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Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: ntdars on June 11, 2020, 05:27:15 PM

Title: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: ntdars on June 11, 2020, 05:27:15 PM
Hello folks! New to the board here in search of an ACW ruleset. Specifically, my group will be using 10mm miniatures as we love the scale and it's not so small like 6mm.


We would prefer a ruleset with point values or at least smaller engagements since it makes pick up games that much easier. I fully understand why some people would shun point values in the ACW setting, but most people don't have 8 hours on a Sunday to play through the whole battle of Gettysburg.

We were looking at Altar of Freedom as an option, but sadly they don't have point values and the scenarios are limited. Fire & Fury looks decent as well, but the barrier to entry for some of their scenarios are absolutely insane, and the rules seem more on the "sim" side (which isn't a bad thing), but we're definitely looking for something more fast play.

Last, maybe the Black Powder rules with the ACW supplement would be worth looking at? Only problem is that we wanted something that represented the era well, and not Warhammer 40k ACW edition.

Would love hear thoughts, thanks!
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: fred on June 11, 2020, 05:34:47 PM
Welcome, good choice on 10mm!

Altar of Freedom is a very interesting game, and certainly lets you play big battles in a fairly small space. Its a while since I looked at it, but I thought it had a good number of scenarios with it. And regarding points values, how important is this, when you have relatively few troop types?

Black Powder isn't to everyone's taste, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as 40k ACW (that label could well be give to the Warhammer Historical stable, but not to BP and Hail Caesar, that have much more in common with Warmaster, than Warhammer).
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: ntdars on June 11, 2020, 05:49:50 PM
Welcome, good choice on 10mm!

Altar of Freedom is a very interesting game, and certainly lets you play big battles in a fairly small space. Its a while since I looked at it, but I thought it had a good number of scenarios with it. And regarding points values, how important is this, when you have relatively few troop types?

Black Powder isn't to everyone's taste, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as 40k ACW (that label could well be give to the Warhammer Historical stable, but not to BP and Hail Caesar, that have much more in common with Warmaster, than Warhammer).

Thanks for the reply!

AoF only has 4 starter scenarios in the book, I guess more can be found online somewhere as the guy has his own website; https://www.6mmacw.com/rules.html

Good to know about Black Powder. I'm coming from a Bolt Action background so I was expecting to play a lot like Games Workshops older systems. Black Powder is based on the old Warmaster system correct?

Maybe we'll bite the bullet and go in on Altar of Freedom since the rules themselves are under 30 pages, which is very welcome after reading the massive books of Fire & Fury, Across a Bloody Field, Longstreet and so on.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: fred on June 11, 2020, 08:04:42 PM
Yep, BP is based (somewhat) on Warmaster, its nothing like Bolt Action. Units are units, there is no figure removal, most units only have 3 hits.

Movement is by command roll, the more you pass the test by determines if you get 1, 2 or 3 moves (this is the bit we didn't like for ACW, troops zoom across the table).

Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: robh on June 11, 2020, 09:26:46 PM
Movement is by command roll, the more you pass the test by determines if you get 1, 2 or 3 moves (this is the bit we didn't like for ACW, troops zoom across the table).

Agree absolutely, the mechanism is OK in a Fantasy setting but it ruins any semblance of historical accuracy when used outside that.  Cold War Commander uses the same mechanism  :-[

There are many (hundreds probably) of ACW rules available depending on how big a battle you want to create, whether the difference between one kind of rifle musket over another is important or whether you follow the theory that the South had the better elan.
Like Napoleonics it really is an era where the style of game you want to play determines the rules you use.
Personally for a "Black Powder" style game I would start with Johnny Reb which has an excellent feel for the period, enough detail to reflect the different stages of the war and different east/west campaigns and relatively straightforward mechanics.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: FierceKitty on June 12, 2020, 12:38:00 AM
Wise choice with 10mm!
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: FifteensAway on June 12, 2020, 01:18:50 AM
Rank and File rules from Crusader publishing and add in their ACW supplement (which gives you the points system if I recall correct - or maybe it was another supplement).  Fast, fun rules that easy to learn and play a quick game. 

Keep to a couple of brigades per side and you get a very quick game, use the d6 morale in the rules, too.  Or, use the d8 option for morale and maybe get a slightly longer game but better durability for units on the table. 

I do recommend at least five and preferably six stands per unit but you can have one or two figures per stand if you like - or six if you want.  Fewer units with fewer figures reduces the barrier to getting to the game.  I went with eight stands per unit plus a mounted colonel with a foot figure so nine stands total but that is just my personal choice.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: SteveBurt on June 12, 2020, 08:44:45 AM
You can't go wrong with Fire and Fury. Either the brigade game if you want big battles, or the regimental set for smaller ones. Loads of scenarios for both sets available.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: vtsaogames on June 12, 2020, 08:23:27 PM
Bloody Big Battles works well for large ACW battles, but no points system. The ACW scenarios are in the BBB group in group.io. They include First Bull Run, Stones River and Champion Hill (my efforts), the designer's most excellent Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, and other scenarios by group members, Nashville among them.

Basic units are brigades or divisions, sometimes half-corps. The rules resemble very stripped down Fire and Fury.

My group has played Shiloh 6 or 7 times over the years, always a near-run thing.

Oh yes, basing is the same as Fire & Fury so you can use those for smaller fights.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Jemima Fawr on June 12, 2020, 08:30:51 PM
My vote would be for Brigade Fire & Fury (2nd Edition).  I've not played Regimental Fire & Fury.  There's no points-system, but the army generation system for pickup battles is superb.

Most people just seem to use the standard base-sizes, as for 15mm, but with a few more troops on the table.  However, I wanted to do it on a smaller footprint, so reduced the scales by 20% (1 inch in the rules becomes 2cm).  To save on maths, I've put the modified tables on my blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2020/02/01/playing-brigade-fire-fury-2nd-edition-in-10mm-i-did-it-my-way/
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: mellis1644 on June 12, 2020, 09:22:39 PM
You might want to consider Longstreet. The campaign system is very good and allows you to string together games. It does have a point system for one-off games as well. It's a very specific type of system though so some people will not like it as it a card driven.

I plan on using the Osprey's Rebels & Patriots and/or Too Fat Lardies Sharpe Practice 2 for smaller size engagements using my 10mm figs. I have my 10mm figs on inch square bases and I'll just just use those instead of a single figures. All other things in the rules will remain the same. Doing this really makes the figure to ground scale about 1 to 1 as well which is a bonus. The games look great. It works fine and allows a lot more characterful (and great looking) large skirmishes vs. huge battles. Both systems have points BTW and allow you to play while you work up to the large forces needed for really big battles.

You can see here the units like this look great:
(https://mellis1644.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/img_1535.jpg?w=1278&h=650)   
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: SJWi on June 13, 2020, 05:59:39 AM
I am surprised you say that Altar of Freedom (AoF) scenarios are limited. There are two scenario books available, each with I think 18 battles. We bought AoF to use with our shiny new collections of Baccus 6mm. The mechanics are quite novel, but we found them overly "fiddly", especially as regards movement. Worth a look as you can get them fairly cheaply as a PdF from Wargames Vault. 

 
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: vtsaogames on June 13, 2020, 10:36:42 AM
I am surprised you say that Altar of Freedom (AoF) scenarios are limited. There are two scenario books available, each with I think 18 battles. We bought AoF to use with our shiny new collections of Baccus 6mm. The mechanics are quite novel, but we found them overly "fiddly", especially as regards movement. Worth a look as you can get them fairly cheaply as a PdF from Wargames Vault. 

Our group tried AoF a few years back. We found the combat system indecisive. The Union at Shiloh wasn't really hard pressed, ditto the Rebs at Champion Hill, etc. Perhaps we were playing it wrong, but combat seemed to produce pushng back and forth with very few units ever routed. I did find the Command/control rules interesting. I'd appreciate your take on the combat and what we might have been doing wrong.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Mindenbrush on June 13, 2020, 12:45:50 PM
I play a lot of Fire & Fury - both Brigade 2nd Ed and Regimental in 15/18mm and one of group has used F&F for 10mm Franco-Prussian War.

For scenarios take a look at Potomac Publications in the Wargames Vault, loads of scenarios.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Ray Rivers on June 13, 2020, 12:54:06 PM
I play a lot of Fire & Fury - both Brigade 2nd Ed and Regimental in 15/18mm and one of group has used F&F for 10mm Franco-Prussian War.

For scenarios take a look at Potomac Publications in the Wargames Vault, loads of scenarios.

Sorry to side track things... just a quick question.

How good is F&F for the Franco-Prussian War? Does it cover the weapons used adequately or do you have to make some adjustments?
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: FifteensAway on June 13, 2020, 04:34:27 PM
Actually, you can go wrong with Fire and Fury in my opinion.  It is a slow and wonky system that is pure torture compared to other rules, I'd go back to Johnny Reb 2nd edition over Fire and Fury - and that was a challenging set of rules in many ways but also the leader in ACW gaming for a very long time.  I have played Fire and Fury a few times and I will happily pass.  It is part of why I searched and found Rank and File (well, it actually, sort of, found me - a friend was playing it in a game next to one I was running at a convention and watching lead to buying the rules, reading the rules sold me on them, and playing the rules sealed the deal - they are now my go to rules for almost every collection I have).

And a huge advantage with Rank and File is that it is designed to cover from 1740 to 1900 (and can stretch a bit at both ends of the time frame).  Some will say that is a problem with the rules, that it doesn't allow all the appropriate detail for a given period.  To each their own, of course, or sheer balderdash.  The goal is a fun game, not some excruciating recreation of a 'real' war.  The rules are simple and fun to play, always lead to a conclusion, and don't take forever to play and easy for new players to pick up.  And they won't break if you tinker with them, exceptionally flexible rules.

Last Fire and Fury game I observed took way over an hour for troops to come into contact and only managed a few turns of actual combat before time ran out (I hear it was about six or more hours of play time - I couldn't stay that long just to observe).  Rank and File would have closed to combat in maybe 15 minutes, if that long, and the game could have finished with a clear result in three hours - maybe four if breaking for lunch.

Obviously, there are many voices here favoring Fire and Fury.  But, as so often, people defend their favorite rules (because that is what they know).  That being so, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt.  But I'll bet Rank and File meet your stated desires considerably better than Fire and Fury.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Ray Rivers on June 13, 2020, 05:14:59 PM
Rank and File

Nice!

Hell, I could play these rules just using the free download of their two page cheat sheets:

https://crusaderpublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/randffastplaysheets1.pdf

A bit simplified overall, but I like beer and pretzel rules.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: vtsaogames on June 14, 2020, 12:47:10 AM
Sorry to side track things... just a quick question.

How good is F&F for the Franco-Prussian War? Does it cover the weapons used adequately or do you have to make some adjustments?

F&F needs changes to reflect the Franco-Prussian War - others have done it and posted online. Being a fan of Bloody Big Battles, I will say those rules cover the 19th Century (and have been stretched slightly before and after) and include needle guns, Chassepot and Tabatiere rifles, Krupp guns etc. The rules come with scebarios fo that war, 8 I think. The group.io group has scenarios for more battles. My crew played a campaign of some 13 or 14 battles a few years ago. A great time was had by all. All fit on a 6 X 4 table, a few on 4 X 4 tables. Many were finished in 3 or 4 hours. Some of the larger battles took two sessions, like Gravelotte. hese were the entire batles, not a sub-section. Here's a summary of the http://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/2017/03/la-guerre-est-finie.html (http://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/2017/03/la-guerre-est-finie.html)

Gravelotte in F&F will not fit the entire battle on a 6 X 4 table. And you will need a LOT of figures. 
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: FifteensAway on June 14, 2020, 04:52:39 AM
Yes, Ray Rivers, most of our games very rarely leave those sheets for the rules.  Sure, it is simplistic in many ways - which is exactly why I love them.  Okay, maybe I am a bit of a simpleton.  Or, maybe I just greatly prefer to focus on the game on the table - and the figures, buildings, and terrain - far and above on the rules.

Another bet I'm willing to make.  H.G. Wells would gravitate to Rank and File and dump a lot of other rules in the waste bin.  Not that their aren't other good rules, not that even rule sets I don't care for don't have elements of value.  It's just that the goal, for me, is to have fun with miniatures.  And I think that was Mr. Wells goal, too.

Chess, at one level is so simple.  At another level, it is brain achingly complex.  And it has been around for a very long time indeed.  Rank and File is simple to play but it can also be complex in its extraordinary flexibility.  Okay, I've played this card to its end. 

Whatever rules you choose, make sure you are having fun.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: robh on June 14, 2020, 06:23:21 AM
Sorry to side track things... just a quick question.

How good is F&F for the Franco-Prussian War? Does it cover the weapons used adequately or do you have to make some adjustments?

There are adjustments required.
The Wyre Forest group sell a set of rules called "Mit Blut und Eisern" which is effectively F&F for the European Wars.  Excellent set of rules that give a distinctly different feeling game while still using the familiar F&F mechanics.
https://www.wfgamers.org.uk/FUFF
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Battle Brush Sigur on June 14, 2020, 08:16:40 AM
While Black Powder isn't perfect, but comparing it to 40k is doing the thing a bit of a disservice. :D (It's not Bolt Action after all ;) ) I think at 10mm and as a club game I think it can work very nicely. Main problem I see with BP is if people insist in using 28mm figures with it, but don't have the number of figures, the number of units and/or the required space. As a club game in 10mm I'd be up for using Black Powder.

Our Go-To rules set for ACW things is Longstreet. It's far from perfect, it's a tiny little bit gimmicky with the cards, but overall it's well thought out and works. Here's my review: https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/02/longstreet-rules-review/ (https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/02/longstreet-rules-review/).


Just to complicate things I'd like to bring up Sharp Practice 2. Simply because it's good fun. Depending on your basing it will work just fine with 10mm figures. Technically a skirmish game, but it'll work with a figure:men-ratio of up to 1:20 I guess. Here's my review: https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2019/07/sharp-practice-rules-introduction-and-review/ (https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2019/07/sharp-practice-rules-introduction-and-review/)


Other mentions: Pickett's Charge (bit larger, more than one brigade per player), Over Malvern Hill (played it once, works nicely).
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: ChrisBBB on June 15, 2020, 08:28:50 AM
Vincent, thanks for the kind mention of "Bloody Big Battles!" (BBB).

I'm not sure it's what the OP is looking for, as it was specifically designed to make refighting historical battles feasible, not for pick-up games. That said, a group in Texas did create a points system for BBB. This can be found in the group files. The group is here:
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
and the points table ("BBB_Points v1.3.xls") is here:
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles/files/BBB_Points%20v1.3.xls

Ray, as Vincent said, BBB includes 9 FPW scenarios in the rulebook, as that is what it was originally created for. We fought the whole 9-scenario campaign in one (intense) 3-day weekend. There are another 6 or 7 FPW scenarios in the group files. Probably 150 or so scenarios altogether now available for many different conflicts, mostly free in the group files, some in the two campaign supplements.

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1412549408869331/
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Mindenbrush on June 15, 2020, 12:27:11 PM
Sorry to side track things... just a quick question.

How good is F&F for the Franco-Prussian War? Does it cover the weapons used adequately or do you have to make some adjustments?

Sorry Ray, only just noticed your question. I believe they did some minor tweaks to cover the weapons. I will email them and find out.
As I was emailing my mate I remembered that Colonel (rtd) Bill who modified F&F Brigade to Age of Eagles (Naps) did a number of spin off from that which included Age of Valor 1848-1914.  https://ageofeagles.com/age-of-valor
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: Ray Rivers on June 15, 2020, 02:16:43 PM
Thanks for your responses everyone. I'm happy with the information given so please don't go out of your way for more because I have hijacked this thread enough.

The last time I played the ACW was back in the '70s when I was a youngster. At that time we used "Rally 'round the Flag." It was a true beer and pretzels rule set and we could set-up 3 corps per side with an infantry regiment from 16 to 24 men, 4 man to the base, play a game and clean up all in an afternoon.

OTOH, we also played Napoleonics and I believe we used the Empire rules and once again we had 3 corps per side, 24 men to a battalion on six bases of 4. We never finished a game, as an afternoon just wasn't enough time.

So I guess what I am saying here is that IMO, a rule set must not only cover the scope of the armies you have to play with, but also the time you have to play the game. It's been a long time since I have played a big battle of ACW, but the conversation has been very interesting.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: darthfozzywig on June 15, 2020, 03:51:19 PM
Fellow 10mm ACW gamer!  :)

While I really enjoy Fire & Fury, the scale (4-7 stands per brigade) made it impossible for me to play more than small parts of battles.

Personally, I really like Altar of Freedom. Love the command-control system and the scale makes it possible for me to play out entire battles on a 4x4 or 6x4 table. *glares at F&F wanting a 14x10 table for Gettysburg*

Regarding the lack of point system: it has "army builder" rules for creating fictional scenarios, so no worries there.

Between the two scenario books, it covers pretty much every major battle of both theaters.

There's also two free campaigns on the website (Gettysburg and Vicksburg), which are essentially mini-strategy games that generate tactical battles. Great stuff!

Regarding indecisive combats, that can definitely happen if you end up with brigades lined up evenly. That tends to result in units grinding away at each other until someone can't retire to recover and finally breaks. Of course, that tended to happen historically, too. Hitting someone on an open flank, however, tends to roll up a line pretty dramatically.

Fire & Fury is certainly more freewheeling and less predictable in its combat results, however, and there's fun in that, too!
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: ntdars on June 16, 2020, 02:47:25 AM
Wow, thanks for the warm welcome and tips everyone!

I saw the Altar of Freedom scenario books online after the post - looks good to me! I'll probably end of basing for Altar of Freedom for now just because I really, really enjoy how the rules are under 30 pages. Don't get my wrong, I like a crunchy rule-set and maybe down the line will move onto Fire & Fury.

My group is familiar with the Mustafa games like Rommel, so Longstreet will probably be played sometime down the line for sure.
Title: Re: 10mm ACW rulesets
Post by: SJWi on June 16, 2020, 05:16:11 AM
Hi, I thought I had posted something about AoF a few days ago but somehow must have deleted it. The AoF scenario books are probably a good buy whatever rules you use, as they contain full ORBATs for about 40 battles. They do play quite differently to other rules. We found movement fiddly and units difficult to kill. Lots of "pushing back"! Maybe that was realistic?

Contrary to what I have previously said one of my mates is looking at adapting Sam Mustafa's "Blucher" for ACW. Apparently you can find the ACW modifications on line; the problem is in sourcing the original "Blucher" rulebook. I'm sure we will be giving this a go sometime. However I don't think it will work as a remote Zoom game!