Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: SquireBev on June 23, 2020, 11:10:52 AM
-
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/
New link: http://www.uk-tank-markings.co.uk/
For the past few weeks I've been working on a guide to British Tank and vehicle markings - particular the arcane system of colours and numbers used for Arm of Service markings.
With help from people on other forums and social media I've been able to track down enough sources to come up with a vaguely coherent overview of the systems used throughout the war.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5nRpIMCM9QQ/XuzAt8iUMBI/AAAAAAAABno/-spiAeVuockIGC6FxHlF8oFpyv02eF24QCK4BGAsYHg/s5256/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BArmoured%2BDivision%2B-%2B1944-01.png)
Apologies if this breaks any rules about shameless self promotion, but I'm hoping the usefulness of the resource outweighs any potential distaste!
-
Excellent stuff! I've been meaning to do something similar for ages, but it's a hell of a lot of work and I've only finished bits and pieces on the Poles, Tank Bdes, Burma and the Dutch & Belgian Brigades. Well done for having the stamina for such a large project! :)
-
Thanks so much. I've been floundering about with British tank markings, and this is going to be a great help.
-
Just excellent work. A great help. Thanks Barry
-
A great resource - I did a couple of pages showing something similar but just for NW Europe - so hats off for covering the whole war.
A couple of little suggestions for improvements - perhaps some info about sizes, and locations of markings - and these probably need to be typical locations as there was a fair bit of variation.
-
A couple of little suggestions for improvements - perhaps some info about sizes, and locations of markings - and these probably need to be typical locations as there was a fair bit of variation.
Good idea - I'll see what I can do.
-
If you're up for some additional stuff, I've got the Dutch & Belgian Brigades here:
http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/latedutchbelgorbat.pdf
And Burma stuff here (7th Armoured Brigade, 50th Indian Tank Brigade, 254th Indian Tank Brigade, 255th Indian Tank Brigade and other bits and pieces):
http://www.fireandfury.com/painting/burmaarmypaintingguide.pdf
Something I'd add is that after Normandy a general order went out to independent brigades to change their serials to the same as Armoured Divisions (i.e. 50-54 on a red square). However, that order was only partially obeyed. 33rd Armoured Brigade definitely did so. 6th Guards Armoured Brigade also followed the order, but added the white 'Army Troops' bar across the bottom. 31st Tanks didn't follow the order, as they'd already been transferred to 79th Armoured Division and 30th Armoured Brigade (Sherman Crabs) was already using that scheme. 34th Tanks just disregarded the order and kept the same markings to the end of the war.
A lot of the formation signs were also slightly different when painted on vehicles, as opposed to when worn as a uniform badge. For example, the 1st Polish Armoured Division painted its divisional sign on an upright white rectangle, though when worn as a badge if was like your version, without the white backing.
2nd Polish Armoured Brigade had a formation sign, but never painted it on tanks. It was only painted on support vehicles and worn as a uniform badge.
6th Guards Tank Brigade tanks carried the 2nd Army (light blue cross on white shield with downward-pointing sword) shield in addition to their own brigade shield.
8th Armoured Brigade painted its fox-head badge in a yellow rectangle immediately above the serial number, rather than as a separate (circular) sign. The circular version was worn as a uniform badge, however.
22nd Armoured Brigade of 7th Armoured Division had its own brigade sign of a red stag's head on white rectangle, that was painted immediately above the unit serial. They also then painted the 7th Armoured Division sign in the usual place.
31st Tank Brigade's serials should have the diagonal stripe coming from the opposite corners (top-left to bottom-right), indicating Army Group Troops (bottom-left to top-right indicates Lines of Communication Troops). If it's any consolation, I painted my own Churchills wrong! :) There should also be a break in the stripe so that it doesn't obscure the serial number. I've shown them on here: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2020/04/23/churchill-tanks-in-nw-europe-1944-45-part-2/
33rd Armoured Brigade painted a fine white line around its green & black 'diablo' sign.
You could also add 1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade Group to your list. They landed at the end of the Normandy Campaign and spent the rest of the war besieging the German garrison of Dunkirk. Their formation sign was a 'square' chequered shield, which was divided into nine red & light blue squares (light blue in the corners and central square, the others red), superimposed with a white heraldic lion rampant and edged in white. There was a very small heraldic shield on the lion's chest. This was often painted in white outline only, without the red & blue bits. Serials were as for the Armoured Brigade of an Armoured Division (50 to 54 on red squares), plus 45 on green-over-blue for the recce squadron, 41 on cobalt blue for the engineer squadron, and red-over-blue for the artillery elements - 73 for the AA Troop, 74 for the Field Arty Regt and 77 for the AT Bty.
I hope this helps. You really have done a fantastic job! :)
-
Blimey, that's a lot of useful info!
I can definitely make use of the Dutch & Belgian Brigades and the Burma stuff to produce another set of diagrams, if you're happy for me to do so.
I'll see about adding the Army badge to the 6th Guards Tank brigade's info box too - I've been meaning to make a start on the Corps and Army badges anyway so it's as good a reason as any! I'll sort out the other brigade badges according to your info too - very useful stuff.
As for the Czechs, I was going to add them from the start but chickened out when it came to drawing their badge. All the others I've either drawn from scratch as they're basic geometric shapes, or traced from photos if they're a bit more complex, but the Czechs' badge had me beat.
I've also had a request from another forum to add a section about Royal Artillery markings too, so that's next on the to-do list.
-
Tidy! Please do copy anything you like. I don't envy you having to draw any of them, to be honest.
I've got a load of RA battery marking information here somewhere, if you're interested. Don't think I've got anything specific on AT or AA batteries though, sadly. However, the basic battery marking scheme was largely the same throughout the RA, RCA, etc.
Oh stand by on the Burma one though - I've just noticed that the version on the site is v1.4 and the one on my computer is v1.8! So wait for the new version to be posted - I'll send it off to the website owner now.
Some more info on 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade - from late July/early August 1944, when they switched from arid camouflage to olive-drab, they also changed the squadron sign designs. The geometric shapes were the same as normal, with the following embellishments:
4th 'Skorpion' Armoured Regt had a scorpion (painted in black with white details) interwoven diagonally through the (red) squadron signs.
1st Krechowiecki Lancers had a horse's head in white or yellow silhouette within the (yellow) squadron signs, sometimes with a white horseshoe 'hooked' over the bottom of the squadron sign.
6th 'Children of Lwow' Armoured Regiment then had white squadron signs instead of the regulation light blue signs and had a yellow lion rampant painted within each sign. They had regulation light blue squadron signs before the summer re-paint.
They were so boring up until that point... :D They also had a penchant for BIG tank names.
-
Oh lord. More complicated drawing.
I've fixed the flashes for the 31st Tank Brigade anyway: https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/independent-armoured-brigades.html
I'll see what I else I can fit in during slow spells at work tomorrow.
-
Oh lord. More complicated drawing.
I've fixed the flashes for the 31st Tank Brigade anyway: https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/independent-armoured-brigades.html
I'll see what I else I can fit in during slow spells at work tomorrow.
Sorry! lol Yeah, they didn't paint up their formation sign, but they're probably unique in having weird-bothered squadron signs (after July 1944 anyway).
-
Oh lord. More complicated drawing.
I've fixed the flashes for the 31st Tank Brigade anyway: https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/independent-armoured-brigades.html
I'll see what I else I can fit in during slow spells at work tomorrow.
Ooo… There's also the thorny subject of regimental transfers between brigades and subsequent reshuffles... :'(
-
I'm remembering why I never progressed with this project... ;)
-
I've dug out some photos that show tanks from 4th and 8th Armoured Brigades with the new standard 50-53 serials in 1945, so they clearly adopted the order at some point between Normandy and Germany (33rd Armoured Brigade changed its serials before October 1944, when they were photographed with the new markings at 's-Hertogenbosch). I don't have any info on their respective Motor Battalions though, so don't know if they adopted the 54 serial or kept their old serials.
-
Ah yes, that's a rabbit hole I haven't yet dared go down. I'm hoping the pile of books I've amassed over the last couple of months will have all the info, but as for turning it into a coherent picture for the website... ever feel like you've bitten off more than you can chew?
Speaking of which, I've been wondering about getting into decal printing. Now I've done all this design work on the markings it seems a shame not to put it to some practical use.
-
Ah yes, that's a rabbit hole I haven't yet dared go down. I'm hoping the pile of books I've amassed over the last couple of months will have all the info, but as for turning it into a coherent picture for the website... ever feel like you've bitten off more than you can chew?
Speaking of which, I've been wondering about getting into decal printing. Now I've done all this design work on the markings it seems a shame not to put it to some practical use.
Absolutely! I think there is a demand for them since Dom's Decals started having troubles and then disappeared altogether.
-
Absolutely! I think there is a demand for them since Dom's Decals started having troubles and then disappeared altogether.
Indeed. That was partially my inspiration for kicking off this project in the first place.
I'd dug out some old sheets from Dom's Decals and noticed they all came with a helpful little key to the AoS numbers and bridge classes - something sorely lacking from the official Flames of War decal sets - so I thought I'd make myself a little reference chart, and before I knew it I'd launched a blog. Whoops.
-
Indeed. That was partially my inspiration for kicking off this project in the first place.
I'd dug out some old sheets from Dom's Decals and noticed they all came with a helpful little key to the AoS numbers and bridge classes - something sorely lacking from the official Flames of War decal sets - so I thought I'd make myself a little reference chart, and before I knew it I'd launched a blog. Whoops.
Nice one. Dom certainly knows his stuff. Such a shame that it all became a bit too much for him.
Here's a list of transfers and marking changes for NW Europe. I'll have to dig for the Italy info:
4 Armd Bde
No organisational changes other than the remnants of 4 CLY from 7 Armd Div being amalgamated with 3 CLY on 29 July 1944 to become 3/4 CLY. 4 Armd Bde changed their serials to the new standard scheme at some point late 1944/early 1945.
5 Guards Armd Bde
No changes.
6 Guards Tank Bde
No changes, except for changing their serials in 1945 (an order that seems to have been only partially applied).
8 Armd Bde
24 Lancers disbanded 29th July 1944 and replaced by 13/18 Hussars from the disbanded 27 Armd Bde. They filled the same seniority-slot in the orbat, so 13/18 Hussars just adopted the markings of 24 Lancers. 8 Armd Bde changed their serials to the new standard scheme at some point late 1944/early 1945.
22 Armd Bde (7 Armd Div)
4 CLY transferred to 4 Armd Bde on 29 July 1944 (amalgamated with 3 CLY). Replaced by 5 RIDG, who became the senior regiment, forcing 1 RTR and 5 RTR to go down the list and repaint their markings.
27 Armd Bde
Disbanded 29 July 1944. 13/18 Hussars went to 8 Armd Bde, 1 ERY went to 33 Armd Bde and Staffs Yeo went to 79 Armd Div to become a Sherman DD Regt.
29 Armd Bde (11 Armd Div)
No changes.
30 Armd Bde (79 Armd Div)
Equipped with Sherman V Crab flail tanks. Orbat remained unchanged throughout the campaign: 22 Dragoons, 2 CLY (Westminster Dragoons), 1 Lothian & Border Yeomanry.
31 Army Tank Bde
The brigade was broken up in late August 1944, with 9 RTR going to 34 Army Tank Bde and 7 RTR for a time becoming an independent tank regiment. The brigade was then re-formed as an all-Crocodile brigade in September 1944 as part of 79 Armd Div (141 RAC had already been working semi-independently as the Army Group Crocodile Regiment). 141 RAC was eventually reunited with 7 RTR and in November was joined by 1 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. The order of seniority was 7 RTR - 1 F&FY - 141 RAC.
33 Armd Bde
148 RAC was disbanded on 29 July 1944, being replaced by 1 ERY from 27 Armd Bde. 1 ERY filled the middle seniority slot, so bumped 144 RAC into junior place, forcing a repaint of markings. The brigade repainted its markings in any case at some point between August and October 1944, to comply with the standardised serial scheme (50-53). The brigade was transferred to 79 Armd Div during the winter of 1944/45, was re-equipped with Buffalo II & IV and was increased to four regiments with the addition of 11 RTR. The markings scheme became VERY complicated (especially as 30 Armd Bde was already using the 50-53 serials in 79 Armd Div)... Seniority then was 4 RTR (renamed 144 RAC), 11 RTR, 1 Northants Yeo & 1 ERY.
34 Army Tank Bde
153 RAC was disbanded on 28th August 1944 and was replaced by 9 RTR from 31 Army Tank Bde. 9 RTR became the senior regiment and bumped 107 RAC and 147 RAC down the orbat, forcing them to repaint their markings.
-
Thanks for all that. Helpful and informative stuff as ever!
-
If you can do decals that would be great - the biggest challenge seems to be in printing the white bits.
-
Thanks for all that. Helpful and informative stuff as ever!
No worries! I'm glad to help you do what you do, so that I don't have to! ;)
I'll stick all the RA stuff on my blog (been meaning to do it for ages).
Something else re the 1st Polish Armoured Division is that they invariably painted the national 'PL' motoring sign (in black on a white oval) somewhere on the rear of the vehicle. The 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade didn't. The 1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade had the same style of marking with 'CS'. The Belgians instead had a national roundel. The Cloggies don't seem to have bothered with a national marking.
-
If you can do decals that would be great - the biggest challenge seems to be in printing the white bits.
I'm hoping, pipe-dream though it may be, that if I get all the design work done I may be able to get an actual decal manufacturer interested, and leave the actual technicalities of printing up to them.
Anyway, I've added Higher Formation insignia to the blog. I'm sure someone will tell me where I've gone wrong! It's mainly NW Europe so far - I haven't dared cover the CBI theatre yet.
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/formation-insignia-higher-formations.html
-
No worries! I'm glad to help you do what you do, so that I don't have to! ;)
I'll stick all the RA stuff on my blog (been meaning to do it for ages).
Something else re the 1st Polish Armoured Division is that they invariably painted the national 'PL' motoring sign (in black on a white oval) somewhere on the rear of the vehicle. The 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade didn't. The 1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade had the same style of marking with 'CS'. The Belgians instead had a national roundel. The Cloggies don't seem to have bothered with a national marking.
Keep it coming!
I'll be keeping a close eye on your blog - your post about the Churchills was a very interesting read.
-
I'm hoping, pipe-dream though it may be, that if I get all the design work done I may be able to get an actual decal manufacturer interested, and leave the actual technicalities of printing up to them.
Anyway, I've added Higher Formation insignia to the blog. I'm sure someone will tell me where I've gone wrong! It's mainly NW Europe so far - I haven't dared cover the CBI theatre yet.
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/formation-insignia-higher-formations.html
Nice! Hey, you've got IV Corps there, so that's a start! :) If you want them, I've drawn the XV Corps and XXXIII Corps signs on my Burma guide (which has now been updated) here: http://www.fireandfury.com/painting/burmaarmypaintingguide.pdf
The XIVth Army sign is also there - note that they used a circular form when painting it on vehicles and a shield when used as a uniform badge. For some reason they always used the Roman numerals when referring to XIVth Army.
Re the ones you've done: XII Corps' sign was normally on a black rectangle backing - vehicle sign and uniform badge the same.
-
Keep it coming!
I'll be keeping a close eye on your blog - your post about the Churchills was a very interesting read.
It's ok now I've corrected all the mistakes... ::)
That said, I've since found pics of 6th Guards Tanks vehicles still using the old markings just after the war's end.
-
It's ok now I've corrected all the mistakes... ::)
That said, I've since found pics of 6th Guards Tanks vehicles still using the old markings just after the war's end.
Bloody typical. "Fractal research", somebody on another forum said. Sounds about right.
-
Great stuff 👍
I believe it was 34th Tank Brigade that used the 2nd Army badge rather than 6th Guards though.
-
Great stuff 👍
I believe it was 34th Tank Brigade that used the 2nd Army badge rather than 6th Guards though.
Aye aye, already spotted that and updated accordingly. :)
-
Great stuff 👍
I believe it was 34th Tank Brigade that used the 2nd Army badge rather than 6th Guards though.
It was late, I'd been drinking, I slipped in the shower... ;)
-
Bloody typical. "Fractal research", somebody on another forum said. Sounds about right.
It certainly is. It's something of a 'forever task'.
-
If you are going to make decals is 28mm I will buy some. Barry
-
I'm very interested in this subject, but I'm sorry: there's no "menu to the left" when I open the link you provided? I'm on a laptop and still running Win 7.
-
I'm very interested in this subject, but I'm sorry: there's no "menu to the left" when I open the link you provided? I'm on a laptop and still running Win 7.
There's a little button at the top left that looks like three lines. That'll bring up the menu. Good point, because I wouldn't have known what that was, had I not recently got a Samsung phone.
-
I'm very interested in this subject, but I'm sorry: there's no "menu to the left" when I open the link you provided? I'm on a laptop and still running Win 7.
How odd. What internet browser are you using?
This is what it should look like:
-
This is great, perfect for a project I'm currently working on.
-
How odd. What internet browser are you using?
This is what it should look like:
I'm using the latest version of IE and I don't get that. I get the home page, but only that little 'menu' button at the top-left corner. When you press it the menu pops in from the left-hand side and overlays the home page (which darkens).
-
I'm using the latest version of IE and I don't get that. I get the home page, but only that little 'menu' button at the top-left corner. When you press it the menu pops in from the left-hand side and overlays the home page (which darkens).
Could be a screen width thing. What's your desktop resolution?
-
Could be a screen width thing. What's your desktop resolution?
Can I have a geography or history question...? :D
I'll have to ask IT Support (the wife). I get the same result when viewing from the work computer, though and that's a super-wide, high-resolution monitor.
-
I've tried it with Firefox, as well as on my wife's laptop with both IE and Firefox, but still get the same view:
It initially looks like this:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/IaS17S.png)
And when you press the menu button it looks like this:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/jhjsqD.png)
-
I've reduced the width of the main content - hopefully this lets the sidebar in.
-
I've reduced the width of the main content - hopefully this lets the sidebar in.
It works!!! :D :-*
-
Well done Squire - I had the same issue as Jemima Fawr, but sorted now for me also :)
-
Well done Squire - I had the same issue as Jemima Fawr, but sorted now for me also :)
You've just reminded me; I dug out the serials for the LVT-equipped 33rd Armoured Brigade for you a couple of months ago. I'll have to go back through our e-mails...
-
Well done Squire - I had the same issue as Jemima Fawr, but sorted now for me also :)
Good to know. Hopefully it should work for everyone now.
-
If you are going to make decals is 28mm I will buy some. Barry
I'm just playing around with test prints for now, but I'll see what I can do.
Is there a particular brigade/division you're after?
-
I've updated the Overview page a bit to include Royal Artillery markings. Further details will follow when I give them their own page.
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/british-tank-markings-overview.html
-
Nice.
Do you need the various RA code-letters/numbers, or do you already have that info?
One on the infantry divisions page: The 53rd (Welsh) Division sign (the 'Red Crown') was painted on a green square when it was used as a vehicle marking. The khaki rectangular backing was used when it was a uniform badge.
-
Nice.
Do you need the various RA code-letters/numbers, or do you already have that info?
One on the infantry divisions page: The 53rd (Welsh) Division sign (the 'Red Crown') was painted on a green square when it was used as a vehicle marking. The khaki rectangular backing was used when it was a uniform badge.
I think I have it all. A decent fellow on another forum sent me his old copy of Hodges' British Military Markings, and it's all in there. It's the original edition 1971 edition though so I suppose new info may have come to light since then!
What sort of green is it for the Welsh division? Dark like the modern Welsh Brigade?
-
I think I have it all. A decent fellow on another forum sent me his old copy of Hodges' British Military Markings, and it's all in there. It's the original edition 1971 edition though so I suppose new info may have come to light since then!
What sort of green is it for the Welsh division? Dark like the modern Welsh Brigade?
Great stuff! :)
It's the same medium-bottle-green shade they used for the 2nd brigade AoS markings.
-
As an aside, there was a push-bike in a militaria shop in Ste Mere-Eglise for many years that was fully-marked for 53 (Welsh) Recce Regiment, as if it was an armoured car :)
There was also an officer's suitcase formerly owned by an RWF officer in the Mont Ormel museum that had the 53 (W) Div sign painted on it, along with the AoS sign. He'd even repainted the AoS sign in accordance with the August 1944 unit-reshuffle! :)
-
SquireBev
well done acquiring a copy of Hodges which is pretty rare, and quite valuable in its 1971 first edition. That said, M. D. Taylor's revised edition, published by Cannon in 1994, is different in a good many places, revisiting some of Hodges work + adding new numbers from some lists that Hodges was unaware of.
there are a few areas of mystery still - including I think the numbering of some of the independent armoured and tank brigades in the middle east 1941-43.
EC
-
I completely forgot to correct and re-draw the 254th Indian Tank Brigade sign on my Burma guide before posting the revision, so ignore that one. Mine was taken from the Indian Armoured Corps official history, but it's wrong. The triangle should be inverted and the backing should be red, not yellow (perhaps the Indian Armoured Corps was looking at a faded badge?). When painted in its full form there was a red extension at the bottom of the triangle, with three black 'drops' (from the brigade motto 'Blood On The Tracks'), though this extension was apparently often left off - especially when worn as a badge.
-
This is a good primer for armour markings in the Far East http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/britain/junglearmourbookreviewab_1.html although Jems own information is pretty comprehensive. It only covers the Shermans but a lot can then be extrapolated to other vehicles.
Eclaireur - IIRC some of the relevant documentation for the ME is 'missing', whether lost, misfiled or destroyed is unclear.
-
well done acquiring a copy of Hodges which is pretty rare, and quite valuable in its 1971 first edition. That said, M. D. Taylor's revised edition, published by Cannon in 1994, is different in a good many places, revisiting some of Hodges work + adding new numbers from some lists that Hodges was unaware of.
I'm hoping if I drop enough hints on enough forums someone might point me to an old copy they no longer need... :D
Otherwise it's a trip to Aberystwyth when the National Library of Wales reopens, as I believe they've got a reference copy.
-
SquireBev - I have a copy of Taylor, let me know if there's something specific you're after. Another quite interesting one is 'British Tanks And Formations 1939-1945' by Malcolm A. Bellis, self published in 1987. It's a compendium of all sorts of information, though quite a slim volume so not an in depth study.
With regard to the middle east, things are complicated by the brief organisation of armoured divisions with two armoured brigades and the transition of tank brigades into armoured ones.
Bellis suggests: 'numerals 151-154 and 155-158 are purported to apply to senior and junior Tank brigades in an Army configuration. Green is reportedly preferred for Tank Brigades and red for Armoured brigades. However there is some evidence to suggest red being used by Tank Brigades'.
When I ask myself a question like 'what marking scheme would be used by 32nd Tank Brigade early in 1942 at Tobruk?' is just makes my head hurt!
Etranger - thanks for the tip on the Far East book, it looks great :D
-
SquireBev - I have a copy of Taylor, let me know if there's something specific you're after. Another quite interesting one is 'British Tanks And Formations 1939-1945' by Malcolm A. Bellis, self published in 1987. It's a compendium of all sorts of information, though quite a slim volume so not an in depth study.
Thanks for the offer! If I run up against any obstacles I'll know who to come to.
I've got Bellis' "Brigades of..." and "Divisions of the British Army" - both have proven pretty useful. I might see if I can track down a copy of this other booklet. Bellis' stuff doesn't seem to attract the same ludicrous markup as Hodges and Taylor.
-
For AoS, Vol 3 of Dick Taylor's 'Warpaint' series has a long list of serial numbers covering many theatres including the Middle East. The series is pricy but about as comprehensive as you'll find. https://www.scalemates.com/books/warpaint-green-series-3-dick-taylor--108484
There are 4 volumes, I've only got 1-3 at the moment. No. 4 will be bought when I'm financial enough!
-
The series is pricy
You're not kidding...
(https://i.imgur.com/sMesTcS.png)
Thankfully I've been lucky enough to get access to the AoS tables via a third party (ahemhem), as there's no way to justify these ridiculous prices. Each volume was £20 when it came out, which I don't think is unreasonable, but to charge ten times that for a second hand copy when it's not even ten years old is just ludicrous.
-
PRICEY?! :o
something of an under-statement. I know Dick Taylor is the go to guy these days, and I'm sure these books are great but there's something really wrong with that publishing model. Given there is clearly a big demand, maybe charge more for the books to start with + print more copies, so the author gets more for his efforts rather than the second hand bookseller raking it in?
The AFV publishing world seems to have plenty of precedents with this, eg with Squadron publications. Panzerwrecks seems to do a little better IMO in reprinting when the demand is there, thus making sure they and the authors get better paid for it.
Maybe I will check the British Library catalogue for Dick Taylor's books ...
EC
-
Maybe I will check the British Library catalogue for Dick Taylor's books ...
This is the only sensible option for most people.
It continues to baffle me that Osprey have never seen fit to do a series specifically on vehicle markings. There's clearly a market for it.
-
I've got a big library of images from the old Armoured Acorn website, with tank and AFV camo and markings in WW2 and on into the NATO Pact era. It covers just about everything Canadian, British and other Commonwealth armoured goodies in PDF form.
If anyone wants them, drop me your email on PM and I'll send them across.
-
You're not kidding...
(https://i.imgur.com/sMesTcS.png)
Thankfully I've been lucky enough to get access to the AoS tables via a third party (ahemhem), as there's no way to justify these ridiculous prices. Each volume was £20 when it came out, which I don't think is unreasonable, but to charge ten times that for a second hand copy when it's not even ten years old is just ludicrous.
That is ridiculous! I think my local shop still has a new copy of Vol 3 for around $50 Oz...
-
It continues to baffle me that Osprey have never seen fit to do a series specifically on vehicle markings. There's clearly a market for it.
Very true - an Osprey series would serve both AFV modellers and wargamers. It ought to have very good market potential,
EC
-
That is ridiculous! I think my local shop still has a new copy of Vol 3 for around $50 Oz...
Better get it snapped up PDQ!
-
Vol 4 seems more affordable. Have a look on Abebooks and Biblio.
-
I think some of the pricing on Amazon is driven by bots
I've found Bouchery The British Soldier vol 2 very good for markings - but it only covers NW Europe 44-45
Squire Bev - perhaps you should have a word with Osprey - if you have gathered the info then turning it into a book wouldn't be that big of a next step!
-
Vol 4 seems more affordable. Have a look on Abebooks and Biblio.
Volume 4 only covers post-war markings, alas. Possibly explains why it's less sought-after.
-
Volume 4 only covers post-war markings, alas. Possibly explains why it's less sought-after.
Ah, I did wonder.
-
Great job, SquireBev, that's a fantastic resource. Thanks for sharing.
I was going to ask if you'd seen the information on canadiansoldiers.com, then noticed that you referenced it in your sources ;)
-
A couple of things ... firstly I gave a link to this thread to someone at Osprey and they were very positive about the possibility of a series on AFV markings. 'Pushing at an open door' was the phrase used, saying they'd already thought about it, and also a series on aviation markings. So it could happen, but with the time needed to define the spec, commission, edit, and produce, it will be a year plus.
Second - one that might amuse you Squirebev, illustrates the idiosyncrasies of British tank markings
https://twitter.com/WW2Facts/status/1278682590724141061/photo/1
A Valentine of 50th RTR during the Tunisian campaign. It's got the 67 for junior armoured regiment in the first brigade of an armoured division (in the middle east), and the 23rd Armoured Brigade 'Liver Bird' emblem. Although this brigade deployed to the middle east as part of the 8th Armoured Division, by the time this photo was taken it had been operating as an independent armoured brigade for several months. So why not give it a number like 153 or 157 for a junior regiment in an independent armoured brigade?
And this one shows 46th RTR tank in January 1944. Same brigade (albeit with the brigade and AoS symbols switched around), still with the Middle East style AoS number, 86, for a regiment in an armoured division even though it's an independent brigade, and well after a number of the published sources suggest units operating in Italy had adopted the home numbering system (would be 52 in this case).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23rd_Armoured_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)#/media/File:The_British_Army_in_Italy_1944_NA11308.jpg
It's a puzzle!!
EC
-
The short answer is that probably they just hadn't had the time to get around to it, but as you note, being the British army there were always exceptions.
To add to the confusion, Bryan Perrett in Tanks Illustrated 21 - Allied Tanks in North Africa Page 17 shows what is meant to be a 40 RTR Valentine (Helen, then renamed Marg!)with the comment "the names of 50 RTR's tanks all began with the letter R whereas the Fortieth were allowed considerable latitude." If that's accurate, then this (Hood) is a 40RTR vehicle, not 50RTR. There is a very similar picture to yours in the same book of (presumably) 50RTR's 'Respond' with AoS of 67, so something odd was definitely going on. Sadly the censor has removed the AoS on the 40RTR vehicle.
23AB was also unusual in that in addition to 40 RTR (40), 46 RTR (86), and 50 RTR (67), after Second el Alamein 8RTR was added to the strength, which should therefore have taken the senior AoS of 40, which would bump the above numbers. I've got no idea what the AoS for the 4th armoured regiment in an AB is though!
23AB was marked as an 'Armoured Brigade' rather than an 'Army Tank Brigade', even though it was equipped with 'I' tanks, which would have another set of AoS numbers altogether.
Of course you can just paint them like the Valentines and Crusaders in this clip from Tunisia, with no visible AoS or divisional signs, and only the odd RAC flash. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuHITtS6ESQ They're probably 6AD, based on the shoulder flash on one of the officers, and what a mixed collection of MT on display too!
(EDIT - but see below)
-
7 Armoured Brigade were another case in point. They arrived in Burma with out-of-date AoS serials, even though they'd just spent weeks re-painting their tanks on board ship. Either they'd never received the new regs or they just chose to ignore them.
-
(https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/47/122/large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.16245426.548498701.1593870206-108119257.1587033627)(https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/879/729/large_NA_001139_2.jpg?_ga=2.84757789.548498701.1593870206-108119257.1587033627)
Front and back of the IWM original print. The allocation of the tank to 50RTR is not on the original. That of course just means that the AoS is for the third regiment in a 4 regiment AB, which should make this actually 46RTR in March 1943.....
-
Etranger - will happily take your word for it. Though now I admit you've got me puzzled by reference by a reference to an armoured brigade with four armoured regiments. What AoS number would that fourth regiment have under the Middle East scheme?
By my reckoning 23rd Armd Bde had 40, 46, and 50th RTRs in March 1943. So what was the other regiment?
EC
-
Etranger - will happily take your word for it. Though now I admit you've got me puzzled by reference by a reference to an armoured brigade with four armoured regiments. What AoS number would that fourth regiment have under the Middle East scheme?
By my reckoning 23rd Armd Bde had 40, 46, and 50th RTRs in March 1943. So what was the other regiment?
EC
It puzzled me too, but further research (ie Google :D) adds to the story. The reference is in the Perrett book I mentioned above & he mentions that 8RTR was attached after second El Alamein . I haven't dug up a definitive OOB for the period December 1942 to May 1943 to confirm that. 8RTR would be the senior regiment then, but it looks like it was a very temporary arrangement.
That mystery deepens when one looks at Regiments.org https://web.archive.org/web/20071010050226/http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-cav/rtr8.htm which has 8RTR handing over it's tanks to 46 & 50RTR in November 1942. Information that somewhat contradicts the wiki entry on
23AB:
" Before the Second Battle of El Alamein, the brigade was reinforced by the addition of the 8th Royal Tank Regiment to a strength of about 186 Valentines; the 5th RHA was exchanged for the 107th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery, with sixteen Bishop self-propelled guns. During that battle, most of the regiments supported the infantry divisions of XXX Corps. The 8th RTR was attached to the 1st South African Division, 40th RTR was attached to the 9th Australian Division and the 50th RTR was attached to 51st (Highland) Division. The brigade suffered heavily during the battle and it remained in Egypt to refit and reorganise. The 8th RTR was transferred to Palestine in early November, after having turned over all its surviving tanks while the 46th RTR was removed from the brigade, as was 107th Field Regiment.[5][7]"
Tunisia "In December 1942, elements of the brigade, now with the 11th (Queen's Westminsters) Battalion, King's Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC) under command, began to move forward but it saw no combat until it entered Tunisia on 17 February 1943. In the Tunisian Campaign the brigade served as an independent armoured formation under XXX Corps, Eighth Army and fought in most of the battles of the campaign. On 3 May, the 50th RTR was withdrawn to convert to M4 Sherman tanks. After the campaign, the 46th RTR was reassigned to the brigade, although it was still converting to Shermans and the 40th RTR began to convert to the new tank.[7]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23rd_Armoured_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)
A couple more snippets of information, including why 23AB kept it's 'divisional' AoS
"Because much of 8th Armoured Division had not arrived, 23rd Armoured Brigade was organised as an independent brigade group attached to 1st Armoured Division.[12] Without any desert training, and in the unfamiliar role of 'Infantry tanks', it was given a task in the second phase of Eighth Army's attack on El Mreir (the Second Battle of Ruweisat Ridge)." [ie it was still officially part of the incomplete 8AD, but attached temporarily to 1AD]
"After Alamein, 23rd Armoured Bde remained in Egypt to refit and did not take part in the pursuit. In December some of its units set off across North Africa, but 46th RTR was left behind, officially leaving the brigade on 1 December 1942. It remained in Egypt as part of Middle East Forces until after the conclusion of the Tunisian Campaign.[12][20]" [So 23AB was down to 2 tank regiments during this time]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Liverpool_Welsh
To summarise, post El Alamein, 40RTR, 50RTR remained in 23AB, but were refitting in Egypt & Palestine at this time. 46RTR was formally detached in December 1942, rejoining in May 1943 after the conclusion of the Tunisian campaign. It looks like 8RTR's tanks were reallocated to the other regiments in 23AB during the refit, which would coincide with the regiments.org timeline.
An 'H' named tank could be an ex 8th RTR one, reallocated and partially re-marked to 40 and 50RTR & would explain the apparently contradictory information thrown up by the photos. Of course, if 46RTR was not in the OOB in March 1943, (the date of the photo) the AoS should be 86 for the second regiment. Well it is the British Army ...
Anyone have the relevant Nafziger volume? The British Armies in World War II: An Organisational History, Volume One: British Armoured and Cavalry Divisions by David Hughes, Alan Philson, James Broshot, James Groshot. Published 1999. ISBN 9781585450503 or the unit histories?
50RTR has a published history https://www.lutterworth.com/title-info.php/title/50th-royal-tank-regiment
-
Some admirable detective wok there Etranger :)
The attachment to 1st AD underwrites the logic for keeping the armoured division AoS numbering rather than that of an independent brigade.
Your suggestion that the tank could have been passed on from 8th RTR, hence the name Hood, also makes very good sense. That '67' would be a hasty repainting and it does indeed look a little crude. Whether 8th Tanks or 46th had been taken out of the line, the 50th would however have remained the junior regiment in the brigade, using 67.
If I mange to return to the British Library in the coming months, I will see if they have Hamilton's book. It looks a little pricey to acquire for myself ...
EC
-
Some admirable detective wok there Etranger :)
The attachment to 1st AD underwrites the logic for keeping the armoured division AoS numbering rather than that of an independent brigade.
Your suggestion that the tank could have been passed on from 8th RTR, hence the name Hood, also makes very good sense. That '67' would be a hasty repainting and it does indeed look a little crude. Whether 8th Tanks or 46th had been taken out of the line, the 50th would however have remained the junior regiment in the brigade, using 67.
If I mange to return to the British Library in the coming months, I will see if they have Hamilton's book. It looks a little pricey to acquire for myself ...
EC
;D I suspect that the return of 46 RTR was anticipated so they wouldn't bother to change them anyway. I've got a pair of 1/35th Tamiya Valentines in the stash so I've got a reason to do all this research.
-
A couple of things ... firstly I gave a link to this thread to someone at Osprey and they were very positive about the possibility of a series on AFV markings. 'Pushing at an open door' was the phrase used, saying they'd already thought about it, and also a series on aviation markings. So it could happen, but with the time needed to define the spec, commission, edit, and produce, it will be a year plus.
Ooh, well that's encouraging!
I'd happily pay the usual Osprey RRP of around £20 for a decent, modern book on the subject, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
-
I'm trying to put together a sort of visual timeline for the independent armoured and tank brigades, to incorporate all the movement of regiments between brigades, but I'm driving myself up the wall trying to make sense of it.
Bellis' Brigades of the British Army helpfully lists all the dates that regiments joined and left the brigades, but doesn't indicate their seniority. Hodges does indicate seniority in as far as it lists the AoS numbers, but they don't always match with the other sources I've been using.
I suspect this might be a job for the summer hols. Term finishes in two weeks, so I'll be able to knuckle down to some research without constantly being badgered to do my actual job!
-
@squirebev
Not sure how your visual timeline of brigades is going but the Bellis booklet on tank formations that I mentioned earlier does have something of that type in it, if you need help.
Also @etranger I noticed this ...
https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1)
If you're still looking to paint those Valentines, 50th RTR with a name beginning with R and a properly painted 67 ! Not sure but is appears that the registration number might have been written across the squadron marking on the turret.
@squirebev I think you need to correct your webpage on 23rd Armoured brigade because you've got them in the 50-53 AoS sequence (an error, I imagine that came from that Flames of War article you referenced) whereas I think it's pretty clear that they adopted the Middle East numbering scheme.
EC
-
.....
Also @etranger I noticed this ...
https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1)
If you're still looking to paint those Valentines, 50th RTR with a name beginning with R and a properly painted 67 ! Not sure but is appears that the registration number might have been written across the squadron marking on the turret.
The top one is from the Tunisian sequence we discussed above. The registration number is seen in that position from time to time (on Crusaders too), but I'm don't know offhand if it can necessarily identify the unit but this should be 50RTR as you note...
-
@squirebev
Not sure how your visual timeline of brigades is going but the Bellis booklet on tank formations that I mentioned earlier does have something of that type in it, if you need help.
Also @etranger I noticed this ...
https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/bermicourt/status/1285864996585570304/photo/1)
If you're still looking to paint those Valentines, 50th RTR with a name beginning with R and a properly painted 67 ! Not sure but is appears that the registration number might have been written across the squadron marking on the turret.
@squirebev I think you need to correct your webpage on 23rd Armoured brigade because you've got them in the 50-53 AoS sequence (an error, I imagine that came from that Flames of War article you referenced) whereas I think it's pretty clear that they adopted the Middle East numbering scheme.
EC
Thanks. I do believe you're correct. This photo of a Sherman in Italy clearly shows an "86" serial:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/The_British_Army_in_Italy_1944_NA11308.jpg)
So I'll get that updated ASAP.
On the subject of Bellis, this little beauty turned up today:
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/110168899_10158583382650120_5267010493867925092_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=y0cckso6F3wAX-DEQAG&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=c066beffd733db1cf217d241a5daeb7a&oe=5F3E3419)
Full of useful info - bridge classifications, AoS serials for Corp and Army units, all sorts of stuff.
-
Added Airborne Division organisation and markings: https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/europe-airborne-divisions.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CnLQbBmp3pA/XxmWcJMCQBI/AAAAAAAACI4/UMgULPYU1_4aMpbCSZQuBuZR4ec2uTZ4wCLcBGAsYHQ/s2908/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BAirborne%2BDivision%2B-%2B1944-02.png)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zzQbSQwhTF8/XxmUzGdhH_I/AAAAAAAACIs/3Nq-7-9jOQwXuGnQhU_qd-3iXWJppnFAgCLcBGAsYHQ/s2907/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BAirborne%2BDivision%2B-%2B1944-01.png)
Open to feedback and corrections, as ever!
-
Cracking work!
Just having a look in Bouchery, had he doesn't list any of the differences between 1st and 6th AB you have, other than the recce regts, where he has 79 (in blue on maroon) for 6th Armoured Recce. His list which is titled as to imply for both AB divisions but basically follows your 6th AB values. I'm more inclined to believe you have done further research to split out the serials between the two divisions.
He does have the following additional ones
40 on blue red blue - RAOC HQ
and the following on REME blue, yellow, red, 47, 81, 85, 87 and 94, all as Airlanding Light Detachment REME
I'm just copying these - I don't know any more than that !
-
Thanks fred.
As ever, I'm wading through conflicting sources and trying to reconcile the differences as best I can. Bellis seems to concur with Bouchery that both divisions used the same serials, but Hodges & Taylor disagree.
I've just updated both diagrams again, based on a couple of pages that I've been sent from Rob van Meel's British Airborne Jeeps: Modifications and Markings, although he freely admits that a lot of the numbers he's assigned to the 6th Airborne are a "calcuated guess", so I've largely left them alone!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gMLBtfroUJw/XxnGSbCmvNI/AAAAAAAACJY/Yoct8QzF4MQh82gfhGqRtyqs89yoYiczwCLcBGAsYHQ/s2908/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BAirborne%2BDivision%2B-%2B1944-02.png)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VVcKxUPvlJU/Xxm_jxL2ISI/AAAAAAAACJE/gSGXtxN0QG83Aj5OOKsh1a2tVz14XYPkACLcBGAsYHQ/s2907/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BAirborne%2BDivision%2B-%2B1944-01.png)
-
Bellis, it's clear, was a weapons grade anorak. Thank heavens for people like him!
-
Bellis, it's clear, was a weapons grade anorak. Thank heavens for people like him!
Indeed. We'd be lost without anoraks!
Anyway, I've finally got somewhere with the Independent Armoured Brigade timeline...
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WuISJgSG9cY/XxtLrcE6JGI/AAAAAAAACKM/taFGVfHeG80njuu6eh0E--Gh02DbIHp-wCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BIndependent%2BArmoured%2BBrigades%2BTimeline-01.png)
-
That is a thing of true beauty :-*
One oddball for you: 'A' Squadron 43 Recce Regiment (43 (Wessex) Div) had a different AoS sign to the rest of the regiment, who had the usual '41' on sky blue over green. 'A' Squadron was lost at sea en route to Normandy and was replaced wholesale from another regiment in the UK. The new 'A' Sqn joined the regiment toward the end of the Normandy Campaign and had an AoS consisting of a diagonally-split bright green/yellow square (the colours of the Recce Corps) with '41' in black.
-
Very impressive work
-
And now, Corps Troops AoS serials, based on info in 21st Army Group Organisation & Markings by Bellis.
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/europe-higher-formation-organisation.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-n47DOkSwCEg/XxxS-eaTi-I/AAAAAAAACKo/oGzPMIAuvpsBTvLzrGLv-MuXM_-uN9IHwCLcBGAsYHQ/s2762/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BCorps%2B-%2B1944-01.png)
-
BEF Corps Troops, based on Taylor's Warpaint Vol. 3
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NB7njeOghVM/XzZryKmXVkI/AAAAAAAACMY/O1hv-BVjkiQ6KQ8ofpdu5KRRkHU7PrqMgCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BCorps%2B-%2B1940-01.png)
Comments, corrections, feedback etc etc - keep it coming.
-
And now, at the risk of opening a massive can of worms regarding errors and omissons, my first attempt at diagrams for the 79th Armoured Division. Just snapshots for now - I'm still working on a timeline to show regiment and brigade movements, like the one for independent brigades posted on the previous page.
If anyone can offer any more sources regarding regiment movements, please do! I'm getting bogged down flicking between Bellis booklets, with some regiments either being in two places at once, or disappearing completely!
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/79th-armoured-division.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TYNEMIignCk/XzfS1_ibsMI/AAAAAAAACM0/vppMcETIVcwAvENY7rJv7YrkZFVCw_NPwCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2B79th%2BArmoured%2BDivision%2B-%2BJune%2B1944-01.png)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kw51jAwxs1U/XzfS18GwfCI/AAAAAAAACM4/VpR1AKtKPfID7Cx5W55NQ9tTOi5GBaZoACLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2B79th%2BArmoured%2BDivision%2B-%2BNov%2B1944-01.png)
-
Well, here goes nothing...
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-btiB4vUmSds/XzgJwenlJMI/AAAAAAAACNI/PoOmzyBmp4gF5bzwIOs6R5znxbf53TmyACLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2B79th%2BArmoured%2BDivision%2BTimeline-01.png)
-
Excellent work once again!
I'll try to dig out the information again, but 33rd Armoured Brigade changed its serials (again!) on arrival in 79th Armoured Division, as by that time they were using the 50-53 scheme and they clashed with those of 30th Armoured Brigade. They then used serials 54+.
As you say, units come and go between brigades willy-nilly and I'm not sure if a lot of these were mere 'attachments' rather than permanent assignments. I get exactly the same problem trying to track the movement of Indian Army units between brigades and divisions.
Speaking of which, I've found the official 1945 serials for an Indian Tank Brigade and I've drawn the correct version of the 254th Indian Tank Brigade badge, so will post those later.
-
As you say, units come and go between brigades willy-nilly and I'm not sure if a lot of these were mere 'attachments' rather than permanent assignments. I get exactly the same problem trying to track the movement of Indian Army units between brigades and divisions.
Indeed. I started off trying to colour-code it according to seniority, but soon realised I was on a hiding to nothing.
At some point I'll muster the motiviation to add AoS serials to the timeline itself. Honest...
-
Cracking job and thank you for the taken effort!
-
Here's one amendment for the list: 144 RAC was re-named as 4 RTR on 1st March 1945 and continued to be equipped with Buffalo. 144 RAC therefore ceased to exist from that point forth and was not reformed.
-
Here's the scheme for an Indian Tank Brigade from 1944. 254th Indian Tank Brigade were initially using a different system (3, 4, 5, 6 for the Bde HQ and Tk Regts), but adopted this scheme at the end of operations in 1945:
Bde HQ - 50 on red-over-yellow
1st Tk Regt - 51 on red-over-yellow
2nd Tk Regt - 52 on red-over-yellow
3rd Tk Regt - 53 on red-over-yellow
Light Tk Regt (if present) - 37 on red-over-yellow
Motor Bn - 54 on red
Engineer Field Squadron - 41 on cobalt blue
Armoured Delivery Sqn - 38 on red-over-yellow
Independent Bridging Tp - 55 on red-over-yellow
Tk Workshop Coy - 98 on red-over-yellow-over-blue
Tk Tps Workshop - 134 on red-over-yellow-over-blue
Tk Bde Recovery Coy - 101 on red-over-yellow-over-blue
Ordnance Fd Park - 97 on blue/red/blue
Tk Transporter Coy - 47 on red-over-green
General Transport Coy - 56 on red-over-green
Provosts - 83 on black
Fd Post Office - 44 on black
(IEME and signals detachments assigned to Bde HQ and IEME LADs assigned to Tk Regts had the same serials, though with their corps colours)
Some units were using plain red squares instead of red-over-yellow. Squadron signs were a nightmare...
-
Cracking work. Great to see all this presented so clearly.
Seeing 1st Tank Brigade there, with its Grant CDLs, someone must have thought these were going to be really useful to had gone to the trouble of converting a whole brigade. I only recall reading about the odd use of them, and then as guide lights for night operations. Where they ever used as intended?
-
Cracking work. Great to see all this presented so clearly.
Seeing 1st Tank Brigade there, with its Grant CDLs, someone must have thought these were going to be really useful to had gone to the trouble of converting a whole brigade. I only recall reading about the odd use of them, and then as guide lights for night operations. Where they ever used as intended?
The US Army had a brigade-sized force of them as well. Their effects were thought to be so severe that their release was only to be authorised at the highest level, along with things like gas and nuclear weapons! In the event, they were used in an attempt to blind defenders during the Rhine crossing, but proved to do little other than be massive mortar-magnets.
However, they did prove to be extremely useful in their mission to defend the Nijmegen bridges against attack by midget submarines. The strange light-effect was far more effective at illuminating underwater objects than standard searchlights.
-
Thanks, I did a bit of reading up in them after posting my question. It does seem they were too secret to be used, but then not that effective. The wiki article notes they were used at Remagen as well to help defend the bridge against various under water attacks. Strange that they code name ended up being rather close to what they were mainly used as.
It does also indicate the material superiority of the Allies that they could have 2 brigades of tanks (and crews) that ultimately weren’t used. It’s hard to imagine the Germans ever being close to this, they would have been sending them out to fight as gun tanks. With the way most rules are focused on vehicle stats and points the overall allied material superiority just doesn’t get factored in.
-
Yes indeed. I've never really understood why they were considered to be a 'war-winner' in the first place to attract such a high level of investment, only then to be (largely) binned before they'd seen any action.
Funnily enough, the American ones were based only about 5 miles from where I'm sitting in west Wales, prior to being embarked for Normandy and the farmers have occasionally found various bits of Lee dumped in various corners of their land (there is a water-filled quarry full of softskin vehicles and other kit - I wonder if there's a CDL in there as well? :) ).
-
One of my idler ponderings is what effect a CDL Brigade would have on the Germans' much vaunted IR equipment? I suspect that there would be some very serious damage done to the IR capability.
-
Here's one amendment for the list: 144 RAC was re-named as 4 RTR on 1st March 1945 and continued to be equipped with Buffalo. 144 RAC therefore ceased to exist from that point forth and was not reformed.
I'll see if I can squeeze it in!
-
AGRAs!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AhklY5CvMyc/X0onrXIc-9I/AAAAAAAACOc/X38ZDXidkCkuIaheVM10LFGusUX87sxGQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BAGRAs%2B-%2B1944-01.png)
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/europe-higher-formation-organisation.html
-
Excellent!
-
Nice. And this is why you can never have too much artillery when playing as the British in NWE!
-
Nice. And this is why you can never have too much artillery when playing as the British in NWE!
It could be a fun addition to a game.
Roll for your off-board artillery and then roll again to determine just how much you get.
1-2 gets you a field regiment, 3-4 gets you a couple of mediums, 5-6 gets you an entire AGRA and you just sweep everything off the table and into the bin.
-
Yeah, I've done games with entire AGRAs :)
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2006.php
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2007.php
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/carpiquetaar.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/conventions/bovington2010.php
-
Blimey. Impressive stuff!
-
Oh and as I'm here, sneak peak of tomorrow's update:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RWpOj5IbFSY/X0rVWARlatI/AAAAAAAACO0/9VyCYmjZewoBjmaFVj7NjsJRF2ti8biCQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BEurope%2B-%2BSpecial%2BService%2BGroup%2B-%2B1944-01.png)
-
Very nice. One thing though - the Royal Marine Armoured Support Group had two regiments (1 & 2) and one independent battery (5 Battery). 1 Regt comprised 1 & 2 Batteries and 2 Regt comprised 3 & 4 Batteries.
-
Very nice. One thing though - the Royal Marine Armoured Support Group had two regiments (1 & 2) and one independent battery (5 Battery). 1 Regt comprised 1 & 2 Batteries and 2 Regt comprised 3 & 4 Batteries.
Well spotted! I'd actually already put that in but it must have been after I'd exported the image!
It should be correct now if you refresh the page. Hopefully.
-
Yep, all looking good! :)
-
what a goldmine of information, thanks for putting it together
-
what a goldmine of information, thanks for putting it together
Glad to be of service!
I've updated the Higher Formations Insignia page today:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uMslUwZPQ-4/X00edvu0GyI/AAAAAAAACPk/5oXlzzo1O4AHRZ3Jgur2Rdof4RR0FGh2gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BHigher%2BFormation%2BInsignia-01.png)
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/formation-insignia-higher-formations.html
-
Excellent! Here are some more for ya (feel free to nick):
XV Corps (the Vs could alternatively be black - both were seen):
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/OGjnUh.jpg)
XXXIII Corps:
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1356/Afi7Ao.gif)
Variant of XIVth Army badge painted on vehicles (the shield-shaped badge was used as a uniform patch, but rarely used as a vehicle sign):
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/924/i1NgkD.jpg)
(Ignore the white squares around them - that's simply the background colour)
-
Brill, thanks. I've just about got room for another two Corps insignia, so that's perfect!
-
Brill, thanks. I've just about got room for another two Corps insignia, so that's perfect!
Oh, both of those are India, Burma 1943-45. I've also got XXXIV Corps here somewhere (India 1944-45)
You can also add Burma to the list for IV Corps.
Here's another one for you. The 81st and 82nd (West African) Divisions, along with the 11th (East African) Division, were classed as 'British' divisions and followed the British divisional numbering sequence, so you could happily include them in your British division list. This is the 81st (West African) Division badge, as painted on vehicles, with a square background. When worn as a patch it was circular (fought in Burma 1943-45):
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/NISCOM.jpg)
-
Howzat?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H0zgLdvuoGo/X05uqphmUnI/AAAAAAAACPw/0tF_3Do9uiMPY0LSDNUQtCztkhV38LU5ACLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BHigher%2BFormation%2BInsignia-01.png)
-
I'm not dead, honest!
Another timeline - this time covering the armoured regiments and motor battalions of armoured divisions in NW Europe and Italy.
Pieced together from various sources but mostly from the excellent OOB documents to be found here: https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/documents/
Comments, feedback, corrections, etc all welcome, as ever.
I acknowledge that my information on the South African and Polish divisions may be a bit shaky, so I'd particularly welcome any feedback on these units in particular.
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/europe-armoured-divisions.html
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rNRC2B9RVT0/X2nZbR2kCAI/AAAAAAAACRs/J3vpGy0JfqQelIAxz1OZzXO5oXZ1SNCzQCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BArmoured%2BDivisions%2BTimeline-01.png)
-
Ah @SquireBev, bless you, continuing the Lord's work!
One thought though... Did the order of seniority not change sometimes? Looking at the 22nd Armoured Brigade, when the 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards joined, I believe they became the senior regiment. Certainly the 5th Tanks ended the war with blue markings, having been shunted down from yellow, and I assume that 1st Tanks changed from red markings to yellow. The 5th Skins came into the brigade in early August 1944 I think,
EC
-
Ah @SquireBev, bless you, continuing the Lord's work!
One thought though... Did the order of seniority not change sometimes? Looking at the 22nd Armoured Brigade, when the 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards joined, I believe they became the senior regiment. Certainly the 5th Tanks ended the war with blue markings, having been shunted down from yellow, and I assume that 1st Tanks changed from red markings to yellow. The 5th Skins came into the brigade in early August 1944 I think,
EC
Excellent stuff!
Yes, I concur with Eclaireur and we did discuss it earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, as regiments were shuffled around they potentially upset the seniority of regiments within brigade and everyone then had to repaint their markings. The order of seniority was:
Household Cavalry (never brigaded in any case during WW2)
Dragoon Guards (which included the Carabiniers - seniority by number)
Line Cavalry (Dragoons, Lancers & Hussars - seniority by number)
Regular & TA RTR Regiments (1-12 RTR - seniority by number)
Yeomanry Regiments (seniority by date of formation)
War-Emergency RTR Regiments (40-51 RTR - seniority by number)
RAC Regiments (seniority by number)
Indian Cavalry Regiments (seniority by number)
-
Spot-on with the Poles! :D
-
I've had a look back through the thread and the NW Europe re-shuffles are covered on page 2 of this discussion. All the info is there for who changed their markings and when.
[edited to add]
Here are the relevant bits:
22 Armd Bde (7 Armd Div)
4 CLY transferred to 4 Armd Bde on 29 July 1944 (amalgamated with 3 CLY). Replaced by 5 RIDG, who became the senior regiment, forcing 1 RTR and 5 RTR to go down the list and repaint their markings.
31 Army Tank Bde
The brigade was broken up in late August 1944, with 9 RTR going to 34 Army Tank Bde and 7 RTR for a time becoming an independent tank regiment. The brigade was then re-formed as an all-Crocodile brigade in September 1944 as part of 79 Armd Div (141 RAC had already been working semi-independently as the Army Group Crocodile Regiment). 141 RAC was eventually reunited with 7 RTR and in November was joined by 1 Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. The order of seniority was 7 RTR - 1 F&FY - 141 RAC.
33 Armd Bde
148 RAC was disbanded on 29 July 1944, being replaced by 1 ERY from 27 Armd Bde. 1 ERY filled the middle seniority slot, so bumped 144 RAC into junior place, forcing a repaint of markings. The brigade repainted its markings in any case at some point between August and October 1944, to comply with the standardised serial scheme (50-53).
The brigade was transferred to 79 Armd Div during the winter of 1944/45, was re-equipped with Buffalo II & IV and was increased to four regiments with the addition of 11 RTR. 144 RAC was also then re-badged as 4 RTR, to become the senior regiment in the brigade! Seniority then was 4 RTR (created from 144 RAC), 11 RTR, 1 Northants Yeo & 1 ERY. The markings scheme was further complicated as 30 Armd Bde was already using the 50-53 serials in 79 Armd Div... They still used red AoS squares, but adopted non-standard serials: 11 RTR briefly had '54' and white squadron signs (also seen with red signs) as an independent regiment under HQ 79th Armoured Division, but later changed to '67' and yellow signs when transferred to 33rd Armoured Brigade. 4 RTR seems to have had '55' and red squadron signs, but I can't find any AoS details for 1 NY or 1 ERY. Just to add a further embuggerance: the Staffs Yeomanry replaced 1 ERY in the brigade in the last week of April 1945 and were senior to the Northants Yeomanry, so bumped them down the list... This is so late in the war that it can probably be ignored... ::) It is interesting that 1 NY started the campaign as the senior of three regiments in the brigade, but ended it as the junior of four regiments... I just love the British Army... lol
34 Army Tank Bde
153 RAC was disbanded on 28th August 1944 and was replaced by 9 RTR from 31 Army Tank Bde. 9 RTR became the senior regiment and bumped 107 RAC and 147 RAC down the orbat, forcing them to repaint their markings.
-
Curiouser and curiouser... It seems that 1 NY and 1 ERY painted their old 51 & 52 serials on their Buffalos, even after the move to 79th Armoured Division and even though those serials were already in use by 30th Armoured Brigade within that division! Utterly baffling. ??? ::)
-
JF,
I suspect the 79th Armoured Division puzzlement results from it acquiring a second armoured brigade.
But even so, if you look back to the period when armoured division organisation had two armoured brigades the AoS numbers were 51-53 (on red) for armoured regiments in its senior brigade and in the junior brigade (if based in UK) were 61-63, on a green background. 7th Armoured Division also had a second armoured brigade at this time (1941), but with distinct, Middle East, AoS numbers.
So for some reason in late 1944, 55-57 emerged as AoS numbers for 79th Armoured Div's second brigade. 4 RTR took 55 as the senior regiment. Why they didn't revert to the earlier numbering scheme for a junior armoured brigade is a mystery!
EC
-
Yes, very true, but they seem to have been a right bugger's muddle: 55, 54 (changing to 67), 51 and 52! ??? :o
-
It must have confused German Intelligence!
Mark, could you guess as to how long it might take for the changes to be physically made? Presumably that is at least in part a function of the availability of time and paint; and vehicle transfers between units (& the RSM's wrath!) but any delay might help to explain some of the oddities seen in photos etc.
Eclaireur will recall the discussion we had earlier about the AoS on Valentines in Tunisia, where similar issues came up.
-
It must have confused German Intelligence!
Mark, could you guess as to how long it might take for the changes to be physically made? Presumably that is at least in part a function of the availability of time and paint; and vehicle transfers between units (& the RSM's wrath!) but any delay might help to explain some of the oddities seen in photos etc.
Eclaireur will recall the discussion we had earlier about the AoS on Valentines in Tunisia, where similar issues came up.
Armoured units in NW Europe usually came out of the line for a couple of days every couple of weeks (i.e. between operations and during other operational lulls) and the Sgt Majors would invariably make the 'rest' as miserable as possible, so they seem to have painted up replacement vehicles, new markings and captured vehicles relatively quickly. In other theatres not so much... I'm currently trying to track organisational changes in the Indian Tank Brigades and it's clear that they frequently didn't bother repainting very much, or simply painted out the old markings and left it at that! :)
-
Excellent stuff!
Yes, I concur with Eclaireur and we did discuss it earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, as regiments were shuffled around they potentially upset the seniority of regiments within brigade and everyone then had to repaint their markings. The order of seniority was:
Household Cavalry (never brigaded in any case during WW2)
Dragoon Guards (which included the Carabiniers - seniority by number)
Line Cavalry (Dragoons, Lancers & Hussars - seniority by number)
Regular & TA RTR Regiments (1-12 RTR - seniority by number)
Yeomanry Regiments (seniority by date of formation)
War-Emergency RTR Regiments (40-51 RTR - seniority by number)
RAC Regiments (seniority by number)
Indian Cavalry Regiments (seniority by number)
Thanks for this!
One possible spanner in the works, and I can't recall if it was on here or another forum, but I've also been told that RAC regiments converted from Infantry regiments would have kept the seniority of the original infantry regiment, and so it's not always as simple as numerical order.
Is this the case?
-
I've also been told that RAC regiments converted from Infantry regiments would have kept the seniority of the original infantry regiment
I don't think that's right. If you look at the RTR regiments that were converted from TA infantry battalions you see that 40 & 46th RTR, which were grown out the Kings Regiment ranked ahead in armoured brigade seniority of 50th RTR which traced back to the Gloucester Regiment. The original regimental seniority of those infantry regiments was the other way around - the Kings coming from the 8th Foot, and Gloucesters from the 6th.
EC
-
I don't think that's right. If you look at the RTR regiments that were converted from TA infantry battalions you see that 40 & 46th RTR, which were grown out the Kings Regiment ranked ahead in armoured brigade seniority of 50th RTR which traced back to the Gloucester Regiment. The original regimental seniority of those infantry regiments was the other way around - the Kings coming from the 8th Foot, and Gloucesters from the 6th.
EC
Righto, I'll stick with numerical order then!
I now can't find the conversation in which I was told otherwise, anyway.
-
Righto, I'll stick with numerical order then!
I now can't find the conversation in which I was told otherwise, anyway.
They certainly were lined up in order of precedence at the moment of creation (so the senior regiment would be given the lower number if converted to RAC at the same time as other regiments), but once they were given an RAC number their previous regimental affiliations were ignored in terms of precedence. The same was true of ex-infantry and Yeomanry RA regiments; they just lined up in regimental number order.
-
They certainly were lined up in order of precedence at the moment of creation (so the senior regiment would be given the lower number if converted to RAC at the same time as other regiments), but once they were given an RAC number their previous regimental affiliations were ignored in terms of precedence. The same was true of ex-infantry and Yeomanry RA regiments; they just lined up in regimental number order.
Brill, thanks.
Updated:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wA4w8OjFRLI/X2toYN7Q7OI/AAAAAAAACR8/zeYWgzwTB3gVQoA5M1D1GjN8UtdphHCbACLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BArmoured%2BDivisions%2BTimeline-01.png)
-
Ace! Again, thanks for doing this, so we don't have to! :D
I've been doing a lot of research and revision on the Burma Front just lately. So disregard my Burma painting guide for the moment, as it's still wrong in a few areas and is going to be completely rewritten. 7th Armoured Brigade and 50th Indian Tank Brigade are on my blog in the corrected form. 254th Indian Tank Brigade will be up soon, to be followed by 255th Indian Tank Brigade.
-
Apparently MMP Books are in the process of reprinting Taylor's Warpaint series. Finally some good news in 2020!
http://mmpbooks.biz/ksiazki/30
-
Excellent! The completist in me needs Vol 4. Some of their other titles are also good reference works, eg the one on the Valentine.
-
Added Commonwealth Infantry insignia. I'm afraid I'm still neglecting the Far East - sorry Jemima! I will get around to it, honest.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-D3JeLXUn930/X4MvVVJ8sLI/AAAAAAAACTA/jPTGrCfhxE0i2mqUvsVVRvzEmAowdfD7ACLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/UK%2B-%2BDivision%2BInsignia%2B-%2BCommonwealth%2Band%2BEmpire%2BInfantry-01.png)
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/divisional-insignia-infantry-formations.html
-
No worries! I contradict myself with every bit of new research anyway...
One observation re 3rd Canadian Division - the colour of their badge was 'French Grey', which was a very bluish shade. The original military 'French Grey' was the light blue colour worn by British cavalry on tropical service, being a mixture of blue and white fibres. So I'd make it more of a greyish pale blue shade.
-
Does anyone have any idea of the insignia for the short lived Australian 1st Armoured Division?
-
Does anyone have any idea of the insignia for the short lived Australian 1st Armoured Division?
Wasn't it a WW1 tank silhouette? Like the RTR arm-badge?
-
Wasn't it a WW1 tank silhouette? Like the RTR arm-badge?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Headquarters_1st_Aust_Armoured_Division_1941-1943.png)
Arm patch, according to wiki anyway...
-
And a nice pic or two of a 1AAD Grant.
(https://www.worldwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/army-photo-released-to-press-on-or-around-bald-hill-exercise-1024x1024.jpg)
(https://www.worldwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/article-published-after-the-1-australian-armoured-division-manoeuvres.jpg)
from https://www.worldwars.com/bald-hill-exercise-1st-australian-armoured-division/
-
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Headquarters_1st_Aust_Armoured_Division_1941-1943.png)
Arm patch, according to wiki anyway...
Cheers! The old grey cells weren't far off! :)
-
Ah, I had a look to see what the 2/6th Armoured Regt Stuarts at Buna had as markings; it was an armoured arm holding a battleaxe (white on black), but the unit patch was the WW1 tank badge as above, but on a diagonally-split red/green backing. From further reading, it seems that the div sign was the arm with battleaxe, but the individual regiments wore the WW1 tank badge with different coloured backings.
-
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/z562va.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/922/awQ4wo.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/923/ipRPqD.jpg)
-
Ah, I had a look to see what the 2/6th Armoured Regt Stuarts at Buna had as markings; it was an armoured arm holding a battleaxe (white on black), but the unit patch was the WW1 tank badge as above, but on a diagonally-split red/green backing. From further reading, it seems that the div sign was the arm with battleaxe, but the individual regiments wore the WW1 tank badge with different coloured backings.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/2_6th_Aust_Armoured_Regiment_1941-1943.png)
from wiki again. More on the Buna Stuarts here http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m3inactionph_1.htm including description of tank markings.
With the infantry & the cavalry regiments that traced their lineage back to the WWI AIF (or earlier) they often took the unit insignia from the ancestral formation, so a diagonal or horizontally split shoulder patch was common.
-
Blimey chaps! Thank you!
Unusually I hadn't thought of looking on Wikipedia, it just seemed too obscure...
-
Although I wouldn't use Wiki as the only primary source, for non-controversial topics it usually has useful information and there are typically links to references.
-
Although I wouldn't use Wiki as the only primary source, for non-controversial topics it usually has useful information and there are typically links to references.
+1
-
A most excellent resource! Since I move from BEF to N. Africa to Normandy/Europe...this helps with painstaking adventure of looking up stuff. I can't imaging the may hours vested. Thanks again for the resource.
-
A most excellent resource! Since I move from BEF to N. Africa to Normandy/Europe...this helps with painstaking adventure of looking up stuff. I can't imaging the may hours vested. Thanks again for the resource.
Happy to help!
-
Bit of a shameless plug, but I've started a Twitter account to run alongside the website: https://twitter.com/squire_bev
I thought it'd be useful to have one central place to post updates, and I'll also be posting brief histories of particular units and formations, along with snapshots of their structure and markings.
-
Paging SquireBev!
I'm just looking at your 79th Armoured Division timeline and trying to puzzle out some stuff on Buffalo AoS markings. A penny for your thoughts ...
A couple of the commercial decal makers do sets for 11 RTR Buffalos in the Walcheren operation in November 1944. They show senior regiment (red) squadron marking and an AoS of 67 on red or, in the case of another commercially available set, a 54 on red.
Seems odd - either to have the 67 distinctive of the Middle East. Also odd to have the 67 or 54 with senior regiment markings, when neither AoS number went with that colour in their usual schemes.
Later when the 144 RAC regiment becomes the re-born 4 RTR, it also becomes a senior regiment in its brigade, but with an AoS of 55 on red, which at least does make sense as a legacy home service numbering scheme for the senior regiment in the second armoured brigade of an armoured division (from 1941). I have discussed this offline with Jemima Fawr and we never came to hard and fast conclusions.
Would be most interested in your view,
EC
-
I went with 1232 in light blue for mine lol
-
We did come to a hard and fast conclusion that it was sodding baffling... :D
-
I aten't dead!
After a long hiatus I've managed to pull my finger out and write a separate page for Royal Artillery tactical markings:
https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/royal-artillery-tactical-signs.html
Comments, corrections, feedback etc all welcome!
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2MO-ot3Nozs/YCD_H9j0HSI/AAAAAAAACZ8/LXxuF8lxlNAa_cjzXWr38xlZrv0CA2XcwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1359/Royal%2BArtillery%2BBattery%2BMarkings%2BExamples-01.png)
-
Excellent as always! :)
-
You've done a HUGE amount of work!
duly bookmarked
-
Very fine work sir!
Cheers
Matt
-
From the macro to the micro. I turned up this interesting site for 8RB, the motor battalion in 11AD. I hadn't previously realised that they didn't use A-D coys's but E (support), F, G, and H for the motor coys. Tac markings were in the usual green, but with platoon numbers etc within. http://8thriflebrigade.co.uk/vehicles-and-weapons/ with some nice photos.
-
From the macro to the micro. I turned up this interesting site for 8RB, the motor battalion in 11AD. I hadn't previously realised that they didn't use A-D coys's but E (support), F, G, and H for the motor coys. Tac markings were in the usual green, but with platoon numbers etc within. http://8thriflebrigade.co.uk/vehicles-and-weapons/ with some nice photos.
Thanks for that. I didn't know what letters 8 RB used, but I did know that the RB gave all of their companies a unique letter, rather like the batteries of the RHA. 1 RB had A, B, & I Companies - I don't know if they used a letter for their Support Company.
-
It's been a bit of a nightmare to collate, but here's my first attempt at a timeline for the North African campaign.
Feedback and corrections welcome as ever.
If anyone can shed any more light on the 4th and 7th Armoured Brigades in 1940-41 I'd be very grateful, as I'm sure the 7th and 8th Hussars couldn't be in two places at once!
Apologies for the enormous image size. You might have to open them in a new tab to view them properly.
Middle East - Armoured Divisions (http://'https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/p/middle-east-armoured-divisions.html')
(https://i.imgur.com/hd55bE4.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/aOOPlRA.png)
-
Good to see you're back with a bang! :D
I think you may need to find a way to make those screens render larger on the page. I'm finding it hard to magnify them to the point of legibility
EC
-
Grand work so far!
I do however await your descent into madness when you start on the far east...
-
Grand work so far!
I do however await your descent into madness when you start on the far east...
It hasn't done me any harm! I'm completely hatstand and my pet walrus agrees, but then he's a conifer, so what would he know?
-
Good to see you're back with a bang! :D
I think you may need to find a way to make those screens render larger on the page. I'm finding it hard to magnify them to the point of legibility
EC
Yes. Apologies. Blogger seems to hate large images. If you follow the Imgur links you should find larger versions, but even that doesn't always work, if you're on mobile.
I'll see what else I can do. Maybe a PDF.
-
Thanks matey :)
-
Very helpful,thanks.
-
Grand work so far!
I do however await your descent into madness when you start on the far east...
My current plan of sticking my fingers in my ears and repeating "there were no tanks in the far east" seems to be working so far.
-
It hasn't done me any harm! I'm completely hatstand and my pet walrus agrees, but then he's a conifer, so what would he know?
Perhaps not, but thanks to your endeavours, I at least know how to mark up my solitary Lee for Burma 44/45... it's the rest of the vehicles I'll struggle with (such as they are, couple of Jeeps and perhaps a truck or two... don't think elephants and mules had markings applied?) Wibble.
My current plan of sticking my fingers in my ears and repeating "there were no tanks in the far east" seems to be working so far.
You are General A.E. Percival and I claim my £5.
Genuinely seems to be a bit of a blank, particularly the early campaigns (perhaps because they followed Indian Army regulations, rather than British conventions?) at present I'm considering just using some roughly equivalent AoS markings from the desert/ UK of the right time period, since it seems as good as anything else in the absence of anything approaching a proper source...
-
Not a bad plan as 7th Armoured Brigade at least were using their Western Desert marking schemes, AoS etc
-
don't think elephants and mules had markings applied?) Wibble.
Never say never... 81st (West African) Division received a delivery by air of a herd of white bullocks, dyed Jungle Green...
-
Never say never... 81st (West African) Division received a delivery by air of a herd of white bullocks, dyed Jungle Green...
...which was standard practice in the British Army even back in WWI, with the Scots Greys (amongst others) dying their grey horses drab colours to make them less of a target.
-
...which was standard practice in the British Army even back in WWI, with the Scots Greys (amongst others) dying their grey horses drab colours to make them less of a target.
It makes you proud to be British. :D
-
Might have bitten off more than I can chew here, but I've started on an overall timeline of armoured divisions and brigades, showing composition, commanders, seniority, and theatre. Bit more detailed than the previous timelines I've done.
-
Reckon I can incorporate the AoS serials too...
-
And you thought the Far East would send you mad... ;D lol
-
Hi, SquireBev and thanks for this fantastic resource you've created!
I'm looking for something pretty specific - maybe you can help me out? What was used on vehicles for 8th Army's (more specifically XXX Corps') RASC bridging company? I'm specifically looking for Sicily, so July 1943 if that makes a difference. I'm trying to figure out what markings to put on the lorries supporting my RCE Bailey Bridge project!
I figure I could use markings for 2nd Field Park Company RCE, but if I understand the logistics, the bridge parts would be delivered to the bridging site by XXX Corps bridging company. But I'd be fine with being corrected if I am wrong!
Best,
Will
-
Hi, SquireBev and thanks for this fantastic resource you've created!
I'm looking for something pretty specific - maybe you can help me out? What was used on vehicles for 8th Army's (more specifically XXX Corps') RASC bridging company? I'm specifically looking for Sicily, so July 1943 if that makes a difference. I'm trying to figure out what markings to put on the lorries supporting my RCE Bailey Bridge project!
I figure I could use markings for 2nd Field Park Company RCE, but if I understand the logistics, the bridge parts would be delivered to the bridging site by XXX Corps bridging company. But I'd be fine with being corrected if I am wrong!
Best,
Will
Hi Will. I'll hit the books and let you know what I find.
Data on Corps- and Army-level units can be a bit thin on the ground, unfortunately, especially for Sicily and Italy, but I'll see what I can dig up.
If anyone else has answers and wants to jump in, please don't hold back!
-
Thanks for replying so quickly! I have been digging into this and have not come up with an answer yet.
What I've got so far is this:
The bridge was constructed by 3 Field Company RCE but the materials were delivered from the beachhead to the construction site by the appropriate RASC bridging company. At some point, the materials may have been transferred to 1st Canadian Division RCE lorries, but it seems more likely to me that they'd just use the RASC lorries to haul to the site, and avoid the extra handling. But I might be wrong (and maybe just a little crazy to be obsessing over which tiny rectangle to paint on one model that no one else will even notice, much less care about!)
Cheers!
Will
-
Not sure if this helps. I read somewhere that RASC units transported vehicles from vehicle pools to front line units with only chalk markings consisting of 5-6 digits on them ? The vehicles would be then marked up accordingly on arrival at the new unit. Not sure if this would apply to a bridging unit as it would only be temp attached ?
-
thanks, MW. As far as I can determine, the Bailey bridge equipment was shipped in standard 3-ton loads. RASC would deliver the loads from the bridgehead to where it was needed, where it would be handed off to the appropriate RE (or RCE in this case) unit. A complication is that each RE Field Park company kept 80' of bridging in its immediate stores, but these were supposed to be maintained as a reserve, and they were supposed to use equipment delivered by RASC where possible, rather than deplete and restore their reserve.
So the RASC bridging company would deliver the equipment to the construction site, where the RE or RCE Field Company would build the bridge. If I want to cut out the RASC, i could simply use a blue rectangle with white 48 to represent the Division's Field Park Company.
Enough to make your head spin!
-
A tricky one indeed!
In the meantime, I've decided to move the site to a new home and a new host, so that I'll be able to upload PDF versions of the diagrams - particularly the timelines - as the pure image file versions can be difficult to read.
Please update your bookmarks!
http://www.uk-tank-markings.co.uk/
-
and bookmarked!
-
That's great, SquireB. Easier to navigate now!
-
Independent Armoured Brigades timeline updated to show Motor battalions and AoS markings.
I've even thrown in a PDF version if you follow the link:
https://www.uk-tank-markings.co.uk/formation-timelines/#IndyBrig
(https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/uk-independent-armoured-brigades-timeline-v2-01.png)
-
Quick one today.
I've updated the Independent Brigades diagrams to reflect the recent revelations about 4AB using blue/green rather than red, and 33AB apparently NOT using 151-154 serials after all.
https://uktankmarkings.wordpress.com/2021/05/12/updates-12-05-21/
-
interesting squirebev - and always good to see your new work ;D where did this revelation about 4th Armoured Brigade AoS come from?
EC
-
There's quite a lengthy thread about it on Missing Lynx:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/arm-of-service-marking-dilemma-t327113.html
-
yep, apologies should have followed the link on your blog before posting here,
EC
-
And you thought the Far East would send you mad... ;D lol
"Why not include the divisional commanders?", I thought, "It can't be that difficult."
-
"Why not include the divisional commanders?", I thought, "It can't be that difficult."
You ok, Hun? :o
-
Apart from shouting the names of miscellaneous Brigadiers in my sleep...
Full timeline is getting there anyway. I've done the Guards and the 1st Armoured Division so far.
-
A huge applause for your efforts I must say
Cheers
Matt
-
A huge applause for your efforts I must say
Cheers
Matt
Thank you :)
I've uploaded a PDF version of the Complete Timeline as it stands. Just the Guards and 1st Armoured Divisions at the moment. I thought I'd seek feedback on the general layout before proceeding any further!
https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.1-1.pdf
-
Fantastic work as always!
I was just wondering though; do you really need to list all the periods when someone was standing in for the GOC? I think that'll send you mad, because unit routine orders are stuffed full of that stuff when you look deeply into it. It was basically due to the CO being on leave, away at a course, sick, etc. The GOC was still the GOC during those periods, but authority of command would temporarily be transferred for the purposes of Army Law while the GOC was away. I'd be tempted to ignore those acting commanders, unless they were in post as interim acting GOC in between two different GOCs (e.g. due to the previous one being killed/sacked/transferred).
-
Yeah, you're right. It is a bit much. Some of the appointments are only for a couple of days.
I'm basically just transcribing Joslen, and he does specify when commanders were wounded/killed/captured, so I can probably cut it back to just those instances and preserve my sanity a bit longer!
-
2nd Armoured Division added, and I've removed the excessive detail in GOC changes.
https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.2.pdf
As I'm doing the Divisions in numerical order, I'm not relishing the next two. The 7th in particular could get VERY messy.
-
Wonderful work you have done.
I am doing some painting on some 1st Armour Div. tanks.
Some very useful information.
-
2nd Armoured Division added, and I've removed the excessive detail in GOC changes.
https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.2.pdf
As I'm doing the Divisions in numerical order, I'm not relishing the next two. The 7th in particular could get VERY messy.
Superb work! You might be madder than a sack of angry cats, but we need you to keep doing the Lord's work! :D
-
6th Armoured Division added: https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.3.pdf
The 7th takes up three times as many pages in Joslen, so it might take a while!
-
The 7th takes up three times as many pages in Joslen, so it might take a while!
Or not!
https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.4.pdf
As I've only covered official movements rather than temporary attachments, it was considerably less stressful than expected.
-
Good news! I've finally got my hands on a copy of the expanded edition of Hodges and Taylor. It contains a LOT of extra information, especially covering North Africa and Italy.
Once I've finished the OOB visual timeline I should be able to make quite a few updates to the Division and Corps AoS diagrams.
Stay tuned!
-
Update:
- Added 11th Armoured Division
- A couple more minor corrections
Latest PDF version: https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.8.pdf
Feedback, corrections, comments, all welcome as ever!
I'm on the home straight now, with just the 42nd and 79th Armoured Divisions to do. It should be fairly plain sailing, as the 42nd never left the UK, and I've already done most of the heavy lifting for the 79th anyway: Formation Timelines
-
Update:
- Added 42nd Armoured Division
- Added 79th Armoured Division
Latest PDF version: https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/complete-armoured-divisions-timeline-v0.9.pdf
Feedback welcome as ever.
And that's it. All British Armoured Divisions covered. I'm hoping to eventually cover Commonwealth divisions as well, so stay tuned.
I'm sure there's still more to be done anyway, hence it being v0.9...
-
Afternoon all!
Using the wealth of extra information from the 2nd edition of Hodges & Taylor I've made a start on updating some of the Middle East diagrams. See below:
Armoured Division - September 1941
A couple of minor issues with this one:
No evidence of any infantry in the support group - presumably because both battalions have become Motor Battalions in the armoured brigades instead but the official structure hasn't yet been updated to reflect this?
No mention of which units have a LAD attached.
Both armoured brigades and the support group are listed as having a Recovery Section, Light Recovery Section and Ordnance Field Park Section attached, using the appropriate colours, but I'm not sure whether this was part of the official structure or a field expedient.
(https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/uk-middle-east-armoured-division-1941-late-01.png)
Infantry Division - September 1941
Again no mention of which units have a LAD attached.
No mention of a divisional RAOC workshop either
(https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/uk-middle-east-infantry-division-1941-late-01.png)
Corps - September 1941
A couple of minor issues with this one:
No mention of an overall Corps cash office
Again no mention of which units have a LAD attached.
Confusion over whether Mobile Bath Units came under RAMC or RAOC. Some suggestion that RAMC was responsible for laundry and bath on bases and depots, while RAOC was responsible for the same in the field?
(https://uktankmarkings.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/uk-middle-east-corps-1941-01.png)
As ever, feedback, comments, corrections all VERY welcome.