg/UuIOkp4liF0ZxtzwRf5ZJp0D6P5tvBfSQCLcBGAsYHQ/s280/2AD106A9-3DEC-4D76-B973-7F3C8B51DABA.jpeg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9Y7xmyT3nNA/Xj0TW--AnkI/AAAAAAAAVjs/CuoW1r03O5c592qoMiYEHuZNkcKxAMxuACEwYBhgL/s280/IMG_0786.HEIC)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jGMiV_WNHu8/Xj0V5UgstsI/AAAAAAAAVkc/89o9xP9WQ0ovEqoa6knJSJ8r-BLeXVU7QCEwYBhgL/s280/0C5E9418-EA4A-47A8-8940-6134ED6CDB2E.jpeg)
https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/2020/02/republican-roman-vs-carthaginian-battle.html?m=1 (https://stormandconquest.blogspot.com/2020/02/republican-roman-vs-carthaginian-battle.html?m=1)
Cheers
Matt
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Beautiful game. Bravo!
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Excellent!
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Hmm, looks like fun but the pictures came out a bit blurry for me!
I see some Renegade Miniatures in there, if I am not mistaken? Great minis - I ended up selling mine though as they didn't match my Victrix plastic aesthetic!
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Beautiful game. Bravo!
Cheers, it was fun, mostly because for the first time my manipular units passed disorder tests for replacement
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Excellent!
Thanks
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Hmm, looks like fun but the pictures came out a bit blurry for me!
I see some Renegade Miniatures in there, if I am not mistaken? Great minis - I ended up selling mine though as they didn't match my Victrix plastic aesthetic!
The forum plays around with large images and makes them blurry, or too small, a lot clearer on the blog
My republicans are first corps, with Victrix Gauls, Phillipe's army I am not sure of the manufacturer except his Gauls which are warlord plastics
Cheers
Matt
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The forum plays around with large images and makes them blurry, or too small, a lot clearer on the blog
I think it was a computer problem, as I opened them from the blog. I switched to the MacBook and they're much more clear now!
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Where are those pikemen from?
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Where are those pikemen from?
Renegade pike, lovely miniatures
Cheers
Matt
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Renegade pike, lovely miniatures
Cheers
Matt
Which, apparently, are no longer available.
http://www.renegademiniatures.com/
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Renegade pike, lovely miniatures
Cheers
Matt
The question was rather about where the men would have come from to end up, in defiance of history, on a Punic Wars battlefield.
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The question was rather about where the men would have come from to end up, in defiance of history, on a Punic Wars battlefield.
Good question! In the rules they are treated as long spear, not pike. I am unaware of any pike on a Punic wars battlefield. Philip V of Macedon sent 4000 men, presumably fighting at Zama who may or may not have been armed with a long spear.
Cheers
Matt
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I don't think many scholars buy that claim any more.
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Yes, Macedonians a Zama is in doubt, a bit of Roman propaganda!
Cheers
Matt
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Well, it seemed like it was a bit of confusion about Xanthipuus' reforms and what "Macedonian" style actually meant. The old view was that they must have been pike armed like phalangites. However, the more modern view is that "Macedonain" style simply means a combined arms approach using cavalry, heavy infantry, light infantry, and elephants together.
It is nice from a wargamer perspecitve to have a Carthaginian Sacred band armed with Pikes to give the Carthaginians an extra bit of Umpf. However, it is likely that such a unit did not actually exist. We get to flavor it to taste though!
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OK, let's give our Sacred Bands BAR for the same reasons.... lol
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I think it is always a mistake to assume we know exactly the composition of an ancient army, we are frequently working with quite limited information. The Carthaginians in particular are recorded through the lens of hostile Roman accounts and their largely successful efforts to eliminate the entire culture. As wargames we have the job of filling in the composition of an army where the information is absent or very sketchy; we cannot just leave part of a battle line empty! Mostly this means we go with the most likely option or the nearest parallel that we do know about. This does however leave room to legitimately field in our miniature armies a certain amount of “maybes” or “what-ifs” as additional colour.
The idea of pikemen in the Carthaginian army is not supported by any solid evidence, certainly the idea of a Macedonian phalanx at Zama seems unlikely (for a start the Romans would have lost 😀) However, earlier Punic armies did contain a fair number of Greek mercenaries, who is to say some of them were not early adopters of the Macedonian style equipment. Most hoplite style soldiers did evolve into either pike users or into thureophoroi (whatever they actually were...) So, if someone rocks up with a Carthaginian army that has wall to wall pikes I would be annoyed but just a few units? No problem.
(Nice game report btw, those First Corps Romans look great en masse.)
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OK, let's give our Sacred Bands BAR for the same reasons.... lol
Well, to be fair there is an academic debate about just what is meant by 'Macedonian" style in Xanthippus' reforms of the Carthaginian army. The consensus is combined arms, but for a long time scholars did not believe that. Therefore, older ranges/army lists of Carthaginians forces make sense to have Phalangites as a limited unit type.
Secondly, we know a few things about the Carthaginian military:
1. They were not above stealing a good idea. After all, in Sicily they decided to adopt the Greek Hoplite formation after seeing its effectiveness at the battle of Himera. Or so the legend goes.
2. The Macedonian Phalanx was a very popular military formation in the Eastern Mediterranean. Therefore, the Carthaginians probably had been exposed to it in their travels and via their trade routes.
3. They used Mercenaries heavily after the Sicilian Wars and Greek Hoplites and Macedonian Phalangites were known mercenaries.
That being said, there is little evidence that the Carthaginians "Adopted" this approach, but ancient history has huge gaps in it where the only real answer is.... we just do not know. Currently, the scholarly consensus does not support the idea, but new evidence may change "current" thinking.
On a related note, the idea that Carthage heavily used "Mercenaries" maybe an overstatement. After all, what Rome called Mercenaries may have been troops from Allied client kingdoms (Like Numidians), subject people such as North Africans, and allied tribes (such as Iberians and Gauls). To call them all "Mercenary" is probably a gross over-simplification of the structure of the Punic armies. The Carthaginian army was probably no more 'Merceanry" than a Roman army. However, I digress as that is a topic for another post and time.