Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: tomrommel1 on March 12, 2020, 10:12:34 AM
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I am thinking of starting an armored cavalry platoon for my Vietnam War project.
I could find the ORBAT of such a platoon and I know that 11 passengers fit in an ordinary M113, but how many would fit in an M113 ACAV , couldn't find any info on that. I suppose less as it has to carry the additional armor shields and ammo for the M60 and 50 cal?
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Not exactly the best source...
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jGV7aZTUQsA/XDKA2u4doKI/AAAAAAAAElA/0jrgAK1CqG4k95CZORrjXhJAn-13S6qJgCLcBGAs/s1600/firefight.png)
But the above has an ACAV carrying:
Sergeant
Driver
Gunner
Gunner
The crew of a USMP V100 is similarly light, but gave lots of room for sandbags, ammo and picking up injured and crews from disabled vehicles.
They appear to be used as light tanks/armoured cars rather than APCs.
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Thanks that helps a bit . So no use of the ACAV as a troop carrier?!
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Thanks that helps a bit . So no use of the ACAV as a troop carrier?!
They were used by the cavalry to fight from rather than their original intended role as battle taxi. I don't have it any more, but Vietnam Tracks by Simon Dunstan has great info on the cavalry squadron organisation. I think not every M113 in a squadron was converted to an ACAV.
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Really, the ACAV is a role rather than a vehicle, I suspect most US M113s in use in Vietnam ended up with a version of the commander's all round gun shield.
The shields for the M60s might appear on APCs, but as doctrine was to dismount to fight, then possibly not.
ACAVs would be used to extract other crew underfire (assume full eleven under armour, more on top).
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Australian M113 up to 11 plus two crew, although been jammed in one with 14 plus crew.
Cheers
Matt
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Australian M113 up to 11 plus two crew, although been jammed in one with 14 plus crew.
Cheers
Matt
Original or stretch?
Though the original post asked specifically about ACAV.
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Just spotted the entry under vehicles for the M113 ACAV in the above set of rules:
Two crew, eleven passengers, six hangers on (though that would translate to four crew, nine passengers under armour and six hangers on).
[Edit] or six crew (driver, track commander, gunner, loader, gunner, loader)...
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The unit no longer served as a troop transport vehicle. It was used as an assault weapons platform capable of taking the fight to the enemy.
http://www.atroop412cav.com/tools/ACAV/ (http://www.atroop412cav.com/tools/ACAV/)
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Thanks for all the input of knowledge!! Appreciated
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Matt, that depends on the role. If they were carrying troops from an Infantry Battalion, then 10 grunts. If they were the Recce (Assault) Squadron's own Rock Apes, then 8 troopers.
I was in the other squadron, we assisted the infantry battalion, did not have our own generic cargo.
Australian M113 up to 11 plus two crew, although been jammed in one with 14 plus crew.
Cheers
Matt
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http://www.atroop412cav.com/tools/ACAV/ (http://www.atroop412cav.com/tools/ACAV/)
Useful information, thanks.
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ACAV is basically the name for the upgrade kit, and was also used to define the role.
The answer to the question depends on the unit using the vehicle. In a cavalry troop the pure ACAV (replacing the unloved and crappy M114) would have Driver, Commander, two machine-gunners, up to two scouts/loaders passing ammo. In a cavalry platoon there would be also a 'normal' M113 carrying a squad, but how a normal M113 was fitted depend on the unit. .50 shields were common, as Okinawa Turrets, and full ACAV kits too the more they became available. Aalso remember that divisional cavalry squadrons had different organization from the 11th ACR.
Said that in specific occasions Cavalry Troops were used to mechanize infantry companies for specific operations or even specific movements.
As the M113s in mechanized infantry battalions, organizations and tactics changed during the conflict. By late 1966 they operated both dismounting infantry in contact or staying mounted. By 67 with the publication of MACV MACOV report the mounted tactics were officially sanctioned. Pictorial evidence is mixed. I have seen picture of 2-22 (mech inf) M113s with full ACAV kits as early as late 66 and early 67. Also remember that platoons were rarely at full strength due to TDY, illness, casualties, and the likes.
As the hangers on... Yes you can pack plenty of people in an emergency, but is not sometime it was done by default. With a full squad inside and people on the roof the M113 is basically non combat ready. It also invalidated either the purpose of carrying troops inside (protection from small arms) or to carry them on the roof (reducing mine blast effect). Also it was common in Vietnam, if people rode in the troop compartment to keep the roof hatch open to provide a modicum of ventilation.
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My comment about the "hangers on" related to the specific column in the rules above for people on top.
Most commentary on photographs say that afv crew tended to ride on top until contact.
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UVS,
I just thinking loud about the rules. If the rules allowed everything without no ill effect, it was a bit of an 'overkill'.
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I just thinking loud about the rules. If the rules allowed everything without no ill effect, it was a bit of an 'overkill'.
Exposed crew counted as in heavy cover. Plus a 2m climb or jump to get off.
I am trying to remember how much an AFV in Twilight 2000 could carry on the outside.
Rules have moved on in the last 35 years ^__^.