Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Altius on July 30, 2009, 03:38:37 PM
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Hi guys! First post! :)
I'm about halfway through reading Setting the East Ablaze by Hopkirk. In it, he makes several mentions of Austro-Hungarian prisoners, who seem to have been fairly common in the area around Tashkent. Sometimes these men were pressed into service for either side in the RCW.
I'm just wondering how you might model these for the tabletop. What uniform would they have worn? Hopkirk mentions them in "blue-grey uniforms". Would the prisoners be wearing their standard Austro-Hungarian fatigues, Russian army uniforms, or some type of standard prison-issue uniforms?
Thanks in advance.
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I don't think there has ever been anything like a standard issue POW uniform. As far as I know POWs wear their service uniforms. Troops used as mercenaries or even press-ganged into the RCW might have worn their old uniforms, maybe new ones given to them by their new commanders or maybe even captured uniforms. In civil wars the question of uniforms tend to be a little less important, I guess.
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Adam posted a picture of some Austro-Hungarian POWs in this thread; http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=12310.0
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Altius, I seem to remember a reference to some German (not Austrian) former POW's in the book, Mission to Tashkent. In it the author says that while witnessing a parade in Tashkent a more 'elite' Red Army unit passed by made up of disciplined German ex-POW's dressed entirely in black leather uniforms. In the year that he was writing I don't think they had the wierd pointy hat thingymajig (my knowledge of RCW uniforms is unsurpassed) so I'm guessing they just had the caps. I'm thinking of starting the same period and place as yourself and was thinking of using copplestone Red Army infantry in caps painted black for this obscure but interesting unit.
Of course it's been a while since I read that book so I might be completely mistaken about the uniforms. (And might well have revealed that I have black leather clad men in black leather caps on my mind :o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdbt-sx5MDc&feature=related
Edit: does anybody have a copy of the book that they could check?
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I'd recommend using kuk-Minis. Of course in transoxania they wouldn't have used kuk-weaponry, but who cares? If you go by the book you'll have several factions dressed in different combinations of russian uniforms (e.g. the Czech legions only regular mark of distinction was the different badge), that would be rather silly for pulpish BoB-scenarios. So add some variation and use austrian minis for austrian POWs.
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Hi guys! First post! :)
I'm about halfway through reading Setting the East Ablaze by Hopkirk. In it, he makes several mentions of Austro-Hungarian prisoners, who seem to have been fairly common in the area around Tashkent. Sometimes these men were pressed into service for either side in the RCW.
I'm just wondering how you might model these for the tabletop. What uniform would they have worn? Hopkirk mentions them in "blue-grey uniforms". Would the prisoners be wearing their standard Austro-Hungarian fatigues, Russian army uniforms, or some type of standard prison-issue uniforms?
Thanks in advance.
The Blue Grey uniforms he's referring to are "Pike Grey" uniforms, which were worn by the Austrians officially until 1916, and then by some units even until the end of the war. It (Pike Grey) came in a variety of shades of "blue grey" ranging from very blue to almost stone grey. Many Austro-Hungarian POWs would have been taken prior to 1917, so the fact that some of them were in blue grey does make some sense. I don't know how long they would have lasted, especially if they were the only uniform available, but early war uniforms in WW1, just as in WW2, tended to be made from higher quality, more durable materials. At any rate, some of my uncles who served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW1 had bits and pieces of their pike grey kit for decades after the war, so it is possible, I guess, that such things would have survived, even under harsh conditions. They might be tattered, but...
-Doc
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At any rate, some of my uncles who served in the Austro-Hungarian army during WW1 had bits and pieces of their pike grey kit for decades after the war, so it is possible, I guess, that such things would have survived, even under harsh conditions. They might be tattered, but...
-Doc
It's worth noting that in the same book, Mission to Tashkent, the author says that the Austro-Hungarian prisoners were desperate to find some form of employment and that a cafe band made up of POWs are dressed smartly in their Austrian uniforms. Later on in the book I think the author escapes disguised as an Austrian POW, indicating that they were quite readily identifiable so must still have had some of their own clothing. It has been ages since I read the book so I might be talking rubbish, though.
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Also, I think it's worth noting that the Austro-Hungarians in the other thread were used as labour to build railways and it seems likely that their uniforms would have worn out more quickly than the prisoners in Tashkent who were, I believe, put there less as a labour force and more because it was in the back of beyond and they could be left there with less security.
In effect, whether you choose Austrian looking or Russian looking former POWs a case can be made for both. Brigade's new Austrians are lovely though aren't they?
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Hopkirk makes ready mention of Austrian uniforms, which would have survived easily if they were not fighting (which they were not till later). The Osprey books on Austro-Hugarian armies give a comprehensive set of references, and are highly recommended. Any Austro-Hungarian figures would therefore do, with a mix of pike -grey and Russian drab. My own figures are the now discontinued HLBS range, which were very good.
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Recall that these prisoners had no other clothing. Clothes last quite a long time if you aren't wearing them, but not quite so long if that is all you have, day and night, for three years.
The Reds fielded quite a few Austrian and Hungarian units, while the bulk of the Czechs and Serbs went White. The Ruthenians went over to the new Ukrainian governments. You can't really talk about the units being Austro-Hungarian -- they were one specific group or another.
If recruited from prisoners they would have to be supplied with Russian equipment, which means using Russian figures. By all means paint the odd bit in Austrian, but using Austrian figures is way off. Even if they had been in the old kit, it would be an enormous mish-mash of different eras and types, since prisoners weren't all from discrete units, but jumbled around. That picture of the Austrian prisoners (quoted above) shows the variety involved, and that is much earlier, so it would only have got much worse.
In fact getting rid of their lousy (literally) clothing and getting real food was the prime draw of recruitment.
There were some small units recruited directly from the KuK army in the Ukraine. They presumably kept their kit intact. Unlikely to make it to the East, and it seems most disbanded pretty quickly.
Later on in the book I think the author escapes disguised as an Austrian POW, indicating that they were quite readily identifiable so must still have had some of their own clothing.
But note that he cannot pass as a Red wearing this outfit.
Late he changes to "a black leather suit such as most Russians wore in winter" because the Austrian kit wasn't up to the winter conditions.
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I agree with the comments on the longevity of uniforms. Even as a POW, poor conditions etc. would have soon rendered any clothing as unusable. The best option for gaming purposes would be to possibly sprinkle a variety of uniformed figs in with a majority of Russian equipped troops for effect. Painting a variety of shades of cloth would also add to the mixed effect.
A number of Great Game operatives managed to escape from Soviet clutches by posing as various Central European nationalities, suggesting that the appearance of these POWs may have been more garbled than it would first appear from reading the accounts.
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AFAIK the escapees used austrian-hungarian papers to disguise themselves as austro-hungarians. The clothing must have been secondary, for reasons mentionend above.
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Hello,
is there any documented evidence of these prisoners fighting for the Bolsheviks or perhaps as more "independent" units in the Russian archives ?
Ken.
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This French graphic novel( about the Czech legions odyssey)uses artistic licence to portray the Central Power POW's in a mixture of clothing.
http://www.futuropolis.fr/fiche_titre.php?id_article=790176
I intended to use some Renegade Austrian heads and German soft caps on Copplestone Bolshevik bodies but Renegade seems to be on some hiatus
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Hello,
is there any documented evidence of these prisoners fighting for the Bolsheviks or perhaps as more "independent" units in the Russian archives ?
I don't understand the question. There's no doubt Austro-Hungarians fought in very large numbers for the Bolsheviks, and were often their best soldiers. They did have a tendency to go home, once WWI was definitively ended.
They did however fight in ethnic units, so they would be Austrian, or Hungarian. As noted above the Serbs, Croats, Poles, Czechs and Slovaks fought mainly for the Whites (again in ethnic units).
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This topic has been raised before. Here is located the discussion:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=62566.msg772153#msg772153
According to my information, the red units, consisting of captives Hungarians did everything to to designate the national identity and carefully preserved elements of Austrian uniforms. Of course they, with time had to replace worn-out uniforms for standard items Russian uniforms.
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Hello,
as to what I mean buy independent pow units (not those "internationalist/pro Bolshevik pows or reluctant recruits), I recall an article in Wargames Illustrated about a "back of beyond " game. Which mentioned in the introduction that after the conclusion of peace between the central powers and bolsheviks and with no means of transport to get them home , it was claimed that the German government secretly encouraged the pows to stay in Turkestan in order to cause trouble for the British.
I haven't seen anything in the books I have read which suggested that this occurred, just wondering if German or Russian sources might have had something concerning any other pows that might have fought against any British forces.
Ken.
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I've never seen any documents or other reliable sources to support this version.
Besides, as far as I know, a prerequisite for entry prisoners of war into the Red Army - was adoption of the citizenship of the Soviet Russia.
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it was claimed that the German government secretly encouraged the pows to stay in Turkestan in order to cause trouble for the British.
You see accusations like that in accounts made at the time, but invariably they turn out to be untrue.
Some reflection suggests that they will always turn out to be untrue. The "British in Turkestan" were a tiny unit fighting a sideshow to a sideshow (no matter how interesting to wargamers, it was never very important in the real world). Why would any POW stay fighting, unpaid and unsupported, in a backwater for uncertain aims when they could attempt to go home? (Remember, once WWI finished it was more or less impossible for even the Czechs to keep their well-organised units interested in fighting.)
The Allies in WWI and after had a full-on conspiracy mindset, seeing German shenanigans in every corner (the idea that the Bolshevik revolution was a German plan, and would collapse without their support, was very widespread). We don't need to follow them. Germany could barely keep her own territory in 1918 and 1919 -- worrying about Turkestan was well beyond them.
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You see accusations like that in accounts made at the time, but invariably they turn out to be untrue.
Some reflection suggests that they will always turn out to be untrue. The "British in Turkestan" were a tiny unit fighting a sideshow to a sideshow (no matter how interesting to wargamers, it was never very important in the real world).
Whilst I buy your point about about the POWs, I think you'll find that Malleson Force was a bit more important than Hopkirk gave it credit for. Giles Milton's recent book 'Russian Roulette' had access to a lot more India office papers than were available in the 1980's, and show just how serious the British believed the threat to India was from German/Turkish forces west of the Caspian in 1918.
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Whilst I buy your point about about the POWs, I think you'll find that Malleson Force was a bit more important than Hopkirk gave it credit for. Giles Milton's recent book 'Russian Roulette' had access to a lot more India office papers than were available in the 1980's, and show just how serious the British believed the threat to India was from German/Turkish forces west of the Caspian in 1918.
The key words there are "India Office". They thought the theatre was important, because from an Indian point of view it was as important as India got in WWI. Given that Ashkabad is 1,000 km from British territory -- there was no direct threat to India at any time from that area. The threat was economic and political, not military.
Thessalonika was a sideshow in WWI terms -- yet there were something like 4 British divisions there, plus French. Mallmiss was on the same scale as the Allied occupation of Samoa or Togoland -- neither regarded as particularly crucial to the war effort. Mallmiss was more like an armed reconnaissance to see what was happening than a serious front.
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The key words there are "India Office". They thought the theatre was important, because from an Indian point of view it was as important as India got in WWI. Given that Ashkabad is 1,000 km from British territory -- there was no direct threat to India at any time from that area. The threat was economic and political, not military.
Thessalonika was a sideshow in WWI terms -- yet there were something like 4 British divisions there, plus French. Mallmiss was on the same scale as the Allied occupation of Samoa or Togoland -- neither regarded as particularly crucial to the war effort. Mallmiss was more like an armed reconnaissance to see what was happening than a serious front.
You are of course forgetting the railway line from Turkmenbashi (nee Krasnavodsk) to the Afghan frontier. Three days on a bad day. Let's just agree to disagree.....
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The wargames Illustrated article was - "battle of Dashakh , October 1918", i think the article was in a 2006 or 08 issue.
In Miniature wargames 178, March 1998, there is an "operations in Trans-caspia 1918-19" article, the only mention of Autrian pow,s has them as part of the bolshevik forces at the battle of Annenkovo, January 1919.
Pete.
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http://archive.is/JM2RA is the article in question Twiglet.
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Returning to a previous conversation:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7914/32575295468_cd1bd271a1_o.jpg)
The absence of epaulets, but the presence of national emblems on the caps of Russian soldiers, allows us to date the photo in 1917, maybe the beginning of 1918.
The inscriptions on the funeral wreaths indicate that this is the funeral of the internationalist soldiers who died defending Soviet power... I do not know where these events take place.