Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Rich H on April 13, 2020, 10:23:12 PM
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Heavy metal o_o
Horrible lumpy hull and turret.... great... >:(
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Looking forward to seeing this develop. Me and the old girl shared some good times together. 👍
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Nice :-*
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I better get it right then... :o
(seriously though - If I make a mistake let me know!)
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I better get it right then... :o
(seriously though - If I make a mistake let me know!)
Haha, not likely. Everyone looks forward to your builds :)
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The hull has already been a pig. The upper glacis is curved all over the place.
Also I didn't realise the hull was almost full width to the rear. Going to be 'interesting'
OTOH because they recycled the Centurion suspension units I could too :D
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Looking forward to seeing how you get on with this
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Does this mean someone is going to make 1980s British Army?
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One would assume so or it's going to be pretty lonely...
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Does this mean someone is going to make 1980s British Army?
Empress posted up a interview from Wargamers Illustrated and stated that they plane on doing some 1980's Brits.
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Empress posted up a interview from Wargamers Illustrated and stated that they plane on doing some 1980's Brits.
YES!
Excellent.
Good luck with this.
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Yes indeed, assuming they are Paul Hicks’ sculpts that is. Will happily replace my Gripping Beast Falklands chaps, which are getting very old in the tooth.
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Yes indeed, assuming they are Paul Hicks’ sculpts that is. Will happily replace my Gripping Beast Falklands chaps, which are getting very old in the tooth.
No it will be Tony so you can keep your Gripping Beast ones ;)
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Pity, would love to have seen what Paul could have done.
Did Tony do the 20mm BAOR for Under Fire Miniatures?
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No it will be Tony so you can keep your Gripping Beast ones ;)
Pity, would love to have seen what Paul could have done.
Did Tony do the 20mm BAOR for Under Fire Miniatures?
Almost as important, does he do the rest of the Cold War range in 28mm for UFM?
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I believe he does.
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I believe he does.
More importantly he does all of our ultra moderns so its a good fit ;)
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Bloody lumpy cast turrets :-X :-X :-X
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Bloody lumpy cast turrets :-X :-X :-X
With or without StillBrew?
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Without at the moment. More lumpyness to follow I guess....
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Trust me in real life Stillbrew was an even bigger pain in the arse !
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lol
What mark would be most common?
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going to take a bit of post print fettling on the turret... :?
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The fleet in BFG ( we never called ourselves BAOR) was always updated as a complete package so would pretty much all be the same version. The wagons that were still in UK were older , being mostly for training and demo at Bovington/Lulworth and Warminster.
We never knew what Mark we were crewing. It meant nothing to us. As a guideline we picked out distinctive features like the change of NBC pack from the ‘chicken coup’ type to the full rectangular NBC pack around 1979/80. Also in 1982 the MRS muzzle shroud appeared on the main armament. There were few outward indications of change/upgrade until Stillbrew and/or TOGS was fitted around 1987 . I say and/or because in my regiment we had both fitted together in base workshops in Germany but you can also see just Stillbrew wagons in Germany and of course in Berlin.
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Cool thanks
The drawing I have has the dog kennel and no MRS I guess it' an early one.
I'll go with that for now then add bits to change the mark.
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Needs to be an early 1980's to start with. Say 82.
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Roger that.
In which case then you are well on course.
Don’t forget the splash plate on the upper glaciis as everyone else seems to do in other scales. These were never missing and gave a distinctive appearance to the old wagon. In between the double headlights, not single headlight as in earlier Marks.
If you miss off the MRS Mirror Shroud then be careful to also not have the small MRS light source unit .... a small box to the left of the Gunners sight hold ( when calling left or right it is always viewed from the rear of the AFV). Again this is a common mistake on some other models. 👍
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Is it worth doing a barrel with and without the shroud?
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I would say yes as it defines the time period of its use and extends the time period into which the model can be used ...... i.e. 1980 to 1987.
If you go this way then I would point out that it might be worth considering that the fume extractor changed too. So , in basic terms it’s the earlier L11 main armament with no MRS shroud with a bulkier fume extractor and with MRS fitted a thinner fume extractor. The change of fume extractor was not connected to the MRS just a small upgrade that happened to coincide. I can supply photos if it helps.
Also, just one small detail. With the thermal sleeve .... to be fitted correctly there is an asbestos strip on one side of the sleeve . The thermal sleeve should be fitted so that the asbestos strip runs parallel with the Co-Ax. This was for when the .50 Ranging Gun was fitted to protect the thermal sleeve. Even after the .50 was removed we retained the same thermal sleeve. The Britannia 20mm has it correct , but then goes on to spoil the model as the two tow ropes are way too short.
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Excellent detail ;)
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Happy to help where I can. I’ll be investing in the finished product. 👍
I joined as a young Trooper in 1978 and finished my service in 2000 as Senior Instructor RAC Gunnery School. My last task was to write the Gunnery Instructors manual. All that time was spent on Chieftain and Challenger 1 and 2. Good times.
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Needs to be an early 1980's to start with. Say 82.
Able Archer rather than Twilight 2000?
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Able Archer rather than Twilight 2000?
That would be my guess. Of course in TW2000 you would be breaking all the old SLRs out of storage to arm up the 3rd wave replacements, home guard...etc
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Looking forward to this :) Maybe a Conqueror ...? :)
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What mark would be most common?
Needs to be an early 1980's to start with. Say 82.
My 1985 copy of "Ultra Modern Army Lists and Organisations" Volume 1 by Bruce Rea-Taylor lists Chieftain Mk 9/12. As that has IFC, I assume it has the later barrel and shroud. Night vision is II, so no TOGS.
Though I will point out the upgrade is the "Challenger Mk 2" - which is now referred to as the Challenger 1 (the mk 2 is to differentiate it from the "stretched" Cromwell).
No substitute for real knowledge of course.
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Most likely Mk9,10 or possibly 12, the final non Stillbrew iteration. Pretty much everything after Mk5 was a rebuild/ upgrade and the 9s and 10s seem to have been late 1970’s upgrades so probably the latest around the time of Deutschland ‘83. ;)
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Just to say lads that Chieftain did not use II except the Drivers night sight which was carried as a spare and had to be fitted.
I.R. was used for a limited time in both passive and active arrangements but was poor. The drivers IR headlights and the searchlight and commanders spotlight had I.R. filters .
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so is it worth making the side plates separate or not? Not seen pics of them without them. It's a LOT easier if I can make them solid!
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Truthful answer is that they never look right on a model as a complete strip.
Each was bolted on individually and they were prone to damage and loss . I realise that this isn’t what you want to hear but if you want it to look superb and allow some variation as the odd ‘bazooka plate’ is missing from individual callsigns then I say individual ( but that means having the stay arms fitted as well) . Yeah , I’ve just made it even worse! 😳
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Ok, no probs. I'd rather get it right.
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Top man. 👍
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It's actually no worse than the Centurion really. The bazooka plates done need to be thin, only at the edges which means they don't need to be fragile.
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Just to say lads that Chieftain did not use II except the Drivers night sight which was carried as a spare and had to be fitted.
I.R. was used for a limited time in both passive and active arrangements but was poor. The drivers IR headlights and the searchlight and commanders spotlight had I.R. filters .
As I mentioned...
No substitute for real knowledge of course.
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Top notch lads 👍
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bit of progress
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Looking sharp
👍👍
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Nice.
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That would be my guess. Of course in TW2000 you would be breaking all the old SLRs out of storage to arm up the 3rd wave replacements, home guard...etc
Use of SLRs in Twilight 2000 would not be an issue - L85 reliability issues did not become a PR/military problem until 1991 and were not used in infantry conflict until the 21st century. The reliability upgrades would not have existed when the Twilight war began, so stocks of reliable weapons with plentiful existing ammunition would have been rushed to the front.
And before anyone points and laughs at L85, can you imagine the US fighting a War* during the period that the M16 was being introduced continuing to issue them to replace the M14s? Reputational damage and commercial interests be damned.
* Vietnam was a meat grinder, great for testing, not so much for those doing the testing.
Now back to the programme...
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Deailling take so long...
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Detailing looks good . I spotted no deflection plate which joins the searchlight to the basket. Because the basket is pronounced it was a real drama if you hit a tree , it would rip the basket off the turret. A plate was fitted to join the searchlight and basket so a glancing blow would not cause serious damage and loss of kit. In that basket all personal kit/webbing was stowed.
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Yes I saw that, there is a lot of detail still to add! I've only really done the turret roof, quite a bit more on the cupola and around the sides to go. Not even looked at the hull details yet.
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SABOT I only drove the Chieftain once and it was bloody uncomfortable. I felt like I needed a side knee joint on my left leg to work the pedal. Or what that me? lol
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You are a tall lad and without adjusting the seat properly there is a definite knee hazard!
I was never keen on being a ‘cab crab’ although in the RAC you have to learn all trades so even though I started as a Gunner I had to to a Driver Maintenance course after a year to qualify as a full crewman ( pay rise! ) . I then stuck to the Gunnery side from then on. 😁👍
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Roof details slowly developing (and deflector plate ;) )
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Tidy work. 👍
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Cool.
What is the structure between the commander's and loader's hatch?
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No idea! It's what looks like a steel rail welded to the roof
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I just wondered, one of the people who worked on them will hopefully let us know.
Keep up the good work.
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It’s pretty much as you have described ..... its the strengthening bar for the turret roof.
There is another upraised portion which is for the header tank ( coolant) for the temperature compensated link bar. Due to all this being metal you need a constant and even temp along all the components that form the gunners sighting equipment.
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Progress... slowly...
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Looks right 👍
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Roof done I think...
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Rear deck details growing
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Looking good.
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:-*
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The start of the skirts
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Coming on now. 👍
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Hull
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OK bits left... as far as I can tell...
Water vane on the front, rear towing gear, back deck hinges, co-ax, mantle cover, round thing on the hull RHS, aerial mounts, NBC Kennel details, smoke launchers.... and probably more!
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Nice.
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for some reason the skirts make it look MEAN 8)
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Even meaner looking with the main armament over the side going full tilt firing on the move whilst balancing ya brew! Good days!!
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I have always thought it was a beautiful tank. In the mould of iconic vehicles such as the Jaguar E type, the Spitfire and Hurricane, Kinda British looking. :-*
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You really should follow up with British Leyland’s second most iconic tank, the P76. How many sedan cars do you know of that could fit a 44 gallon drum in the boot. Shared many of the handling characteristics and mechanical issues of the early Chieftains too.. :)
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Oh and err...
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Don't be naughty, the P76 was a far better car than it is often given credit for, all-aluminium donk, great storage, Wheels Car of the Year 1973. And look at the period competitors available. The XA Falcon wasn't bad, but the HQ Kingswood and the 1973 Valiant were utter shockers.
Build quality issues were the real killer. Rushed into production early, a bit like judging the Panther only on the performance at Kursk.
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I have never heard of that car. Was it only in Australia or did I miss it.
My dad worked for Fords at the time so it was all Cortinas, Capris, and Zephyrs.
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40 miles per gallon!
But that's quite a lot of oil.
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I have never heard of that car. Was it only in Australia or did I miss it.
My dad worked for Fords at the time so it was all Cortinas, Capris, and Zephyrs.
Yup, Leyland Australia, borrowed bits from contemporary British Leyland models and packaged it up as a Aussie tank.
Of course Australia no longer has a car industry, which jobs aside, probably isn’t a bad thing. The industry made shit cars and struggled to market the occasional one to places like New Zealand or the Gulf States.
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What does 2 hours of CAD look like? This horrid lump of a smoke launcher...
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What does 2 hours of CAD look like? This horrid lump of a smoke launcher...
But an iconic smoke discharger.
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Supposed to look like this...
I'll be chamfering the edges to reduce the apparent thickness and there is more still to add!
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MBSGD Were a real pain in the arse in real life too.
Often they’d fill with water and suffered from negative earth faults which meant loading the grenades could be dangerous, especially the white phos. Could fire one bank or both together from the Crew Commanders position and when fired they gave a good spread of smoke of 1812 mils across your frontage.
Always looked impressive on fire power demos. The smaller of the two cam nets carried as standard was always stowed over the top of the left hand bank of MBSGD.
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Nice.
When they are armed can you see any external difference?
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Yes, the end of the grenades poke out slightly. There were rubber caps issued to cover the loaded grenade that were meant to blow off and be re used but I doubt they would have lasted.
The grenades were flat bottomed like tins of beans.
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OK thanks! So just a stubby cylinder sticking out would do it?
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Correct. The grenades were a tight fit .
Another option is to show the MBSGD with the canvas covers fitted.
Here is one of our D Squadron wagons circa 1981
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDwYk1bR/0-CC0-ACBB-565-D-4267-A9-C1-DCBB9-BA2-C40-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G9pfcVjc)
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Top banana - I'll have a go later and post pics.
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Roger that 👍
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How does that look?
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Back deck done
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Very nice! Looking brilliant to paint,hatches,fuel caps etc :-*
Oh and I disagree about Valiant (Australian car,mine a 318 V8 Ranger) was unstoppable,and if something did go wrong,easily fixed. The P76 was of its time,could have been a contender Leyland however was at the end of its tether. Shame. I own two BMC cars and there reliability make modern cars laughable; a MG and a Morris Oxford MO. The Oxford (1952) is built like a Centurion tank,and goes as fast lol
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If it's bigger than 0.5mm I try and include it where I can
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Spot on with the loaded MBSGD. 👍
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Nice.
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OK Back on topic...
Struggling with the mantle cover area, it's a horrible complex area with very few pictures! The canvas cover will be greenstuffed on after.
Also - should there still be an MG to the left of the main gun (Not the co-ax the other one)
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Very nearly done... probably.
C&C welcome :D
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Sorry, late to this.
The canvas gaiter incorporates the steel sleeve through which fits the barrel of the L8 Co- Ax. it also has to be flexible.
There is nothing under the canvas gaiter as it is a hollow void. On the other side was fitted a fire retardant splash curtain but often these were removed as they got crushed as the gun elevated. (As did my head once ...... long storey involving a stupid Driver and me drinking too much Baileys on a night march).
Below all this should be either the .50 ranging gun protruding through the turret armour or once they were dispensed with the hole was filled in. There was an interim period between the two phases whereby we never used the ranging gun as a TLS was fitted but we mounted the .50 for reasons of gun balancing. See my photo above.
The L11 was barrel heavy which meant that when laying the gun onto target the gunner had to end his lay in elevation by at least a turn and a half of the elevation handwheel. This was to take up elevation backlash in the elevation gearbox. It was a critical aspect of firing and as important as aiming at the centre of the observed mass.
Getting horny at the thought of this Chieftain Gunnery so might need to touch myself now . Laters ..... 🤪🤪🤪🤪
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That is a very interesting comment Sabot :)
The Chieftain looks great :-* Thanks to this thread I’m planning an imaginations campaign,basically so I can field my favourite tanks etc,as you know ;)
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Looking forward to seeing this.
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So coax or not...?
I suppose if I added it with a plug in gun I could make a plug in blank too...
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7.62 Co-Ax yes ...... .50 Ranging gun as optional would be good. 👍
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I suppose if I added it with a plug in gun I could make a plug in blank too...
7.62 Co-Ax yes ...... .50 Ranging gun as optional would be good. 👍
Yes please.
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OK how does this look.
The canvas will be added later
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And bung
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Bits left - barrel lock, NBC Kennel detail... check the hatches fit... print?
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👍👍
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Nice.
Is there an external manifestation of the laser sight beyond the removal of the ranging gun?
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No. The TLS sends a beam from within the sight unit to which it returns instantly.
On an overcast day it is possible to see the laser beam moving through the air. The laser hits the object upon which the MBS Mark is laid. It returns to the sight unit and the the range is displayed as and LED set of figures in the left hand eyepiece.
If the weather is inclement the Gunner. An select First or Last Logic. The last logic is the final part of the returning beam and is more accurate. Rain and mist affected the laser and scattered tne beam giving a false readout. Part of theCrew Commanders job was to assess the range to be realistic before ordering Fire.
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(As did my head once ...... long storey involving a stupid Driver and me drinking too much Baileys on a night march).
My eyes quite literally bugged out as wide as they possibly could at this offhanded bit.
"Oh by the way, there was that one time my head was crushed..."
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👍
In Canada on a night March.
The gun was on stabiliser and we were belting cross country. Driver didn’t see a blooming big hole .... in we went... I went over the breech as the gun elevated then as we climbed out of the hole , the gun depressed rapidly crushing my head between the turret roof and the breech ring. I was wearing a clansman bone done ... which was unusual as normally only wore staff user headset over my beret. The bone dome cracked around my head and I thought I was done for.
Sat back in the Gunners seat as the Loader /Operator climbed down to give me abuse for not paying attention! 😳👍
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No. The TLS sends a beam from within the sight unit to which it returns instantly.
Thanks, I did not know if there was an external component, like some after market laser sights for ex-Soviet tanks.
I had always assumed it was "time of flight", having only recently discovered laser parallax range finding.
Interesting about the settings.
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The gunners sight hood above the TLS is the only separate component showing. This has an armoured visor that can be wound down to protect the glass face of the TLS. Most useful during HE bombardment etc. It was often set to a position to help keep the rain off as well as the wash wipe system. Sometimes if it was left too far forward it would interrupt the laser beam and give false read outs.
What is often neglected in models of Chieftain, because it is so small, is the gunners auxiliary telescopic sight which looks through an aperture in the turret armour and has a rubber bung in place to prevent the ingress of dirt and moisture when not in use. This was intended to be used if the gunners TLS was damaged.
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Think I've added it ok... The shutter on the sight block? Looks like a slab or armour on an arm?
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This one:
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Yep ... you got it ! 👍👍👍👍
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SABOT - you have a message :)
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On it 👍
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Nice work.
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The bits that aren't hull, turret or tracks
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Tracks
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Hull
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Turret
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Last bit i think is the track tensioner bit around the front idler but that is a job for tomorrow...
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Side skirts?
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::) lol
Nice and thick where they can be to make them a bit more robust.
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:-* lol
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Looking terrific. 👍
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Nice.
Now I wonder f I can get that Haynes manual...
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OK! Drawn, cut, exported, sliced and printing! 15 hours to print the hull...! Lets hope it works... :o
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Fingers crossed mate 👍
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Thanks! It's still going... 5 hours to go. Just topped up the resin. This is pretty much the limit on the printer without cutting the hull up. Problem is, unlike many tanks this hull is full width at the rear so I can't reduce the width by cutting the trackguards off, that means it has to turn 90 and print almost vertically. I'll get a pic later.
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How is it going?
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It's done and initial look seems OK. Half working (the real job) half babysitting at present so can't sort it out yet.
It was still dipped into the resin which means it was on the limit for height! The resin is only 3-5 mm deep!
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Next to a T55 :D
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Closer shot
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Terrific! 👍👍
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Ooh!
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Looking miiiiighty good there!
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Some bits need reconsidering, the back plate is somewhat damaged from the supports so I'll lop off the exhaust box and rear stowage boxes. That will hide most of it. I also need to add something to align the tracks. Probably some nice big pegs or a tab and slot.
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Well the printer screen failed so my 11hour track print failed at some point last night. Fortunately I have spares and, despite never having done it before it took less than 10mins thanks to a nice simple design.
Sadly it also put a hole in the tank... Which is a fairly routine problem and I've got spares for that too but it takes half an hour to fix. Plus I can't do it while working or babysitting so it'll have to wait until lunch or later....
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Chin up mate ..... you’ll crack it.
That all sounds as frustrating as the numerous times I broke down on the old beast! 👍
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Al done and started the print again.
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The print obviously failed after a few hours so some of the smaller stuff printed ok
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Well the right track printed perfectly... In the wrong scale ::) Trying again...
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Good old track bashing ...... tightening tracks was a two man crew job .... taking a link out the same really but still a crew job. Changing tracks took the whole Troop of 12 blokes to get stuck in and at least once the whole Troop of three wagons had to be done at the same time ..... knackering!
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Wow! At least mine just need reprinting!!
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And on the hull temporary for checking.
There is a slight misprint on the track corner but easily fixed. This is the proof test print.
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That looks superb :o Going to need one for my T2k project I think, I doubt they'd have been sold off in that scenario (at least not in the numbers they were).
Will you be doing any more in 1/50? A Saxon would be excellent, just saying... :D
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Running gear is looking lovely. 👍
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Thanks chaps.
If you want more stuff petition Empress ;)
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Nice.
If you want more stuff petition Empress ;)
Ooh, poor Paul...
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Turret
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Looking very sharp. 👍👍
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Very nearly done... This is the prototype so not perfect but still pretty good! The final version will be changed to improve things. Mostly the exhaust box and rear stowage will be made separate.
The reason for this is the printing scaffolding leave damage and tends to be distorted. By making the rear bits separate I can put the mankier sides together and hide them :)
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Makes sense 👍👍👍
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Thanks chaps.
If you want more stuff petition Empress ;)
Noted lol
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That’s a bit good!
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I love the way it has really flattened those biscuits. They must be stand ins for 1/50 Mini Metros.
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It's very strange to see a Chieftain without skirts. It just looks wrong! Cracking looking model though.
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Excellent, and I agree its just wrong without the skirts. lol
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We took them off if playing enemy orange forces and it does change the look of the old girl. Loads more dust without bazooka plates too.
At the halt we would unbolt one and lay it flat whilst still hooked into the mounting brackets to make a nice dining table. Cavalry you see .... proper posh! The lifting loops on the side skirts made brilliant beer bottle openers as well as being good to tie cammo onto.
It wasn’t unusual to lose one plate on one side ... looks proper war like then.
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We took them off if playing enemy orange forces and it does change the look of the old girl.
We did the same thing with our Leopards :)
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I remember being side by side with some Leopards at Bergen-Hohne wash down .... your skirts were hinged and an easy job to move to wash road wheels etc ..... we had to unbolt ours with a combination tool. ☹️
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I remember being side by side with some Leopards at Bergen-Hohne wash down .... your skirts were hinged and an easy job to move to wash road wheels etc ..... we had to unbolt ours with a combination tool. ☹️
I somehow doubt they would have been Austalian Leos at Bergen-Hohne ;)
But you're right about the hinged skirts :)
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Roger that .... they were ‘Cloggies’. 😬👍
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You might have met the occasional koala in Germany though. IIRC quite a number of armour officers were posted across to Germany to gain experience in formation training. Gave them something vaguely useful to do, I suppose.
I must say, Leopards at speed were something of an eerie sight, they seemed to glide over the terrain at speed, which was a bit disconcerting.
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Yes we had a Warrant Officer on exchange at the Gunnery School when I was an Instructor. Decent bloke but forget his surname.
Leopards at speed were impressive. Used to get envious until we got Challenger.
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OK, some unexpected delays out the way... its finally completed.
Nothing to show really, the changes were to make it prettier around the rear as the build scaffolding was leaving quite a mess. I cut off all the rear boxes (2x stowage and 1x Exhaust) so they could be added afterwards to cover the mess.
I've also modded a GPMG to fit the cupola.
Should be going to Empress soon!
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Yay!
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Done and now with Paul at Empress :D
Lots of bits in afraid but can't be helped!
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:o
That's fantastic!
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Excellent.
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That pictures does not do it justice. Its a very gorgeous model. Just getting the barrel 'shroud' sculpted on then into production. Best get some crew sculpted.
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I have forgotten, what version is this?
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I can't remember either! lol
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I can't remember either! lol
Hopefully SABOT can answer the question.
^__^