Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Captain Blood on May 25, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
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I’ve wanted to make and paint some 'True-to-Tolkien' orcs for ages.
Having had a sudden, inexplicable urge to kitbash some plastic over the past day or two, I finally got around to starting on some :)
The Oathmark goblins provide a good base - although I’m not convinced they’re really as Tolkien describes. (They do look a little like they’ve been influenced by that weird 1978 animated The Lord of the Rings movie though. Perhaps it's all the horned helmets).
As far as the descriptions and references in the books go (and there aren’t that many), Tolkien’s orcs are simply armed and equipped. It’s a mail shirt, a simple conical helm, large round shield, spear, bow, sword. Scimitars are specifically mentioned in a couple of places. That’s about it.
There are several learned threads here on LAF discussing all this, so I won’t go over it all again. Suffice to say orcs have been so hideously bastardised in gaming and pop culture, that most people’s idea of an orc is nothing like Tolkien’s original invention. His orcs certainly bear zero relation to the silly, semi-comic, bright green and gurning little baldies that have evolved from 40-odd years of ‘orks’ peddled by Games Workshop and its multitude of imitators.
Nor are the Peter Jackson / John Howe / Alan Lee versions much like what’s described in Tolkien. That gothic and extravagant hodgepodge of baroque plate armour pieces – distressed of course - synthesises a melting pot of historical arms and armour styles: From Byzantium to the Wars of the Roses via Samurai Japan, various S&M dungeons, and the Iron Masters of the Industrial Revolution. When it comes to orcs, the designs of professional Tolkien illustrators have much more to do with their own imaginations than anything described in Tolkien’s books.
Okay - rant over ;)
Hybridising the Oathmark Goblins with the new Victrix Saxons allows me to put simple nasal helms onto goblin heads - and to use Saxon bodies for some of the bigger, more upright, ‘man-orcs’, or ‘half-orcs’.
Those two sets form the basis of these assemblies, but there are also bits from around 15 other plastic sets - Fireforge, North Star, Perry and Gripping Beast. Plus a bit of Green Stuff here and there. I’ve mixed in a few of the Frostgrave cultist heads too - in Tolkien, there are a variety of orc types, some more manlike, some less. Some almost completely human - or human with a dash of orc.
(They certainly sound human. When you read the few segments in Tolkien where he puts actual dialogue into the mouths of orcs, they sound like people. Tolkien saw his orcs as debased, degenerate people, not wild animals. You only have to read the Shagrat and Gorbag episode to hear the voices of the all-too-human criminal underclass. Tolkien’s orcs are East End gangsters. They sound like the Krays. Harsh, vicious, violent scumbags - but cunning, clever, calculating, and with very human-like motivations. Not little green men. And not unthinking beasts).
Anyway, I digress… Again ::)
Here are the first dozen. I hope to get them painted fairly quickly. I was going to paint some with the red eye of Mordor, and some with the white hand of Isengard. But I recall Mordor actually has orcs of all shapes, sizes and varieties within its ranks, so will probably do all these as servants of Sauron. And then maybe a second unit for Saruman.
I haven't been completely doctrinaire about it, by the way - I have allowed a few horns and a couple of bits of plate to slip through... ;)
I've tried to stick mainly to more proportionate / realistic-sized weapons though.
The figure on the left in the first group is a homage to the unit of (identical) Minifigs orcs that I possessed around 1977 - that was several weeks' pocket money, but proved the envy of the school wargames club :D
The figure looked something like this anyway - armed to the teeth (although I seem to recall he was also wearing some kind of chainmail dungarees – very 70’s lol)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520210850-466692208.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520210851-466701095.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520210851-46671922.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520210851-4667214.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520210851-46673740.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520211056-46674440.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520211056-46675721.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520211056-466762315.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520211056-4667758.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520211056-466782279.jpeg)
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Well those are magnificent! :o
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They look really good. Can't wait to see them painted up.
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Those Richard are truly excellent :-* :-* :-*
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They look great 8)
Not sure about the Conan wannabe in the middle of the second batch though lol
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Very interesting preamble, Richard. Oddly enough, these half human Orcs would unsettle, maybe scare me , far more than any slime green , fantastic, cartoon version. I seem to recall, from the books , that unspeakable things were done in the dungeons of Mordor to produce a hybrid race of semi bestial human warriors.
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These are superb! Quite apart from the inventiveness of the kitbashing and the fact that they all 'read' really well as figures, the new helmets really improve the Oathmark heads by making them bigger.
All of these great, but I think the first three are my absolute favourites. Brilliant stuff!
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Following with great interest :)
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Great stuff, really inspiring and an excellent bit of conversion that looks like actual original miniatures (if that makes sense - it’s praise, just not very well described). How are you going to paint them?
BALM
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I always enjoy your hobby exploits Captain Blood! Looking forward to these when they're painted up. :)
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Beautiful figures, I have always preferred the Tolkien idea of orcs as well.
Also can't to see them painted.
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This isn't kit bashing. This is plastic magic. Really fantastic group overall. As others have said, definitely looking forward to seeing how you paint them.
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Delightful creations!
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Excellent kitbashing there. I also enjoyed the rant(s).
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Oh dear. You already make me feel inadequate in WW2 and historicals - do you have to go and get into fantasy too?
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Great work on these :-*
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Absolutely brilliant work. I really look forward to seeing the final, painted, results.
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Wow! :-* As always, an excellent idea, executed brilliantly! Really looking forward to seeing these chaps painted. I am very jealous that I lack both the originality to think of something such as these and, sadly, the kitbashing skills even if I did!
I am guessing you won't be going for the GW bright green skin colour??
LS :)
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You've hit the nail on the head re: the perversion of our friends the Orcs by the wargames industry over the last ahem, how many years??? :o [feels old for a moment]
It will be very interesting to see what fort of treatment you give the flesh etc. Will you use some kind of 'livery' for the different regiments/types? Or will the shields portray their standing?
Look forward to seeing what you do! :)
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Brilliant work Richard, and excellent idea really well-executed as usual
8)
They look great 8)
Not sure about the Conan wannabe in the middle of the second batch though lol
Don’t listen to James, I bet his mum gave him that helmet when he was little ;)
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Settles back into chair with a large tub of popcorn...seen the trailer and this is gonna be one amazing show....
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Brilliant conversion kit bashing, matching my favorite image of Tolkien’s Orcs. Thanks for inspiring some future Orcs of my own.
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You nailed it.
Those fit the bill perfectly.
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Just come back to this thread for the second time ths morning.
Fair warning - I'm knicking the idea of combining the Oathmark kits with Victrix Saxons. Might give Viking parts a go too. :-)
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Excellent! Can't wait to see the paint go on :-*
Choose your skin tone well, I'll probably be nicking it ;)
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Best bunch of orcs I’ve seen, top work- and ideas stolen
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/xKy2w6LehxxHa/giphy.gif)
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Superb stuff Richard 8) 8)
As ever you are the master of the kitbash
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Thanks chaps. These seem to have struck a bit of a chord :)
Choose your skin tone well, I'll probably be nicking it ;)
Yes, the skin tone is definitely the dilemma. (It definitely won't be 'Goblin Green' though ;))
Again, the information in Tolkien's works is sketchy, conflicting and often misquoted / misinterpreted. When he refers to 'black orcs' for instance, does he mean 'black' in the poetic sense (as in black-hearted, wicked) or does he literally mean they look like Africans? Or coal miners coming off shift? Probably it's 'black' in the first sense. I don't recall if he ever actually says they have 'black skin', and I don't want to get into the whole mid-C20th attitudes to ethnicity thing, which I think is a red herring as far as Tolkien is concerned.
The specific descriptive terms that have stuck in my mind (used several times IIRC), are 'swart' and 'sallow'. Which suggests a darkish complexion - but with an unhealthy pallor!
So I'll probably go for a more browny-yellowy hue than my customary 'sunny skin tone'.
Fair warning - I'm knicking the idea of combining the Oathmark kits with Victrix Saxons. Might give Viking parts a go too. :-)
lol Nick away Keith.
(Godammit - yours are going to be better than mine, I just know it! >:(:D)
Don’t listen to James, I bet his mum gave him that helmet when he was little ;)
I never listen to James, and I think you've got it right, Matt. That little orc's mama was a huge Conan fan ;)
Oh dear. You already make me feel inadequate in WW2 and historicals - do you have to go and get into fantasy too?
lol
Hey, don't you dare feel inadequate - not after that brilliant post-apoc greenhouse!
I'm not exactly new to fantasy... As mentioned, at school I had a Minifigs 'ME' army around 1976 when D&D was just a quirky new thing, and Games Workshop was barely a thing at all!
You must have missed my previous forays into fantasy on LAF too ;)
15mm Hyboria: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=104708.0
28mm Game of Thrones: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=62778.0
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Great work. I did something similar last year, but yours look far better executed than mine, where GS hides many sins! I look forward to seeing your finished orcs.
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I never listen to James
Don't I just know it ::)
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I love them!
Fantastic kit bashing.
But I also Like the GW style too.
Just all green skins, really :-*
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Yes, the skin tone is definitely the dilemma. (It definitely won't be 'Goblin Green' though ;))
Again, the information in Tolkien's works is sketchy, conflicting and often misquoted / misinterpreted. When he refers to 'black orcs' for instance, does he mean 'black' in the poetic sense (as in black-hearted, wicked) or does he literally mean they look like Africans? Or coal miners coming off shift? Probably it's 'black' in the first sense.
Yeah, there's the bit with Farmer Maggot going on about how he doesn't want to be talking with black men on his doorstep(!), referring to his unsettling encounter with the Black Rider. I think it's pretty definite Tolkein uses the term in an older way, to describe someone's general aspect (including attire) as opposed to the modern use of the word to denote ethnicity.
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Following with interest as from what I have seen, it promises to be great!
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Will follow this thread with eyes wide open :D
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Again, the information in Tolkien's works is sketchy, conflicting and often misquoted / misinterpreted. When he refers to 'black orcs' for instance, does he mean 'black' in the poetic sense (as in black-hearted, wicked) or does he literally mean they look like Africans? Or coal miners coming off shift? Probably it's 'black' in the first sense. I don't recall if he ever actually says they have 'black skin', and I don't want to get into the whole mid-C20th attitudes to ethnicity thing, which I think is a red herring as far as Tolkien is concerned.
Couldn't agree more with that last bit (and what Cubs said)! I liked your Krays comparison: the orcs are very much portrayed as (mid-C20th) British rather than 'foreign' when we see them close up: 'us' not 'them'. And in a letter, JRRT describes brutish British officers as "the Uruk-hai". I think it's significant that he uses the archaic 'swart' to describe his goblins while using the cognate 'swarthy' to describe Men.
For what it's worth, he does describe one orc (the small tracker in Mordor) as 'black-skinned', but the context strongly implies that this is unusual. The small orc is accompanying one of the 'black uruks', who, one can reasonably infer, doesn't have black skin (Tolkien more or less confirms this by describing orcs in general as 'sallow' - and uruks seem to make up the bulk of the orcs we 'see' in LotR). And when we first hear of the 'black uruks of Mordor', the first one we see is clad in black mail. So it's a fair takeaway that the 'black' might be a reference to livery and armour as much as anything (we know the Mordor and Isengard liveries are black).
One more thing: your kitbashes and conversions look great, inter alia, because the goblins have hair. It's become commonplace for gaming orcs to be bald, but Tolkien describes his goblins as 'hairy' at least twice. And in the literature of Tolkien's beloved Middle Ages, 'black' often referred to hair colour rather than skin colour.
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Oi!
Riccardo!
You bin stealin' ma dreams again?
I intend doing something 'similar' myself soon (hence why I have been after some old Citadel Half Orcs' as I have had a hankering for proper Tolkien Orcs for ages.
Not kitbashing at present, though, as I have a lovely bunch of old Asgard Orcs for the Mordor Mob and intend using the Citadel Half Orcs as Saruman's 'experiments' as they look more like wretched humans than their later Orcs.
Anyways, enough of my ranting....
Great work so far, though, as these chaps of yours look much more like a 'proper' Orc than the usual fantasy trope.
8) 8)
(Although, I must admit that the GW Mordor Orcs were closer to my vision of a Tolkein Orc than the Uruk Hai ever were).
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I never listen to James, and I think you've got it right, Matt. That little orc's mama was a huge Conan fan ;)
Actually I was thinking that maybe James had a helmet like it
;) lol
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Shush you.
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So those are freaking genius. Nailed the look - and spirit - of them. So simple and effective it seems obvious in hindsight.
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So is it deliberate do you think, that Peter Jackson had his goblins and orcs with cockney accents in the movies?
I always put that down to Hollywood always having the baddies with English accents, I never realised that Tolkien perhaps saw them that way?
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So is it deliberate do you think, that Peter Jackson had his goblins and orcs with cockney accents in the movies?
I always put that down to Hollywood always having the baddies with English accents, I never realised that Tolkien perhaps saw them that way?
They definitely use British idioms: Ugluk threatens Merry and Pippin with "bread and breakfast - more than you can stomach" in Isengard. And they say things like "I daresay". Shagrat and Snaga use "Garn!", which is a typically Cockney contraction of "Go on!", although Tolkien does say at some point that the Orcish expletives are bowdlerised versions of what they actually said. That's the only element of Cockney, though: I'd say that they speak with a mix of officer-class and working-class British English. People tend to conflate the dropped aitches of the trolls in The Hobbit with the orcish dialogue. I think the good Captain has it spot on with the Krays, though: sinister gangster talk of the "old times" of "good loot nice and handy".
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Always took that view that orcs were Tolkien’s vision of the corruption of man/elves through the brutishness of modern war, and borne through fire and blood etc etc
(Probably as I grew up reading Tolkien in parallel with Charleys war - and always thought they were both telling aspects of the same story)
Tolkeins descriptions of -wide mouths, fangs and long arms “ape” propaganda shots of the period
Reckon you’ve captured the posturing pretty well there!
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Looking forward to seeing more - it feels like another epic project coming on.
Interesting that you have shared photos of the minis primed - rather than in an earlier stage where the GS additions can be seen - and perhaps a little easier to see how you have adjusted parts.
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I really enjoy the orc pictures in this thread, thank you both.
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Tolkeins descriptions of -wide mouths, fangs and long arms “ape” propaganda shots of the period
Excellent point - and Ugluk and Grishnakh trade insults by calling each other apes!
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(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-250520211056-4667758.jpeg)
Those are a bit ruddy good, Richard, and I like your reasoning. I am about to paint my GW LotR Weta Workshop orcs and they are a bit all over the place, aren't they? Games Workshop have made a few interpretations themselves which are slightly better (like black uruks of Mordor) but I feel they mist central aspects of what an orc is. They are at the core perversion and mockeries ot all that is good, creative, inspired...
I think this bit from "The Hobbit" is a good starting point when you give them shape:
Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and badhearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty. Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light. It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far. They did not hate dwarves especially, no more than they hated everybody and everything, and particularly the orderly and prosperous; in some parts wicked dwarves had even made alliances with them.
From that one can infer that orcs are armed with simple, ugly but effective mass-produced weapons and armour, preferably made by slaves or plundered.
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Great work. I did something similar last year, but yours look far better executed than mine, where GS hides many sins! I look forward to seeing your finished orcs.
Wow. Those pole arms look just right.
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These look great.
Reminds me of what our Kev Dallimore said not long back, having a selection of Frostgrave and Oathmark kits allows you to be the closest to being a figure designer as you can get without learning to sculpt.
The horned helmets were not really LotR movie inspired, it was more Tim Kirk (http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Road-to-Minas-Tirithsmall.jpg) (https://cf.geekdo-images.com/opengraph/img/Y64LCZgwJoIgfKOhEnqBM4_YZxw=/fit-in/1200x630/pic613309.jpg)
Orc skin colour is an ancient debate of course. IMHO, when Tolkien says Black Skinned I think he means it. But I don't mean human black skin. Humans are really only shades of brown, (I appreciate a small number of Africans are so dark as to look close to black), I think JRRT's black skinned orcs are charcoal black. So it's black from a grey base, I think orcs should be various shades of grey, from light to black. Then to add confusion, when he describes some as sallow, that describes a yellowy skin.
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Orc skin colour is an ancient debate of course. IMHO, when Tolkien says Black Skinned I think he means it. But I don't mean human black skin.
I'd entirely agree with that - but I think it's worth pointing out that he only ever describes one orc as 'black-skinned' - and in a way that seems to contrast it with the other orcs around (the big uruks). And there are two things that suggest (very strongly, I think) that most are 'sallow'. First, the half-orcs (who are 'Men' rather than 'Orcs') are recognised as partially Orcish because of their sallow skin. Second, in one of his letters, Tolkien says that orcs in general are 'sallow'.
I reckon sallow from a grey base (or, for those like the small tracker, black from a grey base) is about as good a guess as any - with the greyness helping to imply an underground habitat and to underscore the unhealthy-looking connotations of 'sallow'.
Can't wait to see how the Captain's turn out!
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Thanks Nick, and all. Yes, the kitbashing potential expands exponentially with every new plastic kit release. I've pretty much lost track now, they're coming so thick and fast. But I've certainly used parts from the Frostgrave soldiers, cultists and barbarians in these orcs. Although, as I say, they're mainly based off your Oathmark goblins.
Great work. I did something similar last year, but yours look far better executed than mine, where GS hides many sins! I look forward to seeing your finished orcs.
Thanks Alan. Yes, I remember those very well. Excellent job, and I am following in your tracks.
Oi!
Riccardo!
You bin stealin' ma dreams again?
Never far away Pablo ;) lol
Although, I must admit that the GW Mordor Orcs were closer to my vision of a Tolkein Orc than the Uruk Hai ever were.
I agree. The Mordor orcs were the best of the Jackson / Weta / GW orc incarnations.
Interesting that you have shared photos of the minis primed - rather than in an earlier stage where the GS additions can be seen - and perhaps a little easier to see how you have adjusted parts.
Thanks Fred. They just look better with a unifying coat of primer rather than several different shades of grey plastic, slathered with poly cement ;)
The only Green Stuff I used was to add hair on a few of them, plus a couple of fur capes and the banner. And a tiny bit of filling here and there.
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Very well done, these. Will be watching with great interest.
The skin tone thing really is a limitless debate, isn't it. My suspicion is that descriptions like "black orcs" are impressionistic rather than strictly descriptive - the general resonance of black-hearted &c rather than necessarily a colouration thing. But Tolkien's descriptions are unfocussed enough to admit a good deal of painterly licence, I think. Worth noting that the only definitely black-skinned troops are the Southron contingent "out of Far Harad" in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. But they might arguably be distinctive only amongst the men, though again they are said to be "like half-trolls" rather than orcs.
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If there's anyone who could do this, my money would be on you. lol
I have quite a few of the (film version) Perry GW orcs. Some (the uruks) are quite too distinct for my liking, but the 'normal' Orcs are quite on par with the Oathmark offerings, in my opinion. I am not going to spam your thread with images of what I mean.
I joined a facebook group for wargaming in middle earth (explicitly not using the film vision) a few weeks ago, so I guess we are aligned for once. :D
Anyways, back padding and encouragement from Denmark, now slab on the paint already. ;D
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I joined a facebook group for wargaming in middle earth (explicitly not using the film vision) a few weeks ago, so I guess we are aligned for once. :D
Good group. Both GW's MESBG and independent Middle-Earth gaming have of a bit of a renaissance at the moment. I really like GWS Battle Companies even though they end up in some seriously unthematic scenarios now and then. (Hobbits vs. Easterlings, Rangers of the North and Mordor Uruks against Galadhrim and Gondorians... Those are not even to consider what-id scenarios).
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The specific descriptive terms that have stuck in my mind (used several times IIRC), are 'swart' and 'sallow'. Which suggests a darkish complexion - but with an unhealthy pallor!
So I'll probably go for a more browny-yellowy hue than my customary 'sunny skin tone'.
Works for me 8)
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Salut Captain. Lovely work.
I like old school Orc/Goblin threads and recent kitbashing of Tolkien style orcs appearing here. My skills are not in this league but I've been collecting sprues to have a go. There are quite a few kit bashed conversions on the Wargaming Middle Earth FB group. Jake Hallam has done some nice McBride inspired ones. Alan's up thread are rather good too.
There seems to be a small renaissance in the idea of creating Tolkien races, and particularly Orcs, from the books. Probably a natural reaction as the films recede into history but I think credit is due to Nick for getting the Oathmark sets out. Perhaps also a hat tip to Hobgoblin for his Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=86688.0) thread a few years back, which I suspect to have acted as something of a catylst.
Love the Conan inspired helmet. With a touch of inspiration from the Ralph Bakshi Film perhaps? Great stuff all. :)
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Never noticed this thread before Richard?
Not your usual flouncy shirts and feathered hats
Looking forward to seeing the paint jobs
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Thanks all :)
Number 1 is painted. I shall do these lads one at a time I think, and take my time with them...
I had to start with this one - the 1976 Minifigs ME range uruk tribute act ;)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-060620110206-468201073.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-060620110206-468222449.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-060620110207-468241959.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-060620110206-468231124.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-060620110207-468251344.jpeg)
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Ooooh!
He is a bit good.
:-* :-*
Plenty of dimension to him too.
One of the advantages of plastic kitbashing; not being constrained by the necessity of lifting out of a mould.
:) 8)
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Nice. I like the shield in particular 8)
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Plenty of dimension to him too.
One of the advantages of plastic kitbashing; not being constrained by the necessity of lifting out of a mould
This exactly.
Top work Richard
8)
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He looks great!
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He looks just great Richard ,the term "loaded for bear" springs to mind :)
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Excellent! That flesh works well 8)
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Excellent work! He looks fantastic - and that combination of gear is just spot on: bow, spear and 'darts', as well as heavy mail. Tolkien's uruks seem to occupy a military slot that didn't frequently occur in history (at least in the West): the bow-armed heavy infantryman. The build for this fellow fulfils that perfectly.
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Niiiice.
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Brilliant. The orc is full of character. The skin colour is excellent too
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I really have to jon the fan club again. Your painting is great with not so bright colors also.
And the kitbashing is once again inspiring. The somewhat too bendy legs of that medieval warrior fit well into an orcs desription and the use you made of that celtic shield is just "in the right place ".
Please keep the inspiraton coming.
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Very nice Richard :-* :-* :-*
How many of these are planned?
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Thanks gents :)
Very nice Richard :-* :-* :-*
How many of these are planned?
Well I’ve built a dozen so far. I’ll see how I get on with painting them, and then I might do a dozen more. And then maybe a few Gondorians... and some Rohirrim... just for small skirmishes, you know ;)
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Thanks gents :)
Well I’ve built a dozen so far. I’ll see how I get on with painting them, and then I might do a dozen more. And then maybe a few Gondorians... and some Rohirrim... just for small skirmishes, you know ;)
....and so it begins
:D
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(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-060620110206-468231124.jpeg)
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Very, very nice.
The longbow is an interesting details. As I am sure many Tolien-fans know, longbows of yew, was, for orcs, an atypical attribute of The uruk-hai under Sarumans sway.
As I am about to paint ten uruk-hai archers I recently had a bit of a think about this. Orcs make things badly, without art and precision. The making of longbows is an advanced craft. One have to assume that Saruman morally corrupt bowyers in his employ (which is in a general way alluded to).
Yes, it is with this kind of musings I go about my days.
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I seem to recall Tolkien saying some Orcs were highly skilled craftsmen, but they made no beautiful things. They delighted in instruments of destruction or torment.
So maybe Uruks could come up with functioning, but ugly longbows.
But he also said Orc-made things were crude compared to those of Elves and Men, so you may well be right (though something can be both crude and effective, I suppose).
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Orcs make things badly, without art and precision.
Not sure if that's quite right (as Plynkes has noted above):
Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones. … Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well or get others to make to their design ... It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them.
And they do engage in art:
'It was an orc-weapon,' he said, holding it gingerly, and looking with disgust at the carved handle: it had been shaped like a hideous head with squinting eyes and leering mouth.
As for the Isengarders' bows, Aragorn does say that those Orcs' grear is more like that of Men. But in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen, Tolkien indicates that the Isengarder Orcs were more technologically advanced than the Dunlendings: specifically, the only mail made in Isengard was made by the Orcs for their own uses.
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Only just seen this - late to the party! Fine work and am enjoying the orc debate.
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I agree with James Morris! Great modelling and painting, and a a discussion that although I am unable to contribute to, I am am very interested in following! Looking forward to more!
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Beautiful Richard , and inspiring. :-*
And on the question of long bows; all bows that are of one piece construction roughly corresponding to the height of the user are self/ long bows. Therefore a Hobbit using a bow ,perhaps one piece of Elm would be using a long bow ,it is semantic,rather than a technological description. Of course Yew is one of the best woods for making such bows, combined with training could be devastating. Most of Western Europe used long bows as opposed to composite bows very early on,certainly as early as the Bronze Age if not before.
So Orcs with long bows? Without a doubt, certainly much more likely than composite bows. Phew! ;D
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Not sure if that's quite right (as Plynkes has noted above):
And they do engage in art:
As for the Isengarders' bows, Aragorn does say that those Orcs' grear is more like that of Men. But in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen, Tolkien indicates that the Isengarder Orcs were more technologically advanced than the Dunlendings: specifically, the only mail made in Isengard was made by the Orcs for their own uses.
Funny, I used exactly that quote from 'The Hobbit' to form my opinion, but I did not exactly express it right.
The whole point with orcs, which I think I could find textual reference to, is that they are perverted as a mockery of elves and humans. They also do everything as a perversion of what (we consider) is beautiful or artful. They take whatever exist, just like Morgoth, and make crude copies or ill-willed pastiches of it. They may be clever while doing it, but it is all to casue damage to the original, creative idea. The idea that an orc should take real pride in his/her creative work is anathema to me, whatever 'creativity' they can muster comes from the ill will and destruction they can cause with it. We do these days claim that everything and anything is art, but in a more traditional sense, as in creating something original, beautiful, harmonious or carrying profound meaning, orcs are not artful.
I thought the longbow was a good example how orcs 'get others to make to their design' because I know the making of longbows is a craft which requires art, precision and care (also to shoot, but I suppose that is a good example on just how well disciplined Saruman's uruk-hai were). Therefore, in my mind, I find it likely that Saruman had some skilled human bowyers in his employ. Honestly, *someone* had to be smoking the Longbottom leaf and eating the salted pork Merry and Pippin found in the chapter "Floatsam and Jetsam". Sure, tobacco and processed red meat is the pinnacle of evil these days, but I am purty sure Tolkien did not have orcs in mind consuming it back in his day.
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Funny, I used exactly that quote from 'The Hobbit' to form my opinion, but I did not exactly express it right.
The whole point with orcs, which I think I could find textual reference to, is that they are perverted as a mockery of elves and humans. They also do everything as a perversion of what (we consider) is beautiful or artful. They take whatever exist, just like Morgoth, and make crude copies or ill-willed pastiches of it. They may be clever while doing it, but it is all to casue damage to the original, creative idea. The idea that an orc should take real pride in his/her creative work is anathema to me, whatever 'creativity' they can muster comes from the ill will and destruction they can cause with it. We do these days claim that everything and anything is art, but in a more traditional sense, as in creating something original, beautiful, harmonious or carrying profound meaning, orcs are not artful.
Right - I see what you mean: creative, yes, but only in a destructive or mocking way (as when they replace the head of the king's statue).
I thought the longbow was a good example how orcs 'get others to make to their design' because I know the making of longbows is a craft which requires art, precision and care (also to shoot, but I suppose that is a good example on just how well disciplined Saruman's uruk-hai were). Therefore, in my mind, I find it likely that Saruman had some skilled human bowyers in his employ. Honestly, *someone* had to be smoking the Longbottom leaf and eating the salted pork Merry and Pippin found in the chapter "Floatsam and Jetsam". Sure, tobacco and processed red meat is the pinnacle of evil these days, but I am purty sure Tolkien did not have orcs in mind consuming it back in his day.
Good point about the supplies! As far as the bows go, I wonder. One of the orcs in Mordor has a bow "of horn" - so presumably a sophisticated composite bow. I'd have though that those need even more precision and care to make than a longbow (arguable either way, I suppose, but both are complex processes).
I'd guess that JRRT's intention was just to show that there was something unusually Mannish about these orcs, as that's the thread that's pursued all the way through Helm's Deep, Flotsam and Jetsam and The Scouring of the Shire: there are Mannish orcs (the Uruk-hai) and Orcish men (the half-orcs). But who knows (and that's before we get into the 'death of the author' and all that!)?
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Nice work.
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Those are quite lovely in an orcish sort of way.
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Lovely to see that boardgame cover - great game and a few fond memories there ...
the capt.'s kitbashes are, of course, superb. Absolutely top-notch. Very admiring and envious of such vision and skill - all I can do to put plastic kit figures together 'normally'.
But one reason I haven't been checking this thread 'till now is an anticipation of much debate of what is 'correct' etc for the depiction of orcs, and the 'reality' of their culture, ffs.
Really, I wouldn't go there. Make 'em green, pink or whatever you like, and go some way in avoiding the can of worms that is Tolkien's views on matters race and culture.
Having read up on this again recently (as a devotee of the books of old), and, for example, happening upon his written comments regarding 'dwarves' and human models for them... no, really ... don't go there.
Make it as fantastical as you like, and enjoy his setting in those very elastic terms, as far as I'm concerned.
anyway, apologies for getting all 'serious' on the fantasy board - and the kitbashed figures are indeed brilliant; the main thing.
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Hehe, I agree Bloggard. Both Tolkien and Song of Ice and Fire threads always do tend to have a lot of "No, no, no, no, no! They're doing it wrong! I've read the books and my interpretation is correct" type of comments. I should know, I do it myself. This very week I have been painting a LOTR figure, and constantly muttering and complaining to myself about its depiction in the movies, even though it is a very nice figure. :)
But as long as it is kept civil and friendly, it can be an interesting diversion, and does no real harm.
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Lovely to see that boardgame cover - great game and a few fond memories there ...
the capt.'s kitbashes are, of course, superb. Absolutely top-notch. Very admiring and envious of such vision and skill - all I can do to put plastic kit figures together 'normally'.
But one reason I haven't been checking this thread 'till now is an anticipation of much debate of what is 'correct' etc for the depiction of orcs, and the 'reality' of their culture, ffs.
Really, I wouldn't go there. Make 'em green, pink or whatever you like, and go some way in avoiding the can of worms that is Tolkien's views on matters race and culture.
Having read up on this again recently (as a devotee of the books of old), and, for example, happening upon his written comments regarding 'dwarves' and human models for them... no, really ... don't go there.
Make it as fantastical as you like, and enjoy his setting in those very elastic terms, as far as I'm concerned.
anyway, apologies for getting all 'serious' on the fantasy board - and the kitbashed figures are indeed brilliant; the main thing.
To me it is not a can of worms. I find it a rather fruitful discussion which have an impact on how I paint my miniatures.
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Very well done. Your painting really brings out the character. I might have to re-visit mine and tidy them up a bit.
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I somehow missed the beginning of this thread, but as I am also on a Middle-Earth spree (atm shortly interrupted by trying to get a pirate gang ready for the end of the month), trying to get some armies for Oathmark tuned right, and planning to mix some Oathmark Goblins in with my GW Orcs, I have to keep an eye on this! :)
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Orc number 2 has a coat of paint...
He's made from an Oathmark goblin body and face, but with a Victrix Saxon nasal helm on top. The arms are from the Oathmark goblin set, but with a Perry HYW falchion hand surgically attached. The shield is a gripping Beast Viking/Saxon round shield. Green stuff fur cape.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-160620154151-46954833.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-160620154152-469572130.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-160620154152-469561684.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-160620154152-469551975.jpeg)
And here he is, with orc no. 1
Not quite Shagrat and Gorbag, but close relatives... ;)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/46/577-160620154152-4695895.jpeg)
I'm picking away at these between other projects...
Only ten more to go ;)
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Excellent - that helmet works really well. And great colours as ever!
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Great kitbashing as well as painting :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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That is beautiful, the fur Cape and paint job really takes the miniature to a new level!
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Lovely to see that boardgame cover - great game and a few fond memories there ...
the capt.'s kitbashes are, of course, superb. Absolutely top-notch. Very admiring and envious of such vision and skill - all I can do to put plastic kit figures together 'normally'.
But one reason I haven't been checking this thread 'till now is an anticipation of much debate of what is 'correct' etc for the depiction of orcs, and the 'reality' of their culture, ffs.
Really, I wouldn't go there. Make 'em green, pink or whatever you like, and go some way in avoiding the can of worms that is Tolkien's views on matters race and culture.
Having read up on this again recently (as a devotee of the books of old), and, for example, happening upon his written comments regarding 'dwarves' and human models for them... no, really ... don't go there.
Make it as fantastical as you like, and enjoy his setting in those very elastic terms, as far as I'm concerned.
anyway, apologies for getting all 'serious' on the fantasy board - and the kitbashed figures are indeed brilliant; the main thing.
For those of us who want to play games set in Middle Earth and not the Warhammer Olde Worlde it is a VERY important discussion.
There things in the books and things NOT in the books and in that zone there is a lot if space for creativity.
So no green cartoon orcs in Middle Earth.
Thank you.
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Shagbag and Gorrat?
:D
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- insert compliment that would seem cliche or hyperbolic but is actually dead on -
Also the those yellow crescents beside the boss are exactly what some of my '79 RP orcs need. I must now go back and add those, so thanks for that.
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Excellent, even better than the first :-*
Can I see a bit of a green tint creeping into the flesh or is it a trick of the light?
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Top notch :-* :-* :-*
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Thanks :)
Can I see a bit of a green tint creeping into the flesh or is it a trick of the light?
Absolutely not.
Sallow is the word...
;)
lol
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- insert compliment that would seem cliche or hyperbolic but is actually dead on -
Wot 'e said... :D
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Well done Captain. Very nice palette.
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Great work, really like the tones and you’ve brought it to life.
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What a pair of beauties!
The Orc equivalent to 'Wham', I reckon.
:-* :-*
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Thanks all :)
The Orc equivalent to 'Wham', I reckon.
:-* :-*
lol
'Wake me up before you go-go (destroying the world of men)' ;)
As long as it's not Pepsi & Shirlie...
:D
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Brilliant work. If you don't mind me saying they orcs to me temind me of the Alan Lee illustations out of the Lord of the Rings hefty tome.
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outstanding work from start to finish. the conversion and paintjob puts a number of commercially available options (default) to shame.
just the stalwart heroes middle-earth needs to defeat debased elven and hobbit abominations! :-*
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Thanks all :)
Brilliant work. If you don't mind me saying they orcs to me temind me of the Alan Lee illustations out of the Lord of the Rings hefty tome.
I don't mind at all - say what you like :)
Although Alan Lee also worked on the Peter Jackson LOTR movies, I think it was rival Tolkien illustrator extraordinaire, John Howe, who gained the upper hand in production design, and was probably responsible for the excessively gothic/rococo look of some of the orc plate armour and weaponry... Howe brought a lot of his own highly fertile imagination to his myriad visualisations of Tolkien's world. Not sure he ever paid much attention to what is actually described in the books ::)
Anyway...
Orc Number Three:
This one is really a straight build from the Oathmark Goblin set, but with the addition of a Victrix Saxon helmet and kite shield - plus a raggedly Green Stuff banner.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160457-470011694.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160458-47002594.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160458-47003860.jpeg)
Now we are three...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160458-47004201.jpeg)
Plodding steadily on through these amongst other projects... Will have a whole unit before you know it ;)
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Lush 8)
Modified for talking rubbish lol
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That's a splendid addition!
Those helmets really take the Oathmark figures up a notch. And glorious painting as ever!
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Excellent! I'm sold on that flesh colour now 8)
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Excellent! I'm sold on that flesh colour now 8)
lol
It's actually dead simple, in case anyone wants to try it. Three colours plus a slight wash.
Base coat, 50:50 Vallejo Flat Earth and Dark Flesh
Wash with a VERY thinned burnt umber (oil) - but I guess Army Painter 'soft tone' ink/wash would be much the same. Or whatever the GW equivalent is these days. Maybe an Agrax/Seraphim mix?
Mid coat - as base coat, but with Vallejo Pale Sand added to taste
Topmost highlights - almost pure Vallejo Pale Sand, with a whisker of the basecoat mix in it.
:)
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angus mcbride is my go-to middle-earth guy, credit to merp and i.c.e. … passed away too soon, heart attack it was, i believe. :'(
the olog rogrog vs man-beast:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/9f/bf/a39fbfa73b4d7185acdb4c34af3bf969.jpg)
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Good to see you getting 'down and dirty' with the shabby distressed effects! Another great addition.
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Thanks all :)
I don't mind at all - say what you like :)
Although Alan Lee also worked on the Peter Jackson LOTR movies, I think it was rival Tolkien illustrator extraordinaire, John Howe, who gained the upper hand in production design, and was probably responsible for the excessively gothic/rococo look of some of the orc plate armour and weaponry... Howe brought a lot of his own highly fertile imagination to his myriad visualisations of Tolkien's world. Not sure he ever paid much attention to what is actually described in the books ::)
Anyway...
Orc Number Three:
This one is really a straight build from the Oathmark Goblin set, but with the addition of a Victrix Saxon helmet and kite shield - plus a raggedly Green Stuff banner.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160457-470011694.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160458-47002594.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160458-47003860.jpeg)
Now we are three...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/577-200620160458-47004201.jpeg)
Plodding steadily on through these amongst other projects... Will have a whole unit before you know it ;)
ooo-er! very nice indeed.
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angus mcbride is my go-to middle-earth guy, credit to merp and i.c.e. … passed away too soon, heart attack it was, i believe. :'(
the olog rogrog vs man-beast:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/9f/bf/a39fbfa73b4d7185acdb4c34af3bf969.jpg)
I always thought there is quite a bit of homo-erotica going on in that image, bless'm.
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Absolutely inspirational thread! Some of the best goblins I’ve ever seen 😃👍
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Hehe, Hammers sees homo-eroticism wherever he looks! I think if you are looking to find something, you will find it! ;)
Mcbride is my go-to guy too, but for Zulus. Again, burly lads not wearing an awful lot. You should check 'em out, H, my dear.
Richard, these are phenomenal. For some reason I am especially drawn to the coat on the standard bearer guy. It's the business!
Edited for my inability to spell 'Mcbride.'
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Fantastic conversions and equally skillful painting on these!
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They look great, and about as good a visualisation of Tolkien-style Orcs as I can think of; I totally agree with your observations about how Tolkien wrote and thought about orcs.
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Captain Blood,
Man you have really done some serious research to create those minis. Beautiful work. I have to ask though, pulling pieces from so many different places, what did each figure actually cost you?
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Sorry I just found this thread, Richard, Fantastic work as usual.
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Thank you chaps. Must crack on with the next one! :)
I have to ask though, pulling pieces from so many different places, what did each figure actually cost you?
Honestly, very little. I bought two frames of the Oathmark goblins off eBay. They cost a few pounds. That was the only thing I bought specifically for this. Everything else I had already. I have a pile of about 30 assorted plastic figure kits, and I just draw on those for components as and when I need them. The cost of those kits is sunk and accounted for long ago as far as I’m concerned. Some of them are 10+ years old and almost exhausted, but still yield useful bits for kitbashing. Others, like the recent Victrix Saxons, I will use across many other projects over time. It’s a long term investment in endlessly flexible and long lasting resources ;)
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Another great addition, Riccardo!
:-* :-*
Pepsi looks great in her new jacket, very classy!
:-* :-*
Can't wait to see what you do with Shirley!
;D ;D
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Thank you chaps. Must crack on with the next one! :)
Honestly, very little. I bought two frames of the Oathmark goblins off eBay. They cost a few pounds. That was the only thing I bought specifically for this. Everything else I had already. I have a pile of about 30 assorted plastic figure kits, and I just draw on those for components as and when I need them. The cost of those kits is sunk and accounted for long ago as far as I’m concerned. Some of them are 10+ years old and almost exhausted, but still yield useful bits for kitbashing. Others, like the recent Victrix Saxons, I will use across many other projects over time. It’s a long term investment in endlessly flexible and long lasting resources ;)
Thrifty, that.
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Thrifty, that.
lol
Thrifty is my middle name ;)
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Excellent. :o the whole thing.
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Lovely! I'm working on some Oathmark goblins at the moment, so what a treat to find this thread too! It's a lovely kit and looks especially good here.
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Thanks Rory. I am somewhat diverted by the ECW at present, but when that starts to pall, I shall get back onto a couple more orcs ;)
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And here's me thinking I'd been very clever putting Perry arms on mine....
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Those orcs are beautiful! I love all your work, but these to me look like your best work yet. They are simply perfection.
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Interesting reading and great conversions.
I know it is a bit boring from a modelling point of view, but I just feel Tolkien orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, would be quite uniform in appearance. They were bred to be soldiers after all and so were most likely issued with standardised mass produced equipment and weapons. They were regular troops. The account of the Battle of Pelennor Fields refers to them operating in battalions. I don’t know where this idea of wild looking tribal irregulars comes from. It may be more applicable to the goblins of the Hobbit but not the later orcs who seem more like professionals as their only purpose was to fight for the Dark Lord.
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I know it is a bit boring from a modelling point of view, but I just feel Tolkien orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, would be quite uniform in appearance. They were bred to be soldiers after all and so were most likely issued with standardised mass produced equipment and weapons.
I'm not sure that's quite right - or at least, I don't think that there's any evidence in the text of their gear being hugely standardised. The Isengarders do seem to have some regularity: helmets with the S-rune, shields with the White Hand, long bows and short swords. But they also had axes, spears and darts - and irregularities of armour, such as the one with an iron collar that notched Gimli's axe. We also know that they made their own gear (it's mentioned in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen), so I don't see why we'd expect any less variety than from other goblin smiths (or smiths elsewhere in the Early Medieval milieu of Middle Earth). Mass production doesn't seem to come into it.
They were regular troops. The account of the Battle of Pelennor Fields refers to them operating in battalions. I don’t know where this idea of wild looking tribal irregulars comes from. It may be more applicable to the goblins of the Hobbit but not the later orcs who seem more like professionals as their only purpose was to fight for the Dark Lord.
Well, we know that the troops of Mordor had quite a bit of variety in their gear. Grishnakh has a knife with a hilt carved with a hideous face. The gear at Cirith Ungol seems quite varied - and the Morgul stuff varied in size and quality from the Tower gear. As well as scimitars and knives, the Mordor orcs used "short stabbing-swords" and short spears with broad heads, as well as bows of horn. And they seem to have dressed in various ways too: head-to-foot mail; hairy breeches; ring-mail shirts; ragged brown; black cloaks; and leather tunics.
Also, the uruks Shagrat and Gorbag don't seem terribly professional as at one stage they're plotting to run off and become brigands "like old times"!
All of that fits pretty well with the good Captain's interpretations, I think!
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I just feel Tolkien orcs, especially the Uruk-Hai, would be quite uniform in appearance. They were bred to be soldiers after all and so were most likely issued with standardised mass produced equipment and weapons. They were regular troops. The account of the Battle of Pelennor Fields refers to them operating in battalions.
The great thing about any Fantasy background is that it is open to interpretation :)
Personally I think the references to battalions isn’t a literal one, and owes more to Tolkien’s experience in the Great War...battalion-sized units was perhaps a way of conveying the size of the groupings rather than suggesting a regimented structure?
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The great thing about any Fantasy background is that it is open to interpretation :)
Definitely! And it's true, too, that interpretations that diverge quite a bit from what's actually in the text can be really good in their own right.
Personally I think the references to battalions isn’t a literal one, and owes more to Tolkien’s experience in the Great War...battalion-sized units was perhaps a way of conveying the size of the groupings rather than suggesting a regimented structure?
I'm sure that's part of it; there is the "name and number" business, though, and the uruk whip-wielder knowing at a glance where the Cirith Ungol lot were meant to be. I think there's a bit of evidence for orcs being both rag-tag, ill-disciplined warriors and soldiers in a fairly organised military structure at the same time. I suspect that Tolkien's war experiences played into that too.
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I'm not sure that's quite right - or at least, I don't think that there's any evidence in the text of their gear being hugely standardised. The Isengarders do seem to have some regularity: helmets with the S-rune, shields with the White Hand, long bows and short swords. But they also had axes, spears and darts - and irregularities of armour, such as the one with an iron collar that notched Gimli's axe. We also know that they made their own gear (it's mentioned in The Battle of the Fords of the Isen), so I don't see why we'd expect any less variety than from other goblin smiths (or smiths elsewhere in the Early Medieval milieu of Middle Earth). Mass production doesn't seem to come into it.
The reference in The Battle of the Fords of Isen "In Isenguard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses". This doesn't mean this mail wasn't made by orc smiths on a massed produced standardised basis. Surely this would to be the most efficient way to equip a large army being masterminded by Saruman.
When I say standardised, I didn’t mean identical. There would have been some variation between smithies. Axes and spears would be used according to preference. I didn’t mean they would all have just swords for example. The iron collar might have been a badge of rank
Well, we know that the troops of Mordor had quite a bit of variety in their gear. Grishnakh has a knife with a hilt carved with a hideous face. The gear at Cirith Ungol seems quite varied - and the Morgul stuff varied in size and quality from the Tower gear. As well as scimitars and knives, the Mordor orcs used "short stabbing-swords" and short spears with broad heads, as well as bows of horn. And they seem to have dressed in various ways too: head-to-foot mail; hairy breeches; ring-mail shirts; ragged brown; black cloaks; and leather tunics.
Also, the uruks Shagrat and Gorbag don't seem terribly professional as at one stage they're plotting to run off and become brigands "like old times"!
All of that fits pretty well with the good Captain's interpretations, I think!
As my comments above really. Just to add though, as the army of Mordor was so vast there would likely be variations across the whole force but no so much in specific units.
When I say professional, I meant they were full time soldiers. Even professional soldiers are known to mutiny, desert and behave without discipline when circumstances dictate.
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Great work as usual, Captain. Will these bad boys be fighting your existing medieval figures, or will you be doing True-to-Tolkein elves, dwarves, and/or men?
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Great work as usual, Captain. Will these bad boys be fighting your existing medieval figures, or will you be doing True-to-Tolkein elves, dwarves, and/or men?
I quite fancy doing some Gondorians once the Victrix Norman set comes out :)
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Personally I think the references to battalions isn’t a literal one, and owes more to Tolkien’s experience in the Great War...battalion-sized units was perhaps a way of conveying the size of the groupings rather than suggesting a regimented structure?
Possibly. However is responding to Hobgoblin, I re-read some of The Battle of the Fords of Isen account and a battalion of Uruks is referred to more than once which seems to imply an organised military structure? He normally refers to orcs as companies or hosts when in large forces.
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The reference in The Battle of the Fords of Isen "In Isenguard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses". This doesn't mean this mail wasn't made by orc smiths on a massed produced standardised basis. Surely this would to be the most efficient way to equip a large army being masterminded by Saruman.
When I say standardised, I didn’t mean identical. There would have been some variation between smithies. Axes and spears would be used according to preference. I didn’t mean they would all have just swords for example. The iron collar might have been a badge of rank
As my comments above really. Just to add though, as the army of Mordor was so vast there would likely be variations across the whole force but no so much in specific units.
When I say professional, I meant they were full time soldiers. Even professional soldiers are known to mutiny, desert and behave without discipline when circumstances dictate.
I am of similar thought as you, general. To arm the massed ranks orcs, both Mordor and Isengard would supply their troops fairly standardised and cheap equipment. If they were individualised it would be because of a need to repair, decorate or improve them.
On top of that, Tolkien seem to have attributed to Saruman the vice of industrialisation in all its most negative aspects. The soldiery are more specialised (sapper, pikemen, light rangers, shield breakers). The Isengarders seem less chaotic, more disciplined and instilled with a corps-de-espirit.
Mordor seems to have relied more on numbers. Saruman aimed to do more with less, so to speak.
I think the PJ trilogy captures this quite well.
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[q]The soldiery are more specialised (sapper, pikemen, light rangers, shield breakers). The Isengarders seem less chaotic, more disciplined and instilled with a corps-de-espirit.[/q]
That's more the movie. There's just as many examples of specialisation in the Mordor forces in the books. The scout and the larger fighting orc for example.
But the essence is correct; Saruman has been seduced by the allure of industrialisation and his mind is full of wheels now.
Mass produced before factories still allowed a lot of variation. You don't have machines and die stamping churning out 1000s of identical pieces. Everything is still hand made, just in huge quantities. You might get some 'assembly line' going with. Craftsman A does one job over and over, sending the items to the next craftsman who does the next job and so on until each item is finished.
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Nothing like a good orc debate to avert the miseries of work for a while! :D
I am of similar thought as you, general. To arm the massed ranks orcs, both Mordor and Isengard would supply their troops fairly standardised and cheap equipment. If they were individualised it would be because of a need to repair, decorate or improve them.
Two things here, though. First, the equipment of Mordor orcs that we actually see doesn't seem to be "standard issue". Take the orcish weapons we see in most detail: the knives. We see the knives of three Mordor orcs up close. One is black with a "jagged" and "saw-edged" blade; another has a hideously ornate handle carved with a face; yet another has a long red blade. That doesn't suggest 'standard-issue' weapons, but something more like the direction that illustrators and miniature designers have tended to take (Grishnakh's knife always seems very Kev Adams to me!).
Second, the milieu setting is (effectively) early medieval. Yes, we get anachronisms now and then, and yes, the orcs seem to be a bit more advanced than humans when it comes to making nasty things. But I don't think that there's anything to indicate that orcs have some sort of mass-production technique for mail, scimitars, knives and conical helms. The mention of Isengard's "smithies" and "armouries" imply lots and lots of workshops, presumably with lots and lots of orcs (or slaves) working in them. But within those smithies, wouldn't the gear just be made in the same way as in the smithies of the real Dark Ages - with all the variation that that implies? Those knives imply craftsmanship (of a horrid kind) rather than mass production.
If anything, there's a strong argument for orcish equipment being much more varied than what we see among Men. The very fact that Frodo and Sam are able to pass themselves off as orcs while wearing orcish gear in a makeshift fashion points to that.
On top of that, Tolkien seem to have attributed to Saruman the vice of industrialisation in all its most negative aspects. The soldiery are more specialised (sapper, pikemen, light rangers, shield breakers). The Isengarders seem less chaotic, more disciplined and instilled with a corps-de-espirit.
They do seem to pride themselves on their discipline and training, but are they really that specialised? We don't hear about dedicated sappers, merely that "the Orcs have brought a blasting-fire", and I don't recall any light rangers: the Isengard orcs all seem to be fast-moving, undersized, bow-armed heavy infantry (apart from those on wolves).
The main divisions of Saruman's army seem to be orcs (as above); Dunlendings (unarmoured, some with pikes/spears, some on horses); and half-orcs (man-sized and thus harder-hitting heavy infantry). So, three or four types of infantry and two types of cavalry, with 'species' the main distinguishing factor.
Sauron's forces include orcs big and small (we don't see the latter in the Isengard armies - though, to be fair, the small ones that Sam and Frodo join don't seem to be the mainstay of Sauron's armies but rather some rearguard being thrown in to action as he empties Mordor); horsemen and footmen from Morgul; Haradrim on foot and horse, and the men of Far Harad; Mumakil; trolls; Variags; and Easterlings with axes.
Oddly enough, Sauron doesn't seem to use wolfriders (Tolkien wonders at one point in his drafts whether they are a Sarumanic innovation), but overall, his forces are much more varied than Saruman's. There's certainly more scope for a more varied wargame force with Mordor, I'd have thought.
armchair general - I suppose my point is just that we see enough variation in orcish gear in the text for Captain Blood's take to ring true. To the variation in equipment in the text, I'd add the use of words like "chief" and "chieftain" in the description of Mordor orcs (in Moria and at the Pelennor), which suggest a tribal aspect.
All that said, Tolkien does seem to portray the orcs in a couple of parallel ways. On the one hand, they're demonic Dark Age-type warriors, with "tribes", "chieftains" and "chiefs", a variety of savage-looking weaponry and perhaps a faint, mythologised echo of the Huns (including the connection with wolves). On the other, they're modern-sounding soldiers (specifically British-sounding, which ties in with Tolkien's letter to his son when the latter was in the forces: "a Hobbit amongst the Uruk-hai") with captains, battalions and "name and number".
So there's plenty of room for both a "warrior" and a "soldier" interpretation.
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Nothing like a good orc debate to avert the miseries of work for a while! :D
Two things here, though. First, the equipment of Mordor orcs that we actually see doesn't seem to be "standard issue". Take the orcish weapons we see in most detail: the knives. We see the knives of three Mordor orcs up close. One is black with a "jagged" and "saw-edged" blade; another has a hideously ornate handle carved with a face; yet another has a long red blade. That doesn't suggest 'standard-issue' weapons, but something more like the direction that illustrators and miniature designers have tended to take (Grishnakh's knife always seems very Kev Adams to me!).
Possibly although "officers" often procure their own equipment for better quality and to distinguish themselves from the rank and file
Second, the milieu setting is (effectively) early medieval. Yes, we get anachronisms now and then, and yes, the orcs seem to be a bit more advanced than humans when it comes to making nasty things. But I don't think that there's anything to indicate that orcs have some sort of mass-production technique for mail, scimitars, knives and conical helms. The mention of Isengard's "smithies" and "armouries" imply lots and lots of workshops, presumably with lots and lots of orcs (or slaves) working in them. But within those smithies, wouldn't the gear just be made in the same way as in the smithies of the real Dark Ages - with all the variation that that implies? Those knives imply craftsmanship (of a horrid kind) rather than mass production.
In the early medieval setting, there is the Byzantium Empire for example who were known to have large scale armoury production facilities producing standardised equipment. Gondor has often been compared to Byzantium. The descriptions of the regular troops of Gondor would indicate they were issued with standard kit, so why not Isenguard and Mordor?
armchair general - I suppose my point is just that we see enough variation in orcish gear in the text for Captain Blood's take to ring true. To the variation in equipment in the text, I'd add the use of words like "chief" and "chieftain" in the description of Mordor orcs (in Moria and at the Pelennor), which suggest a tribal aspect.
All that said, Tolkien does seem to portray the orcs in a couple of parallel ways. On the one hand, they're demonic Dark Age-type warriors, with "tribes", "chieftains" and "chiefs", a variety of savage-looking weaponry and perhaps a faint, mythologised echo of the Huns (including the connection with wolves). On the other, they're modern-sounding soldiers (specifically British-sounding, which ties in with Tolkien's letter to his son when the latter was in the forces: "a Hobbit amongst the Uruk-hai") with captains, battalions and "name and number".
So there's plenty of room for both a "warrior" and a "soldier" interpretation.
Indeed, though I feel the more varied tribal orcs were from earlier times. The later evil armies due to the more cunning devices of the Dark Lord were more developed, organised and regular with the Uruk-Hai being more like regular soldiery as opposed to the earlier more irregular goblins of The Hobbit.
Also in periods when Sauron was defeated for a time (in the guise of the Necromancer) without any controlling intelligence, orcs would become more wild and tribal, being left to their own devices.
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In regards to the use of the term “battalions”, this came to mind for me....
“When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions” was used by Claudius in Shakespeare play, Hamlet, Act IV, Scene V.
And on Wiki I found this...
The term was first used in Italian as battaglione no later than the 16th century. It derived from the Italian word for battle, battaglia. The first use of battalion in English was in the 1580s, and the first use to mean "part of a regiment" is from 1708.
Whilst I agree with AKULA in that in fantasy one can have a broad range of interpretations I currently tend to agree with Hobgoblin’s interpretation.
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In regards to the use of the term “battalions”, this came to mind for me....
“When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions” was used by Claudius in Shakespeare play, Hamlet, Act IV, Scene V.
And on Wiki I found this...
The term was first used in Italian as battaglione no later than the 16th century. It derived from the Italian word for battle, battaglia. The first use of battalion in English was in the 1580s, and the first use to mean "part of a regiment" is from 1708.
I feel Tolkien’s understanding of the term, from his WW1 military experience, would be an organised regular military unit of a specific size i.e. circa 600. In The Battle of the Fords of Isen, he refers to Saruman’s Eastern force as “In the van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles” This reads as orcs being organised in regular sized units and having been trained, as regular troops would be.
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That's more the movie. There's just as many examples of specialisation in the Mordor forces in the books. The scout and the larger fighting orc for example.
No, that is not "more the movie". Tolkien wrote an essay about the Battle of Isen (foregoing the battle of the Hornburg). That, in combination with specialized troops mentioned in LotR makes a good case for Isengard.
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What an enjoyable thread, so many ideas, a truly engrossing read. Tolkien was without doubt a master of the opaque description, which was his genius and one of the reasons why his fiction is so successful. With such economy of description each reader can provide his own imagery filling in the blank spaces with imagination, which is what he intended. In interviews when asked about details of armour or heraldry or what Terran period it most resembled he was evasive and suggested that it didn’t really matter that was for the reader to provide. Hobgoblin has an extensive knowledge of the lore of Orcery and has provided some reasoned arguments, strong ones, for the appearance and organisation of the Orcs as have many others here, the important thing is that they are whatever your imagination makes them. Every exposure to someone else’s view changes the way you think slightly. Angus McBride, Alan Lee, Peter Jackson/Weta, Ralph Bakshi all influence the way you imagine Tolkien’s world, each of them has read Tolkien and imagined something different. The descriptive style can only be scrutinised so far as it is the intent behind the words that is significant. Take that one word “black” used so often I think in many different ways, always open to interpretation. I like the idea of a coal black orc. Teflon black! And yes, used in the medieval manner, it could mean the colour of someone’s hair. Tolkien often hints rather than describes, it’s for the reader to fill in the blanks. Unless he’s talking about plants and then he leans towards prolixity
As for models of Orcs most are too big, too human sized/shaped and none of them have crooked enough legs! They should be stooped, long armed and bandy. Swarthy, sallow all open to interpretation which means any colour is good if its what you like. I imagine them to be all different sizes, mostly smaller than men with a few larger “heroes”. I liked the PJ slant on Isengard mass production, industrial style weaponry, as it’s always nice to see someone else ideas, but I have to reject it. My orcs are all individuals. They have hand crafted individual weapons.
They are proponents of “Real war”, rather than “True war” Cossacks rather than House guards, never far from a bit of brigandage. Unruly mobs whipped into line. Fierce in mass, cowardly when alone.
Here are some of my kit bashes from last year, I eagerly await the Atlantic Goblins and the Oathmark Orcs, they are not of Captain Bloods standard though, but may prove of interest
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Don't hide these away on the Captain's thread, set up a new thread and I'll put them there and you can add to it. Actually, it would be really good to see a number of threads on the same theme. It might encourage more of us to join in with our own orc kitbashes.
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ok, thank you! I have few pics of them pre paint I can add too
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Definitely. Get it set up and I'll move them across. Let's see some more of these threads too.
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tis done!
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And again my thoughts echo that of Wilgut.
Something I have in my mind of the military culture of Orcs is Zulu military culture, tribal warriors but with some like the Uruk-hai having more discipline and training.... like Zulus after the Shaka reforms. Impis often are compared to Regiments but could also be compared by some to battalions.
The thing with Tolkien and PJ/WETA/GW is that where things may diverge some of us are forgiving if we think it looks cool. Hence why I am more forgiving of the LOTR movies than the Hobbit movies. But if you study Tolkien, really live and breath his work, then I think the divergences can grow increasingly more distracting.
I recall being irked by Isengard Uruk-hai having pikes at Helm's Deep when I watched the movie for the first time.... but I had forgotten Tolkien had specifically written of pikes at the Ford of Isen. That said, I am still irked by cavalry plowing head on into pikes and shattering their formation. The Rohan charge was more believable in the Pelennor scene. Of course it would have been better if they had struck the Orc flank unprepared to receive a charge.
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Well, I decided to end this ugly year on some ugly orcs >:D
Having been much waylaid by ECW and WOTR resurrections over the last six months, the poor old orcs went onto the back burner. But their time has come...
To remind you, in my quest for orcs that Tolkien might have recognised as vaguely resembling his creations, I have kitbashed these primarily from the Oathmark Goblin and Victrix Saxon sets. But with a lot of other parts thrown in too...
Four more painted:
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125240-49828938.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125240-498311371.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125241-498322149.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125241-49833775.jpeg)
And the orc horde - somewhat modest - to date... :)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125241-498341059.jpeg)
The next five to be painted...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125400-498351625.jpeg)
Then I suppose I might do a few more. If I can be bothered :D
And keeping Legolas's warning in mind...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-311220125400-49836581.jpeg)
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These last ones are terrific, an Orc hunting party methinks . Not sure about the bassinet helmet on the primed one , though . The sallow flesh tones are spot on , too . Dragon Rampant rules , perhaps ?
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Fantastic paint job and overall 'mood'. Love 'em.
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I love them. Spot on.
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Top job on those minis Richard 8)
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Lovely, OK perhaps not lovely.... spectacular :-*
What did you use as the base for the flesh Richard?
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Absolutely lovely. A skillful kitbash and a masterful paintjob
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Thanks :)
What did you use as the base for the flesh Richard?
It's a 50:50 mix of Vallejo 'Flat Earth' and 'Dark Flesh', with an Army Painter 'Flesh' ink-wash over that basecoat. Then the same base mix gradually lightened with small added amounts of white for each successive highlight. Gives a suitably sallow complexion.
And most importantly, not f*cking green ;)
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Thanks :)
It's a 50:50 mix of Vallejo 'Flat Earth' and 'Dark Flesh', with an Army Painter 'Flesh' ink-wash over that basecoat. Then the same base mix gradually lightened with small added amounts of white for each successive highlight. Gives a suitably sallow complexion.
Ta. :)
And most importantly, not f*cking green ;)
That's why I asked lol
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Stunning Job :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Cracking job 8)
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That's a superb bunch of orcs. Some great kit bashing.
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Cracking job on those orcses.
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Thanks lads :)
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Great looking “ugly” orcs Richard....bags of character
:)
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Brilliant Cap'n :-*
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I like the new orcs. Well Done :-*
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Thanks all :)
Well, while I should have been painting the rest of my orcs, I somehow got diverted and kitbashed half a dozen Uruk-hai instead... (the kitbasher's dilemma - it's so much more fun making them than painting them lol)
These Uruk-hai will serve the White Hand of Isengard, so I've tried to model them as bigger and a bit more manlike than the orcs - Saruman's army contains half-orcs and cross-breeds.
Once again these are primarily made up from Oathmark Goblins and Victrix Saxons, but with parts from various Frostgrave and other sets. As Uruk-hai, they should be armed with straight swords, but I figured I could get away with a scimitar on one of them - it seems to suit him :)
Ugluk and chums...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-030121115823-498671995.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-030121115823-49869854.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-030121115824-49870624.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-030121115824-49871762.jpeg)
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They look really good :-*
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Brilliant work yet again!
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Fantastic! I wonder if they're not more like Saruman's "Men or Orc-men" than his Uruk-hai: those leering faces look perfect for cutting down Theodreds and ordering around Hobbits!
That said, I've no doubt that they'll look perfect as Isengard Uruk-hai when put next to your Mordor Uruks. The latest batch of the latter are splendid.
Absolutely tremendous in any case - can't wait to see the Isengarders painted up!
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Like the use of the Mantic Zombie/Ghoul heads. Give them a grubby look that befits orcs and adds to their character. :D
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Very nice result 8)
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8)
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I've just discovered your thread Richard, God knows how I've missed it. I've got to say brilliant as per your usual standard. I'm currently painting the plastic dwarves from the Hobbit movie and your Orcs are inspiring me ( yet again ) to do more fantasy stuff. I've been a bit of a plastic phobe in the past, but some of the detail you get in the various manufacturers kits is amazing. Keep up the great work mate.
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Excellent! Your getting pretty awesome at this kit bashing lark. :-*
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Thanks lads :)
Here are the final five finished orcs from the original batch I concocted...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121141854-49937261.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121141854-49938914.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121141854-499391518.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121141854-499401987.jpeg)
And here's the first orc company complete...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121141855-4994182.jpeg)
Making Mordor Great Again... ;)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121142349.jpeg)
I've just made up another six orc archers, and the Uruk-hai are half-painted already. Can't tell you how much I am enjoying doing these. Weird.
I've also gone mad and bought about 10 different additional plastic sprues off eBay lol
After I've finished the orcs, I'm starting on some kitbashed Haradrim - I've even bought some Victrix war elephants (oliphaunts, here we come ::))
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Superb!
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I for one are glad for your madness, it will make lockdown more bearable if we get to see your take on Tolkien every few days. Good man.
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Can't tell you how much I am enjoying doing these. Weird.
I've also gone mad and bought about 10 different additional plastic sprues off eBay lol
After I've finished the orcs, I'm starting on some kitbashed Haradrim - I've even bought some Victrix war elephants (oliphaunts, here we come ::))
Excellent...because you can’t really have a couple of dozen orcs it would look odd.
Couple of thousand...much more sensible ;)
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Mordor and the Eye! :D
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Like the use of the Mantic Zombie/Ghoul heads. Give them a grubby look that befits orcs and adds to their character. :D
Pretty sure it's just ghoul heads...the zombie ones tend to have large, gaping wounds across the head...though they're cross compatible
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Gorgeous!
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Thank you Joe :)
Yes, there’s a Mantic ghoul head in there. That free sprue from Salute finally came in useful lol
I’ve used the second Mantic head on one of the orc archers - coming soon!
The other two nasty looking heads on the Uruks are from the excellent Frostgrave Cultists set, a super versatile resource.
Excellent...because you can’t really have a couple of dozen orcs it would look odd.
Couple of thousand...much more sensible ;)
lol Ah, Matt, I am not going to get into a kitbashing arms race with you, my friend. You are waaaaay too prolific lol
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They are very good.
That free sprue from Salute finally came in useful lol
That explains why I have one more sprue than I was expecting...
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Yes, I think it was in the goody bag five or six years ago lol
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Stunning work :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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wow!!
those are quite splendid
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They came together seamlessly as a group of varied 'realistic' Orcs. Lovely work.
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Very nice, as usual!
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Thanks :)
Orc painting has been interrupted by frenzied kitbashing of Haradrim and their pachyderms! Pics soon, all being well...
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Supoib collection of Orcsies.
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I can't remember if I have chimed in with the others yet, Richard. I seem to be gushing praise endlessly at your creation so I fear I may devalue my posts.
Anyway, to be a bit more nuanced in my laudations: those orcs are bot innovative and old school at the same time. I have myself recently painted about a hundred uruk-hai of the Games Workshop/Weta/Peter Jackson type, and while they are certainly not shit, they not close to the vision I once had of how orcs of various breeds should look. Yours come much closer to the Angus McBride/Hildebrand i pictured in my mind back when I was... 10?
I thikn you are on the right track with arms and armor to. The PJ orcs, armed by WETA, look too much like inefficient and flimsy scrap metal, which is a clear deviation from the descriptions in the books.
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lol Gush away, Peder - I can take it ;)
I’ve been temporarily diverted from my orcses by a strange urge to extend my Tolkien kitbashing to other races, starting with the Haradrim.
The Haradrim are men in the service of the Dark Lord, Sauron - basically stereotypical rascally Middle Eastern types (although they come from the south, ‘Southrons’, rather than the east). There are ‘Easterlings’ as well, in Tolkien’s landscape of races and cultures, but none of these bit-part races are well described in the books. In fact, apart from hobbits and elves, none of Tolkien’s races are that well described in his writings. He’s much more interested in their languages, literature, and genealogies, than important things like their clothes, armour, weapons, customs, etc. All this is sketchily described for the most part.
In the case of the Haradrim, all he really tells us is that they’re brave fighters - tall, dark-skinned, with braided black hair and dark eyes. They wear scarlet and black with golden ornaments, including (shock, horror!) earrings. Corsets of overlapping brazen plates and scimitars get a mention. Shields are round, yellow with black designs. One of their chieftains has a black serpent motif on his scarlet banners. They have war elephants called Mûmakil (‘oliphaunts’ to the hobbits) also bedecked in scarlet and gold trappings, with fighting towers on their backs for spearmen and bowmen. And… that’s about it.
Based on this, I’ve gone for a more or less ‘Arabian Nights’ look :)
I used parts from around 20 different plastic kits to make up this small force…
Forgive me while I bore you with some of the details. (For those who don’t like reading lots of words, just enjoy the pictures ;))
These first three Haradrim all have heads from the Fireforge Russian Infantry set. The heads, sporting a variety of Eastern spiky helmet styles, are perfect for this pseudo-Eastern melange.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175055-499952112.jpeg)
The Russian bodies aren’t bad – lamellar armour or mail. Except that they have really badly sculpted swords moulded-onto their sides. Why? Most of the other FF sets have separate swords in scabbards, which is a much better idea. (I couldn’t be bothered to cut them off and make good, so I’ve just left them where I’ve used these bodies. Mostly they’ll be covered by shields anyway). The Russian arms are also a mixed bag – very crabbed looking, and some with open hands. Not great. But the heads alone are worth the price of entry.
For kitbashers who care:
- The L/hand figure is one of the FF Russian bodies with a pair of Perry HYW French knight’s arm with axe.
- The middle figure has a Gripping Beast Arab Infantry body (the bodies aren’t too bad if you’re just after plain robes – but IMHO the heads are Godawful: comical cartoon bazaar characters). Arms and mace from the FF Russian set.
- R/hand figure is a FF Foot Serjeants body with Frostgrave cultist arms.
The next three figures (below) also have heads from the FF Russian set, but to these I’ve added Green Stuff puggarees, and puggaree tails from the Perry Afghan set.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175055-50005521.jpeg)
- The L/hand figure has a FF Russian body with Perry HYW French arms and a Perry Afghan shield.
- The middle figure is another GB Arab body, and the R/hand figure a FF Byzantine spearman body.
I think the Byzantine set was the first Fireforge set where they changed to digital sculpting, and it shows.
I’d hoped to use some of the Byzantine heads (slightly pointy, near eastern-looking helmets with lamellar aventails) but unfortunately the heads in this Byzantine set are weirdly deformed - way too long, front to back - so I decided against. Pity. The Byzantine bodies however, are very nice.
The two figures on the right both use arms from the Frostgrave Knights set. The shield on the centre figure is from the FF Steppe Warriors set. The r/hand figure has a Wargames Atlantic Irish shield.
Now I confess I’ve been a bit sniffy about one or two of the early Wargames Atlantic offerings, but I freely recant as far as this Dark Age Irish set goes, because it's very nice indeed. It has only six different bodies (boo!) but a cornucopia of lovely shields in different shapes and sizes, plus a lot of attractive arm, weapon and head options. It’s also very sharply moulded.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175055-500061974.jpeg)
The next three (above) all have Perry Afghan heads. L-to-R:
- FF Byzantine body (excellent crisp detail, which seems to be common to all the digitally sculpted plastic sets), Victrix Saxon shield, FF Foot Serjeant arms.
- FF Foot Serjeants body, GB Arab shield, Perry HYW French arms and falchion (scimitar)
- Frostgrave Cultist body, Perry WOTR infantry arms with another HYW falchion swapped onto the end of the right arm. Wargames Atlantic Irish buckler. Plus Green Stuff dreads…
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175055-50007499.jpeg)
The last three, above, L-to-R:
- FF Russian body, GB veiled Arab head (there are a couple of these veiled heads on each GB Arab frame, and they’re the only worthwhile heads in the set IMHO), Perry Afghan arms, Oathmark goblin shield.
- GB Arab body, Perry Ansar head, Perry Afghan arms and drum.
- FF Russian body, Frostgrave soldier arms, a very nice big convex shield from the FF Russian set, and the head… not sure. Might be GW from the bits box? Looks suitably Turkic, in any event.
Here they are all together…
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175056-50008561.jpeg)
And from behind…
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175355-500092076.jpeg)
The paint scheme will do the heavy lifting to tie together all these many and various elements into a cohesive looking company of fierce Haradrim.
Onto the pachyderms…
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175355-500101676.jpeg)
These are the Victrix African War elephants.
This is a great kit, although apart from the mahouts, a couple of javelin arms, and one set of pike arms, I haven’t used any of the 16 beautiful crew figures that come with the set (providing Roman, Carthaginian, Ptolemaic and Numidian options – none of which are any good to me for this project, nice as they are).
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175355-500112244.jpeg)
The mahouts have been doctored with new heads and shields.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175741-500151417.jpeg)
The fighting crews are kitbashed like the infantry, from similar sources. There are a couple of other kits involved here though, including a Frostgrave Barbarian head, a heavily doctored FF Templar knight head, and a GB Saxon thegn body!
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175355-500121160.jpeg)
The elephants themselves are straight builds from the kit – you can make slightly different versions depending on which halves you pair, and which trunk you add.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175740-500142276.jpeg)
I have however added a shitload of random stowage from the bits box to the howdahs, treating them in much the same way as my WW2 AFVs lol
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175355-50013353.jpeg)
Here’s a stowage option I felt I had to just try out :D
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175741-50016570.jpeg)
And here’s the whole rascally gang together.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175741-500171998.jpeg)
It will be a while before this little lot gets painted, as I have a lot more orcs to finish first - amongst many other things ::)
I also have trolls and warg riders underway… Watch this space!
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!!!
Impressive for many reasons, not least of which is the number of kits you cobbled together into miniatures that seem entirely natural.
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You have been busy, I think a fifty cal would look better though.
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Excellent kitbashery Richard as always...impressed by the sheer variety of parts used, but it’s definitely paid off.
:)
Must add some of those FF Russians to my list...oh, and if you don’t like the FF Byzantine heads, I’d be happy to take them off your hands...I ended up trimming some of them to fit, but I can always do with more for my unsullied :D
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Great work yet again! I love your kitbashing and thanks again for the continuing inspiration.
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Exceptional as usual! Can’t wait to see your interpretation of the color scheme for them.
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Very nice Richard :-*
But please get on and do some goodies(tho’ you’re probably waiting on the Vitrix Normans ;)).
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Outstanding kit bashing of the highest order,as usual Richard 8)
But what I'd really like to see is a picture of your sprue collection! :o
Now that would be a thread to view (pic heavy) lol
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Lovely kitbashing. Pretty sure the unidentified head on the final footsoldier is from the GW Mordheim "hairy head" sprue.
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(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/49/577-080121142349.jpeg)
Very clean paintwork, nice bright colors, love 'em 8)
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Thanks chaps :)
Lovely kitbashing. Pretty sure the unidentified head on the final footsoldier is from the GW Mordheim "hairy head" sprue.
Ah, thank you Tom. Yes, that would make sense. Mason kindly donated a batch of those heads to me a few years ago, and every now and then, one of them finds its way out of the bits box and into a kitbash :)
Very nice Richard :-*
But please get on and do some goodies(tho’ you’re probably waiting on the Vitrix Normans ;)).
Cheers Guy. You are so right. The Victrix Norman cavalry will form the basis of my Rohirrim / Gondorians. Eventually. Got to make a viable army of baddies first though :)
oh, and if you don’t like the FF Byzantine heads, I’d be happy to take them off your hands...I ended up trimming some of them to fit, but I can always do with more for my unsullied :D
Thanks Matt lol
Luckily I only bought one frame off an eBay reseller. Like I say, the bodies are rather nice and I've used three of the five already. But the heads are almost Alien-like in their extraordinary length. However, I'll probably hang onto them, just in case...
You have more than enough plastic to be going on with lol ;)
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Exceptional as usual! Can’t wait to see your interpretation of the color scheme for them.
Just what he said
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A superb thread - I really like your vision of how troops from the end of the Third Age should "look", and your use of the vast array of plastic options these days to realise it. And the kit bashing and painting is as always top notch.
I working on a mid Third Age Fornost / Angmar project at the moment to do games using Oathmark. GB plastic late romans, dark age infantry, saxons and vikings, FF Russians and metals by Wargames Foundry (Late Romans, Arthurians) and Newline (Arthurians and Late Romans - underrated in my view) are all going into the mix.
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Thank you. Your project sounds interesting! Looking forward to seeing it :)
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Excellent work Richard; very much enjoying and being informed by your ‘novel’ interpretations (though I’m a ‘movie’ man myself). 8) :-*
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Brill. Those nellies really do the trick 8)
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Thanks friends :)
Excellent work Richard; very much enjoying and being informed by your ‘novel’ interpretations (though I’m a ‘movie’ man myself). 8) :-*
Thanks Steve. Don't get me wrong, I love Peter Jackson's movies beyond reason (well the LOTR trilogy, maybe not The Hobbit trilogy quite so much). I just wanted to recreate something closer to what Tolkien actually describes (fundamentally simple, Dark Ages / early medieval arms and armour). Rather than the roccoco output of the overheated imaginations of a generation of 'Tolkien interpreters' ;)
Anyway... Here's the first group of Uruk-Hai. As mentioned above, some are more deliberately manlike / half-orcish - certainly bigger and less 'creature-like' than regular orcs...
They're meant to have an S-rune on their helms, but I figured that would be a step too far even for me lol
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-190121120454-500661588.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-190121120454-50073659.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-190121120454-500741282.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-190121120455-500752402.jpeg)
The orcish kitbash company thus far... :)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-190121120455-50076496.jpeg)
Plenty more to come! Haradrim, Mumakil, Trolls, warg riders, and more of both varieties of orc...
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Wonderful figures and painting. :-*
You are the undisputed master of kit bashing.
I find the bright green a bit Elvish rather than Uruk Hai but the standard of modelling and painting is magnificent
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At the risk of repeating myself, they look bloody marvellous mate.
Particularly like the white hand shields and the weathering, oh...and the choice of palette, kitbashing...poses etc etc etc
8)
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Superb - and those shields are tremendous!
They're meant to have an S-rune on their helms, but I figured that would be a step too far even for me lol
Oddly enough, some of the really old orcs from Ral Partha and Asgard have the S-rune (like a two-stroke C) present and correct.
Are you tempted to do some of the half-orc axemen from the Isen? Those Victrix Vikings and Saxons with Dane-axes offer plenty of scope for them.
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Super job on those, especially like the white hand shields :)
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Thanks chaps :)
Are you tempted to do some of the half-orc axemen from the Isen? Those Victrix Vikings and Saxons with Dane-axes offer plenty of scope for them.
Yes, tempted indeed. And some other allied evil types too. But rather a lot more of the core evil forces to get through first :)
I find the bright green a bit Elvish rather than Uruk Hai but the standard of modelling and painting is magnificent
Thanks Mick. Yes, I thought the same thing as I was painting them, but wanted something (other than the shields and their general stature) to somewhat visually differentiate the Isengard Uruks from the Mordor orcs, which are all in dark reds, purples, blacks etc. So controversially went for a somewhat fresher palette for them. I'll tone it down a bit for the rest of the troop when I get round to them :)
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You could decide that the Uruks were like Landsknechts and added colours for winning a battle.
The bright green could be plunder from dead Elvish warriors that the Uruks vanquished...
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lol
It’s a good story, and I’m sticking to it.
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Great kitbashing, excellent brushwork... particularly those shields!
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The shields are great, they all look identical.
They are hand painted though not decals?
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Thanks lads :)
The shields are great, they all look identical.
They are hand painted though not decals?
Yes, handpainted, Colin. It’s actually a pretty easy symbol to paint, but looks very effective. They’re all a wee bit different if you look closely (don’t look closely lol)
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Most impressive. Love the freehands (especially the White Hand). The kitbash worked exceptionally well, they all look cohesive and like they were desigen dthat way.
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At the risk of repeating myself, they look bloody marvellous mate.
Indeed. One runs out of new superlatives to use for kit bashing and painting of this caliber.
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Thank you :)
The next painted contingent completed - scummy orc bowmen.
Once again kitbashed from a variety of plastic sets, plus a little Green Stuff here and there (hoods, capes etc).
The heads are mainly Oathmark goblin in origin, although there’s another Mantic ghoul head in there too (getting my money’s worth out of that Salute freebie!)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121151920-501532421.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121151921-501591365.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121151921-501602360.jpeg)
I’ve also finished the first of my trolls.
He’s an Atlantis Miniatures orc. I bought six of these (they make about 10 different ones). They’re absolutely gorgeous models - insanely detailed, superbly cast, and with wonderful character - but they don’t look anything like orcs to me.
They do, however, look a lot like how I’ve always imagined trolls to look. Hurray!
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121151921-501611108.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121151921-501621213.jpeg)
Just realised, I missed his goatee - ah well, it can be a wart lol
Here's Bert, along with his pals yet to be painted…
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121152624-501632190.jpeg)
These boys are supposedly 28mm scale, but come up at about 45mm high including the base (I’ve dispensed with the slottas – slottas, eeeyurgggh – and replaced them with a similarly chunky bases of my own making, to give them that bit of extra stature).
Tolkien never says exactly how big trolls are. Tom, Bert and Bill in ‘The Hobbit’ are simply described as ‘three very large persons’.
I guess that 45mm would make my trolls about nine feet tall, if we take a regular 28mm figure as being around six foot? They’re also extremely butch and beefy. Nowhere near as gigantic as the Weta/Jackson trolls, but plenty big enough to stand out amongst my rabble of orcs.
Atlantis Miniatures do an even larger range of equally wonderful ogres, which are half as big again – about 65mm tall. But their armour, weapons etc, are a bit more sophisticated. Whereas my vision of trolls is that they are very primitive in their gear and weapons.
Anyway, here’s the evil horde so far, mustering sur le table...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121152624-501642156.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121152624-50165544.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121152624-501661019.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121152625-5016772.jpeg)
I’ve also done a test build of a warg rider - he’s basically just an Oathmark goblin wolf rider.
I must confess I’m not really sold on the Oathmark giant wolves themselves though. The faces are good, but they're strangely hairless beasts apart from a ruff and the tail. These alas, look a lot more like feathers than fur. I’ve noticed the one thing plastic moulding is just terrible at rendering, is fur. It always seems to come out looking look more like stylised feathers. Or leaves.
Luckily, we have Green Stuff, which is excellent for portraying fur and hair. So wolfie has had a generous layer added (wargs should look shaggy, dammit), and the rider has a new fur cape.
I'll get him painted and decide if further adjustments are needed, before I make up the whole dastardly troop...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121153114-501681739.jpeg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-290121153114-50169116.jpeg)
Next up, the first lift of painted Haradrim…
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Very nice all around. Love Bert the Troll in particular.
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Excellent stuff all round. That Atlantis guy makes a splendid troll.
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Excellent stuff all round. That Atlantis guy makes a splendid troll.
+1 :)
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Top notch work all round, Riccardo!
8) 8)
I have not been looking this way lately for fear of you distracting me and making me turn to my own Middle Earth lunacy, which is supposed to wait some more, but I could not resist forever!
Top drawer work on the building (you need to do something about this plastic crack addiction, ya know? ;)), most inspirational, and the brushwork is up to your usual insanely high standard, of course.
Those shields!
:-* :-*
As for the 'alternative' baggage load: That could almost work in the Shire at the end of Return of the King, what with Sharkey's 'industrial' approach.......almost. Maybe something more VSF rather than WW2.
;)
Oh, and 'Making Morder Great Again' did give me a chuckle....
lol
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“Wolfie has a generous layer of fur”. That’s what my wife says lol
Lovely work Richard :-* :-* :-*
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lol
Guy, I always imagined you as so sleek ;) lol
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Fantastic, Richard.
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lol
Guy, I always imagined you as so sleek ;) lol
‘Tis true,long dog walks will do that :) Hairy,grey,and slim lol
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Great stuff. 8)
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Utterly marvellous! The bright clothing is unusual - and it looks great!
Tolkien never says exactly how big trolls are.
He does say this in The Two Towers (in 'The Road to Isengard'):
[There] came forward out of the trees three strange shapes. As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height....
But twelve-foot trolls aren't quite congruent with this description from 'The Black Gate Opens':
[There] came striding up, roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth. Taller and broader than Men they were, and they were clad only in close-fitting mesh of horny scales, or maybe that was their hideous hide; but they bore round bucklers huge and black and wielded heavy hammers in their knotted hands.
It's not that "taller and broader than Men" rules out a 12' height; it's just that it seems an odd way of saying it if they were actually twice as tall. And it's hard to imagine a 12' creature getting its shoulder and leg through a dwarf door!
I suspect the answer is that Tolkien's trolls are just as tall as they need to be for any point in the story - however frustrating wargamers might find such narrative elasticity!
Yours look terrific - and they certainly look spot-on scale-wise for the Cormallen and Moria descriptions. Very much looking forward to seeing the rest painted!
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Utterly marvellous! The bright clothing is unusual - and it looks great!
He does say this in The Two Towers (in 'The Road to Isengard'):
But twelve-foot trolls aren't quite congruent with this description from 'The Black Gate Opens':
It's not that "taller and broader than Men" rules out a 12' height; it's just that it seems an odd way of saying it if they were actually twice as tall. And it's hard to imagine a 12' creature getting its shoulder and leg through a dwarf door!
I suspect the answer is that Tolkien's trolls are just as tall as they need to be for any point in the story - however frustrating wargamers might find such narrative elasticity!
Yours look terrific - and they certainly look spot-on scale-wise for the Cormallen and Moria descriptions. Very much looking forward to seeing the rest painted!
I thought the Black Gate trolls were a newer breed that were more “controllable” and could stand the light of day, the Olog-Hai?
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I thought the Black Gate trolls were a newer breed that were more “controllable” and could stand the light of day, the Olog-Hai?
Yes, they presumably are. But there's nothing explicit about the Olog-hai being smaller than other trolls (and strong implications that they're the most fearsome sort), and the earlier statement just seems to be about trolls in general rather than any specific type. The cave-troll that tries to push its way into the Chamber of Mazarbul doesn't seem to be 12' tall, as it has its shoulder and foot through the crack of the dwarf-door at the same time.
Again, I suspect that Tolkien was content to let trolls be whatever size they needed to be at any given point. And I'm sure he would have rationalised it if need be by saying that different breeds of trolls come in different shapes and sizes!
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Hobgoblin is right as usual, I think. Tolkien played pretty free and easy with size. I don't think trolls are anywhere near as big as they are in the movie. I am OK with the ones in the Hobbit being (or seeming) bigger because we are largely seeing trolls from the perspective of a Hobbit.
As far as Olog-hai size - I would be happy to have these smaller - I have known some scary short people who you wouldn't want to take on!
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...and then there’s the quote from The
Yes, I am afraid trolls do behave like that, even those with only one head each."
This is of course the narrators voice saying this in the not-100%-integrated childrens story that tH is, so it ca be interpreted in a number of ways.
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Thanks chaps :)
Yes, as I’ve said before, I get the impression Tolkien didn’t really care all that much about what things looked like - hence so many sketchy and sometimes conflicting descriptions of things that we’d love to have more details on. He was much more interested in the idea of what that thing was: it’s nature, be that one of his characters, races, or creatures. Which, on the plus side, leaves a lot of room for interpretation - which the Alan Lees and John Howes of this world have made handsome careers out of.
The cave troll that forces its arm and leg through that dwarf door in Moria, is described as covered in black-green scaly skin like armour, and having a solid foot without toes. Yet when Frodo stabs it in its foot with Sting, it’s enough to cause it to instantly retreat. True the blade is elven, but it’s also tiny relative to a giant troll. None of it really makes too much sense lol
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Both Hobgoblin and Captain Blood make excellent points. Tolkien can be inconsistent at times but even with that aside I would suggest that were we able to ask him he would say it is up to the reader to see the specifics of his world to fill in the blanks to their individual satisfaction.
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Tolkien is being true to his Norse Saga sources. Trolls and giants (jotun) vary considerably in appearance and size from story to story.
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I love this version of Orcs, very inspiring.
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I thought the Black Gate trolls were a newer breed that were more “controllable” and could stand the light of day, the Olog-Hai?
The Olog-Hai were half-trolls, and they were, supposedly, created in the East, believed to be the crossbreeding of trolls and men.
There are also mordor trolls that were shaped by the will of Sauron to be immune to the light of day until Sauron's fall. They were bigger and more controlled than the normal ones.
Yes, they presumably are. But there's nothing explicit about the Olog-hai being smaller than other trolls (and strong implications that they're the most fearsome sort), and the earlier statement just seems to be about trolls in general rather than any specific type. The cave-troll that tries to push its way into the Chamber of Mazarbul doesn't seem to be 12' tall, as it has its shoulder and foot through the crack of the dwarf-door at the same time.
Again, I suspect that Tolkien was content to let trolls be whatever size they needed to be at any given point. And I'm sure he would have rationalised it if need be by saying that different breeds of trolls come in different shapes and sizes!
The chamber having a larger door is something also easy to see there. They weren't a secret door, and dwarf construction tends to lean towards the grandiose with regard to stone and metalwork. A large set of double doors fits the dwarf aesthetics there, especially due to it being a room for records, despite also being the location of the last stand there.
There are also a lot of different types of trolls. I think it's a 7 or 8 types with the difference being the Snow Trolls which is something that may or may not be a real thing (The description is used to describe how one of the Rohirrim kings or heroes snuck into enemy camps like a snow troll and left none alive...if I remember the bit correctly).
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The Olog-Hai were half-trolls, and they were, supposedly, created in the East, believed to be the crossbreeding of trolls and men.
No, the Olog-hai were trolls. There's a mention of "Black Men like half-trolls" at the Pelennor Fields, but they're described as Men, not as trolls. Here's what Tolkien says about the Olog-hai:
[At] the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.
There's nothing about them being created by cross-breeding with Men. And they weren't half-trolls ("Trolls they were ...").
In some unpublished writing, Tolkien does speculate about later trolls being made from "primitive human stock". But the end results were full trolls.
There are also mordor trolls that were shaped by the will of Sauron to be immune to the light of day until Sauron's fall. They were bigger and more controlled than the normal ones.
Those are the Olog-hai - as the Appendix F quote above makes plain. The logical inference from the Appendix F reference is that all the trolls seen in daylight (mountain-trolls seen at the Pelennor and hill-trolls at Gorgoroth) are Olog-hai. The Appendix reference is also foreshadowed in 'The Shadow of the Past':
Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons.
The chamber having a larger door is something also easy to see there. They weren't a secret door, and dwarf construction tends to lean towards the grandiose with regard to stone and metalwork. A large set of double doors fits the dwarf aesthetics there, especially due to it being a room for records, despite also being the location of the last stand there.
It's definitely just a single door, though it is described as "high". But the height of the very front doors of Moria is stressed, and Gandalf can still touch the inscription above them - and they are double doors. So it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that the single door to the Chamber is close to 12' high when the double doors to the complex can't be much more than 7', given Tolkien's description of Gandalf:
Gandalf even bent must have been at least 5 ft. 6... Which would make him a short man even in modern England, especially with the reduction of a bent back
There are also a lot of different types of trolls. I think it's a 7 or 8 types with the difference being the Snow Trolls which is something that may or may not be a real thing (The description is used to describe how one of the Rohirrim kings or heroes snuck into enemy camps like a snow troll and left none alive...if I remember the bit correctly).
Yes, that's in Appendix A: Helm Hammerhand.
From memory, we get stone trolls, hill trolls, cave trolls, mountain trolls and snow trolls. Then there are the Men "like half-trolls". The second (and last) time they are mentioned, they are just described as "half-trolls," so it's possible that they are actual hybrids; Tolkien( or Sam) describes Bill Ferny's friend as "more than half like a goblin", but it's later clear that he and Sharkey's Men do have Orcish blood.
The erroneous view Tolkien describes of the Olog-hai as "giant orcs" dovetails nicely with the good Captain's rendition of them, I think. You could take those fellows as giant orcs, even if you weren't strictly correct!
I think there might be something somewhere about the Elves not distinguishing between orcs and trolls, linguistically at least (though we do get Elvish words for both).
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As for the 'alternative' baggage load: That could almost work in the Shire at the end of Return of the King, what with Sharkey's 'industrial' approach.......almost. Maybe something more VSF rather than WW2.
;)
:D
Here's the first half of the Haradrim completed...
Same again to go, but I think I'll go back and do some more orcs first ::)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145010-50240961.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145010-50241163.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145010-50242981.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145010-502431335.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145010-502441178.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145302-502452371.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145302-50246333.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145302-502491791.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145302-502482139.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-050221145302-50247138.jpeg)
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Loving your take on this Richard :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
beautiful painting
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Love the Haradrim and Oliphant :-*
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A fantastic unit. Very well done.
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Wow! Love-love-love your work.
What a wonderful collection of models and kitbashing.
I recognize the Fireforge Medieval Russian heads and the old Mordheim Middenheimer head, but where did you get the heads wearing the turbans?
Is that a Victrix elephant?
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Thanks lads :)
I recognize the Fireforge Medieval Russian heads and the old Mordheim Middenheimer head, but where did you get the heads wearing the turbans?
Is that a Victrix elephant?
Yes, Victrix elephant with a bit of adaptation ;)
All the parts used in these Haradrim kitbashes are listed out (and the unpainted builds shown) back on P13 of this thread :)
But to answer your question, two of the turban heads are from the recent Perry Afghan set. The helmets with the wraparound turban, are, as you say, Fireforge Russian heads with Green Stuff added.
I've got the other six infantry and the second elephant and crew yet to paint. But I've decided to work on and paint my first batch of wargs next (3 of 6), as they're going to take a LOT of adaptation.
Getting there slowly...
So far I've finished:
12 Mordor orc infantry
6 Mordor orc bowmen
6 Isengard Uruk-hai
1 Stone troll
6 Haradrim infantry
1 Oliphaunt and crew!
Made, prepped, primed or in process are...
5 more stone trolls
6 more Haradrim infantry
1 more Oliphaunt and crew
3 giant wargs and riders
Yet to begin making:
6 more Mordor orc bowmen
6 more Isengard Uruk-hai
3 giant wargs and riders
Should be quite a tasty little force once all done 8)
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They look excellent! The bold bright colours suit them well. :-*
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It’s great to see your project in full flow...maybe we should rename you Captain Flood ;)
The Haradrim and Oliphaunt are my favourites so far...have never been a fan of the ridiculously sized beasts in the films.
8)
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The Russian/Byzantine bits work really well for the Haradrim!
And great work on the bold paint scheme! (as always!)
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Great work, yet again!
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Incredible work as always Captain- everything from the kit bashing to the painting.
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Ooh, love those haradrim! But any temptation to copy was swiftly dispelled when I went back and read your parts list!
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Thanks all :)
Ooh, love those haradrim! But any temptation to copy was swiftly dispelled when I went back and read your parts list!
Yes, I had to buy quite a few assorted sprues off eBay to create these. But I think they’re worth it. And all those sprues, with all their remaining parts, will come in useful for other projects down the line :)
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Beautiful colours on those.
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I was thinking on using Fireforge Byzantine infantry as Umbar troops, and now that I see your minis, I think that my idea is spot on!!
Great minis!! Thanks for sharing.
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Wow! Amazing minis.
Just out of interest, can you explain the paint system you used for the elephant? It's a really nice scheme!
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So vibrant :-*
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Most excellent! I love that serpent iconography too.
Dan
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I would like to know when you plan to paint this:
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175741-50016570.jpeg)
:) :) :)
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Thanks all :)
I would like to know when you plan to paint this:
:) :) :)
Camo all over I think :D lol
(It's an Oliphaunt technical of the Harad Liberation Front ;))
Just out of interest, can you explain the paint system you used for the elephant? It's a really nice scheme!
Certainly :)
Most people think elephants are grey, but if you look at photos of actual elephants, most of them look closer to brown.
Partly this is because they spend a lot of time rolling in mud or covered in dust, but also because their hide is a kind of grey-brown colour, not a 'pure' grey.
- I mixed Vallejo Medium Grey and Flat Earth approx. 50:50, and painted it all over.
- Then I added a touch of Vallejo Pale Sand to that same mix and gave it a drybrush.
- Then I gave the whole thing a fairly dilute wash of Army Painter Strong Tone ink.
- Then I did something which I thought was a brilliant idea, but didn't quite work lol - I gave the whole thing a dilute wash of AK Interactive 'Africa Dust Effects', which is a very pale sand colour, and works a treat weathering Afrika Korps panzers! I thought some dust in all the cracks and crevices on Nellie's hide would look good. But as it turned out, the contrast was just too much, and the 'dust' got trapped in area where it just wouldn't (like all around the saddle cloth, which is meant to be loose fabric, of course). So I managed to wash most of that off again using neat white spirit. There's still a bit of dusty residue here and there though, which I think perhaps helps the overall end effect.
- Once I'd painted in all the ropes, furnishings, and details like tusks and eyeballs, I then used a raw umber oil paint wash, diluted with about 20 parts to one, white spirit. To redefine around particular areas, like the eye sockets and so on.
Truthfully, you could carry on titivating forever, and it would never be 'right'. I think the most important thing TBH, is to paint your elephant a browny-grey colour, not a true 'black+white=grey' grey. Get that right, and all the other effects are a bonus :)
I'm going to go a bit browner again on the next one. Watch this space...
EDIT: Added a couple of elephantine close-ups, in case it helps with the colours used on the hide... :)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-070221222553-502832296.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-070221222553-502852429.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-070221222553-502841278.jpeg)
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Lovely vivd colors with a beautiful paintjob, like it very much!
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Great work!
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Images that have a white background and stunning paint jobs (respect Captain Blood) work best :-*
I recently myself master shooting white background photography too 📸🖼😍
Thank You Richard for my motivation to take action ;)
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Fantastic freehand job on those snakes, Richard.
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I would like to know when you plan to paint this:
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-150121175741-50016570.jpeg)
:) :) :)
lol lol lol
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Thank you gentlemen :)
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Most people think elephants are grey, but if you look at photos of actual elephants, most of them look closer to brown.
Partly this is because they spend a lot of time rolling in mud or covered in dust, but also because their hide is a kind of grey-brown colour, not a 'pure' grey.
- I mixed Vallejo Medium Grey and Flat Earth approx. 50:50, and painted it all over.
- Then I added a touch of Vallejo Pale Sand to that same mix and gave it a drybrush.
- Then I gave the whole thing a fairly dilute wash of Army Painter Strong Tone ink.
- Then I did something which I thought was a brilliant idea, but didn't quite work lol - I gave the whole thing a dilute wash of AK Interactive 'Africa Dust Effects', which is a very pale sand colour, and works a treat weathering Afrika Korps panzers! I thought some dust in all the cracks and crevices on Nellie's hide would look good. But as it turned out, the contrast was just too much, and the 'dust' got trapped in area where it just wouldn't (like all around the saddle cloth, which is meant to be loose fabric, of course). So I managed to wash most of that off again using neat white spirit. There's still a bit of dusty residue here and there though, which I think perhaps helps the overall end effect.
- Once I'd painted in all the ropes, furnishings, and details like tusks and eyeballs, I then used a raw umber oil paint wash, diluted with about 20 parts to one, white spirit. To redefine around particular areas, like the eye sockets and so on.
Truthfully, you could carry on titivating forever, and it would never be 'right'. I think the most important thing TBH, is to paint your elephant a browny-grey colour, not a true 'black+white=grey' grey. Get that right, and all the other effects are a bonus :)
Excellent tones on Dumbo, thanks for the detailed step-by-step.
I think I'll add a pink dapples on trunk, face and lips when I do my own.They seem to be more usual on Asian elephants than the African subspecieseses... (don't know how to end spelling that word...)
(https://www.intrepidtravel.com/adventures/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/be-kind-thailand-chiang-mai-4356-e1533882785294.jpg)
Elephants do seem to excrete a lot from the head. When I go fulltime philantropist I shall sponsor a band of safari dermatologists and beauty technicians to travel the sub-Sahara region and advice elephants on the right use and application of deo sticks. Most seem like they could do with good defoliants and moisturisers to.
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Great work on all of it.
The Haradrim could at a pinch be conscripted as the Golden Company for GoT.
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The Haradrim could at a pinch be conscripted as the Golden Company for GoT.
Ooooh! Good idea Frede 8)
Peder, yes, I looked at hundreds of elephant pics. In some of them, they appear to be smeared with what looks like rust in patches all over their ears, faces and front quarters. I very nearly tried to do that, then thought 'too much', and left it.
But it's certainly true that elephants are covered in all sorts of colours and blotches. They are very rarely (as far as I can see) the nice uniform grey colour beloved of children's picture books.
But then (sorry, one of my pet themes!) children's picture books are responsible for very many enduring colour misconceptions, like:
Tree trunks are not usually brown
Rivers are almost never blue, nor is the sea
Sheep are almost never white
And so on...
Now I can add: elephants are not usually grey lol
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Now I can add: elephants are not usually grey lol
That's right! I have for a very long time been trying to convince people that they are pink!
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Basically I think you are right lol
Similarly 'black' human skin is actually just very dark pink, where the pigmentation is so strong that it appears brown, in various shades and depths.
It's why I always use 'flesh' skin tone paints as a base, even when painting figures portraying non-Caucasian ethnicities.
All people are full of blood, and it's the red blood beneath the skin that gives all human beings an essentially pinkish hue.
Same with elephants, evidently ;)
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Basically I think you are right lol
Similarly 'black' human skin is actually just very dark pink, where the pigmentation is so strong that it appears brown, in various shades and depths.
It's why I always use 'flesh' skin tone paints as a base, even when painting figures portraying non-Caucasian ethnicities.
All people are full of blood, and it's the red blood beneath the skin that gives all human beings an essentially pinkish hue.
Same with elephants, evidently ;)
Finally someone listens!
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Finally someone listens!
I always listen to you, Peder :D
Now, here is something to ride through your Rohirrim village and lay waste to it...
After a bit of a hiatus working on some other stuff, I've now finished my troop of wargs :)
These are essentially just heavily pimped versions of the Oathmark wargs and riders.
The wolf faces are brilliant and fun to paint. But the combination of largely hairless bodies and 'feathery-looking' manes and tails just didn't sit right with my vision of shaggy, disreputable giant wolves.
So they had a good shave followed by an almost complete overcoat of Green Stuff. I've also swapped the heads around between the bodies, and altered the attitude of a couple of them a bit further by raising their front or hind quarters on the groundwork.
The figures are more or less the Oathmark goblin riders (one metal, five plastic) with a few bits and pieces of kitbashing here and there on the plastics, and fur capes added from Green Stuff.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-160321115115-507101057.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-160321115115-507122112.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-160321115115-507111993.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-160321115839.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-160321115115-507081514.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-160321115115-507091219.jpeg)
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Love the colors, the extra fur and the pose variations! The wolves are not the best sculpts in the Oathmarke range, but You improved them a lot.
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A powerful bunch of wolf-riders. Great conversions and paintjobs to match. Nicely done.
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Great work as usual mate. The greenstuff work on the Wargs really pays off, they look much how I imagine them.
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Excellent, Richard! And these mutts are welcome to throw themselves at the pallisades of Everburg (my Rohan settlement).
...What a lovely scenario, really, seeing a pack of war overrunning the settlement scoring victory points by goring civilians left and right till the cavalry arrives...
Very ambitious to re-robe the wolves completely, but it certainly paid off! I have been a bit hesitant purchase the Oathmark wargriders because of the somewhat mixed reviews of the wolves.
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They certainly look hatefully aggressive 8)
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Those are excellent- as the others have said, the texturing adds a lot to the figures and your paint jobs are great. I like the other kitbashed parts too, like the replacement heads and helmets on some of the riders.
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Nicely pimped 8)
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TotesUberBalls ;D
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Great work on the wargs Richard, the fur is excellent
:)
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My goodness!
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Lovely work Richard :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
The Warg second from the right in last picture looks decidedly happy, what has he just eaten :D
Looks as happy as a dog with its head out of a car window ;D
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Great painting as always :)
As others have said you've really taken the otherwise lacklustre Oathmark wolves to another level.
That said, I still think the GW Fell Wargs and Fenrisian wolves are better and more dynamic.
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Thanks all :)
The Warg second from the right in last picture looks decidedly happy, what has he just eaten :D
Looks as happy as a dog with its head out of a car window ;D
He does look like he's smiling doesn't he? lol
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Well, after a considerable hiatus in which I've been a bit busy with all things ECW, I've finally finished my second batch of kitbashed Haradrim...
Assembled, as explained somewhere way up above, with bits from about 20 different plastic kits... ::)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-170621161559-5178054.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-170621161905.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-170621161559-517811600.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-170621161559-51782221.jpeg)
Here they are with their earlier brothers in arms...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-170621161559-517791501.jpeg)
And with their pet Oliphaunt...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-170621161558-51777533.jpeg)
Just one more Mumakil to go (nearly finished) and then I'm done with these, and back onto more orcs and trolls...
And when my Victrix Normans arrive - Men of The West!!! 8)
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Fantastic stuff!
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Shiny 8)
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Really good work 👍
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Looking good!
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Perfect Haradrim.
Would you paint one or two with red paint on their cheeks?
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Thanks lads.
Perfect Haradrim.
Would you paint one or two with red paint on their cheeks?
Oooh. I don’t know, Nick. Was that a thing in the books? I’ve tried to stick to Tolkien’s description as far as poss - black and red clothing, yellow shields, black serpent symbol, brazen armour (IIRC), brown skin… There’s not a huge amount to go on… I may have missed the warpaint reference :)
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Fantastic looking bunch of Haradrim :)
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Yeah, it's something that stuck with me from when I first red it. I imagined the Haradrim from that time as Pauline Baynes characters with painted Red Cheeks.
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"'More Men going to Mordor,' he [Gollum] said in a low voice. 'Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before... They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes. Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look. Almost as bad as Orcs, and much bigger. Sméagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end..."
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Perfect. Red face paint it is on the next ones - the Mumakil crew!
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Yeah, it's something that stuck with me from when I first red it. I imagined the Haradrim from that time as Pauline Baynes characters with painted Red Cheeks.
Those pics aren't Haradrim, they're a Calormene from the Narnia books!
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Brilliant, Captain B.!
-Michael
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Outstanding! They look fantastic! The black clothing's beautifully handled, in particular. Do you have any particular plans for gaming with them? I see they're in a Rampantish dozen.
"'More Men going to Mordor,' he [Gollum] said in a low voice. 'Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before... They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes. Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look. Almost as bad as Orcs, and much bigger. Sméagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end..."
A crucial bit of info on Orcs size in there - and Gollum's all too familiar with the Uruks of Mordor. If memory serves, that observation of Gollum's is not too far from the discovery of the "place of awful feast and slaughter" - where Orcs have been feasting on Men of Gondor. (It's not the size of the dog in the fight, etc. ...)
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Very, very nice painting and kit bashing :-*
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Those pics aren't Haradrim, they're a Calormene from the Narnia books!
I know, I didn't say they wus. lol I'm just saying what image I had of what the Haradrim looked like in my head, back in the early days of my JRRT interest.
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I know, I didn't say they wus. lol I'm just saying what image I had of what the Haradrim looked like in my head, back in the early days of my JRRT interest.
I loved those illustrations as a kid. All the swords looked like long pins.
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I'm sure I read somewhere that Tolkien very much approved of Pauline Baynes' illustrations of his works (https://www.paulinebaynes.com/?what=artifacts&cat=70) - so one might imagine that the Calormenes are not a million miles from the Haradrim. Her Farmer Giles of Ham stuff is brilliant - and there's some Middle Earth stuff from Bilbo's song that can't be found online (or is beyond my powers of Googling ...).
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Gordon Bennet as they used to say! :-* :-* :-*
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I'm sure I read somewhere that Tolkien very much approved of Pauline Baynes' illustrations of his works (https://www.paulinebaynes.com/?what=artifacts&cat=70) - so one might imagine that the Calormenes are not a million miles from the Haradrim. Her Farmer Giles of Ham stuff is brilliant - and there's some Middle Earth stuff from Bilbo's song that can't be found online (or is beyond my powers of Googling ...).
I've got that. Though I bought it recently from a 2nd Hand book shop.
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I've got that. Though I bought it recently from a 2nd Hand book shop.
It's got a nice illustration of some orcs in red armour, if I remember correctly.
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It's got a nice illustration of some orcs in red armour, if I remember correctly.
As does her rendition of the map; which incidentally I recreated on my wall in my bedroom age 12(very forgiving parents of an artistic bent).
And brilliant kit bashing Richard.
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Cheers Guy :)
Outstanding! They look fantastic! The black clothing's beautifully handled, in particular. Do you have any particular plans for gaming with them? I see they're in a Rampantish dozen.
Indeed. Dragon Rampant is the plan :)
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Those pics aren't Haradrim, they're a Calormene from the Narnia books!
^ Brilliant
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These Southrons are just beautiful, Richard. The freehand snake especially. Very expressive
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:) Thanks Peder.
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Master of kitbashing. War of Roses, orcs, Haradrim... all superb.
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Oh dear. You already make me feel inadequate in WW2 and historicals - do you have to go and get into fantasy too?
lol lol
I feel that way with almost anything people post here.
Great work on those Orcs. They are very evocative of a lot of the Tolkien artwork from the 80's.
Still wanting to see you do one in the chain dungarees. :D
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Thanks gents :)
The second jumbo is on its way, then it’s back to orcs - and my Victrix Normans have arrived too. Joy :)
Still wanting to see you do one in the chain dungarees. :D
Ah yes, that Minifigs ME orc, circa 1974, with the scimitar, pointy hat, and chainmail flared culottes jumpsuit lol
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Finished painting the second Oliphaunt...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621150518-51911120.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621150518-519371734.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621150518-519392081.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621150519-519401906.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621150518-519382009.jpeg)
Here's the pair of pachyderms...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621151011-519411585.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621151011-51944312.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621151011-519451415.jpeg)
And that's the Haradrim contingent complete :)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621151011-519431991.jpeg)
Now it's back to the second lift of Uruk-Hai...
I'll leave you with Gollum's opinion...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/51/577-290621151011-519422160.jpeg)
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Both of them look great, I love the colors!
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Brilliant 8)
You just need some large walls for them to siege against now :D
By the by, which font have you used there?
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It’s ’Chiller’. Standard Microsoft typeface.
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Stunning work on them Richard :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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That is jolly nice
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Those elephants and howdahs are amazing. Really great work on them!
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Ooooh!
Lovely Phanties, Riccardo, and those Haradrim certainly look the business.
:-* :-*
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It’s ’Chiller’. Standard Microsoft typeface.
Thanks :)
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A beautifully painted collection Richard...the eyes on the elephants... :-* :-*
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Excellent work!
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Thanks lads.
Today, I shall build some more Uruk-Hai, hybridising the new Victrix Normans with the Oathmark goblins ;D
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Fantastic!
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I concur - marvellous thread!
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Thank you :)
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Great work. It will be interesting to see what you can do with the Normans. I’ve started fiddling with a sprue to see how they might work, they look to be pretty versatile and will mix with the Saxons too.
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Wow. Catching up on all the posts I missed since February and I'm blown away. Your painting makes me want to paint more and quit altogether in equal measure, its so vibrant! The Haradrim are especially fantastic!
I'm definitely going to have to bookmark your paint recipe for the elephants, I know strictly speaking that doing my own all grey wasn't realistic, but it felt fine at the time. Yours has a much better look with that hint of brown, the hint of realism really sells it. Plus I love the extra yokes you've put up there like the rope and saddle bags, I'm definitely going to have go to town on my next one I paint as I love that kit anyway, but that just pushes it to another level!
Same with the oathmark wolves, I love the kit but your extra work really sells them as amazing miniatures.
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Really enjoying your take on the Haradrim: glorious colours, great shields and that historical-but-fantasy feel created by meshing all those different kits together. Lovely work.
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That's very kind, thanks gents :)
Right then, here's the next lift of kitbashed Uruk-Hai.
These are essentially the new Victrix Normans, mainly with Oathmark Goblin heads, Green Stuff hair and pointy ears, and Norman helmets plonked on top.
One of the bodies is an Oathmark Goblin. There are a few other bits and pieces in there as well, and shields from all over the place.
The Victrix Norman figures are simply fantastic. I'll be using them in due course for my Gondorian and allied forces. Can't wait for the cavalry :-*
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-030721150750-520367.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-030721150750-52035999.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-030721150750-520281521.jpeg)
Once painted, these new boys will join the previous six, shown below...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/577-190121120454-500661588.jpeg)
Which will give me a round dozen for Dragon Rampant :)
Just six more orc archers and two more trolls to be done after that, and that'll be the Tolkien dark forces completed...
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Wow, awesome! The paintjob is great! Not too harsh and comic-like, but still colorful, I love it.
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Those are awesome! You’ve made the parts look quite natural together and the painted ones look great.
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Looking good :)
Not that you need more plastic kits considering your extensive 'library', but Wargames Atlantic previewed a partial image of a render that looks to be migration period Frankish warriors. I suspect they would look pretty good with the furs and such, I'll likely use them for my orc project.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/4060-030721175352.jpeg)
Unfortunately they would be several months out on release (maybe fortunately, I have too much to do anyway ;) )
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As BZ said great use of colour nothing OTT.
Love the helmet choices as well Richard.
Wargames Atlantic previewed a partial image of a render that looks to be migration period Frankish warriors.
Ooooo they look like they could be useful for a whole number of different uses 8)
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Brilliant kitbashing as usual mate! Great work on the hair and the long pointed ears. The quality on the latest Victrix kits has been amazing.
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Thanks all :)
Not that you need more plastic kits considering your extensive 'library', but Wargames Atlantic previewed a partial image of a render that looks to be migration period Frankish warriors. I suspect they would look pretty good with the furs and such, I'll likely use them for my orc project.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/4060-030721175352.jpeg)
Thanks Matt. They look useful. Definitely 'orcish'. Although they look quite similar in style to the original Gripping Beast plastic Viking and Saxon sets (which I've also used extensively in my orc-bashing).
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They are great richard :-* :-* :-*
So how many LOR figures are you going to do?
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These are fab. I’ve got a hankering for those Normans, but no real desire to do a historical project so might pinch some ideas from here!
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Thanks Rory :)
They are great richard :-* :-* :-*
So how many LOR figures are you going to do?
Cheers Colin.
Once these 6 Uruks are painted I will have:
12 x Isengard Uruk-Hai
12 x Mordor orcs
6 x Mordor orc bowmen
12 x Haradrim
2 x Mumakil
6 Isengard Warg riders
3 x Cave Trolls (2 in progress at present)
That will leave me with just 6 more Mordor orc bowmen to kitbash and paint. Should be around the right size force for Dragon Rampant, with a bit of flexibility built in.
Then I'll move onto the Men of the West... Probably about the same sized force. Gondor, Rohan, rangers, allies... Possibly with a few elves thrown in. A lot more kitbashing 8)
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Cool conversions, looks like Wargames Atlantic will be releasing their Goblins soon so even more cool bits becoming available!
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Thanks Timmy. I shall look out for those then :)
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Here's the second crew of Uruk-Hai painted...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-120721162526-52148380.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-120721162526-521471416.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-120721162526-521452186.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-120721162526-52146375.jpeg)
And the completed company, Isengard's finest... Or worst...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-120721162526-521441983.jpeg)
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Very nice, inspiring figs here. I really like the human character of these orcs!
Thanks
n
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A fantastic bunch, lovely conversions and paintjobs as always.
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Damn, that's another great lookin' bunch.
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Looking great :-* :-* :-*
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So much to like in one thread...choice of plastics...skin tones...and those hand painted shields
:-* :-* :-* :-*
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Lovely job on these. Wouldn’t want to meet them on a dark night, or even with a dark knight ;)
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Thanks gents :)
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Absolutely tremendous! I like the guy with the broad-bladed sword raised most of all: the quintessence of Isengard!
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They look great. Like they have just walked out of Pauline Baynes picture :)
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They’re excellent conversions and look great painted. I hope there are more underway!
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Thanks :)
I've painted two more of the sumptuous Atlantis Miniatures 'orcs' which I'm going to be using as trolls for the purposes of my Tolkienesque force of evil. (See page 15 of this thread for the first of them).
No kitbashing involved here, just clean up, paint and base. Super figures, they look absolutely nothing like orcs to me, but being about 45mm tall and very chunky, they serve brilliantly as trolls alongside my 28mm kitbashed orcs.
Here are the two new additions, who must be Tom and Bill, since the first one was Bert ;)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-260721134245-52265941.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-260721134246-52267659.jpeg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-260721134246-52266177.jpeg)
Here's Tom, Bert and Bill all together, on the lookout for a meal of mutton...
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/52/577-260721134246-522682126.jpeg)
I've got three more of these fellows (all different), but for the purposes of Dragon Rampant, I think a unit of three is probably sufficient? So maybe I'll ship the other three on...
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Cracking job Richard
What size are these big beasts
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Great work Richard, they really look the part :)
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Cracking job Richard
What size are these big beasts
...being about 45mm tall and very chunky...
:D
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Most excellent 8)
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Interesting troll choice, great paintjob!
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Cracking stuff :-*
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Love' em...
But only if I'm on your side lol
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Ooooh!
Aint they butch?
And very nicely turned out too, Riccardo.
:-* :-*
I've got three more of these fellows (all different), but for the purposes of Dragon Rampant, I think a unit of three is probably sufficient? So maybe I'll ship the other three on...
Well, if you have the one with the big hammer I would be more than willing to do a 'swapsies' with you for summink?
:) ;)
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Thanks all :)
Ooooh!
Aint they butch?
And very nicely turned out too, Riccardo.
:-* :-*
Well, if you have the one with the big hammer I would be more than willing to do a 'swapsies' with you for summink?
:) ;)
Gracias Pablo.
I’m still in two minds, but if I decide not to paint the other three, then you can of course have him gratis. Having just painted a couple of them, I’m not full of enthusiasm to do more right now, but I might feel differently in a while. Depends whether a unit of six is really useful or required TBH. It feels like a lot of trolls! lol
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Have two units of three! You can’t have too many Trolls :D
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great stuff...
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Thanks all :)
Gracias Pablo.
I’m still in two minds, but if I decide not to paint the other three, then you can of course have him gratis. Having just painted a couple of them, I’m not full of enthusiasm to do more right now, but I might feel differently in a while. Depends whether a unit of six is really useful or required TBH. It feels like a lot of trolls! lol
Whatever you decide to do with them I would be happy, trust me.
I could never complain at seeing you colouring them in, after all.
:)
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They look terrific!
Have two units of three! You can’t have too many Trolls :D
One option might be to modestly convert the other three (adding bucklers, hammers and some scaliness) to produce some Olog-hai.
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As I am building an kitbash LOTR orc army, I think I have to follow this thread ;)
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Great looking trolls. And 45mm is a good size - neither too large, nor too small to look impressive on the tabletop.
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Thanks fellows :)
Yes, they look just the right size to me 8)