Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Bravo Six on May 25, 2020, 10:10:06 PM
-
You ever get one of those ideas for a project you've had rattling around in your head for years, but you're not sure how to go about it until you write it all down? This is one of those.
Ages ago I found myself being a reluctant fan of SeaQuest DSV. It fell flat in so many ways, but it was interesting in so many others. Especially the action under water. Sadly, it ended up getting worse as the seasons wore on, and it basically became Star Trek Underwater. In 2000 I started playing the PC Game Submarine Titans and that also fueled my desire to represent futuristic sub combat on a tabletop. Fast forward to now…. like most gamers, I need another project like I need a whole in the head, but I think this one may actually have some legs.
For ships, I always thought Cold Navy vessels from Ravenstar would be perfect for futuristic subs as they have that sort of look. And ocean floor buildings could be represented by any number of 6mm sci-fi buildings.
I have yet to locate an ocean floor style game mat, but am still looking.
Open to thoughts and input from anyone who also may have considered, or even gamed with idea before. There was an old topic on it ages ago on TMP and I think Nazrat and NVDoyle added their input but as I say that was ages ago and I can't seem to find the topic.
(https://i.imgur.com/ATpe37r.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eNrMRHn.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EAHpnoC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/sJSWazH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vdYukiy.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nycHam9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ssWZWxX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rqfl8K8.jpg)
-
Great idea for a project. Will be interested to see how this goes! X-Com Terror From the Deep somehow springs to mind here as well!
-
X-Com Terror From the Deep somehow springs to mind here as well!
Yes! That too!
-
Fantastic project idea.
All you need now is a kraken, a megalodon and a few kaiju. :)
-
I knew you would say that. ;)
I forgot about this game too. Never owned it but the screen caps looked good back in the day.
(https://i.imgur.com/NvJRs1Z.jpg)
-
The thing is, you could have two main "battle modes". Vessels fighting each other, and then another which is crew on undersea away missions/explorations, etc. Lots of scope with an idea such as this. Campaigns to gather artifacts from under the alien seas of Jupiter's moons... (ok I stole that from the computer game Barotrauma).
-
Ooooh. Good ideas. :D
-
I'm liking this :D
-
I'm liking this
;)
-
I'd like to find some tiny designs like these to buzz around the larger subs. Like sub-fighters I suppose.
(https://i.imgur.com/eRxfEY5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/D4T4o6U.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ySWO6Zt.jpg)
-
Very cool BravoSix,
I live in South Wales and regularly see lorries with DSV in big letters across the trailers and always think “budget cuts?” :) .
I love the idea and have wanted to do the same a couple of times over the years mainly inspired from an old amiga game called subwar 2050. I’d be tempted by some modded Full Thrust for the big subs and convoys etc, modified Silent Death for fighter sub duels and I’m not sure what for the sea bed chaps and vehicles side of things (sorry that last one isn’t much help - maybe striker?). GZGs various stargrunt and moon grunt chaps in lighter environment suits would suit if you wanted to go down to platoon size in 15mm.
Good luck with this I’m going to watch your progress and try not to start another project.
BALM
-
I live in South Wales and regularly see lorries with DSV in big letters across the trailers and always think “budget cuts?”
lol lol lol
Good luck with this I’m going to watch your progress and try not to start another project.
Sure ya do BALM. ;)
inspired from an old amiga game called subwar 2050
OH! I totally forgot about that game! ::)
-
I created a 40K submarine game called Aquanautica Imperials: Battle for the Depths.
Here is the link to the free rules PDF: https://app.box.com/s/b8g0spwqwow600z0ovii
Here is a battle report of how it went on the table: https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/09/battle-report-aquanautica-imperialis.html
Hopefully, it is helpful. I think this is a fertile area for gaming that is relatively unexplored.
-
The scale may be totally wrong, but matchbox did a Jurassic Park submarine model a few years ago. It claims 1:64 scale and you could sit a 28mm figure inside, but there's nothing about it that really suggests its scale.
(https://www.jurassic-toys.co.uk/ekmps/shops/167c1c/images/matchbox-jurassic-world-deep-dive-submarine-95-p.jpg)
Available to buy here (https://www.jurassic-toys.co.uk/matchbox-jurassic-world-deep-dive-submarine-95-p.asp) and pretty cheap.
If you do decide to have a 28mm component to it, eg diver combat, Reaper are worth checking out as they have some diver figures
-
Hey, thanks for the input guys!
@Easy E, those rules look great! Some good ideas in there.
-
I guess years of starship gaming has ingrained hexes into my brain, but I was thinking a hex mat would be good for something like futuristic sub combat.
Looking for something exactly like this, if anyone knows where I can find one. Love the effect of the water ripple on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/1dYDR5K.jpg)
That was was listed as a "Heroscape Water Mat" on Worthpoint, but I can't actually find it aside from that listing.
-
There is a yahoo group for a game called Conn Sonar. Just join and you can pick up the rules and data charts for free. It is a modern sub warfare game. I haven’t played it yet but it seems intriguing, innovative and not too complex. I just don’t have any suitable subs at the moment. I have often thought that maybe the modern sub theme slightly limits its potential. You can justify more subs on the table perhaps in Sci-Fi. I highly recommend you at least have a look.
-
I reckon a bit of work spaceships might yield some good future submarine results.
Thinking a adding half pearls for portholes, that sort of thing.
You could even go cheap with something like these from the Plastic Soldier Company.
https://www.theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/?s=space&post_type=product
-
I guess years of starship gaming has ingrained hexes into my brain, but I was thinking a hex mat would be good for something like futuristic sub combat.
Looking for something exactly like this, if anyone knows where I can find one. Love the effect of the water ripple on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/1dYDR5K.jpg)
That was was listed as a "Heroscape Water Mat" on Worthpoint, but I can't actually find it aside from that listing.
Bullshot had a nice underwater mat on the VSF board in “Bullshot Goes Underwater”...it’s a Deepwars Mat. Personally I prefer to use a sandy coloured mat, but that’s just me. I did some Stingray themed underwater action a few years ago inspired by South London Warlords, using theirs and other rule sets.
-
Oh hey, that sounds really cool, looking forwards to see how this topic progresses.
-
Great idea for a project (one I've mulled over myself a few times over the years)!
In 28mm there's Gripping Beast's Sci Fi Laser Troopers jump to mind
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/product-filter/sci-fi,soapys+scifi (https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/product-filter/sci-fi,soapys+scifi)
Plus I'm sure Crooked Dice have some offerings that would work too.
-
Thanks for all the input guys. I'll probably just focus on ship to ship combat. Scale will be loose. Whatever looks good together.
There is a yahoo group for a game called Conn Sonar. Just join and you can pick up the rules and data charts for free.
Thanks Commander Roj. They're a Facebook Group, and I don't do Facebook. :(
Personally I prefer to use a sandy coloured mat, but that’s just me.
I think that's the preference for a lot of people. I'm going to avoid light colors, and vibrant coral and colors to convey the illusion of deep dark ocean. Again, Submarine Titans serves as an influence.
(https://i.imgur.com/OZ7PC84.jpg)
-
I can definitely see how doing everything in shades of blue will sell the idea better than sand colors!
-
It'll be weird painting rocky outcrops a blue color! ;D
-
Thanks for all the input guys. I'll probably just focus on ship to ship combat. Scale will be loose. Whatever looks good together.
Thanks Commander Roj. They're a Facebook Group, and I don't do Facebook. :(
(https://i.imgur.com/OZ7PC84.jpg)
I meant Facebook, sorry. I often get this stuff muddled up! Can’t say I blame you. I only use if for very limited hobby purposes myself.
-
It'll be weird painting rocky outcrops a blue color! ;D
I;ve seen some deepwars terrain done quite well with a very limited pallet enhances by little spots of vibrant coral/plantlife.
-
No worries Commander. It happens. ;)
Thanks MM. I'll have to Google some Deepwars terrain for ideas and inspiration.
-
This Deepwars terrain looks pretty good actually. The grey rocks look pretty good against the reef style mat.
(https://i.imgur.com/BdMFc3H.jpg)
-
I've had a project similar to yours bubbling away on the back of the stove for a while, Bravo. My raw material for subs is defunct hair trimmers and shavers:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e8lfryI317N2M542gNg8vtVO5JGtB3sgnCZkcWaaWY8O1p9bYxlfIVC2Z7I5W30DVyQlfzgCPgsXBjLwG8pXHh1ohsxo_FmMZqwo72LZdRm9sLgBoZc5vJp2vIl95Hs_1r6wdN4FcbTckxokeXtyfn=w560-h380-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fU9CNAe2-pO57Jvg0EdqXEU-TYYKbsXx_tl-Ur3292HOmJl3GQIq5aNXzaXRSPPhZQqROLpiWHROukv7vhDLmOR-cCBLVzMHMjArd_WCBg7OwX-3N9fGY9obKAUPNtVePhGyoAr-IFrUbCwVpJZGI4=w560-h380-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eyiaYSH5RsaQ3lfbQ94NlO21gvSlsoU381OXmG8J4WkKkgaj0VhaLYr_Ql0DMGyP7nKleRRcxluFHR45T9heo76Z28fh8JRGxXR3JWRmbAW5NXQVf7UHmk7WvfJqis7Y9qzoZdX8VlJr3fxipqH3aA=w567-h382-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
I'm aiming for a sort of "heavy starfighter" feel to how these 'subfighters' move and fight. They're big, armoured, capable of Mach 1+, and armed with nuclear torpedoes with semi-intelligent warheads.
But in truth, the real fun is in finding an old domestic appliance and seeing it go from potential landfill to a nice modelling project! :)
-
That is fantastic!
They certainly look the part as well.
-
I've had a project similar to yours bubbling away on the back of the stove for a while, Bravo. My raw material for subs is defunct hair trimmers and shavers:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e8lfryI317N2M542gNg8vtVO5JGtB3sgnCZkcWaaWY8O1p9bYxlfIVC2Z7I5W30DVyQlfzgCPgsXBjLwG8pXHh1ohsxo_FmMZqwo72LZdRm9sLgBoZc5vJp2vIl95Hs_1r6wdN4FcbTckxokeXtyfn=w560-h380-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fU9CNAe2-pO57Jvg0EdqXEU-TYYKbsXx_tl-Ur3292HOmJl3GQIq5aNXzaXRSPPhZQqROLpiWHROukv7vhDLmOR-cCBLVzMHMjArd_WCBg7OwX-3N9fGY9obKAUPNtVePhGyoAr-IFrUbCwVpJZGI4=w560-h380-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eyiaYSH5RsaQ3lfbQ94NlO21gvSlsoU381OXmG8J4WkKkgaj0VhaLYr_Ql0DMGyP7nKleRRcxluFHR45T9heo76Z28fh8JRGxXR3JWRmbAW5NXQVf7UHmk7WvfJqis7Y9qzoZdX8VlJr3fxipqH3aA=w567-h382-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
I'm aiming for a sort of "heavy starfighter" feel to how these 'subfighters' move and fight. They're big, armoured, capable of Mach 1+, and armed with nuclear torpedoes with semi-intelligent warheads.
But in truth, the real fun is in finding an old domestic appliance and seeing it go from potential landfill to a nice modelling project! :)
I love these! More on this project please! I am however left wondering why you had so many hair clippers...
-
I love these! More on this project please! I am however left wondering why you had so many hair clippers...
That's a fair question! By way of reply, I'll start a separate thread, rather than hijack Bravo's. (The more futuristic underwater combat topics the better!!) :D
-
Thanks Martin. The more the merrier! :D
-
That's a fair question! By way of reply, I'll start a separate thread, rather than hijack Bravo's. (The more futuristic underwater combat topics the better!!) :D
Outstanding!
-
I am however left wondering why you had so many hair clippers...
lol lol lol
-
There's a PS4 game I was unaware of called "Subnautica" which looks like it has plenty of good ideas in it.
http://subnauticagame.com/
-
BravoSix,
Subnautica (which is great fun and I’ve been playing since it’s beta release - including clipping into an area under development and baffling the designers with my screenshots of areas it wasn’t yet possible to reach) has some nice ideas for habitats and wildlife but has no actual combat and only a saucer like mini-sub, a Prawn exo-suit and a bigger normal exploratory sub. Although the prawn suit is quite cool ( and modifiable with a drill, claws or grapple) and can probably be easily represented using power armour (like gzg’s NAC power armour). There is a second version of the game about to be released which is set under ice pack.
BALM
And in reply to your comment about me starting a new project - How dare you know me so well sir! I may have spent all night using my insomnia to stare at my notes for changing full thrust and reading Silent death to realise that you don’t really need to change anything if you didn’t want to, just say it’s underwater. But that doesn’t prove anything!
-
And in reply to your comment about me starting a new project - How dare you know me so well sir! I may have spent all night using my insomnia to stare at my notes for changing full thrust and reading Silent death to realise that you don’t really need to change anything if you didn’t want to, just say it’s underwater. But that doesn’t prove anything!
I agree to a certain extent, but for me the holy grail of Sci-Fi sub warfare is a game of tense, stealthy, stalking that erupts into frenetic action, with lots of subs and drones. I tried the Warlords Stingray rules and tampered with them a bit for “streamlining” but ultimately I didn’t get the stealthy bit. I think that scenarios could help with that, providing both sides with an incentive to push the action along.
https://flickr.com/photos/65020607@N05/sets/72157646937370738 (https://flickr.com/photos/65020607@N05/sets/72157646937370738)
-
Cmdr.Roj
I’ve only just started looking at SD again so was pleased to see things like drift (and of course) torpedoes being really suitable for the setting. I don’t know (or haven’t found yet) if it has rules for using blips/blinds and having spotting ranges (dependent on time of day/ surface weather etc) but I think they probably wouldn’t be that hard to introduce into the system ( maybe a pilot skill check or add in a spotting ability dependant on tech/skill level). I will keep investigating and report my findings. I may be considering knocking up some sub fighter minis too :)
BALM
-
Those are great in game photos Commander!
And in reply to your comment about me starting a new project - How dare you know me so well sir!
;) It's the gamers curse BALM. I know it well.
Thanks for the input on Subnautica. I wasn't sure if it had sub combat or not, but the game looked like it had some inspirational elements in it for creating an undersea world.
-
I have SD, but have never gotten around to playing it, so I will have to have a look. I don’t recall any stealth aspect, but I might be wrong.
“ I will keep investigating and report my findings. I may be considering knocking up some sub fighter minis too”
Please!
I only just realised why you keep writing BALM! lol
-
Dotto, Bravo's comments on your photos, Cdr. Roj. I recall seeing those some time ago when I first contemplated my own Stingray game. I particularly like the bigger / command / super Terrorfish; is that an original design?
-
I am glad you like them. A friend from the Starship Combat News forum made all the models for me. I designed the “Leviathan”. It’s a shame I lost touch with him, and he made some great models. You might notice that there is a “minnow” Terror fish too. He came up with that one. I used the Werelords rules, but also used some of my own with the children based on the some basic Air war rules and some damage/ event cards. No stealthy action (apart from Terrorfish ambushes).
-
I was thinking about similar ideas myself. I recently read the Hind Commander (http://assaultpublishing.com/about-hind-commander/#:~:text=Hind%20Commander%20is%20the%20first,modern%2C%20hypothetical%2C%20conventional%20conflict. (http://assaultpublishing.com/about-hind-commander/#:~:text=Hind%20Commander%20is%20the%20first,modern%2C%20hypothetical%2C%20conventional%20conflict.)) rules seeking to convert it into a submarine game. Players put down their helicopters as counter initially then need to detect the enemy (with different helicopters being better able to detect than others), then need lock on (also varies between helicopters) and also has evasive action (ability varies on size of submarine). I think it could provide a basis but I do not think it works solo so that is me out.
There is also a science fiction version of the rules called Shadows in the Void but I have not read them.
-
You might want to take a look at Shadows in the void as well, its the sci-fi fighter spin of from hind commander, by the same writer and the rules are currently pay what you want. http://assaultpublishing.com/shadows-in-the-void/ (http://assaultpublishing.com/shadows-in-the-void/)
-
I think that is worth a look. Thanks.
-
The hardest part of subwarfare from a design aspect is the detection components. Tabletop games just do not have a great way to handle detection in an authentic way. For true stealth situations, the opponent should have no idea where the enemy is until they attack or give away their position.
Obviously, this can be difficult in a tabletop wargame where models represent the enemy and players have a god's eye view. There are only a handful of ways I have thought of to deal with this problem:
1. The easiest is, you don't. You assume that by the time the battle breaks out everyone knows about where everyone is and stealth is discarded in order to fight. A somewhat unsatisfying soultion to the issue.
2. Use Blips/Blinds. These represent the approximate location of various vessels and the blips are revealed by various actions such as shooting, active sonar pings, etc. Better, but players still have a relative idea of where an enemy is and can be fiddly in execution.
3. Non-detected units are placed in reserve and enter the board when they are "detected" at any depth or board edge they wish. However, it feels more like the non-detected craft is just late to the party.
4. Deployment nodes where once a vessel is detected they can be deployed within X distance of the node. Allows players to get an idea of where the enemy will appear and plan for it, but not the precise location.
5. Detection checks, where you can not fire until you pass a detection check. However, it does not "solve" the issue of a player having a God's eye view.
6. Allow vessels to ultimately "deep strike" anywhere onto the board if undetected. However, this means they WILL get to Alpha Strike. Players hate when they get Alpha Striked.
7. Double Blinds where each player has their own "board" that is identical and only moves vessels on their own board until they are detected and then they go onto the opponent's board too. Very cumbersome and fiddly, but probably the most realistic. Best if used on a board game.
How you handle stealth is up to you as the designer, but there is no right or wrong answer as it depends on what you want to emphasize in the rules. Submarine games and Aerial games both have similar yet unique challenges for a designer. Read lots of these types of rules as I suppose their are other solutions I missed out on above, but a good solid understanding of aerial and sub games will only benefit you in creating what you wish.
-
Thanks for all the excellent points Easy. Much appreciated and yes I agree.... detection components can be tricky to get it "right". That said, sometimes in our hobby, realism has to make way for simplicity and just plain fun.
7. Double Blinds where each player has their own "board" that is identical and only moves vessels on their own board until they are detected and then they go onto the opponent's board too
Hey, kinda like Battleship the game! :D
-
Or more recently, and right on topic, Matagot’s Captain Sonar/Sonar games. (In my house we love this game, but I am not sure we could glean much from it for a game like this, before I send people off after a red herring.)
-
This one? https://www.matagot.com/en/catalog/details/expert-games/1/captain-sonar/808
Sounds alot like the old FASA Star Trek Starship Combat Tactical Simulator game I used to play constantly with my friends back in the 80's.
-
I don’t know if it is similar to the FASA game, but that is the one, although we have the Sonar version (requires less people, I wondered how often we would get eight...). It is elegantly simple though, you can play with a ten year old (and get beaten :-[). I am not sure that is a hallmark of FASA games.
-
I have and have played a fair bit of Hind Commander and it is a good game that (if I remember correctly) provided a really enjoyable experience. Somehow my favourite opponent and I managed to break it (but I can’t remember how - maybe just too much on the table) but for smaller engagements it was great so if there is a sci-fi version it might be worth a look (although converting the original may be fine). The author is an odd chap, my friend and I offered him a computer program for building forces and providing a play sheet and force list in a nice layout (All my friends work I was just there for my charm and wit ;) ) and he just stared at us and said no. We didn’t want anything we just wanted more people to discover HC and this weird interaction kind of ruined our enthusiasm for it which was a shame.
CmdrRoj - The BALM affection was for practicalities sake as the full title is the name of my blog (which I don’t advertise, oddly) and most of my forum tags and I only realised afterwards how much hassle my whole title was for me and respondents to type out. Also my hobby is the last one I can still really physically do and is a balm for my soul :)
BALM.
-
I hear good things about the Dropfleet Commander rules - basically each ship can only be targeted if its electronic signature can be detected, so shooting, accelerated movement, hard maneuvering etc all push up the distance ships can be targeted from.
-
...and is a balm for my soul
Love it! Well said. :D
The hallmark of the FASA game, Commander Roj, was definitely not simplicity. And I think at one time we had a bridge crew of 5 or 6. Captain, Science Officer, Tactical, Engineer, Helm and Communications officer all manning a station. Was loads of fun.
-
BravoSix what is your ideal miniature size for the fighter subs and bigger multi person gunboats? (probably not the correct term but that’s what Silent Death calls them). I’ve had some ideas and if I can drag myself away from the newly acquired Red Dead 2 and re-heading and re-sculpting Peter Pig cowboys I’ll start to knock some prototypes up.
BALM
-
Do you mean scale wise? Right now I'm starting with larger vessels (Ravenstar's Cold Navy) and work my way smaller later on. I guess due to "whatever's out there" it's going to be mix and match visually.
-
Cypher makes a good point about DFC; it has a mechanic at its heart which ensures that stealth is front and centre of everything.
In truth, there is little to support it in a space combat game; vacuum is notoriously difficult to conceal things in. But, the principle applies, and is something I incorporated into my alpha rules for Glory Deep. Its essence is:
- More actions by a unit = Unit's vulnerability increases
- Less actions by a unit = Unit's vulnerability decreases
- No actions by a unit = Unit's vulnerability minimised
This gets to the heart of how sonar works; things make noise when they do something. That sound radiates, is detected, amplified, and betrays the origin of that something. Do nothing - 'run silent' - and you decrease the risk of being heard, because you're doing nothing. Nuclear boats have a big disadvantage here compared to diesel electrics, because they cannot be completely silent; they need to constantly pump water to cool their reactors.
In part, this is why foreign SSK's keep sinking US carriers in exercises. US Navy sonar personnel are used to practicing their craft with their navy's SSN's, so lack experience 'painting' diesel electrics.
Keep that in mind while we look a few decades into our future. Pretty soon, big data computing and stupidly sensitive receivers will combine to effectively strip away the concealment of the depths. General Electric and Naval Group are already investing in this. It will lead to the biggest naval revolution since USS Nautilus.
Within a certain range, submarines will lose all hope of remaining undetected. These sensors can distinguish between the sounds of thermal fluid dynamics as temperatures ebb and flow through the water. That's bad for a submarine, because its hull is a big, solid thing that doesn't ebb and flow! Also, the ocean is actually alive with sounds; microbubbles pop, shrimp snap, temperature layers 'rub' and create friction. It's all there, if you have the ears to hear. Therefore, if you find a stable volume of temperature that is suspiciously silent - you've found a submarine.
If what I've researched isn't just advertising spin, this data can be combined into a picture - literally - of the surrounding volume of water in all directions. It can be translated into an actual on-screen representation of the water, sea floor, surface, and everything in between. It's called Sonar Visual Reconstruction Environment (SVRE). When you match this to the new sensors and some seriously expensive computers, you can actually visualise a submarine on your screen, with sufficient resolution to match its form to a database, and identify it.
If all this proves to be true (and the US Navy thinks so - they were putting out for tenders for this 7 years ago - https://www.sbir.gov/node/592541 (https://www.sbir.gov/node/592541) ), then the undersea battlespace will look more like the air battlespace does now: You can run, but you can't hide. Unless you have some damn serious EW package onboard.
This evidence suggests we're all being a little too 'Hollywood' in our thinking about submarine warfare. It's not Sean Connery and "one ping only" but Pat Stewart and "on screen, Mr Worf!"
I think this means Dropfleet Commander has its setting all wrong; it's not a fight in space, it's all 5 fathoms down! lol
-
Cypher makes a good point about DFC; it has a mechanic at its heart which ensures that stealth is front and centre of everything.
In truth, there is little to support it in a space combat game; vacuum is notoriously difficult to conceal things in. But, the principle applies, and is something I incorporated into my alpha rules for Glory Deep. Its essence is:
- More actions by a unit = Unit's vulnerability increases
- Less actions by a unit = Unit's vulnerability decreases
- No actions by a unit = Unit's vulnerability minimised
I did something similar, and what it did in practice was make people not want to move. Only the balancing of inflicting damage/accomplishing the mission vs. getting blown up created the desire to act. Their were opposed Detection vs. Evasion rolls to work out the issues.
Perhaps, instead of detection being impacted the Line-of-sight could be impacted. I think we talked about this a bit on Dakka, but instead of inaction impacting their ability to e detected, it reduced the "spotting distance" to/from enemy subs?
Just a thought.
-
Perhaps, instead of detection being impacted the Line-of-sight could be impacted. I think we talked about this a bit on Dakka, but instead of inaction impacting their ability to e detected, it reduced the "spotting distance" to/from enemy subs?
Just a thought.
Not sure what this means. You can detect but you perhaps can’t get a shot?
So far I agree on movement/detection corollary above, and I believe turn limited scenarios can solve the issue, especially if you throw cheap drone/fighters into the mix to flush out the bigger fish...but if a case to the contrary is compelling...
-
I guess I mean an easier way to do detection might be the more stuff they do, the further away they can be targeted at. Essentially, the 'target" controls the range instead of the firer.
So, a Sub not doing anything could be shot at by another vessel that gets within 4 Movement Units base. However, if it also moves, dives, and shoots itself, that could increase its bubble to 16 Movement Units? There is no opposed rolling or detection roll needed, but using your actions appropriately still has consequences.
I think it would require some work on the table to test out.....
-
So nice to pop in and see this has brought people back to the idea of future sub combat... Like the end of the GI JOE film, its was just aircraft but underwater..
As the other gentleman said... in the future it be very hard to hide, and it be speed and dodging that count..
Work on the rules for moving and shooting and then come back to the detection rules at a later date.. you may say " we don`t need them" etc... As pointed out the dropship rules could be a cool idea...
I was also working on this a few years ago... need to dig my rules out.... subs was blips, the moment the first person fired he appeared on the board and then it was a case of who wants to shoot next... then all models appeared at some point to chase each other down... maybe start at that point.. rules for movement and shooting and then backtrack... for me the hardest part was the detection part... keep up the good work all...
-
Yes, detection is the hardest BUT I would argue also the most critical to differentiating a Sub game from a car combat or aerial game.
-
Yes, detection is the hardest BUT I would argue also the most critical to differentiating a Sub game from a car combat or aerial game.
A WW2 or modern sub game, yes. But I suspect it will become less consequential in a few decades, given the technologies now being developed. Let me develop an argument here, because I think we are putting the cart before the seahorse when we get into the grit of detection mechanics before we even know when or where the game might take place.
The Stingray tribute games I have seen did not dwell on detection as a core mechanic. This was probably the right call, because the source material did not make sonar and stealth key plot devices. In that respect, one could argue that Stingray was actually Fireball XL5 in a fishtank; it could just as easily have been set in outer space.
In other words, a Stingray game does not need complex sonar rules to accurately capture the feel of the show. In fact, such rules might harm such a game, because it slows the action down, and does not reflect what we see on our TV screens.
Another game setting could be that which extrapolates current submarine development to its logical conclusion: A future vision in which excellent sensors, coupled with seriously fast data translation systems would make the ocean depths as digitally transparent as air. There are very good grounds to advocate that prediction, for we know that's the direction modern navies are exploring. That vision justifies a future sub game that plays similarly to air or space combat wargames.
With that in mind, I think it is more appropriate to question not what we are trying to simulate, but why. Why do we want a game that portrays futuristic undersea battles? What's the hook? How is it different from the hundreds of other hardware fire-and-maneuver wargames out there?
In fact, is it any different, or is this something that can be gamed perfectly well by modding (say) X-Wing, Full Thrust, or even Wings of War?
That certainly depends on your vision of undersea combat in the future. If there is a hook (aside from 'submarines are cool'), it is probably the issue of detection. The fact is, we have a rather cliched, pop culture gestalt of what sub combat looks like - basically, it is Hunt for Red October, with subs sneaking up, 'crazy Ivans', "one ping only", torpedoes everywhere, breeching 688 Class boats (straight out of Stingray!) and terrible Russian accents. ;)
If that is the kind of stuff we want to see in a game, then I suggest we need to accept that the objective is not to accurately reflect trends in real submarine development, but to create a 'space opera' (sea opera?) setting, in which the tech does not follow present development paths.
Personally, I don't see much wrong with this. After all, Stingray is still a fun show, and none of its future tech has come to reality, and in fact now looks amusingly dated. (As does much of Star Trek's, but I still game it!) So, I think we're looking to model an alternate reality, in which submarines still rely on acoustic sonar, and the skilful ears of sonar techs.
If that is the right direction, then we need to decide the tech level of our setting. Could it be a 'retro future' such as Stingray portrayed (as we perceive it now)? How about a post-apocalypse world, with tech frozen at (say) 1980s levels? An alternate WW2, with German super-subs fighting French submarine cruisers with 10 inch guns?
Once we have decided on the setting for the game, then we can look to mechanics that simulate its technologies.
-
How about a alternate world setting,similar in flavour to Crimson Skies/ Michael Moorcock?
-
Lots of interesting discussion.
Martin, it's good to see your Sci-Fi subs once again!
-
Lots of interesting discussion.
Martin, it's good to see your Sci-Fi subs once again!
Mako! Good to see you! :)
Keep watching, because I have some more to come!
-
There's another wrinkle to submarine warfare that no-one else has mentioned -- the almost total lack of communication.
Submarines struggle to communicate when submerged at depth at the best of times. If they do send a signal, then they are immediately spotted by every opponent (in the modern world) -- unless they surface and send a tight beam to a satellite, which is not wise in combat operations.
So your commanders cannot command. They cannot send reliable signals to their units, and their units cannot send back any information that they have.
It's far worse than the "Battleship" double board system. Each submarine is operating entirely independently.
-
Mark Plant makes a very good point; this inability of submarines to communicate on a tactical level has long been a problem for naval planners. In essence, each SSN or SSK hunts alone, rarely coordinated in 'wolfpack' formations. Even if a formation of subs is directed toward the same target, their cooperation becomes impossible during the actual attack, because of the need to maintain silence and stealth.
By that reasoning, a game of multiple submarines fighting each other cannot present the tactical conditions facing real, modern sub commanders.
We must assume a significant alteration of the conditions - one in which the advantages of instantaneous coordination outweigh the loss of concealment.
That suggests to me once again a 'transparent' ocean, in which speed and maneuver are more useful than silence and stealth.
-
My thoughts would be that if we are aiming for a hard Sci-Fi version, we can discern some trends but we can’t predict reality with confidence. There may be advances in detection, but I seem to recall (I can’t reference, sorry) that there are efforts a counter detection too. If drones can be used to make a lot of underwater noise, perhaps some of the utility of such systems can be drowned out, not to mention efforts at actively cloaking a platform with artificial marine sounds. What I am trying to say is, detection can still feature if we want it to.
Communication too. Blue-green lasers have been suggested for detection, but could also be used for comms too.
I would like to see a game that transitions from detection to high speed, almost dogfight like action. A game where players are trying to push their luck to gain detection and positional advantage, balancing the need to act with trying to remain undetected until they make the decision (or are forced) to throw caution away.
I’m not so into sub fighters (manned), but would like to see drones. Including the drones I would aim for roughly 5-7 platforms a side. That is where I am coming from. The USP, would be how it transitions from a creeping/ stealth game to something more akin to an aerial dogfight style style game.
Roj.
-
Making a sub game into a flight game would be ridiculously easy. I say this from experience as my game is basically Aeronautica Imperialis, but with subs instead of planes. Just take out the detection bits and it IS just upside down planes.
All you need to do is re-skin Blue Maxx (or its various copycat games). Except going down is harder than going up in a sub game. You have various max depths and below = destroyed. You could even get rid of "maneuvers" like you have in traditional airplane games since subs do not do Immelman's or Wing Overs. Honestly, a super fast paced sub game that apes a space fighter/airplane game would be super simple to do.
That's why it sort of bores me.... but that is just me. I feel it really needs some strong "Hook" other than the genre.
-
Ah, but Easy E, it is a game of . You start of sort of sneaky push, until you decide to go for broke (at least with one or more platforms, but probably not all). It is the bluffing, pushing your luck, flushing out and finally the burst of acceleration and “ super cavitation torpedo’s away!” Not an air game, just finishes a bit like one. I’m biased though, I like air games. But do you see what I am driving at? You don’t start a ‘60’s - 70’s- air game trying to hide, it’s all tight turns, climbs and dives (no pun intended) from the outset. That’s why the game I favour isn’t a modern sub game or an air game. It is something unique to itself somewhere in between.
-
Fair enough. I am eager to see what you come up with.
I am surprised that more air war games (WWI to Korea) do not feature more "hiding" based on my readings of history. That is a topic for another day though.
60's+ I get that radar and other detection reduces that. There it is more about ECM vs ECCM.
-
I managed to finally put together some Ork submarines for Aquanautica Imperialis: Battle for the Depths. I have 3 Grot Subz and 1 Sneaky Git. The Sneaky Git is a larger, multi-hit Ork sub.
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/48298/202007/97_47ee59f2437f8e9505b1071fba6482b5_t.jpeg?Expires=1595734968&Signature=NtLSCBz09GWheQIVpGt6sfI3Lx8iBa2r8W0jSW21XAbc8IHMv6NzbdofjxG4j0BaVYfRUG8jorxfmeKr1Z~QWz15us4FHC9mCY3za-0jgp5bioS1TrVDJiTF0vosW9kIMbE5dkHPc5uwmDFvoCAaHAtRPsO~M3pRhhGsyr9IZA5BnliY~MahS499OeXEz9Yaf6YeQssTt7dpR~MDN5qo3NOHH5GyM9x1ETXkC9ctb1X7urrX7DluLdYpHtFtP3e1YjvdR0rR0qHx76bcRnOkEQIuEzAWnarPOI7CkjUmlMmVXjidfAPPGFuD3oOA7AieK3OrG0UmHIG5AnFIoh0bjQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)
These were quickly made using Sculpey in 1 evening, and painted the next evening. I used cheap, craft acrylic paints available at your local Big Box retailers, using craft brushes from the same big box retailers. These were pretty inexpensive to build and paint. With Ork vehicles you cna get a bit sloppy and it is okay.
The Imperial Submarines will need to take much more time. I am hoping to model it a bit on the British E-class subs.
-
Easy E, those look very....... "ork-ish". :D
-
I added more thoughts about Stealth and Detection in Wargames on my Blog.
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2020/08/wargame-design-detection-and-stealth-in.html
I was really thinking about Subs and airplanes, but it applies to a broader range of topics. Commander Roj you may be interested.
-
Perhaps push it into really sci fi territory and have things like cuttlefish inspired LED skins on the subs that allow for formation communication - each unit could have its own pattern language with encrypted levels of colour and pattern.
Or perhaps you could include a more roleplay style element to the game where commanders each have a disposition through which orders must be filtered with certain commanders being a bonus or a detriment to the units ability to work together.
-
That second one is something you see often in Horse and Musket style games, so why not a future subgame? Individual commander preferences could make a difference in such a game.
-
Like one commander's proclivity to pull a "Crazy Ivan?"
lol
Ok, having served the better part of a decade on a submarine, and having seen all this sonar detection stuff played out over and over in real life, I'll say that detection is VERY hard. Diesel electric sounds sexy, but it isn't magic and frankly all the junk in a nuclear submarine that makes noise (water pumps, primarily) is really cold war era stuff. I lived on a nuclear submarine that was as impossible to find as anything in the ocean. All those shrimp and whale farts were easier to find than that old "built in the 90's" submarine. Every "we can find a submarine" brag I've ever heard was just garbage. ISAR radars, towed array hydrophones, underwater cables laid out with the purpose of finding sneaky subs... nothing. Sub hunter planes, even when we were at periscope depth and snorkeling with the diesel engine, needed to be guided in (by us) like a boy trying to get laid the first time. "Am I there?" No... not yet, and quit getting so excited. Move to the left. There... no, wait, you flew right by it. Try again. lol
Because of this, when we played war games with other subs we are assigned layers of water to stay in, and only have unrestricted access to the surface in particular zones because it is far too likely that two sneaky subs in the same area will simply just run into each other if there isn't some precaution taken. I get the vision for the future, but keep in mind that every step towards "seeing" is well met with a step towards "staying unseen." Radar is met with stealth planes, etc. The best detection capabilities come from satellites, but those give you "where it was" info, and not where it is. Strategic decision making, not tactical.
Aircraft carriers get sunk in war games because they are stupidly loud, surrounded by stupidly loud escorts trying to pick out a whisper in the middle of a sound environment the equivalent of a Rolling Stones concert.
You know what gets submarines detected? No kidding? Slamming toilet lids. Toilets aren't sound isolated. Big clunk, lots of detectable noise. Dropping a wrench in the bilge would also be a bad thing. Detection is probably more about crew discipline than anything mechanical about a submarine.
-
Thanks for the insights, Andrew B!
It's great to gain some views from someone who has actually lived beneath the waves. Trying to gain a 'feel' for what it must be like, I've consulted with another submariner at my club, and my father who spent his professional life designing things to hear you and your underwater brethren, slamming toilet lids or otherwise. ;)
One of his better insights is that the rear tubes on RAN Oberons were re-tasked to carry beer, rather than fire torps. :D
But, like Star Trek doesn't reflect real space travel, we're not trying to recreate the technological reality of modern sub combat here; I think most of us would agree that what we're exploring is as much fiction as it is science. 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea without the rivets. Or maybe X-Wing, but wet!
A question if I might: Just how tough was it for a sub to find another sub with the same or similar qualities? Is it really possible for modern subs to collide when they're sneaking around, trying to find each other, or is there a range at which detection becomes almost certain? Has Hollywood and writers like Clancy misled us for dramatic license? In short: Was Ivan really that crazy??? ;D
-
Biomimetic Underwater Vehicles seem to be a style of submarine that could have a real role in the future of undersea warfare, if only in the recon and intel roles. But who knows where this might lead... A real Titanian Mechanical Fish??
(http://www.hisutton.com/images/Biomimetic_Cn_RoboShark.jpg)
From the Covert Shores website:
"A Chinese project to develop a military AUV with high speed and high payload. It claims to have low flow noise and a sonar-absorbing coating. It can be used for ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance), particularly bottom survey, search and communications."
(http://readme.lk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Boston-Engineering.jpg)
I think I want one of these... isn't it cute? :D
(http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/m/liaoning/investinshenyang/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20180522/286ed488c7e51c6e26bd04.jpg)
-
I guess my big question is still, what makes a submarine game different than a space fighter game?
-
I guess my big question is still, what makes a submarine game different than a space fighter game?
Distance (and associated communication delay) plus a top speed limit.
Oh, and only self powered weapons - no energy weapons or non powered rounds.
-
A question if I might: Just how tough was it for a sub to find another sub with the same or similar qualities? Is it really possible for modern subs to collide when they're sneaking around, trying to find each other, or is there a range at which detection becomes almost certain? Has Hollywood and writers like Clancy misled us for dramatic license? In short: Was Ivan really that crazy??? ;D
Truthfully, it is much more difficult than you might think to detect most submarines that are engaged in operations to keep them undetected, and yes... collision is not unheard of.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_and_Le_Triomphant_submarine_collision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vanguard_and_Le_Triomphant_submarine_collision)
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/nuclear-submarine-crash-us-and-russian-submarine-smashed-each-other-72121 (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/nuclear-submarine-crash-us-and-russian-submarine-smashed-each-other-72121)
The best reason that collisions aren't more prevalent may be because the ocean is a big darned space and despite the incidents above there are typically lots of intelligence reports that keep subs away from each other. We got regular reports about underwater hydrophones, ships towing sonar arrays (friendly and foreign), satellites that posed a detection risk, etc. Being undetected means just that. NOBODY knows where you are, and it is an outright mission failure (for ballistic missile submarines) to be detected by any source. We got grades based on this. Essentially when we returned from patrol we told "the big brains" where we had been (subs are often prescribed water space, but have no mandate to travel on a particular course, speed, heading, etc) and then they compared our tippy-toeing around the ocean to possible submarine detection. If we were near the location when they thought they heard a sub, we were caught and that was bad news. In seven patrols, a total time of about 490 days submerged, our submarine was never detected. This wasn't "amazing performance" it was the standard, and I know of only one incident that I can remember where this wasn't the case. It was like the choir director farted in church. All across the waterfront people whispered and pointed at the shameful behavior as if the crew screwed something up lol
Probably better not to play too realistic. Wet X-wing would be far more fun. ;)
-
I guess my big question is still, what makes a submarine game different than a space fighter game?
Hide and seek.
Even with the subfighter theme I'm developing for Glory Deep, there must be the uncertainty that comes from reaching blindly into the abyssal darkness, hoping you find the other guy before he finds you.
Even though there are good grounds to predict that technological developments will tip the scales towards the seeker, over the hider, in the near future, as Andrew B points out every step towards detection is met with one towards remaining unseen. A bit like the unending battle between penetration versus armour since the days of spear and shield.
With my vision of future sub combat, I am working to the idea that once things get noisy, a game quickly resembles a jet-fighter furball. But there must first be a certain cat-and-mouse aspect as forces close, silently seeking each other, carefully laying decoys and setting up mines, UUV's and other surprises. This stealthy approach is almost always missing from space games.
At present, I think this model requires a game of Glory Deep to be split into two, separate games: The Hide and Seek game, and then the actual fight.
You could of course 'cut to the chase' and just play the fight, but doing so takes away much of the flavour of the setting, in my opinion.
I'm also working on a mechanic which simulates a torpedo searching for its target over multiple turns, without the need to place or track a physical model or chit upon the table. I've found this increases the sense of anxiety of a player as they know they are being hunted, and must judge if it is better to go all-out to elude their relentless pursuer, or risk taking their shots while death closes in, the pinging of its sonar getting louder by the second...!
Andrew B - That's a pretty amazing achievement to a noisy landlubber like me, and gives a great insight into the actuality of SSBN operations. The fact such a performance was considered SOP is even more amazing! Hollywood really does have a lot to answer for!
And you're right - if that's the reality, then soggy Skywalker would make a more fun game. :D
-
Possible idea - how about you make your force list before the game, and have a generic token for each sub alongside its actual miniature. at the start of the game only the tokens are on the table and when they come within a certain distance of another players tokens, both are revealed and the relevant models placed down? so you don't know which subs are going to be facing you until you're right on them - it encourages cautious play and tactical thinking.
You could even add a rule that once a sub fires or does certain things the opponent player may roll to detect the sub, allowing them to identify it prior to coming into range. Maybe you don't replace the token at that point, so the impetus is on each player to remember which token is an identified sub and which isn't.
you could have subs slipping in and out of detection as the game progresses - going from miniature to token after leaving range.