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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Atheling on May 15, 2020, 11:17:26 AM

Title: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 15, 2020, 11:17:26 AM
As the title suggests I am looking for credible sources and images of the Palaeologan Byzantines circa 1453

It's for a future project ;)  :D

EDIT: To be more specific:

Guards
Elite and Regular Pronoiarios
Psiloi
Hoplitai/Scutatoi
Skythikoi
Turkopoloi
Latinikoi Infiantry and Cavalry (would these have absobed Eastern influences in armour and weaponry?)
Anything I've missed?
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 15, 2020, 01:56:33 PM
It's a bit of a shame that visual sources for the 15th century Byzantines are so hard to find!

I think the most detailed contemporary(ish) images are probably Italian or Flemish works, but most of them are sort of speculative rather than strictly accurate, as a heads up! My understanding is that after the Council of Florence in the 1430s, John VIII Palaiologos and his entourage managed to capture the imagination of a lot of artists, so you see a lot of references to his appearance in allegorical or Biblical work.

Here's the Emperor himself, a tad early for 1453 but probably not too far off!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Kaiser_Johannes_VIII.jpg/800px-Kaiser_Johannes_VIII.jpg)

And from there I tend to assume that "Romans" in Biblical paintings from the 15th century are usually modelled on the Byzantines of John's entourage. Here's some examples from Jan van Eyck's Crucifixion and the Last Judgement Diptych:
(https://i.imgur.com/cZsScLV.png)

In this one the chap on the right seems to be a bit more fantastical, while there's a pure Western looking helmet on the left so I assume that's just van Eyck drawing from his own experience, but the horsemen in the foreground are consistent with other Byzantines if that helps
(https://i.imgur.com/oxgeb2S.png)

And in another Flemish crucifixion work from the 15th century, we've got some other Romans with pointy Byzantine hats or Turbans, and a curious brigandine on the right too!
(https://i.imgur.com/BJhaIfe.png)

I can't think of any others off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure I've seen other Crucifixion/Passion paintings with these sorts of allegorical Byzantines-as-Ancient-Romans

It's not strictly Palaiologan, but there's a Florentine painting from 1462 of (we think) the Fall of Trebizond, which shows Trapezuntine military forces, where they look very similar to the Ottoman army:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Cassone_with_painted_front_panel_depicting_the_Conquest_of_Trebizond_MET_DP106674_%28cropped%29.jpg)

Here's some cropped examples from that same work, where we can see the Trapezuntines wielding recurve bows, and curved swords, and a mix of turbans and the large Byzantine hats
(https://i.imgur.com/JA1tMhQ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/xf5zpIq.png)

And here's what I assume are some prisoners being herded along by their Ottoman captors:
(https://i.imgur.com/yD0Q8yH.png)


There's also the 14th century manuscript of the Alexander Romance from Trebizond, which again is a bit early but shows some images of Byzantine/Trapezuntine soldiers from that period, but a lot can happen in a century, so the appearance probably changed since then!

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/25/61/282561750e3559435ebc1247fca79618.jpg)

Also, while they're not the *most* detailed around the 15th century specifically, there's the two Osprey Men-at-Arms books "Byzantine Armies AD 1118-1461" and "Byzantine Naval Forces 1261-1461." They've got some illustrations of various specific Byzantine forces, including the foreign contingents if that helps!

From what I can tell, as a general rule the later Stratioti tend to be a fairly close analogue to the late Byzantine armies, lots of robes, bright colours and big hats!
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 15, 2020, 10:33:46 PM
Thanks HappyChappy439.  8)

That's quite a wealth of information contained in just those few images and is going to take some digesting.

I can see already that to put a force of any real size on the table top is going to take some serious detailed conversion work and a very long time.

Oh, what i would do for a Palaeologos Dynasty range  :)

Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: SJWi on May 16, 2020, 06:23:14 AM
Hi, Ian Heath's "Armies of the Middle ages" Vol 2 has several line drawings of late Byzantines. Concord Publications "The Easter Romans 330-1461AD" has several plates of late 14th/15th century Byzantines.

I don't know if these are still easily available.

   
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 16, 2020, 09:49:53 AM
Hi, Ian Heath's "Armies of the Middle ages" Vol 2 has several line drawings of late Byzantines. Concord Publications "The Easter Romans 330-1461AD" has several plates of late 14th/15th century Byzantines.

I don't know if these are still easily available.

 

Thanks SJWi.

I have both books. I was really hoping (probably against hope :) ) that there was something out there that was much more comprehensive.

Someone out there has to have printed a book with lots of plates referencing the early and late 15th Century Byzantine army  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: commissarmoody on May 17, 2020, 10:31:25 AM
Yeah sadly it's pretty hard to find many contemporary and modern art of mid 15th century Byzantium troops.
And doesn't seemed to get much love miniature wise.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Diablo Jon on May 17, 2020, 07:02:31 PM
Was there even much of a Byzantium army by circa 1453? The defenders of Constantinople where mostly armed citizens and Italian mercenaries weren't they? I'd hazard a guess that the reason it's hard to find much info is that Byzantium was pretty much military defunct by the mid 15th century.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 17, 2020, 07:50:03 PM
Was there even much of a Byzantium army by circa 1453? The defenders of Constantinople where mostly armed citizens and Italian mercenaries weren't they? I'd hazard a guess that the reason it's hard to find much info is that Byzantium was pretty much military defunct by the mid 15th century.

Well, no quite. 5000 out of the 7000 defenders were Byzantine soldiers. The citizens certainly did take part in the defence of the walls because there weren't enough professional soldiers to defend; the inner Theodosian Wall was 5.7 kilometers. That's not to even take into account the two outer walls.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Diablo Jon on May 17, 2020, 09:17:30 PM
Well, no quite. 5000 out of the 7000 defenders were Byzantine soldiers. The citizens certainly did take part in the defence of the walls because there weren't enough professional soldiers to defend; the inner Theodosian Wall was 5.7 kilometers. That's not to even take into account the two outer walls.

Not sure they where. According to a census order by Constantine XI of the 9000 strong garrison 4773 where native Byzantines the rest where Venetians, Genoese and Catalans. I had read the
Imperial army was only around 1500 strong in 1453 and the rest where raised the from city population. I imagine quite a bit of 1450s byzantine army could be represented by Perry's European Mercenaries box..boring as that is  :-I.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Donkeymilkman on May 17, 2020, 10:41:40 PM
I'd recommend the Rise of Empires (I believe that's the name) Netflix show, about the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, can't imagine they could get away with it being inaccurate, maybe try taking screenshots of scenes when paused to get pictures of the Byzantines. I, myself, am not a big Byzantine history buff but from what I know about Ottoman History the Byzantines are illustrated wearing Middle Eastern/Muslim Armour from contemporary Ottoman records of the time though from what I've read there is speculation on whether this was correct or more of an artistic interpretation. Good luck with your research, hope to see some posts of the project when it comes around!
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 17, 2020, 11:40:29 PM
Well, no quite. 5000 out of the 7000 defenders were Byzantine soldiers. The citizens certainly did take part in the defence of the walls because there weren't enough professional soldiers to defend; the inner Theodosian Wall was 5.7 kilometers. That's not to even take into account the two outer walls.

If nothing else, the Despots Thomas and Demetrios had enough of a military to have a civil war among themselves in the Morea!

But as a few additional pictures, I've been looking around trying to see if anyone's posted pictures of frescoes in churches or monasteries that might help. At the moment I've not had much luck tracking down anything from the 15th century from Byzantine Greece itself (or at least, Constantinople, Thessaloniki or the Morea/Mystras)

I've found a few posts around with examples from Crete and Cyprus though, they might be a hair more 'latinized' than the core Imperial territories, but they're done by Greek artists, and both territories had pretty close links to the Empire

Here's a 15th century one from the Agia Paraskevi church on Cyprus, where it looks like the 'Romans' in the painting fairly consistently have kettle hats and some embroidered tunics:
(https://i.imgur.com/KSwqCUI.png)

There's this one as well from the Agios Ioannis Lampadistis monastery on Cyprus, but with the caveat that I don't know when this one in particular was painted. The narthex of the church was painted by Byzantine refugees after 1453, but other frescoes and murals were only done in the 16th and 17th centuries, as a heads up! But, if nothing else this one is interesting in that the 'Romans' are pretty western looking, with mail shirts and pointy bascinets.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Kalopanagiotis_Kreuzigung.jpg/580px-Kalopanagiotis_Kreuzigung.jpg)

And there's this helpful blog post that describes a 15th century Cretan icon of the crucifixion, the artist (Andreas Pavias) was only born in 1440 though, so the icon was probably only painted in the latter half of the century!

https://russianicons.wordpress.com/tag/cretan-icons/

The examples there look like a pretty frenetic mix of early 15th century Western-style men-at-arms, with more 'modern' mid-15th century armour, and some clearly Byzantine wide-brimmed kettle helms thrown in every so often. So I'd guess if this is anything to go by, the armoured Byzantines of the 1450s didn't look too different to the Latin knights of the 1390s, with the addition of big kettle helms and leather or cloth covered breastplates (or brigandines).   

(https://i.imgur.com/K3punzK.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/e1KdKnZ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ERwBs8W.png)

Hopefully that helps a bit! Or at least, gives a few more ideas for conversions on top of the robes-and-hats Byzantines of the earlier post!
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 18, 2020, 09:10:19 AM
Thanks Diablo Jon, Donkeymilkman and HappyChappy439.

Very much appreciated- that's certainly quite a lot to absorb!  :o

i'm sure we would all agree that it is reasonably easy to work out what the Latinikoi men at arms, crossbowmen etc would appear.  think this is going to take some really deep research.

I wonder if there are any books out there that have descriptions of the arms and armour of the Byzantine participants in the siege?

I'm not aware of anything and my amazon searches have not thrown up anything.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Diablo Jon on May 18, 2020, 10:10:52 AM
I assume you have the Osprey on late Byzantine armies. It covers everything from the around the 4th crusade until the end last two plates are 15th century soldiers. I mean it's osprey level of detail but some useful stuff anyway.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 18, 2020, 10:42:09 AM
I assume you have the Osprey on late Byzantine armies. It covers everything from the around the 4th crusade until the end last two plates are 15th century soldiers. I mean it's osprey level of detail but some useful stuff anyway.

Yeah, and few few other 'artwork' type books such as The Eastern Romans, 330-1461 but I'm dubious about the authenticity of some of the plates- thing is, I don't really know how accurate they are at this moment in time. :)
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Anderson Collection on May 19, 2020, 11:58:05 AM
Darrell.

I've been trying to pull something together for this army for years a few pics of my take on it below.
The figures are conversions and some figures commissioned via Ebob some years ago.
Very elusive period.
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 19, 2020, 12:50:53 PM
Darrell.

I've been trying to pull something together for this army for years a few pics of my take on it below.
The figures are conversions and some figures commissioned via Ebob some years ago.
Very elusive period.

Oddly enough, someone sent me a link to your Blog on this very same subject.

There are some absolutely superb conversions in there!  :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: HappyChappy439 on May 19, 2020, 02:08:00 PM
There are some absolutely superb conversions in there!  :-* :-* :-*

Highly agree!

Gotta say, this thread has definitely given me the bug for wanting to convert up some Byzantines of my own lol !
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 19, 2020, 08:53:23 PM
Highly agree!

Gotta say, this thread has definitely given me the bug for wanting to convert up some Byzantines of my own lol !

I don't know whether to congratulate you or commiserate  lol
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Diablo Jon on May 20, 2020, 07:47:08 AM
Darrell.

I've been trying to pull something together for this army for years a few pics of my take on it below.
The figures are conversions and some figures commissioned via Ebob some years ago.
Very elusive period.

Those are brilliant.


Yeah, and few few other 'artwork' type books such as The Eastern Romans, 330-1461 but I'm dubious about the authenticity of some of the plates- thing is, I don't really know how accurate they are at this moment in time. :)

Well those figures above look like they just walked out of an Osprey colour plate and they look pretty good to me.

I get what you are say though I have Ospreys on the Greek Persian war and Carthaginian armies that have plates that look pure fantasy in light of more recent research...Punic pikemen anyone?
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 20, 2020, 07:59:26 AM
recent research...Punic pikemen anyone?

I'd forgotten about the Punic Pikemen  lol lol lol

Maybe my brain was attempting to protect me :)

Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 26, 2020, 12:58:28 PM
now you got me the bug to sculpt some late Romans  lol
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on May 26, 2020, 12:59:29 PM
now you got me the bug to sculpt some late Romans  lol

Do it! In 28mm per chance?
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 26, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
Do it! In 28mm per chance?

yes, I had a small start with a 10th century cataphract but then I stopped and sculpted my Hoplites
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Captain Harlock on May 26, 2020, 02:23:35 PM
these are brilliant!  :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Condottiere on June 06, 2020, 02:02:27 AM
The Late Byzantine Army
Arms and Society, 1204-1453 Mark C. Bartusis (https://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/110.html)

Ian Heath used this book as a reference for his Osprey, explaining why unit organization is barely mentioned, but I find it has too much raw data and not enough analysis. Also the ending is a mess, like Tolstoy's War and Peace, lol in it's glorification of the thematic troops vs "mercenary" tagmatics. I agree with Haldon's criticism: "...Bartusis' study necessarily assumes a great deal about the situation prior to its starting point so that the developments which preceded those discussed are ---understandably---barely mentioned." (page 3, Warfare, State and Society in the Byzantine World, 565-1204).

Savvas Kyriakidis' Warfare in Late Byzantium, 1204-1453 (https://deremilitari.org/2015/02/savvas-kyriakidis-warfare-in-late-byzantium-1204-1453-may/), while using Bartusis as one of his sources, is much better organized book.

If you're patient with a Turkish to English translator, search for Bizans İmparatorluğu in Academia.edu.

Do you have Medieval Warfare Special: The Conquest of Constantinople (https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/medieval-warfare/mw-shop/special-issues/mw-special-1.html)?
Quote
    Eugenia Russel, Historical introduction – the destruction of the Oikoumeni
    Kenneth Cline, Constantine XI – no room to maneuver
    Murat Özveri, Mehmed ‘the Conqueror’ – A sultan of paradoxes
    Nicola Bergamo, Venice, Genoa and Byzantium – difficult ‘trio'
    Konstantin Nossov, The walls of Constantinople
    Stephen Bennett & Nils Visser, The Conquest of Constantinople
    Murray Dahm, Fallout – Contemporary reactions to the loss of Constantinople
    Lukasz Rozycki, The fall of the Old World through the eyes of the “Polish janissary”
    Raffaele D’Amato, The last defenders – the Roman army
    Vassilis Pergalias, The final opponents – the Ottoman army
    Ben Sheppard, Aftermath
The figures in D'Amato's article are derived from his book, The Eastern Romans 330-1461 AD, and while I think he think he tends to prefer the gaudy, I doubt they're inaccurate. The plates might look like they're derived from Ian Heath's Osprey, but more than likely both used the same sources.

Timothy Dawson and Graham Sumner's By the Emperor's Hand: Military Dress and Court Regalia in the Later Romano-Byzantine Empire (https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/mwblog/book-review-emperors-hand-military-dress-court-regalia-later-romano-byzantine-empire/) covers post 13th Century Byzantines.

(http://width=737 height=960]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaVNAr0U0AAoRP7.jpg)

David Nicolle's Last Roman Elite from Military Illustrated #134 covers the stradiotai - see attachment below.

Some interesting images in Rare illustrations of Byzantine warriors at the renaissance book ‘Erotokritos’ of Vitsentzo Kornaro (https://medievalswordmanship.wordpress.com/2014/01/26/rare-illustrations-of-byzantine-warriors-at-the-renaissance-book-erotokritos-of-vitsentzo-kornaro/), though there's a caveat: The Erotokritos (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/showthread.php?tid=23504&pid=312278#pid312278).
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Atheling on June 06, 2020, 10:46:48 AM
Thanks again for the info Condottiere- always appreciated  8)

Do you have Medieval Warfare Special: The Conquest of Constantinople?

No, that's not one that I bought  :-X :-[

I'll put it on order now![/quote]

The root of the problem is essentially that I'm going to have to overcome are:

i/ I'm going to have to convert a lot of models- even choosing a place to begin is problematic.

ii/ Pay a sculptor to do it for me and release a range that I'm guessing won't sell very well as it will be perceived as a one shot 'army'.

Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: HappyChappy439 on June 06, 2020, 02:58:48 PM
Thanks @Condottiere!

At the moment I think I'm scratching my head over what sort of miniature to use as a base for plated-mail or 'mirror' armour, at first I was thinking using Mamluk figures as a base, but it looks like those are just as hard to find as the Byzantines!

There's a few paintings with leather(?) jerkins over tunics as well, so I was wondering whether the Perry WotR infantry liveried bodies could be adapted (with a bit of green stuff) to reflect that, but that might take some experimenting!

For lighter infantry, Old Glory Ottomans (with headswops) might work, I'm not sure how well they scale with other ranges though!
Title: Re: Looking for Images/Books of Palaeologos Dynasty Byzantines Circa 1453
Post by: Condottiere on June 19, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
 :o lol

I forgot to mention the anthology, A Companion to Medieval Arms and Armour (https://boydellandbrewer.com/a-companion-to-medieval-arms-and-armour.html). It's been a reference been a reference since 2005! It could be found for ~50% on Amazon.

Arms and Armour of the Late Roman Army - Jon Coulston
Scandinavian Weaponry in the Tenth Century: The Example of Denmark - Anne Pedersen
The Metallurgy of Medieval Arms and Armour - Alan Williams
The Earliest European Firearms - Marco Morin
Some Aspects of Early Byzantine Arms and Armour - John F. Haldon
Suntagma Hoplon The Equipment of Regular Byzantine Troops, c.950 to c.1204
The Lost Shield of Baldwin of Flanders and Hainault, First Latin Emperor of Constantinople - Claude Gaier
Later Byzantine Arms and Armour - Andrea Babuin
The Mutual Influence of Europe and Asia in the Field of Arms and Armour - Helmut Nickel
Arms and Armour in South-Eastern Europe in the Second Half of the First Millennium AD - Michael Gorelik
Close Combat Weapons in the Early Abbasid Period: Maces and Axes - Shihab al-Sarraf
Jawshan, Cuirie and Coat-of-Plates: An Alternative Line of Development for Hardened Leather Armour - David Nicolle

Babuin mentions possible Turkish influence on Byzantine clothing and armor, since the Roman Emperor was a vassal of the Ottomans in the late 1300s, contrasting with Dawson's theory of Turkish clothing and gear being influenced by the Byzantines. It's hard to tell who influenced whom, though Janissary clothing looked more like what was worn by people of the Balkans and Anatolia instead of looking like something from the Steppes.

Someone other than the author uploaded the entirety of Warfare in Late Byzantium, 1204-1453 to Scribd, but I won't link to it, as I dislike copyright infringement.