Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Muzfish4 on June 07, 2020, 08:34:50 AM
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Hello all,
A while ago I ordered some miniatures from A & A with a vague intent to use them in some sort of skirmish gaming or something like that but mainly because I really liked the sculpts. The C3rd AD is quite distinctive but is the least explored Roman period by gamers and manufacturers. This could be due to it being thought of as the ‘Time of Chaos’ where emperors and pretenders cycled through the purple at an alarming rates while the frontiers were pierced and the Romans found themselves very much on the back foot after generations of dominance. Could also be the lack of first rate surviving sources.
Anyway, I find the whole scrabbling to survive in a changing time theme interesting and have finished the first couple of 'Palestinian clubmen’:
(http://i.imgur.com/moNwXX0.jpg?2) (https://imgur.com/moNwXX0)
(http://i.imgur.com/XfHxkvz.jpg?2) (https://imgur.com/XfHxkvz)
(http://i.imgur.com/GTE4D6E.jpg?2) (https://imgur.com/GTE4D6E)
The clubmen themselves were, according to Zosimus, not local yokels with cheap weapons but rather picked soldiers who were grouped together and given the heavy clubs and husbanded by careful comanders as a method to counter heavy cavalry. Seems to have been effective on the field of battle. Not sure how many rule sets give dudes with clubs the edge over heavily armoured cavalry.
The A& A miniatures are excellent sculpts, though do need a bit of preparation work before painting. Steve at A&A is a delight to deal with and offers excellent after-sales service. The idea is to do them in a variety of equipment and skin hues to suggest an army which is forced to mend and make do as supply become less regular. The next batch will be blondes with very pale skin to suggest that the ‘Germanisation’ of the Roman army is accelerating in this period.
Here are another couple of infantry done but waiting for their shields:
I have a set of LMB transfers but have never used them before. Would it be best to affix them to the shield and varnish and then apply the transfer or can it all be done before varnishing? I tend to use Testors Dullcote if that helps.
Here's how they look presently unshielded:
(http://i.imgur.com/0RGiXcs.jpg?2) (https://imgur.com/0RGiXcs)
(http://i.imgur.com/BTn8LfN.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/BTn8LfN)
(http://i.imgur.com/KIPlT2O.jpg?2) (https://imgur.com/KIPlT2O)
Anyway, thanks for looking and very keen to hear advice around the best order to apply transfers and varnish.
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Very evocative. :-* I'd never thought considering c3ad ... o_o
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Very nice. I would really like a 3rd Century force but find that A&A range too "hit and miss" for my liking. I've decided my next army will be early 7th century Byzantine using the new Aventine miniatures.
Regarding LBMS decals I've always just undercoated the shield white, and then applied the decal straight onto that. I then normally paint the rim of the shield, affix to the figure and then matt varnish the two together. Very rarely have any problems.
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These look very nice indeed, you’ve done a great job on them - it is an interesting indeed...I look forward to seeing and learning more
Re transfers I second SJWi - front of shield in matt white, then transfer, touch up gaps and shield edge, then matt varnish (I also apply MicroSol to the transfer to get it to lie really flat - the solution basically welds the design to the surface)
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What they said. I haven't tried using Microsol on them but will the next time I apply some.
I have a bunch of the A&A legionaries on my blog. I love them.
https://paintingdistractions.wordpress.com/category/aa-miniatures/
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I have a bunch of the A&A legionaries on my blog. I love them.
Not wanting to go off topic but that’s a spectacular collection !
....back on topic - can’t recommend Microsol highly enough - especially when it comes to things like Hoplite shields...the solution really helps to soften up and mould the transfer to the convex surface of the shield ;)
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Thanks for the tip re Microsol. I may get some myself. The only time I ever had a problem with LBMS was with hoplite shields for the reason you mention.
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Good start on a fascinating period. Hope there are many more to come. :)
The C3rd AD is quite distinctive but is the least explored Roman period by gamers and manufacturers. This could be due to it being thought of as the ‘Time of Chaos’ where emperors and pretenders cycled through the purple at an alarming rates while the frontiers were pierced and the Romans found themselves very much on the back foot after generations of dominance. Could also be the lack of first rate surviving sources.
Totally agree. I wish more manufacturers would do "Middle Imperials" though, if just for the sake of variety. That said, there are some very good extras to be found in Aventine's 2nd century range; up to the point that I could match my A&A commander on horseback with a dismounted version (not to distract too much, here's just a link (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=43349.msg530063#msg530063)).
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By the way regarding sources, I see that Pen and Sword have recently released books on Gallienus and Aurelian/Probus. Both are by Ilkka Syvanne who is writing a multi-volume military history of the late Roman Empire. Probably worth a look even if a tad hard to read....at least based on previous experience.
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Thansk for the kind words and advice, everyone.
Looks like I'll need to investigate Microsol vendors.
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Great work as always mate.
I have never had to use Microsol on LBMS transfers, but that's not to say that it won't help. Toyworld out at Fyshwick used to stock it.
The issue of 'true' skirmish rules for Ancients has always been a thorny one for me. We adapted Hail Caesar for skirmish back in the day and that worked quite well. And I have long thought about modifying En Garde! for Ancients. I really don't like SPQR, and most other rules sets are for 40+ models.
Something to discuss!
CW
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Great work as always mate.
I have never had to use Microsol on LBMS transfers, but that's not to say that it won't help. Toyworld out at Fyshwick used to stock it.
The issue of 'true' skirmish rules for Ancients has always been a thorny one for me. We adapted Hail Caesar for skirmish back in the day and that worked quite well. And I have long thought about modifying En Garde! for Ancients. I really don't like SPQR, and most other rules sets are for 40+ models.
Something to discuss!
CW
Thanks, mate. Called Toyworld but they don't stock it so order through Mighty Ape. Should be here in a week or two.
Interested to investigate options for skirmish gaming. Might even invest in Infamy, Infamy at some stage.
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Those clubmen look ace - well done :-*
For LBMS transfers, once I stick them I apply a coat of citadel Lahmian Medium. No varnish - it may sound strange but I found it effective.
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I know a couple of people locally who will be picking up Infamy, Infamy. I have always been disappointed by TFL rules - superficial, really poorly written and badly structured. I will probably give them a shot but I am not confident!
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Good morning. Regarding 2FL rules I think it rather depends which era you are looking at. I would agree with most of your comments when looking at their older rulesets . I bought "If the Lord spares Us" for WW1 Palestine and gave up after a few minutes. However me and my mates have found Chain of Command, Dux, and Sharpe Practice 2 much better. But I would say that with their card/chit based activation and "bad things happen" tables these are rules aimed at the "fun" end of the spectrum rather than die-hard competition gaming. "What a Tanker" is a fun "beer and pretzels" tank vs tank game, not a detailed recreation of WW2 armoured combat.
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Dux and Sharpe are the TFL rules that I have the most experience with, and both are pretty terrible IMHO. But each to their own.
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Craig, have you tried SP2? I hated the original SP but have found SP2 better. All my mates have gone for "Infamy, Infamy", but I must admit I have managed to resist. I am more likely to spend my cash on a copy of Simon McDowell's "Comitatus".
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Thanks for the feedback. Will ponder on the rules and see what others make of Infamy, Infamy.
No Microsol last week but did manage to get a bunch of shields finished and ready for decal-ing:
(https://i.imgur.com/qRuQBJL.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/wTplDnU.jpg?1)
I painted the front with a couple of thin coats of VGC white figuring they did not need to be pure brilliant white, just white enough to not obscure the details on the decals.
I also did some other shields including some of the Warlord freebie midget Roman veterans that came with one of the WI last year. I'll use them for practice.
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Muzfish, your original post inspired me to go back and look at A&A. Some of the packs/ranges are a bit hit-and-miss and are showing their age, but I agree the Middle Imperial Roman ( 3rd Century) have stood the test of time. A mate of mine beat me to buying a Roman army but yesterday I bought a Palmyran army with Eastern Roman allies. Can't wait to get them onto the painting table.
A&A currently have a June "buy four packs get one free" offer plus half-price P&P.
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The Microsol has finally turned up and I had my first foray into LMB transfers.
I did three Warlord ones to get a feel for it and initially found them to be very frustrating as the plastic layer just did not want to peel off which got a bit frustrating. I used sticky tape which either took it off first time of made no difference whatsoever - am I missing anything here?
After three Warlord ones I needed a bit of a change and found that oval C3rd AD shields I picked up from A&A all had their plastic coat come off first time and were super easy to use. Just to test things out I then tried a hexagonal cavalry shield (difficult) and an rectangular shield with the 'Dura Europas' design on it which came of first time and, again, worked well (though the A&A shield boss is circular I think a bit of judicious painting should deal with any possible problems with this one.
Anyway, shield transfers are on and the microsol was useful in moving them about a bit:
(http://i.imgur.com/GNS427f.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/GNS427f)
In the meantime I have also finished an officer type - really like this pose:
(http://i.imgur.com/B8enPqE.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/B8enPqE)
Will get the shield glues on tomorrow and may even get a chance to finish up, base and varnish. Chance would be a fine thing.
As an aside, the A&A sale did tempt me but I made a compact with myself to order no more until I finish off this lot. The month's special offer is an extra cavalryman and still half price postage....
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A small step before cutting the transfers out which helps is to peel back the plastic down to the description but not fully off releasing the transfers then letting it settle back in place, this I find makes getting the backing sheet off easier once cut.
Cheers
Keith
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Thanks, Keith. I'll try that for the next lot.
Anyway, I got sidetracked a bit and ended up finishing three of the Warlord C1st AD Romans that came as a freebie in a WI last year some time. Here are the veterans three:
(https://i.imgur.com/PWQqUNn.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/R6kAf3h.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/zcNyBcE.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/G6TSnfc.jpg?1)
I quite like the miniatures but they're pretty small. One day, once I'm done with this little project, I might have ago at a C1st AD Roman force; Aventine look like they have some very nice miniatures.
Back to the chaos of the C3rd, here's three infantrymen shielded, based and varnished. The Testors Dullcote worked a treat in taking the shine off the LBM transfers:
(https://i.imgur.com/dyaHloK.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/ffQCNIU.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ow7h3ke.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/fVvjdQV.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/XCTgG3u.jpg?1)
So, there we go, a good bit of progress here. Finally, the comparison shots. Apart from being from different periods the tiny Warlord Games Romans just don't look right next to the A&A Romans:
(https://i.imgur.com/7h3VbfK.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/u3IuJ9M.jpg?1)
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Great stuff 8) 8) 8)
If I haven't said it already, I love the Third Century A&A Roman range.
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As you paint your shields separate, what do you use to attach them?
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As you paint your shields separate, what do you use to attach them?
Just a few dabs of superglue. Was thinking of a fancy two part epoxy resin but if this works and withstands handling then so much the better.
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I would endorse using superglue. I actually use almost the cheapest I can find. The key for me is finding one that is fast-setting. That’s why I don’t use epoxy resin.
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Thanks guys!
It’s a continuous thing I contemplate. I know the bond is supposed to be far better with no paint on the surfaces. Yet, it’s hard to paint figures moulded with separate shields after the shields are attached.
I have read about a chap who uses Aleene’s Stretchable Fabric Glue. Supposed to be permanent but allows some movement and not just break off like I find superglue does.
Sitting in a display case is one thing, playing with and transport are another!
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I usually pin my shields and paint shield and mini separately. It's a pain in the bum but it does mean you can get a metal on metal bond . Still, as long as the shields stay on the models- I had never heard of fabric superglue. It must have some 'give'; in it to work on fabrics? It sounds like it's worth trying out. :)
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Just a comment on skirmish rules. I share the opinion that Sharp Practice 2 is a pleasant and accurate set of rules for a broad approach of the black powder period ( without too much minutiae on drill moves).
I think Dux Brit. has a fine flavor too. In fact I just tasted the rules for a post-Aetius Frankish raid in the so-called kingdom of Soissons. It works perfectly. And, simple as they are, these are the first rules ever to accurately simulate one central element of cavalry warfare: the horses!
Here you must think about the mount first: one point of shock means the horses get nervous, and double shock to figures ration means horses are blown away! That alone should justify giving these rules a try!
But for the Third Century, one of my personal favorite periods, I'm going to try Clash of Spears. It should adapt well to the Rhine-Danubian scenarios at least. Or so I hope to discover.
Philippe
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I have read good things about Clasj of Spears and have been following it since testing phase.
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I have some A&A Samnites to paint for a friend - they required a lot of cleaning up especially around the hand that would hold a weapon :-[
That is a good tip on the Microsol, I will pass it on to the local group as there are a couple of players with Macedonians.
Shields - I prime both sides and then attract the outside face to a nail head with brutal. Paint the inside face and give it a quick coat of Dullcote to protect.
Turn the shield over and either paint white for transfers or whatever colour required if no transfers available.
Prior to painting the figure I drill a hole in the hand where the shield will attach and glue in a pin. Drill matching hole in the shield - prior to painting -just deep enough to form a key.
Clean of any paint where the hand and shield contact, bond with epoxy resin.
As an added bond I will add spots of superglue where the shield touch’s any place on the body.
As this is done before varnishing there is no glossy residue.
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I'm with Mindenbrush, 99% of the time I pin the shields on post painting and varnishing with a very tough gloss and Windsor and Newton Artists Professional Matt spray- flattest matt and most consistent results I've ever had with a varnish.
Not always, and with the Early Byzantines as can be seen on this thread:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=126018.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=126018.0)
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Interesting thoughts on the best way to affix shields. I'll see how superglue goes when they finally get onto the table of honour.
Anyway, I finished another couple of clubmen who are meant to look Germanic:
(https://i.imgur.com/DGLlNOe.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/D3o5cyh.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/wAAHrbJ.jpg?1)
Here they are with their other mates:
(https://i.imgur.com/DkV3cJ6.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/gb3mD41.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/5OwgzE5.jpg?1)
That's half of them done now so starting to feel like I am really making a bit of progress.
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So much for progress. RL halted painting for a while but I've managed to liberate some time and finished another two clubmen:
(https://i.imgur.com/JBjMvUa.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/x5aJ3up.jpg?1)
I did these guys with different skintones and different wood colouring to, again, suggest a polyglot unit rapidly assembled. Here's the unit so far:
(https://i.imgur.com/He2t8nF.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/7EYXPHf.jpg?1)
And here they are ready(ish) to go into action:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zy34NbI.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/Evc3HLt.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/Evc3HLt)
Next step will be finish the final two (again with slight variances) and then have a look at the command elements.
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Very nice. A 3rd Century A&A Miniatures Roman army is my painting project for the Festive season which for me starts this Saturday. A nice opponent for my Palmyrans and Sassanid Persians.
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Lovely work :-*
The A&A Third Century Romans range is one of my all times faves- net to the Sassanid range of course1 8)
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Atheling, the A&A Palmyrans are pretty unique. I find the Sassanids a bit of a mixed bag. The cavalry are nice, the infantry rather “wooden” IMHO. I bought Gripping Beast many years ago before “re-finding” A&A over the Summer.
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Atheling, the A&A Palmyrans are pretty unique. I find the Sassanids a bit of a mixed bag. The cavalry are nice, the infantry rather “wooden” IMHO. I bought Gripping Beast many years ago before “re-finding” A&A over the Summer.
I am going to go with Aventine for my Sassanids as I have done with my Early Byzantines/Eastern Romans. The Aventine range is much more suitable for the era I have in mind as many of the A&A 'Sassanid' mini's could equally be Parthians, which are obviously too early. Basically the A&A range is 'early' and the Aventine 'late' :)
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Atheling, good call. Yes the A&A range are "early" . My next purchase is Aventine's Byzantine range. I'm just waiting to see the cavalry and then I'll open the wallet. I am inspired by your painting of them.
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Atheling, good call. Yes the A&A range are "early" . My next purchase is Aventine's Byzantine range. I'm just waiting to see the cavalry and then I'll open the wallet. I am inspired by your painting of them.
Keep you eyes pealed on my blog re: horses ;)
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Lovely looking Clubmen Muzfish...
They are nice and weighty looking and certainly look like they could hold their own against heavy cavalry...
I have a unit of these sitting in the lead mountain and I am looking forward to painting them...
All the best. Aly
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Thanks for the kind word.
Not getting as much done as I had hoped, but did finish a couple more legionaries. I have decided to go for the mix-and-match look by adding a couple of these guys to future units with different coloured uniforms and shield designs.
(https://i.imgur.com/6ZaHZ8C.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/UNGXF7V.jpg?1)
Once I finish off what I have in the painting queue I'll make another order to A&A to add some more infantry and skirmishers.
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Muzfish, very nice. As I posted last year I planned to start to paint my 3rd century A&A army over Christmas and am pleased to report I managed the whole lot including the Warbases sabot bases. They even won their 1st game last Thursday beating the A&A Palmyran army I also bought and painted last year. The figures aren't as crisp as the latest sculpts from say Foundry or Aventine, but are still very nice and the only ones available for that period . Very pleased that I invested in LBMS decals as these really add something to the units . I have just bough a few more packs including a dromedary unit and these have pushed their way to the front of my painting queue.
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Really nice work 8)
I lobe the A&A Middle Imperial Rome range.
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Thanks for the kind words. I have finally finished the last couple of clubmen:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zp1Mg84.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/GtKVqGC.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/8IkOlUZ.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/GQ5GLkf.jpg?1)
Here's a collated shot (first try at adding an image to my LAF Gallery):
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/10657-180321045947.jpeg)
Here's a *better) second attempt at a collage:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/50/10657-180321051202.jpeg)
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Fab stuff 8)
I love the "Palestinian" Club Men :-*
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Thanks, funny way to remember them as 'Palestinian clubmen' (I can recall at least one book showing them as bareheaded dudes in tunics with clubs) when they were a bunch of the better soldiers from a variety of formations give big ol' clubs to counter heavily armoured enemy cavalry.
The A& A miniatures are very good in giving a variety of helmets and armour to make it look like the chaps from different legions/cohorts/whatevers were still in their own kit. I though it'd be nice to try to tie them together with similar tunics and trousers - the sort of things that might get issued out when a new elite unit is formed. Knowing the military mindset though, it's highly likely the soldiers had their pay docked and were still held liable for any losses or breakages.
Anyway, I wasn't overly happy with the photos above so I decided to snap a few more of the completed unit:
(http://i.imgur.com/5DfHe4Q.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/5DfHe4Q)
(https://i.imgur.com/27xGNl2.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/9rjD4D7.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/WCzYNA2.jpg?1)
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Thanks, funny way to remember them as 'Palestinian clubmen' (I can recall at least one book showing them as bareheaded dudes in tunics with clubs) when they were a bunch of the better soldiers from a variety of formations give big ol' clubs to counter heavily armoured enemy cavalry.
Yeah, they were supposed to have been put together to counter the Parthian and Armenian Cataphracts. I'm not sure how successful they actually were as the formations seem to have been quite ad hoc and lacking the esprit de corps that fighting in ones own legion with comrades you have known for many years.
(http://i.imgur.com/5DfHe4Q.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/5DfHe4Q)
(https://i.imgur.com/27xGNl2.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/9rjD4D7.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/WCzYNA2.jpg?1)
[/quote]
More lovely work :-*
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Managed to get a bit more work done on this by finishing up come command figures:
Officer:
(http://i.imgur.com/sOIPuso.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/sOIPuso)
(https://i.imgur.com/a1LimP6.jpg?1)
Musician:
(https://i.imgur.com/XXWqx7j.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/pyKMhuv.jpg?1)
Might have to find a shield for this guy in the future but happy with how he looks for now.
Leadership Group:
(https://i.imgur.com/SdzmTqE.jpg?1)
Standard bearers of one sort or another next - plenty of variety in the A&A range.
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Muzfish, very nice. I managed to complete my A&A 3rd century army last Christmas and IMHO very nice it looks to. The only figures I don't have are the Clubmen as they don't appear in the TTS lists. Probably too "campaign specific" for a generic list.
I think the A&A range is under-appreciated by many, and indeed I had forgotten about them for many years. In the last 15 months I have bought complete Roman and Palmyran armies from him, plus some of his Gauls for an "Infamy" force and Spanish and Numdians for my Caesarian Roman army.
Well worth checking out.
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One of my top two ranges of Imperial Romans. 8)
Goodly work sir!
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Thanks for the kind words.
I have been looking at the flag bearing dude and of a mind to use test stating that his mob is a detachment of their original legion (gotta be Leg II Parthica to compliment the A&A eagle in a cage miniature). Without making too much of a rod for my own back I was thinking of just using text rather than imagery, How does this read to all the epigraphists out there:
Vex Leg II
Parth Sev
P Fid
Fel Aet
Please advise if you have any suggestions/corrections.
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Yeah, they were supposed to have been put together to counter the Parthian and Armenian Cataphracts. I'm not sure how successful they actually were as the formations seem to have been quite ad hoc and lacking the esprit de corps that fighting in ones own legion with comrades you have known for many years.
I suspect they were not separate formations but a small portion of each cohort armed in this fashion when they were expecting to encounter cataphracts.
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Vex Leg II
Parth Sev
P Fid
Fel Aet
Please advise if you have any suggestions/corrections.
Do you have a copy of The Army of Maximinus Thrax, Jan Eschbach, Stefano Borinbook available from Karwansaray Publishers, the guys who do WSS, Medieval Warfare and Ancient Warfare magazines?
Link:
https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/the-army-of-maximinus-thrax.html (https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/the-army-of-maximinus-thrax.html)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51R5DHX+NHL._SX361_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
My copy is in a box at the moment but if memory serves it does have information about Parthia, though I could be wrong so I would wait to see if anyone can confirm that on this thread first prior to buying!
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I don't have a copy ... yet.
Was very interested but the lukewarm review by Harry Sidebottom in a recent AW gave me pause. Is it worth a look?
I have been nosing about looking for a cheap copy of Apemea in Syria (despite having little German) but most of the gravestones are on livius.org (where I got the idea for the draft epigraphy above) so that's not so urgent.
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I don't have a copy ... yet.
Was very interested but the lukewarm review by Harry Sidebottom in a recent AW gave me pause. Is it worth a look?
I have been nosing about looking for a cheap copy of Apemea in Syria (despite having little German) but most of the gravestones are on livius.org (where I got the idea for the draft epigraphy above) so that's not so urgent.
It's pretty good for painting inspiration. I'm so snowed under with literature I haven't had a chance to read it. The illustrations are not exactly hyper realistic but they do convey the "idea" and are pretty good overall.
I bought it because Karwansaray, producers of Wargames, Soldiers and Strategy, Ancient Warfare, Medieval Warfare and Ancient History so I took it that it would be reasonably accurate going on the publishers very good reputation. Also, I got quite a cheap copy in English on Amazon.
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Thanks for the info. I'll keep an eye out for this one.
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Thanks for the info. I'll keep an eye out for this one.
No porbs. From what I understand,the book has come under some criticism from Harry Sidebottom but even if the info is out of date/incorrect the illustrations have a great "feel" for the army and I think are quite inspirational for painting.