Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Macrossmartin on May 30, 2020, 11:26:09 AM
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Bravo Six's thread sparked memories of a similar project of my own from a few years back. I thought I might share some of it here, in the hope it might spark some ideas, be they in my little grey cells or your own. :)
Called Glory Deep after a particularly bloody battle of the 2nd Tasman Sea War (read on), this was meant to be my tribute to Gerry Anderson's Marionation series Stingray.
A great debt is also owed to John Treadaway and his much more authentic Stingray game:
http://www.salute.co.uk/games/stingray/graphics/index.htm (http://www.salute.co.uk/games/stingray/graphics/index.htm)
Introductions over, let's get into the setting of Glory Deep...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cMMEzWHGU-27JeapLCuDLwZDmePfn38bfnxVC5vdsgXfZMy_gsNQkWteKY-qAUrnucXHVxhnSKDvj2qWq607LIEQuTcoo_GMQT0zzQeSBeYw5L0d1xF9sBvXE3FU0wz_cNMzp2FkTwwPBHMFohNrfZ=w629-h248-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Since the 2020’s, humanity has been in retreat from the destruction caused by rising sea levels. Today, almost a century after the last ice sheets melted from the poles, billions have perished, entire nations have been displaced, and the threat of unrest, starvation and disease still hangs over the world.
Confronted with a planet-wide crisis, in 2045 the United Nations re-purposed itself into the World Government. Its singular objective was the survival of the human species, through the equitable distribution of resources and the enforcement of treaty obligations for the resettlement of environmental refugees; the hundreds of millions who had become known as simply ‘The Tide’.
With living space exorbitantly rare, desperate people took their fates into their own hands and united to establish offshore and seabed city-states. Many of them prospered, and with their prosperity they found the courage — and arms — to fight for their independence. At the same time, a race of opportunistic, aquatic aliens made 'first contact' with humanity, and proceeded to lay claim to a great swathe of the Atlantic Ocean!
To contain these and other dangers, the World Government created HORN (Human Oceans Resource Navy), equipping it with the newest and most deadly weapons ever unleashed in naval warfare: Subfighters. These 200 tonne, ultra-fast submarines carry a crew of 3 to 5, and are capable of unleashing volleys of lethal, super-cavitating torpedoes or deadly blue/green lasers. With their Subfighters, HORN held the line against the invaders' equally dangerous Terrorsharks. The first Atlantic War ended in an uneasy truce.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e0oZJfWcPRKXs2qoMFAdQLJgB5BOtlxCGrNFi7NrpMQ4fnX5FNsoIGm4kO9vz4EvopsStbjas105HwARkUK7d8F_C19pX3Or-f85CzZZ3smJ9ZwgEqvnGxYGhjIhjAwBhsvOCiumEI9vhOm7WaYHjo=w1000-h720-no?authuser=0)
Years later, off the drowned coast of Australia the denizens of Tasmantis — a subsurface continental shelf beneath the Tasman Sea — united against all threats to defend their hard-won aqua-farms and seacorn fields. The World Government moved to establish control, seizing crops for distribution and attempting a disastrous invasion of New Zealand. Driven underground, the Tasmantians responded with ORCA (Oceanic Revolutionary Committee for Action). With a handful of early Subfighters and converted civilian submarines, ORCA have become a poisonous thorn in the side of the Government, threatening Humanity's unity with their subversive campaign for freedom.
This is the story of the ongoing struggle between HORNET (HORN Eastern Trident) and ORCA. Will Tasmantis give up its bounty to help feed the starving billions? Or will it be a new shot heard around the world, sparking a global revolution? We will find out in Glory Deep, 50 fathoms down where heroes lie...
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Right then, with the fluffy stuff out of the way, let's move on to the actual Subfighters! There's a sailor's salty story about how these found-object builds came about, so pull up a bollard and let me tell 'e a tale...
Some of you might remember this all from a brief appearance on another forum many moons ago. I ask that you don't spoil it for those coming new to the story. ;)
A few years ago I made the considerable personal error of being convinced into a managerial role with a certain retailer of products intended to remove follicles from the faces of fellows. I say 'error' when I mean 'blunderous incapacity to recollect how little Australian retail companies appreciate the concept of 'a fair day's work for a fair day's pay.' ::)
On one of the many not-particularly-fair, unpaid days I endured in this role, I had reason to rummage about in my store's storage room, in search of lost stock, dust, and the brains of upper management types. But instead, I found that the store's previous boss had left behind a couple of boxes of old, used, and now unloved shavers, trimmers, and other electrical odds and sods. At first I thought to throw out the lot, for they were sufficiently aged and non-functional to discredit any claim they once had to being of value.
But hang on a mo'…
On closer inspection - couldn't that be a space-shippy sort-of-shape…?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e8lfryI317N2M542gNg8vtVO5JGtB3sgnCZkcWaaWY8O1p9bYxlfIVC2Z7I5W30DVyQlfzgCPgsXBjLwG8pXHh1ohsxo_FmMZqwo72LZdRm9sLgBoZc5vJp2vIl95Hs_1r6wdN4FcbTckxokeXtyfn=w800-h630-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Or maybe, given it almost looks shark-like, I wonder if I could use it —
— and right then is when it hit me. Oh my goodness, I was looking at a whole fleet of futuristic submarines, in a grotty cardboard box!
And not just submarines, either; if that's not the centrepiece of an underwater metropolis, I'm no sci-fi modeller!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fgX7awwV1EGMoHPkDAsrmjt2IUMpH3Nxx_qFVYTQv4AJvXccVA28xbZagK4DWJc274MEJqpdAp7E5fI98LRGC4zUnonYcoIFyLCs9vsS57XbFqzqDMFyyqAiJu4aLvqIM3PDnLEX8wK1AxhX7yFy-w=w567-h474-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
"So," thought I, "should I turn these into a bit of a nostalgic tribute to Gerry Anderson's Stingray?"
In truth, others have done Stingray games long before me. Most of them have been pretty simple concept-wise - Stingray and other WASP (World Aquanaut Security Patrol) supersubs verses the Terrorfish of Titanica. But, visually, they are brilliant, fantastic looking things, real 'blast from the past' stuff, and very worthy tributes to Anderson's fertile imagination.
Also, it would be more than a little work (to put it mildly,) to convert any of these into a 'proper' Stingray, as seen in the 60's Supermarionation show. That's when the idea gelled - rather than slavishly follow the original material, do a game set in an Anderson-verse-like setting, but with a modern, post-climate change apocalypse spin. All the world is fleeing to the ocean floors, and they are the new battlegrounds.
Right then, now to see what we can make of our box of clapped-out cranium croppers. Taking a look at the Braun shavers I'd picked out for the role of the Manta 'hero' Subfighters I decided that they'd look a lot more like 'the business' without windows; something I never much liked about the design of the original Stingray was her huge, glass windows.
Why such dislike? Well, with a Dad who spent much of his life making things that hunt real submarines, a young Martin was quick to take an interest in machines that go 'ping!' beneath the waves. I thus knew from an early age that sheets of glass and unequal pressures don't make for happy endings.
In fact, from an ergonomic standpoint, it could be argued that windows are a terrible mistake in a submarine, due to the tendency of humans to rely on ‘eyeball mk I’ when trying to spot something to shoot at (or avoid something that’s doing the shooting). Humans are woeful at seeing in the dark, so if it’s pitch black outside, (and it is at 400 metres down), you’ll only waste precious seconds trying to see the torpedo that sonar is screaming is coming right for you.
I imagine that the cockpit of the Manta is hidden beneath layers of armour and pressure hull, the crew relying on sonar, enhanced video and blue/green laser rangefinders to 'view' the surrounding ocean.
Time to take this apart, methinks.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dbcG8irs0cl_cRuV8dAeBRwtMmeszQP50eYzpX1zR6n_tLo7bhuaXUw3_3tEwJid0uy1ZKM3Sh7pL2vV1fP7h72PNqSQ7Nq2Qts3JkLsk6gvzPATyXuO7Oqjs-gl2eanbaq5M2QprxEffMDzh3Tnmc=w800-h630-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Most of this type of shaver disassembles with the application of a screwdriver. Out come the gubbins, leaving a thin, light shell of plastic, but there is this big layer of rubber that provides a grip… I thought of leaving it as a kind of anechoic coating, but I knew it wouldn't fool anyone, and might hint at the bristle-blasting origins of the ship, so it had to come off. But, blades wouldn't do much, because the rubber tore when I attempted to peel it from an incision, leaving most of itself stuck to the smooth plastic beneath. What to do?
Knowing I was taking a risk, (one of being left with a puddle of rubber and plastic, rather than a sleek guardian of the depths,) I had a crack at gently heating the rubber with a heat gun. Lo and behold, off the rubber came! With practice, I was soon de-rubbering the shavers in moments, revealing hard, black plastic. Whay-hey! Time to scratch that scratch-building itch!
Because this game is inspired by Gerry Anderson's shows, I consciously decided that I would try to build my fleet of subs entirely from found objects or recycled things. (Do you know how many toothpaste tube caps they went through on those shows?)
Plastic card I had in quantity… and some cheap half-ovoid 'bling' craft shapes would come in handy...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dShjYCtrVqqni-hpm17qNFX5byRjMRaAkURV3cC4aHW04gVcfFCiwUxx841VTQq04KHwnnHjq0aPpHEarltaUkg7xLTWg-VxttulSPtvkIvRHK40tzdm7sg-G1q35b1ZeYuLmdRaggKlDBENfraUFA=w800-h630-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
At the back of the original Stingray there's this big, clear shape, usually referred to as the Ratemaster. It spins around, showing the folk in TV land that the motor is working, while looking for all the world like some tap fitting. Try as I might, nothing in my bits box, nor in various $2 shops, revealed a suitable object to mimic this role on my Mk V Stingrays. But then I noticed that a Lego wheel was a suitably interesting shape...
A plastic hemisphere from an animal stamp pad went on one end, mounted to a round-shouldered 30mm figure base, and the tail cone came from the end of a multi-colour pen. The hemisphere is to give the impression that the Ratemaster is able to swivel about on its mounting, greatly improving the manoeuvrability of the Mark V.
Moving amidships, the back of the command section (actually the pop-up bit that houses the trimmer) got its 'saw tooth' grips ground off and sanded smooth, but the ones at the front of the section remained. I like the look of them, they suggest a spoiler-like feature.
The fins and hydroplanes were simply cut from plastic card, although I was picky enough to give them a taper, by cutting two pieces for each, adding a spacer at the root, and filling and sanding the leading edge. (These took longer than they deserved…)
Lots of putty to blend in the fins on the command section, and then sand, sand, sand...
The hydroplanes are mounted on cheap (how I love that word) acrylic craft gems, which I found in a craft shop for $1.50 a pack. Perfect. On to the painting.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fU9CNAe2-pO57Jvg0EdqXEU-TYYKbsXx_tl-Ur3292HOmJl3GQIq5aNXzaXRSPPhZQqROLpiWHROukv7vhDLmOR-cCBLVzMHMjArd_WCBg7OwX-3N9fGY9obKAUPNtVePhGyoAr-IFrUbCwVpJZGI4=w800-h660-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Tamiya and Gunze Sangyo colours, thinned with GP thinners, and shot through my Iwata Revolution. I didn't want to attempt the exact colour scheme from the original Stingray - finding the right line to mask the yellow and blue areas is a terror without equal. So I opted for a simplified scheme that reflected the original colours, and I'm pleased with the resulting shapes.
To paint the yellow, by the way, I first sprayed a second undercoat mixed from a base of Royal Grey with a few drops of Tamiya Clear Orange. This gave me a warm brown-grey colour, which kept the yellow topcoat from turning green from the blue layer beneath. This also meant I could spray the yellow in a single coat, avoiding the dreaded build-up of paint on the masked edges.
Weathering lines were achieved by simply masking lines with Tamiya tape, and applying black weathering powder on one edge, feathering it away from the tape. Remove tape, repeat until all panels done. Immediately spray with gloss varnish.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e2sSmUuaTL3WLnA3lMnILFNX2cLfsGPs9mdoFm7bNDVJJ0zNG7nhOrOKH7wC5nLlyasWBf3F6GRD5wYRl04i6Z1nik41aDh2crHKI34P1VDTx1jROjJtI4Jz_LRchOlXfeIUUfbHwg-PLjKDK1hXEk=w900-h660-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Lastly, I made up some simple decals in Adobe Illustrator, and printed them out.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c3mIJuvpIIuNsiWfv6sXLB1UHEZ5JtNP93N7KaITJXSZi9iD8Uj2Cyl5l2OaLu5NIA0uKW2I918-LA_gQ6F-raMiILh-C_myyjymmZR-qTtkZEHx7sn_Wx_pbVcZRzW-9uQeEJS5c9Ku0MjKs1ezIH=w419-h595-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3epI2sIgbsDHfBfktn_w7PeD1A_5F9dcu0M1GpXLpopl7_knioN1uP2jiDPD6HtPKL_bYtHXx5hhIYk1xMdfKB3JZEDndVKtjBS4pjHUceWMcDqng4YZCRKy8Y3zvpypRT1_p0ritRGp0RnY1-OTEWN=w567-h399-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
I've made two Mantas so far, but I have a number of other subfighters on the slips, although they have been there for quite some time. Glory Deep is definitely on ice for the moment; Other projects sounded siren songs louder (and quicker) than this over the years, and off I went in pursuit of the latest, shiny thing.
But I am tempted to revisit Tasmantis, and see if I can revive interest in this idea. I did write some rules for Glory Deep, and they were sufficiently advanced to warrant a couple of test games with cardboard stand-ins.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cw7aLZQ03v9jpGLc4PSmIfZ5yRQH36TdqkQ7yraoAvjXGdEKizSTGMv8jr0bX3dGjSar7s24cI81ll9AuTIetNBwX7FjQw_vj1SGwjFw4j926xnw6EQP2jZKFUPpAgvqlCUHqtpf6rfkJL4Y9gxKeG=w960-h635-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
However, it was a clunky game, with too much detail, and hung up on the balance between super-fast (but loud) movement and the need to 'run silent'. (Everyone just chose to keep schtum!)
But I might revamp it with the aid of the Movement Disc system I've invented for Saucer War One, and see what comes about.
https://miniaturemartin.com/2020/05/01/how-a-tiny-flying-saucer-flies/ (https://miniaturemartin.com/2020/05/01/how-a-tiny-flying-saucer-flies/)
Anyway, I hope you've enjoyed this entirely self-indulgent trip into my half-finished project. If people are interested, I'll post some more stuff, but if not, thanks for taking a look!
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Very cool :)
Love the subfighter build 8)
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Martin, that's AWESOME! :o Thanks for posting this. What a great thread. Please DO post more.
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You never stop to show up with more awesome projects Martin.
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I’d love to see more of this!
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Absolutely wonderful :) the sleek design really does look like a gerry Anderson model updated :)
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Thanks Martin. I just a TV advert for a micro-shaver and first thing I thought was "Ooooh.... that would make a great subfighter". lol
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Thanks Martin. I just a TV advert for a micro-shaver and first thing I thought was "Ooooh.... that would make a great subfighter". lol
Tee hee! My work here is done. :D
Thanks for the many and encouraging responses, everyone. I'll post some more stuff soon from my earlier builds. Maybe this'll convince me to haul out the box of bits and start sanding plasticard fins once again.
I have wondered about redoing the rules for Glory Deep and releasing them, but I am on the horns of a dilemma there; Should I sculpt and cast miniatures for the game, or encourage others to follow the same route as I, and save various domestic appliances from landfill? Given the global warming catastrophe setting, the latter approach has a nice synergy to it, but could it prove a barrier to entry for those less inclined to cover fingers with putty, plastic dust and no.11 blade cuts?
Opinions, please!
Meanwhile, a preview of things to come...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eVuvLI_58WQJPGxFIVwpxC8Zdvu-fgFhXNnm9zDUOwUWIm3tnqegTAq6aeIUcY3X9yWR-9Dp6n_TgTJm1IIrE5B7ssMB4aS_n_VUcLZ29UeMrVnSdlMYSI6X3hBs0jTJSM6DoU6OtIUeoY8CjyBgU0=w1097-h646-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
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I have wondered about redoing the rules for Glory Deep and releasing them, but I am on the horns of a dilemma there; Should I sculpt and cast miniatures for the game, or encourage others to follow the same route as I, and save various domestic appliances from landfill? Given the global warming catastrophe setting, the latter approach has a nice synergy to it, but could it prove a barrier to entry for those less inclined to cover fingers with putty, plastic dust and no.11 blade cuts?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eVuvLI_58WQJPGxFIVwpxC8Zdvu-fgFhXNnm9zDUOwUWIm3tnqegTAq6aeIUcY3X9yWR-9Dp6n_TgTJm1IIrE5B7ssMB4aS_n_VUcLZ29UeMrVnSdlMYSI6X3hBs0jTJSM6DoU6OtIUeoY8CjyBgU0=w1097-h646-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
That looks so cool!
I like the idea of miniatures, though as a devotee of the smaller scales, I would like to see something around the size of the 1:600 to 1:300 scale popularly used for aerial games. A friend scratch-built me some Stingrays and terror fish a few years ago at about that size, for games based on the Warlords rules.
One problem with shaver type conversions is that you need the raw materials. I’ve never seen one, yet alone have a few to break up for modelling purposes. And more than one type too.
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There is, as you have shown, the option for at least initially card stand-ins.
Other options/choices can develop from that but as Commander Roj suggests, in a small scale perhaps, as many of the possible players might be like me, and lacking in the scratch-build capability department.
and shavers..
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Thanks again for the responses. In truth, I have long suspected that the better approach will be to offer miniatures, and in a smaller scale than the models I've made so far.
I think 50 - 60mm is the biggest I'd want the standard Subfighters to be. Makes them large enough for decent panel lines and details, but no so large that they become an impediment on a 4'x4' table.
That said, here's my trimmer-based build of the Manta's nemesis during the Tasman Sea campaigns; ORCA's Wahaika class Subfighter!
We start with a Remington bikini trimmer, (for trimming bikinis? Whey-hey!) remove the gubbins, and shape some pectoral fins, taking inspiration for the shape from Orcinus orca; the Killer Whale. A Lego wheel will serve as a propeller / turbine thing.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ck0TA9UrMNEc86URmrtCMYvn4_cdqdx0vsd2Df-ejZwKCTffRp9mCZj9jrjtdfdvuPLzUB-4up_xb8YZVGsJxA6nrcx3811uTNQRrnyX28DSdQTdoAltOq4cMf-W2XRYGU2gEQZAhXqt71fbOX1zN4=w567-h509-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Let's add a dorsal fin, (again using Free Willy for inspiration) and blend it to the hull with a little putty:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3civh8rK6V386Y-xAk1m9J3aTbSrRbzjErs0loauATNqceXInMGuwQ6Inxgow1NMm9yU2y5m5Htx6zhhibd0uK4fSISu-EXKe1_sCc5JaQcqOH3xvRiPsqtle90JN-6wU6jmHTs6w3Gs7XlmPetE2Sx=w567-h341-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
From the aft quarter, you can see how the trimmer's comb does an excellent job as a baffle or guide for the propeller's thrust:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c_BiVPaZ_0ZXjsmKZW7UfkwWO9cMssB6VjJodDXQiQTmMh3mj_OMpfvmtFbCsNQ-LFvus2cxZRHNWnYhh_zJptxIS2FjZ9Yv12uEs6kPFsHuuipmN7RWk2jU1-PU9YL2LheHCGRQ_EVCy1pV7F6s1Y=w567-h473-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Looking down from above, and the battery cover serves as the crew hatch, and there's even a cut-out for a searchlight or sensor just in front.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fBM_lrzRie9Vd_J0kJhkZYF-GSfsyKe4ikcnb8uh2hhTc47DVbiQRs2hqcnaI8-0-bVNzBzUc1yso6hqYjexekweYPSsaLPj2TyKwcEX9evK9HgrgluhCcuINEcEfqbAS67ckHjMlFYHERccAKzwkE=w567-h468-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
Let's keep with the Killer Whale theme, and add some suitable colours!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ekQ4HsAdk9Vy9NanlxtSbrx1yMS96eALVxD2zqtSN394eQOk_--AFDCqq5z9V0MXWvphIlayfUUqTcupbmZ7U5wgnZxT-yT5rZPzGlLH8ZSgiTPIeyG3O6P8QbkUJm9NrWDAcyJFQPuTaMT22sPtAa=w567-h420-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cmwxDD9DY4tKKhYVcu_xOemcVx2HcQSAYhoaG91svtV3DShcCoqyt2UUmVp2B-0GvNM8EefOGXd8USarmXMpL6xkilgpCdIAuwLOHX5UPQWbiZEWGAmSqbn7oFpNREVgKDzITjGa72thkdU5_AbOyg=w567-h455-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
The panel shading is again achieved by masking with Tamiya tape, and feathering weathering pastels away from the edge.
Lastly, here's a real-world map of Tasmantis (also known as Zelandia, as described here). It's a pretty big mass of submerged land, with New Zealand topping it as a huge 'mountain range' that extends above the surface of the Pacific. In the world of Glory Deep, it has become a new Atlantis, and is one of the few places on Earth capable of sustaining its own population.
(https://earthsky.org/upl/2017/10/zealandia-expedition-map-NSF-e1506845622336.jpg)
I've written a bit of backstory and setting for the actual Tasmantis campaign, but that's perhaps for another post. Until then, PWOR submarine fans!
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Totally agree that 50-60mm would be the biggest models. If I want say, a Tanker/freighter then I would scratch build that. In fact I have used a Zandris IV Miniatures Embassy Class Assault Carrier for this purpose:
http://z4miniatures.blogspot.com/2007/12/online-shop.html
Orca looks great. I hope you can keep the same design aesthetic if you are able to move to producing miniatures.
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I agree smaller scale miniatures are the way to go.
BUT please do continue with the scratch builds they are very interesting.
I might not have old shavers, but do save (lots of) interesting 'bits'.
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That ORCA is phenomenal! Turned out really well! :o
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very nice
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I've written a bit of backstory and setting for the actual Tasmantis campaign, but that's perhaps for another post
Oh I DO like me a good backstory! Looking forward to that!
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I’m really looking forward to this project! Your work already, is brilliant! The whale paint job on that last ship is amazing, and the original ship DOES have that Gerry Anderson feel! Fantastic all! :-*
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This is truly inspirational, a great example of the scratch builders art :o
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While sitting in my secret, underwater condo watching the fish shoaling above the Challenger Plateau, 500m below the Tasman Sea, I found myself ruminating over the direction I want to take Glory Deep.
In spite of my own desire to release a range of miniatures for Glory Deep (although that'd be next year at the earliest), it makes me oddly uncomfortable. Let me explain my discomfort...
If you've been reading from the start of this thread, you'll know I dreamed up Glory Deep as a tribute to Gerry Anderson's Stingray. When I was a kid, I always felt inspired by the Supermarionation shows because they looked like something I could do, with a pile of old Airfix kits, railway modelling scenery, and an uncommonly large collection of toothpaste caps.
That's not a snide criticism of the Anderson FX team and modellers; it is proof that they understood their audience perfectly, because in many ways they were indulging their inner child, building the toys they always wanted.
Making the Manta and Wahaika satisfied my own inner kid in a way that just buying and painting a stock miniature does not. I'm sure you can relate. Looking at your own collection, would I be right in thinking you take the greatest pride in the stuff you converted, personalised, customised, or build from scratch? The stuff that is uniquely yours?
That's one reason why I am uncomfortable with pumping out yet another range of niche sci-fi miniatures. As proud as I might be of my achievement, its not a pride other gamers could share. :(
The other reason I have already alluded to; landfill. There's a frightening amount of plastic crap that pours into our oceans by the hour. You could literally build a bridge from Alaska to Japan if you could gather all the plastic in the Pacific for the purpose. (Now that's what I call scratchbuilding!)
As a hobby, wargaming contribute a laughably small amount to the world junkpile. But, contribute it does. So, what if we actively reduced that contribution by sparking an enthusiasm amongst ourselves to make cool gaming models out of household plastic refuse? Sounds like a win-win to me!
BUT—! As has been pointed out earlier in this thread; Not everyone is a crazy, glue-sniffing modelling fiend. Saying 'do it yourself' can be an act of exclusion for some gamers, and that's not a good thing. So, is there a happy middle-ground between elitist, planet-saving scratchbuilding and inclusive, dolphin-killing miniature production?
Well, how about this for an idea...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dUGrW06jMNCxrros8QkGDgFr_HO7DUhkmx41zmtm27SXvCjGEfx3xCKCcxrkpYjnscYFxHGMudNoIA2cRS5swPeX6wzQH2vEIsyEBn2EU8qvMSr-xzOTULQiNYjhtYIdM_fVW7qte-PS_JC_BX4-wM=w1100-h681-no?authuser=0?.jpg)
So, a series of resin cast components that can be glued to conveniently submarine-shaped containers and appliances stolen saved from bathroom cabinets, under kitchen skinks, and the Girl Scouts' recycling drive.
I could sculpt a series of fins, conning towers, bolt-on weapons and sonars, podded water turbines, etc. with these, players would be free to match such parts to their salvaged item of choice, and make the super-submarines of their dreams.
This sketch shows a shampoo bottle, but anything of almost any size could serve the same purpose. Deodorant roll-ons, computer mouses, pill bottles, soap cases, toothbrushes, cigar tubes, pens, Pez dispensers, flashlights, egg-timers, etc, etc!
Marine Max? Or the Waterworld we should have had?
The thing is though, not everyone has access to the same pool of deodorants, or defunct shavers, or whatever. Therefore, there's going to be an acute lack of standardisation between any two Glory Deep fleets. That suggests to me a less-organised, less-civilised setting then I've imagined. But in many ways, I'm okay with that, because I think I'll get a real kick out of seeing what craziness gamers will stick together!
So, that's the very start of the path I think I'm now following. What do you think of this idea?
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Sounds like an awesome idea! If you need some parts 3d sculpted you know where to find me. :D
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Sounds like an awesome idea! If you need some parts 3d sculpted you know where to find me. :D
I'll probably take you up on that. ;)
I think it'll give greater variety if I have more sculptors than just myself turning out bits and pieces.
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I am loving where you are going with this.
Please note that I have been preparing 'Interesting bits'
in my garage for over a decade now.
To be fair to me I have used some of it, even got the kids
at school (pre Lock-Down) interested. Each was given some
old CDs (to be used as a bases) & free reign with two boxes
of said 'interesting bits'. I expected them to have a couple
of weeks to work their creative geniuses. They have now had
a couple of months, & counting. Hope they have not wasted
the time.
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A bit like plastic Gaslands sprues. My only concern is that we might end up with much larger subs, and more storage space. There would seem to be less, smaller containers in the size range we were talking about.
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A bit like plastic Gaslands sprues. My only concern is that we might end up with much larger subs, and more storage space. There would seem to be less, smaller containers in the size range we were talking about.
Very much along the same vibe as Gaslands. I hear you on the point of scale; its that balancing act between big = presence (and easier for less-coordinated fingers) versus small = convenience (cheaper, less playing space).
Offering the parts in different scales would not be impossible, depending on demand. Studio Bergstrom offer my Woomera Shipyards starships in 2 scales to satisfy collectors of FASA and Starline 2500 Trek / SFB ships.
It might be a bit of a popularity contest to determine exactly which scales will work, but the dimensions of suitable found objects will definitely be a governing factor.
That suggests to me that I need to find the disposable plastic object equivalent of a McDonalds Cheeseburger: Something that is universally found and discarded throughout the western world, to act as the 'template' for each submarine of a certain size or class.
I have no doubt there's a lot of things here in Australia which are unique to our consumerist, throwaway society, but I will do some research, and make more Subfighters! :D
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Add on resin parts sounds like a great idea :)
While I agree that its easier to find large containers, leading to larger subs, there are plenty of smaller containers out there.
Off the top of my head:
Lipgloss/lipstick/lipbalm
Gum/tic tac/other candy containers
Caps from markers and pens
Tacs and pins
Step out of the bathroom and look at candy shelves and office supplies instead :)
It might be harders to make bits for these, as they're less standardised in size compared to shampoo bottles, and they might need a bit more gapfilling and putty work, but its possible.
I guess I went from "no problem" to "its possible, but harder" during my post.
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I can make the startling revelation that I have been eyeing certain liquid soap dispenser tops as the source of a fleet of manta-like boats for years, but not got around to it. I will take some photos later of the types I mean, if I can find some. I also have some old sketches of this sort of thing, again, if I can find them...
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Hello, again, Martin!
Some thoughts:
1. I *love* your scratchbuilds. Both the hobby behind them and the philosophy underpinning them speak loudly to me. And, of course, it has the "Rick Priestley classic deodorant bottle hover tank" thing going on.
2. The concept of a subfighter combat game - especially one inspired by Stingray but with a 21st century aesthetic - is brilliant and seems eminently marketable, to me (to some extent, *more* marketable than your Saucer Wars game).
3. The size of the converted/scratchbuilt vessels presents a problem in both marketing and play in that they represent a significant need for storage space when not playing and play space when on the table. Fighter games like Aeronautica, Blood Red Skies and X Wing have been successful - among other reasons - because they've found a scale level that allows the players to utilize a modest table size with tactical aplomb. It's no coincidence that these all have ships of a similar size (if not scale).
4. You admit that the rules you currently have need a lot of work, so I would suggest that you need to take it in one of two directions. Either the source of scratchbuilt minis needs to get smaller (less shampoo bottles and more lip balm sticks) and the large scratchbuilt vessels play a reduced role (or step back to being purely aesthetic projects). Or you need to change the dynamic of the game to make the use of the larger models more thematic - for example, having a game where each player would use only 1-3 models and the amount of actual manoeuvre/movement is relatively limited, whilst "action" occurs "off table" in crew/tech interactions (a little like Space Cadet, for example).
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I love a good sub game!
I do agree with Precinct on some of his thoughts. The Shaver models are ace and look amazing, they are too big for a decent sized game unless it is 1v1, or the shaver models are the "Carriers/Big Boys" while much of the fighting is done by swarms of drones or other smaller scale fighter subs (think Armada style)
If you are going 1v1 then fiddly rules are preferred with lots of small interactions. If they are carriers then your rules scope needs to abstract upwards. I guess my first question is "How big do you want the game to be?"
The second question I have with subgames is always how do you balance maneuver with stealth. The most optimal method to detection is to not move, but a game where both sides just sit on the bottom of the ocean and wait for the other player to move is NOT compelling. How do you force some of this action in your game?
Finally, there is the business side of things.... who will buy this and why will they want to buy it? Is the genre hook enough or do you need something more to your pitch?
I hope this helps because this is a great idea!
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I think you force movement through scenario’s; escort, sweep, transit etc, not knowing what mission the other player draws, and maybe exactly how long you have to do it...
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You could also force movement via fluff. Maybe whatever drove people into subs also caused serious currents, nasty ubderwater monsters, earthquakes.
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That is visionary work! The art in it is as phenomenal as the craftsmanship. I pull my hat to you!
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I can make the startling revelation that I have been eyeing certain liquid soap dispenser tops as the source of a fleet of manta-like boats for years, but not got around to it. I will take some photos later of the types I mean, if I can find some. I also have some old sketches of this sort of thing, again, if I can find them...
I know I have some bigger sketches than the tiny sub picture on the left, under the one marked drone, but you can see why I am looking at this particular soap dispenser. I’ve seen some other similar pumps which might also work very nicely...
https://flickr.com/photos/65020607@N05/sets/72157714567066602
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Hello, again, Martin!
Some thoughts:
1. I *love* your scratchbuilds. Both the hobby behind them and the philosophy underpinning them speak loudly to me. And, of course, it has the "Rick Priestley classic deodorant bottle hover tank" thing going on.
2. The concept of a subfighter combat game - especially one inspired by Stingray but with a 21st century aesthetic - is brilliant and seems eminently marketable, to me (to some extent, *more* marketable than your Saucer Wars game).
3. The size of the converted/scratchbuilt vessels presents a problem in both marketing and play in that they represent a significant need for storage space when not playing and play space when on the table. Fighter games like Aeronautica, Blood Red Skies and X Wing have been successful - among other reasons - because they've found a scale level that allows the players to utilize a modest table size with tactical aplomb. It's no coincidence that these all have ships of a similar size (if not scale).
4. You admit that the rules you currently have need a lot of work, so I would suggest that you need to take it in one of two directions. Either the source of scratchbuilt minis needs to get smaller (less shampoo bottles and more lip balm sticks) and the large scratchbuilt vessels play a reduced role (or step back to being purely aesthetic projects). Or you need to change the dynamic of the game to make the use of the larger models more thematic - for example, having a game where each player would use only 1-3 models and the amount of actual manoeuvre/movement is relatively limited, whilst "action" occurs "off table" in crew/tech interactions (a little like Space Cadet, for example).
Thanks for the thoughts, Omega. I am glad you share my rationale for the recycling angle, as I think it has merit as both an inspiration to revive the art of scratchbuilding which seems on the wane with the floodtide of models, minis and 3D printing now available. (Or am I just fighting against the current?)
However, I'd question the 'marketability' of Glory Deep compared to Saucer War One; Flying saucers have been a universal pop culture icon and a staple of science fiction for 70 years. Future submarines? A couple of old TV shows, and a computer game or three.
The potential is certainly there, but I am realistic about Glory Deep's chances of setting the gaming world alight! :P
I'll suggest that games like Star Wars Armada and Adeptus Titanicus counter your argument regarding model size. The hulking dimensions of their 'hero' models have done nothing to hurt their sales. Both get away with it by diversifying the sizes of different units, leaving the big guys to act as the relatively static 'gunline' while smaller units do the zipping around, darting forward, and getting splatted. Notice how X-Wing has huge units that are almost display models as much as gaming pieces.
It's a question of the reality upon which the game is modelled. If the intent is to portray squadrons of subfighters wheeling and diving in huge, watery dogfights like WW1 fighters, then a small scale is definitely required.
But if the subs come in many sizes, then the big guys become 'battleships' and the smaller ones 'destroyers' and we have WW2 naval action.
Or, if it's more like an infantry skirmish, with just a handful of similarly-sized units per side, then the subs should be relatively big, lest they become little more than 3D chits lost on a vast area of open table.
In truth, I envisioned Glory Deep somewhere between WW1 dogfights and Star Trek ship combat. Few units per side, comparable dimensions and abilities. This seemed realistic, given the tendency of rival weapon systems to copy multiple aspects of each other in the evolution of supremacy. I didn't imagine ORCA as having untold fleets of subs, and HORNET's response would be consummate to that threat.
But at this stage, I think it best to hold off on revision of the game until further research is completed into the practicality and popularity of encouraging the creation of fleets of subs from scrap. If that key concept flies, then the game will be worth pursuing to its conclusion. Glory Deep is nothing without a range of miniatures, or the parts to construct those miniatures. As time in this industry has taught me, real miniature game marketing is just miniatures marketing, with the game a secondary aspect. Notice how a lot of companies offer free rules, but not free miniatures...? ;)
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I know I have some bigger sketches than the tiny sub picture on the left, under the one marked drone, but you can see why I am looking at this particular soap dispenser. I’ve seen some other similar pumps which might also work very nicely...
https://flickr.com/photos/65020607@N05/sets/72157714567066602
Ahh, NOW I see what you're thinking! I'd never thought of that, Roj!
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I found this little piece of background fiction a while ago, just after I began converting things into subfighters and such. It's narrative 'fluff' from a Traveller 2300 fan-made tech article about the Royal Navy in the 2300AD setting. The author was one David Gillon, whom I don't know, but I'd like to thank for the inspiration. Link to said article here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/%7Edheb/2300/Europe/UK/RN/RNSFD.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/%7Edheb/2300/Europe/UK/RN/RNSFD.htm)
It pretty much encapsulates all the 'hard' SF concepts I'd like to blend into Glory Deep; reasonably real-world tech, some AI but with human skill remaining a factor, and battles that go all 'Top Gun' when the sneaky stuff ends.
(Although recent new conversion acquisitions have me planning some more outlandish, alien technologies for a new fleet... more on that soon, I hope!)
Anyway, have a read, and I hope you enjoy it. :)
There's a tremendous peacefulness in the dark of the Southern Ocean's abyssal depths, just hanging there, drifting in the silence of the deep with no lighting but the faintest flickers from the instrument console. The viewscreen was on, but there was no light for the external cameras to see by. If I flicked on the external lights then there would be a few krill even at these depths, maybe one of the stranger denizens of the oceanic bottoms, but external lights don't go with Cat-1 EMCON.
The peacefulness disappeared with the voice in my earpiece.
"Moray Lead, I have a track."
Moray Three had sensor watch while the rest of us tried to sleep. I flicked a switch, dropping their sensor data onto my viewscreen.
"Argie SDV going for a cable tap?" I wondered aloud. Hooking into the Falklands-British Antarctic Territories fibreoptic link was something they tried with monotonous regularity.
"Looks like," Moray Three agreed, but I hadn't been asking his opinion and I hit the alarm to jolt all four of my crews awake.
"Target heading for the cable," I said, "Let's go shake him up and escort him back across the border. Weapons tight, ROE Alpha 2. Tactical spread, 5 klick spacing, follow my lead. Confirm."
I got the confirmations as I pulled my HMD down and checked we had greens right across the board. Lucy was hunched over her tactical display just to my left, locking up all the data that four Narwhal sub-fighters could generate. She gave me a thumbs-up to say that she had the track herself.
"Jettison datalinks," I ordered, "Three, two, one, now."
There was a slight click as the fibre-optic cables linking the four-ship formation into a single forty klick long interferometer dropped free. I'd been after the engineers back on Conqueror to sort that, avoidable mechanical noise was a problem, but it was too late to cry over spilt milk as we accelerated away.
"Lucy, tell me we didn't lose him when we dropped datalink?"
"Still got him," she confirmed, "Thirty klicks and closing. Keep it below fifty KPH and you can get within 15 klicks before he can hear us if he's got the standard sensor kit."
"How do the engines look, Mickey" I asked over the intercom.
"Sweet, Skip," Mickey answered from his lonely seat in the engineering bubble, "I can give you 100 KPH indefinitely if you want it. Gas generator is fully primed, we can supercav on your command."
"Not just yet," I told him, "We might try that when we get a little closer, scare the bejeesus out of our poacher before we escort him back to their side of the border."
"Skipper, I like the way you think."
Some people claim that flying sub-fighters is just like flying one of the skimmers' Sea Furies, but there's a difference in scale and time, our combats are simultaneously more intimate and more prolonged. I sat patiently, watching the range tick slowly down, ready to startle our quarry with evidence of our cleverness.
"Oh, Christ!" Lucy said suddenly as the range fell past sixteen klicks.
Her data dropped onto my HMD even as she spoke. Six more targets, three low, three high, all suddenly heading our way. They had sprung a surprise of their own, but the thing that startled me most was Lucy's reaction. I think it was the first time I'd ever heard her swear.
"Argie Gattos," she snarled as the data firmed up, "We've been suckered."
"Hook, line and sinker," I echoed, "Active datalink, bring up the net."
Even the active datalink's low energy blue-green lasers will scatter enough to give you away, but when the other guy knows where you are the subtleties of stealth are pretty pointless and the datanet would let us share data again.
"Vampire! Vampire! Vampire!" Lucy yelled, "Torpedoes in the water. They just went supersonic and the Gattos are accelerating, gas generators coming on line."
We were at peace, supposedly, but I don't think there's ever been a year the services haven't buried someone in some foreign field. Maybe today it would be my turn to pay the price of peace, but not if I had any choice in the matter.
"Weapons free, switch to active sensors," I ordered as I shoved the throttles to max. Sonar can't track a supersonic torpedo, active LIDAR can, if you don't mind shining a searchlight for anyone to see.
"Decoys away, countermeasures active," Lucy told me, pre-empting my next order.
"Lock them up and get me a shot," I told her. "All Morays, close and engage. Mickey, ULF message to Conqueror, 'under attack'".
That was all I could say, 'need help' was superfluous when help was hours away.
"I've got a shot at the SDV," Lucy said.
"Take it," I ordered, knowing as I said it that it was probably no more than an unmanned drone sent to lure us into the trap. There was a hiss as one of our torpedoes was punched out of the VLS, a momentary fizz as its gas generator sheathed it in the bubbles that let it travel through the water at supersonic speeds, then it was gone.
"Here they come," Lucy muttered as the LIDAR locked up the incoming torps. There were a dozen of them, which meant three at each of us if the Argies had sequenced it right, and the Armada boys were no fools.
"Four of them coming at us," she said. So maybe the Argies were having a bad day, but it didn't make me feel better. "Targets locked."
"Engaging," I said, taking the shot myself, the hull echoing as four interceptors went into the water one after the other. I squeezed again, four more shots to back up the first four.
"Point Defence active" Lucy said, "The Gattos are supercavitating, but subsonic, I have a good paint on the high trio."
"Take them," I said, the hull echoing as heavyweight torpedoes punched out one after the other. Lucy glanced at me and sent a second trio away at my nod. Now wasn't one of those time when it made sense to be frugal with ammo. The other Morays were firing, the Argies started punching out interceptors of their own and suddenly my tactical screen was a mess of incoming and outgoing trails.
"Go super!" I ordered Mickey, hauling the Moray nose high as the gas generator went active and we were suddenly sheathed in bubbles, our drag instantly cut to a fraction of its normal value. Our speed built, dragging us out of the mess of incoming and outgoing fire, but the rattle as our point defence started spewing 20mm super-cavitating shells into the water said that not all of our interceptors had claimed their targets.
"Target crossing high port," Lucy yelled and I snap-turned, gee dragging us down into our seats as our speed crossed 200KPH. A Gatto flashed by close enough to see and I hit the trigger instinctively. Somewhere behind me a cartridge spewed gas explosively into an MHD and a gigajoule of power was dumped into the laser system. The beam linked us and the Gatto for a fraction of a second, water flaring as it flash-boiled, then the Gatto blew, crumpling from one moment to the next as the laser sliced open her pressure vessels.
"That's a kill!" Lucy said, her face washed of colour by the suddenness of violent death.
I was too busy to think about the lives I had just taken, trying to make sense of the fight on my tactical display. Moray 3 and 4 had gone low, taking the second trio, and I could only see one Gatto down there now, but there were two on my tail and I couldn't see Moray 2 at all.
"Mickey, arm the booster!" I ordered, yanking tight the straps on my harness. Lucy gave me a shocked glance, but we were down to last resorts, and the thirty seconds of thrust from the giant firework strapped to our tail would take us supersonic, maybe give us a moment or two outside their sensor lock in which to turn the fight around.
"Read..."
Mickey's voice was cut off by a stunning impact. The kind of force it took to throw a three hundred tonne sub-fighter tumbling through the depths was incomprehensible and for precious seconds I couldn't string two thoughts together. I gathered my scattered wits as the tumble abated, but it left us hanging inverted, the boards flaring the red of critical failures all around me, before failing entirely, leaving us in darkness.
"Luce?" I asked.
There was no answer and I reached into the blackness. I found her helmet by feel, wincing as shards of her visor sliced open my questing fingertips. Sense struck and I reached up to pull the lightstick from its clip under my seat, shook it to set its chemicals to work. The cold blue light never flattered anyone, but it made Lucy look like one of the living dead, eyes rolled back in her skull, blood painted down her face. Her tactical screen was smashed, presumably by the impact of her helmet. Only the barely visible movement of her chest and a low moaning convinced me that she was alive.
"Mickey?" I asked, but there was no reply, not even when I found the sound-powered phone in its clip under the mess that had spilled down onto the overhead console and used that instead.
I was on my own, and the part of me that could think and plan wanted to hide in some dark corner until someone could come and save me, which makes it just as well the Navy drills you until you can react without thinking. My hands reacted even if my mind was shot, throwing breakers, testing circuits, until finally we had some semblance of emergency power from the batteries. The boards flared red again, but now I had time to deal with them, assuming no one sent a torpedo down to finish us off.
Poking a handful of switches soon convinced me that we weren't going home under our own power. The control system was fried, and probably everything else as well. The Argie torpedo had killed my ship, the only question left was whether it had killed me as well.
"Mickey?" I asked into the sound-powered phone. One final try to salve my conscience, but there was nothing, nothing but an ominous groan that I hoped was the ship and not the command bubble. I pulled open the guarded flap on the arm of my seat, fingered the two buttons there for a moment as I said goodbye to the ship, then hit them one after the other. The ejection circuits were self-powered, if the engineering bubble had survived then maybe the ejection charge would still function, if it hadn't I had done what I could. The command bubble's own ejection charge was startlingly loud, and I'd never envisaged ejecting while hanging upside down. The sensations were far worse than I had imagined and for a moment I thought the bubble had failed, but at our depth bubble failure would have killed us instantaneously. We drifted for a moment, wobbling, then there was a series of softer bangs and the bubble slowly righted itself as the propane balloons inflated around us. I reached across and snagged Lucy's hand in mine. She was probably too far gone to know, but it might penetrate at some level and it made me feel better.
"Hold on," I told her, as we drifted in the silence of the deep.
Cold War: Southern Ocean
Lt Cmdr Robert Miller, RN
Proceedings of the USNI
May, 2297
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I don't know how I missed this! I have been watching "Stingray" this pass couple of weeks, and was thing of something along this line of gaming in the 15mm range. Rebel Minis has some VSF figures for underwater adventures.
Seeing what you have done, is amazing work and look forward to more and additional inspiration!