Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pulp => Triumph & Tragedy => Topic started by: Driscoles on July 24, 2009, 07:32:47 AM
-
Hi,
we dont have minimum ranges in the T+T rules book. We solve those things by common sense but I think its definately an important rule that we simply forgot.
So, what do you think are minimum ranges for mortars and ari in a T+T game.
The rules say that guns have no limited ranges. They can shoot all over the table.
You usually play on a 4 x 6 Table.
Thanks for your help and suggestions.
Björn
-
Some time ago Mustasha Pasha and I were playing a WW2 demo game at the Gordon Highlanders Museum in Aberdeen (excellent place, please visit!). We were discussing being able to fire the mortar through trees and one of the guides, an ex soldier, told us that they had been using the mortar in Burma to shell enemy positions and as a round left the tube it hit a bird which was disturbed by the noise. the round exploded and wounded the crew and so in the future they always tried to make a small clearing.
anyway...
I'd suggest that mortars can fire at ranges under say 12inches. That would "look" about right. 2" mortars seem to have a minium range of around 125yrds
-
@Emir:Did you mean that mortars CAN'T fire at under 12".
I don't think that artillery should have a minimum range. The elevation of artillery guns means you could fire point blank if you wanted.
-
@Emir:Did you mean that mortars CAN'T fire at under 12".
I don't think that artillery should have a minimum range. The elevation of artillery guns means you could fire point blank if you wanted.
Firing shrapnel or HE at point blank surely must put the gun crew at risk.
-
@Emir:Did you mean that mortars CAN'T fire at under 12".
I don't think that artillery should have a minimum range. The elevation of artillery guns means you could fire point blank if you wanted.
Firing shrapnel or HE at point blank surely must put the gun crew at risk.
Never said it was a good idea, just that it was possible. ;)
-
I guess it depends on the type of gun you are firing with. However, before we start writing lists which gun has wich minimum range I'd suggest something simpler:
How about minimum range = size of template of gun?
It still looks rather close for my taste but after all this is not reality.
Another possibiltiy is of course minimum range = maximum range of scatter role.
That way no gun's shot can actually fall behind it. That would make some sense, I guess. And it's easy to play, no need to start worrying about too many details.
-
I like your template idea but mortars should have a longer minimum than field guns. How about mortars use the next size template up?
-
I like your template idea but mortars should have a longer minimum than field guns. How about mortars use the next size template up?
No problem with that.
-
Mortars and Howitzers (Not guns) are unable to fire within certain ranges due to the minimum elevation of the weapon. What this distance is varies with the weapon. The Italian Brixia Mortar could go to quite a low elevation, so this would allow closer-in firing. Obviously as said, the minimum range should at least be the blast range of the shell/bomb. Myself I'd probably go for at least double the template size, otherwise the crew could just throw the bombs. ;)
-
To fire a mortar at extremely short range wouldn't you want maximum elevation, rather than minimum, Jim?
I recall seeing a photo once of I think it was Red Devils at Arnhem. They are firing a mortar during close-up street-fighting and the tube is pointing practically at the vertical. Isn't that going to come down near you, rather than a long way off? The caption to the photo said the angle of the tube indicated how close the enemy were they were firing on.
I'm asking, rather than telling, as I have no experience of mortars in real life.
-
Sorry I meant CAN'T
-
Sorry I meant CAN'T
Thought so. What do you think of the ideas so far?
-
I like the ideas but have no conclusion yet.
I remeber that at the Tactica convention the direct ari fire deviated behind the gun. That is silly and we used common sense.
I was thinking of a ruler lenght for mortars. In germany a ruler length is 30 cm. Is that the same in england ?
The large template for ari might be an idea...
-
Our rulers are 12"/30cm, with cm up the one side, and inches up the other (or on opposite faces with the metal type of ruler).
-
30cm sounds good to me. I know there are hundreds of arguments against these close ranges but I think the overall idea should be that this is a game and not reality.
Isn't 12 " the maximum for charge distance also? That would sound reasonable as the mortar crew would probably switch to rifles to fend off any attackers.
-
I have fired a British 2" mortar horizontally. I loaded it, rested the base plate against a tree, pointed it at the target and fired it. Remember that it has a trigger not a fixed firing pin.
Modern 81mm mortars have a minimum range down to about 100m, in WW2 it was about 200m and in WW1 about 300m. The minimum safe range is about 300m so that own troops are not casualties.
-
To fire a mortar at extremely short range wouldn't you want maximum elevation, rather than minimum, Jim?
I recall seeing a photo once of I think it was Red Devils at Arnhem. They are firing a mortar during close-up street-fighting and the tube is pointing practically at the vertical. Isn't that going to come down near you, rather than a long way off? The caption to the photo said the angle of the tube indicated how close the enemy were they were firing on.
I'm asking, rather than telling, as I have no experience of mortars in real life.
You're quite right... I don't have clue where that came from. :?
-
I seem to recall reading years ago that in one of the SAS's hard-fought campaigns - Oman I think - they were defending an outpost and the e enemy were so close they had to physically hold the 82mm mortar virtually at vertical to land the bombs on the enemy. Desperate circumstances call for desperate measures and obviously not recomended for the faint-hearted ;)
-
I seem to recall reading years ago that in one of the SAS's hard-fought campaigns - Oman I think - they were defending an outpost and the e enemy were so close they had to physically hold the 82mm mortar virtually at vertical to land the bombs on the enemy. Desperate circumstances call for desperate measures and obviously not recomended for the faint-hearted ;)
It was the action at Mirbat, Dhofar Province, Oman on 19th July 1972.
(http://www.military-art.com/mall/images/dhm1413.jpg)
http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Desert_song/Mirbat.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mirbat
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61472
The book 'Soldier I SAS' includes a good account of the battle, proportedly by one of the SAS combatants. It does mention one of the troopers holding the mortar to his chest in order to increase the elevation as the Adoo were so close.
-
There was quite a good documentary with re-enacted scenes about that on Channel 5 a few months ago. Worth catching if they show it again, I think.
-
Mirbat! That's the one and that's the book I read it in too :)
I missed the documentary >:( Hopefully it will appear soon on one of the Satellite documentary channels.
-
It was part of a series about special forces. There was one about Operation Barras (Paras, SBS and SAS in Sierra Leone) which was good too.
Edit: Found a website for it...
http://www.specialforcesheroes.com/tv-series.html (http://www.specialforcesheroes.com/tv-series.html)
-
Just saw that epicode : " Last Stand at Oman" on you tube.
Unbelieveable
-
Nice one Björn, the whole thing is on there.
I like it when that one says...
"We... are... in... the... shit."
-
So in special situations the minimum range can be shortened. Would the unit need to pass a score check?
-
That is a good idea. What about this. A ruler length minimum range for the mortar. A succesful scorecheck in special situations to shorten the range if the unit is at least trained or veteran.
And for ari : All shots below ruler length will not deviate but simply miss and vanish out of the game.
Cheers
Björn
-
That is a good idea. What about this. A ruler length minimum range for the mortar. A succesful scorecheck in special situations to shorten the range if the unit is at least trained or veteran.
And for ari : All shots below ruler length will not deviate but simply miss and vanish out of the game.
Cheers
Björn
Do you mean any artillery shots that don't hit, that would have deviated normally, now have no effect?
-
I was thinking of ari shots below minimum range. But I dont know the minimum range yet ( the ruler length for ari is just an idea. We can discuss this gentlemen :) ). A deviation for point blank shots dont make much sense to me.
-
I don't think the shot should vanish, a limit to how far and what direction it deviates makes more sense. Maybe deviate only within 45 degrees of the front of the gun?
-
Deviation to the front is a good idea.
-
If you miss a point blank shot you should extend the line of fire to ruler length (or whatever) and determine forward deviation from that point. An artillery projectile flies in a ballistic curve and it cannot hit level ground below minimum range.
-
Ah, finally Grimnir wakes up. :)
What I meant was that you deviate from the point that you actually tried to hit - but missed - and rightly in a straight line away from the gun. I dont want the shells come short or back to the gun.
Iam not sure but I think twrchtrwyth meant the same.
-
Ah, finally Grimnir wakes up. :)
What I meant was that you deviate from the point that you actually tried to hit - but missed - and rightly in a straight line away from the gun. I dont want the shells come short or back to the gun.
Iam not sure but I think twrchtrwyth meant the same.
Almost, but that it could deviate to the side by only a small degree. Think of a cone in front of the gun, thin end touching the barrel.
I think your idea is a lot easier though, just having forward deviation, it's much more playable.
-
Ah, finally Grimnir wakes up.
What should I do, when I am deemed unworthy to get feedback to my email even though it was you who asked me for suggestions :P
If you calculate deviation from the target below minimum range it would make shooting below minimum range even more predictable than shooting beyond minimum range. Remember that the small calibre artillery in WW1 was usually withdrawn when the enemy came close and the defense was left to rifles and HMGs. The risk of capture was much higher than the possible benefit of shooting at such short distance.
Therefore I think that shooting below minumum range should be punished in some way. Combined forces are about "division of labour". Artillery is a long-range anti-infantry weapon. MGs do the job at short-range. It encourages tactical playing.
In my understanding a deviated hit is a ground hit. A projectile cannot hit the ground at any point below minumum range, unless
a) propulsive force or
b) gravity change.
Unlikely to happen. So the only two options for deviation are
a) the projectile frontally hits another target. It directly hits that target. Any miss - even a near miss - would result in option b)
b) the projectile continues its flight on its ballistic curve and hits the ground when the minimum range is reached. In order to prevent power gaming the projectile should deviate from that point.
Personally I think that a procedure of a) and b) is too complicated. Therefore I would simply it: Either you hit the target directly below minimum range or the projectile misses and hits the ground at minimum range+deviation.
Note that artillery was used at short distance in earlier eras (e.g. canisters in Napoleonic times). However, with improvement of military technology the artillery became capable of shooting at longer distances but also less suitable for shorter distances.
And finally a bit of humor. Citing 'The Creation of the Army':
And the Lord looked upon the INFANTRY and smiled, and forgave them, for he understood that of which they spoke. THEY WERE INFANTRY, BY GOD! and the Artillery were, after all, only bloody Gunners.
;)
-
I think minimum range is an important thing. The mortar is a strong weapon, but it was really hard to handle. Often the users needed 4 shoots to aim. What is about throwing an additional dice and declaring this as the minimum range?
-
We should, however, remember that this is a game and not a copy of reality. Keep it nice and simple.
-
I would second @grimnir, and also keep the rules simple
a minimum range of 30cm or 12 '' is good, deviations should never vanish, no need to fumble with the rules here, they could fall short below minimum range and still not threaten the crew - and this would be a good punishment, since You can easily engage your own troops
but I guess that every reasonable player would limber up his artillery if the enemy closes in at 12'' (given the costs), so basically there is hardly a need for too much work to be put into such a rule - but of course minimum range for high trajectory ordnance like mortars and howitzers
stick to the basics Björn, they are just fine as they are
if in need, you can always make up a heroic action like firing the mortar from the hip (stupid idea) or simply using mortar shells as handgrenades, like in "saving Private Ryan". a scorecheck should do in this case
-
Mortars do not have a "point blank" range as this term is the distance from firearm to target below which to adjustment is made to the sights so indirect fire weapons (e.g. howitzers and mortars) do not have it.
As far as who teststo call fires down upon a position occupied by the troops which is effectively what firing at less that the "book" minimum range, then that would probably rest with the senior commander in the target area or the commander of the formation to which the mortars or artillery belong. Most minimum "safe" ranges are for troops in the open so can be reduced if own troops are dug in.
All rounds should be accounted for - even if they cause "blue on blue" casualties.