Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: manchesterreg on July 01, 2020, 08:37:29 AM
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Rubicon have advertised their new project the Vietnam War 1955 - 1975 first models will be VC on their facebook page.
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Interesting. While I lovee their models I’m currently pretty heavily invested in 1/50 vehicles, so I can’t see myself shifting.
As for their figures... Well they would need to be a quantum leap from their current plastic crew figures, which tend to have rather soft detail. Not seen their metal figures, so can’t comment but the Empress Paul Hicks sculpts are going to take some beating.
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Oh dear. I just looked at the renders. Why do so many manufacturers go with the trope of Viet Cong wearing nón lá hats? I’ve yet to see many photos of NLF troops wearing them.
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WIP thread here:
http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=1008.msg13935#msg13935 (http://forum.rubiconmodels.com/index.php?topic=1008.msg13935#msg13935)
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Oh dear. I just looked at the renders. Why do so many manufacturers go with the trope of Viet Cong wearing nón lá hats? I’ve yet to see many photos of NLF troops wearing them.
It might be worth putting some constructive criticism on the Rubicon WIP thread.
They are generally responsive.
[Edit] Not saying you were not being constructive.
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Interesting. While I lovee their models I’m currently pretty heavily invested in 1/50 vehicles, so I can’t see myself shifting.
I have to agree, I have a lot of post Korea stuff in 1/50.
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Rubicon in the past have been a bit awry with their sources. So I wouldn't put it past them to be going with what's the most available material out there as opposed to the most accurate. I assume that different staff work on projects - so some may be better at knowing what's correct than others.
...At least their new Panzer IIIs don't have 4 engine deck panels instead of 3. ::)
Any plastic range is good. Doesn't matter what the period. Admitedly yes, I've also found that their details on plastic figures tend to be a bit soft; particularly with the faces. For comparison the older Wargames Factory models which were produced using a similar process were much shaper.
The infantry has no interest to me. Probably would to Vietnam collectors, though for soldiers I usually prefer metal regardless. Its the plastic vehicles which have my attention, however I have a feeling that the options may be a bit limited for my own purposes ( Soviet Vietnam era kit isn't as widely used in the 2020s in Europe). Still, as a period the equipment used would persist for decades after the war. I'd just hope that Rubicon or another company would make some upgrade kits for later variants (though there's so many out there that it may not be viable to even attempt). A company for instance taking any US vehicles and selling kits to make them suitable for Desert Storm seems like an interesting idea.
So whilst I'm all for these releases, I'm not sure there's going to be much to interest me here. Empress' 1980s metal range has more going for it as far as generic modern figures suitable for multiple conflicts go. Outside of the US soldiers here I'm not sure on what would really do for later events which people actually play.
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It might be worth putting some constructive criticism on the Rubicon WIP thread.
They are generally responsive.
Please don't lol lol lol lol lol lol
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I find it interesting how certain wars can get "hot" at times.
Vietnam has not been that popular of late but now there a several
companies putting really nice figures for it. I guess there is an ebb and
flow to certain periods.
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I will stay with 1/50 vehicles , too and I think it will be very difficult to beat the metal miniatures avalable with plastics. If they would have the quality of Victrix Napoleonics then possibly , yes otherwise ,no.
and i think the Vietnam war gets more popular because time goes by and there aren't that many feelings hurt by playing a vietnam wargame.
I know that there are enough fellow wargamers who refrain from gaming modern warfare because it is to close for comfort and I think that is quite well understandable.
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Please don't lol lol lol lol lol lol
Would now be a good time to take you up on your kind offer? :D
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I will stay with 1/50 vehicles , too and I think it will be very difficult to beat the metal miniatures avalable with plastics. If they would have the quality of Victrix Napoleonics then possibly , yes otherwise ,no.
and i think the Vietnam war gets more popular because time goes by and there aren't that many feelings hurt by playing a vietnam wargame.
I know that there are enough fellow wargamers who refrain from gaming modern warfare because it is to close for comfort and I think that is quite well understandable.
I think that's a good point, but I don't know anyone playing Desert Storm, perhaps not because it's so sensitive/repugnant, but probably because it's simply so one-sided. Anyone volunteering to build up forces for the Iraqi infantry divisions? Thought not.
And Vietnam has undergone something of a rehabilitation since the 80s-90s.
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I think that's a good point, but I don't know anyone playing Desert Storm, perhaps not because it's so sensitive/repugnant, but probably because it's simply so one-sided. Anyone volunteering to build up forces for the Iraqi infantry divisions? Thought not.
Well, I've got a Kuwaiti Armoured Regiment on the painting table to field against my Iraqis. So sometimes it can be fun to play the underdog ;)
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I think that's a good point, but I don't know anyone playing Desert Storm, perhaps not because it's so sensitive/repugnant, but probably because it's simply so one-sided. Anyone volunteering to build up forces for the Iraqi infantry divisions? Thought not.
And Vietnam has undergone something of a rehabilitation since the 80s-90s.
Too late in the piece to spark much interest from me and as you say terribly one sided for the most part. That said Command Decision did a great little scenario for the USMC clearing Kuwait International airport that's reasonably well balanced.
One of my long term on again, off again projects has been building some forces for Operation Vantage, the 1961 British response to Iraq's threatened invasion of Kuwait.
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Please don't lol lol lol lol lol lol
Can I interpret this to mean the female fighters will be well represented in your range? :D
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Well, I've got a Kuwaiti Armoured Regiment on the painting table to field against my Iraqis. So sometimes it can be fun to play the underdog ;)
I think any major conflict in which you suffer more armour losses from your allies than your enemies can be considered extremely one-sided. Is that true of Kuwait vs Iraq?
And believe me - I always play the underdog... Austrians in Nappies and 7YW, Jacobites in 1745, anyone except Rome..
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Now with vehicles. Rubicon Models' Facebook page has more pictures. (https://www.facebook.com/rubiconmodels/?__tn__=%2CdkCH-R-R&eid=ARAGgJ41B216Olyl3qzOijXio5Fov7034eN094r1VcHwI6-YdKCw8PdbANFnpD0POShsBuYzDNNdfZcu&hc_ref=ARRwPA7pVe1LLBfIWp3PdwVMTjHwutUgpC0tTdEsq5WkcbzFtpEwcy4DApyuCWrFoDk&ref=nf_target&hc_location=group)
Our first "official" project that is absolutely not WW2-related... the Soviet BTR-60P Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC).
This Cold War project will cover both the BTR-60P and BTR-60PA, and we are also looking into a BTR-60PB upgrade as well. More detail images on our official FB page. What do you think?
(https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/106507154_10223232293059347_634199935580321415_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=Q-PEu5ZHk7QAX9UsRH9&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=38e16eb9d397b8e36fd9e3fc6b50ada5&oe=5F2BDCA4)
(https://scontent.flhr3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/107721052_2601116043475081_2078318540535187508_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=pSmi8TXtIQkAX8XqvTv&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-2.fna&oh=8c59ad4a7dfc31eae904b98e9e4510fa&oe=5F2BF829)
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Good spot.
It is also on their forum.
I asked about the non cabriolet option.
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Not saying it isn’t a good thing but I really question whether they have thought things through. I doubt there’s a huge modelling base for 1/56 modern vehicles, a niche within a niche within a niche which suggests the appetite is resumed to live in wargaming world, another niche within a niche.
The problem with doing BTR-60 P and PA models is that no gaming company produces 28mm miniatures for which they would be suitable companions. There’s not much in the way of 1960s Soviet or Middle Eastern client forces out there to my knowledge. A BTR-60 PB would have much greater potential but even there the ranges of miniatures are still pretty thin.
Given they are about to launch a Vietnam range I would have thought starting with Vietnam vehicles would be smarter. BTR-60s were not a notable feature of that conflict.
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I believe they're dipping their toes into doing a wider Cold War range. Or at least vehicles capable of covering multiple wars. So whilst the BTR-60 may have only seen use in Vietnam in small number (I wouldn't know myself), it may be more viable for them due to its wider use as far as what customers will use it for.
That modern gaming errs towards 1/50th may be more of a holdover of the lack of wargaming companies having invested in it. 1/56th was the new thing in WWII gaming back in the day and now its taken over. Before then folk were using the larger scale models as that's what the "proper" model companies were making, and the wargaming companies just followed on to be compatible with them.
So whilst its niche, its not entirely so. There are a few companies out there doing Cold War stuff in 1/56th. Though most of the other companies are doing 1/50th, which likely isn't going to change now.
Personally I've ditched my 1/50th stuff and moved to 1/56th for modern gaming. I only used 1/50th as that's what was available. Now with 3D printing that's become a moot issue. I'd welcome a company like Rubicon making good quality kits, as it'd mean not having to deal with all the oversized compnents which come out of the other companies for conversion work. Just hopefully there's some sort of after market industry for them - though yeah, the post-wwii space is a niche, so that's unlikely.
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Scale isn’t the issue for me. I have 1/48, 1/50, 1/56 models though I usually filter scale by type or conflict so as to avoid the issue of size disparity amongst models of the same vehicle. My 1960s Brits use 1/56 scout cars and tanks but I’ve been buying 1/50 vehicles for Vietnam.
My question is really whether a BTR-60 in its early form is a sensible way to dip ones toe. They didn’t see a lot of action, they aren’t compatible with the bigger project Rubicon has just launched (Vietnam) and nobody makes ranges of toy soldiers that would be compatible. A BTR-60 PB makes far more sense as the baseline model as it was the principle export model and they could make some variants from that, like the PU or even a Romanian TAB-71.
Look, I’ll probably buy one as I like their kits and I like the BTR-60 as a vehicle but it seems a strange choice, inspired by whimsy or possibly poor research.
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I mean, if I was doing my Arab Israeli wars in 28mm I guess this would be a fantastic buy. 1/56 is a common WW2 scale and there'd be plenty of crossover between WW2 and the AIW.
But then I went with 1/72 for that, didn't I ;)
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I suspect that the early model BTR-60 was an excuse to make a vehicle with an interior, following the Tiger II. Perhaps to show off as a start to this new range. It seen use in that conflict, so they can try and get away with it.
Why the BTR-60 specifically is indeed a question, though the company maybe have a business plan involved where they're considering later conflicts and want to have a kit which is viable for them. As opposed to making something older like the BTR-40 that is. Saying that, its difficult for me to think of a Soviet vehicle used in Vietnam which wouldn't be used for decades after it.
I totally agree that Rubicon do fall into the realms of whimsy at times. More so for projects done by new starts though. Maybe they just think making one of these will sell better than a BTR-40 or something which other companies are already doing in resin (products which themselves are already niche compared to their WWII line which they can get away with dublicating kits available from other companies - as Rubicon's quality's generally better).
I suppose if not the BTR-60 what else could they have came out with for the Communist forces?
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Well, if they wanted to do something for Vietnam then they should have looked at a BTR-50. Options for open and closed and even an AA variant or two. Not much used but certainly more so than the BTR-60, the Vietnamese didn’t have any of those until well after the war ended and I doubt there’s a huge market for Vietnam’s Vietnam, the counter insurgency war in Cambodia post the invasion. For the 1978 invasion itself the Vietnamese mostly used ex ARVN M113s as APCs.
Vehicles are marginal for PAVN forces save for 1972 and 1975. The obvious choices are T-54 and PT-76 tanks with the main APC type for both being Chinese Type 63s I doubt we will be seeing the latter, which is vaguely ironic as Rubicon are, I believe, Hong Kong based.
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I'd like a BTR-152...
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Company B do one in resin don’t they?
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Plastic M113. That would be a market winner. And T-54/55's in plastic. That would sell well I reckon.
Although I will be getting one of these add as filler in any African Imagination and neo-future sci-fi.
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I'd like a BTR-152...
That would be a winner for me! It definitely was a more common sight during the Vietnam War than the BTR-60.
I find some of these companies often choose an 'odd' product for their first release. If the focus is on Vietnam, I would have thought the BTR-40 or BTR-50 would have been a more appropriate choice? It also would have tied in well to the WWW2 and 'early Cold War' gamers. If they're looking for a kit that would be attractive across as many periods as possible, something like the BMP-1 or BRDM-2 would probably have been a better starting point.
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A plastic T-54/55 in particular would be useful for so many conversions. I've been hacking up resin T-54s to turn into T-44s, which isn't easy... I strongly suspect we'll be seeing one of those out of Rubicon if they're invested in a Vietnam range. :D
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Your jump to 1/56 is particularly poorly timed then. Tamiya have just released a 1/48 T-55 and Hobby Boss do a remarkably detailed (full interior) but cheap T-34/85 in the same scale. All the makings of a T-44 for around £30 or less and no nasty resin to chop or sand.
As in comedy, timing is everything. :D
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I'm fairly interested in these to be honest. Just another option on the market which I don't see as a bad thing.
I could also see myself grabbing the vehicles. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of expansion and conversion kits they come out with for the range similar to the WW2 ones.
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I'd love to see inexpensive M113s in 1/48 (not 1/56 as that is a little small for chunkier figures) with tons of options, especially rucksacks and stuff hanging off the sides.