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Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: Warren Abox on July 16, 2020, 01:41:06 AM

Title: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on July 16, 2020, 01:41:06 AM
I'm looking to start a new urban table for 6mm, and wonder if anybody has any advice to offer.  I've looked around, but most of the urban tables that I've seen are either bombed out ruins or near-city suburbs with lots of farms and woods.  I'm looking for a central downtown business district here for street fighting.

Here's what I've got planned so far:


The question is...what to do about the store fronts?  Should I just hand paint doors, windows, signs, etc.?  Or can somebody recommend any storefront graphics that I can chop up and print to fit?  Any other aspects of this project that I should consider before I make my first cuts?
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: PhilB on July 16, 2020, 08:10:35 AM
Storefronts are tricky, since the art and lettering will vary so much by country and period. An urban table for 1943 France will not look the same as 1945 Berlin, with even greater differences for different time periods and locations.

For example, typical French storefronts are often similar to this one, but of course in a city like Paris, there were already many shops emulating more "modern" American styles.

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/39/b7/5c/39b75c1f28b6d693b82e4f3b0940eb92.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUSariWVPu-5wmEJy762bJexzSAlGaOyLgrQ23fJi7Ztl9NmbY&s)
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: jon_1066 on July 16, 2020, 10:02:05 AM
Really the first thing is what era?  Then what rules?  How are the figures based?  It's pointless building a great model if your bases won't fit.  If you are urban fighting shouldn't occupying the buildings form a major element so how to represent that without having removable roofs, etc.

Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: Warren Abox on July 16, 2020, 04:42:43 PM
Modern street gang fights.  Running affairs where combatants don't want to get bogged down inside static positions.  This will be a run and gun style game in the maze of streets, so interiors aren't needed.

I've never seen a table like this, so I am largely starting from scratch.  Closest was a Mogadishu table covering the entire city, and that is way larger scale than the ten blocks I am looking to build.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: Warren Abox on July 19, 2020, 06:35:29 AM
Here's what I settled on.  11x9 boards with cardstock sidewalks and cut lumber buildings.  That open block will turn into a park, and obviously it needs more detailing everywhere.  Kinda wish I had gone with 3/4-inch high buildings instead of 1/2-inch.  But it's a good start.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: Flinty on July 21, 2020, 01:45:00 PM
Very neat idea, I like the modular approach.

Building frontages - if you want really a really specific look, how about finding the images that fit your period/setting, stitching them together in a Word Processing document, size, print out and glue to the face of the blocks?

Otherwise I imagine that model railway card stock buildings could be a good source. Cheap, usually plenty of geographically specific architectural styles (time periods might be a bit limited), but easy to scale, print and stick on.

If your scale matches one of theirs, plenty of scatter/street furniture available as well, I have some of the tarmac roads on a roll which I use for 20mm, which is a lot easier than trying to paint neat, uniform road markings.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: CookAndrewB on July 21, 2020, 03:20:16 PM
I like the look of this. Will you be facing the buildings as they are, or using them as a basic footprint for building upwards?
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: PhilB on July 21, 2020, 05:55:50 PM
Is this for 6mm or 10mm figures? When you first posted, I had no idea it would be so low-profile.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: fastolfrus on July 21, 2020, 08:59:07 PM
Here's what I settled on.  11x9 boards with cardstock sidewalks and cut lumber buildings.  That open block will turn into a park, and obviously it needs more detailing everywhere.  Kinda wish I had gone with 3/4-inch high buildings instead of 1/2-inch.  But it's a good start.

If it's an inner city modern setting those buildings need to be a lot taller.
For 6mm, 1/2 inch would probably look like 2-storey buildings. More suitable for suburbs.
3/4 inch would still look short.
I would probably add another layer of 1/2 inch to some of them and mix in a few bits of 3/4 or even 1 inch. Most cities have a variety of building heights.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: Warren Abox on July 22, 2020, 04:44:15 AM
This is for 6mm scale.  Thanks for the comments.

Since this is for street fighting, I am cutting off the terrain after the first floor.  Limiting the z-scale like that won't affect the gameplay at all, and will allow access to the 'concrete canyons' where the real action takes place.  A big part of this is storage constraints.  At 1/2-inch building heights I can pack a 36-inch by 24-inch battle into a single portable case.  With room left over for figures, no less!

Good thinking, combing model railroad sites for inspiration.  I need to detail up the frontages with awnings and columns and such still.  At this point, hand painting is probably the way to go.  Won't look as photo-real, but who wants to spend all that time photoshopping and cropping and scaling and trimming printed frontages?  I'm here to paint and play.

Once the buildings are painted and secured, I will hit the surrounding areas with greenery.  Need to know where the buildings live to put hedges and grass verges and paint in some parking lots.  Might skip some of the scatter terrain.  Mailboxes and lamp posts would look nice, but at this scale I'm not sure they are worth the bother and clutter.  If they intrude on the miniature play...fuggedabowdit.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: CookAndrewB on July 22, 2020, 08:43:32 PM
Oh, I'm all for the lack of vertical. It looks cool right up until you have to fit my clumsy mitts down between buildings without knocking over everything lol.

I think hand painting should be easy enough. At that scale how much detail is there? Sign print would mostly look like blobs and squiggles I imagine. I think this is really great, and represents a city well!
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building?
Post by: Warren Abox on July 22, 2020, 09:56:24 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Andrew. 

Might as well turn it into a progress thread, eh?  A little wall paint helps separate the buildings from the sidewalks.  I'll have a mix of blocks with small shops and a few big box stores.  Maybe paint one up as a hospital and one as a PD, for objective points.

Any advice on the windows?  My instinct is to go sky-blue, but reference photos make the windows all look darker gray than sky blue.  And I'm not sure if I should use one color of window across the board, of if I should vary window colors based on the walls they are set into.  I think that with the light and dark buildings, that I should vary the window colors to add more contrast to each building, but I'm not entirely sure.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress Pic added 22/7/20]
Post by: Brandlin on July 27, 2020, 11:28:36 AM
This will be a run and gun style game in the maze of streets, so interiors aren't needed.

Personally I don't think that grid-pattern (mostly) american block layout of buildings lends itself to this style of game... it certainly isn't 'maze-like'. You end up with a lot of long line of sight roads. You can break this up a bit with differing height buildings, over hangs, walkways and improvised barricades and street furniture, but to my european eyese it never looks right.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress Pic added 22/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on July 27, 2020, 08:20:09 PM
I looked around at images of epic scaled terrain and frankly I found black windows to be the best look. As an example:

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ePIooS8KMsM/VkRWX5RuGdI/AAAAAAAADd8/_-ybKhRyL9s/s1600/IMG_0999.JPG)

(http://losthemisphere.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Prints_04.jpg)

I believe that those buildings are in the 3-6mm scale range and I find this to look most natural. If you look at something like a photo of a city from a plane (stunning sunset/sunrise reflections aside) this is how windows look in the day:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/618hsOsiLdL._AC_SY741_.jpg)

It isn't real fancy, but it would feel realistic, and I think this is how I would skin that cat. On some of the lighter colored buildings, I think this will look great. It might be a bit tough to see on darker buildings.






Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress Pic added 22/7/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on July 28, 2020, 12:31:50 AM
You end up with a lot of long line of sight roads. You can break this up a bit with differing height buildings, over hangs, walkways and improvised barricades and street furniture, but to my european eyese it never looks right.

We do loves our elbow room, don't we?  Long, straight ranges shouldn't be a huge problem for the game I have in mind.  For the most part.  It might come into play if this table gets used for vehicular combat, but that's a gravy genre.


I looked around at images of epic scaled terrain and frankly I found black windows to be the best look. As an example:

It isn't real fancy, but it would feel realistic, and I think this is how I would skin that cat. On some of the lighter colored buildings, I think this will look great. It might be a bit tough to see on darker buildings.

Those do look nice.  Unlike my builds, they have the benefit of that third dimension.  To compensate, I went with dark gray windows outlined in black with a touch of light gray reflections.  That way I've got every color covered.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress Pic added 22/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on July 29, 2020, 07:38:23 PM
I think the storefronts look nice. The addition of the different awnings and such do a great job to give the impression of different store fronts.

It may be a bit of a moot point now, but I do find that it is helpful to make a stencil for adding road markings on. It takes 10-15 minutes worth of work to make the stencil, but then I can stipple on road markings until the cows come home.

Example of crosswalks:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/15049-290720192902.jpeg)

And center lines:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/47/15049-290720192736.jpeg)

The stencil was made from a piece of cardboard with standardized markings cut out. Then I just line up the stencil with the width of the road and mash out lines. The stippling allows for lines to look faded or worn without much fuss. Just less paint and less tapping.

Nothing wrong with giving it the old free-hand, just something that I've found to have worked for me over the years.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on August 01, 2020, 07:55:35 PM
Stencils.  Yep.  Gotta add that to my toolbox

Here is the latest.  Some cars, trash cans, newspaper boxes, and mailboxes to add more 3D stuff.  Got the park with statue and WWII Sherman memorial in there as well.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Pattus Magnus on August 01, 2020, 09:49:59 PM
That looks really sharp. I’m working on some 6mm Cold War stuff at the moment and will soon need to build some towns and villages. Doing something similar to what you’ve put together would be just the ticket! Thanks for posting about your project!
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Teardrop World on August 02, 2020, 07:00:50 AM
An effective result, remind me of an old top view video game about theft and cars.
Should be a blast with plenty of trafic and pedestrian. Love it! Thinking of small scale now......must resist......

Cheers
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on August 03, 2020, 09:33:43 PM
Coming along wonderfully! Should be easy enough to add to at some point too. Rivers, bridges, etc.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Dr. Zombie on August 04, 2020, 08:43:54 AM
That is looking great. You could perhaps add some gubbins to the roofs of the buildings, airconditioners waterheaters and what have you all the stuff that usually goes on top of roofs. To break up the large surface areas.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: PhilB on August 04, 2020, 10:08:17 AM
That is looking great. You could perhaps add some gubbins to the roofs of the buildings, airconditioners waterheaters and what have you all the stuff that usually goes on top of roofs. To break up the large surface areas.

Actually, I was thinking it's better to be flat and featureless, for three reasons.
1) You could set figures on the roof, and play as if they were inside the frontage shops, watching and firing into the street.
2) The buildings are supposed to represent multi-story buildings, so the low, flat tops are an abstraction anyway.
3) Storage: If they are flat and featureless, they can be stacked for transportation and storeage, and the buildings' thickness will protect any fixed clutter terrain that is positioned at street level.

It's a very cool project, and is coming together nicely.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on August 04, 2020, 06:20:49 PM
Agreed, Phil. If for no other reason, I'd leave them blank so that they stack neatly. Sure, fancy roof tiles and tall buildings look nice, but nothing beats storing everything stacked up in one box! If you can pull a table worth of terrain out of a single box AND it looks great, that is the height of joy in my book.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Pattus Magnus on August 05, 2020, 02:17:51 AM
Another option for the rooftops would be to do something similar to what is done already on the sides, and paint on some details. I’m thinking along the lines of different shades of grey to indicate the roofs of different buildings, of different shades in irregular parts to indicate repairs, etc. That wouldn’t cause any storage problems but would add visual interest.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on August 05, 2020, 05:54:52 AM
Stacking and storage is the big reason for it.  Very limited space in the house means it is always a first consideration.  I can pack all the terrain and should have room for all the figs in this one box.

I like the idea of darker gray roofs for the one story buildings, though.  If only to make it a little less monotonous.  May even be able to squeeze some air conditioning units in there - not permanently affixed to the buildings, but something you can drop on while setting up.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on August 05, 2020, 03:00:29 PM
That's what I'm talking about! Pure magic.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 17/08/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on August 18, 2020, 12:43:42 AM
Closing out with a shot of the final look of the place, complete with figures.  Had to throw grids on the top of the buildings to comply with the needs of the game, and that breaks up some of the monotony of all that flat gray space.  Thanks for the advice/help, guys.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on August 18, 2020, 05:38:34 PM
Good looking addition, Warren. The grids actually look very good. I may swipe this idea for some of my flat roofed buildings, in fact.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Actual Play 28/8/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on August 29, 2020, 01:57:45 AM
Here's a couple more shots, with a few Styrofoam sphere trees to add a bit of height and blocking terrain to the proceedings.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3ZALmbzUM4E/Xzx7uqtAKNI/AAAAAAAAFNU/nTJFgYIXE8kFlazcEYIOHRhrPqwt5vPQACLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/riot2.png)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pZ9ZDpPUHCA/Xzx7u4rDMOI/AAAAAAAAFNc/woP7XWGUGwU1Re9TroA2GdER9aeAt82-wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/riot3.png)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-g_4N67xrzjM/Xzx7ui4RMtI/AAAAAAAAFNY/tm7F5tVV4uweixyvqi8NfZmIGtBVRmjBACLcBGAsYHQ/s1000/riot1.png)
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on August 31, 2020, 06:56:30 PM
The trees are a nice touch. At this scale they work very well. Feels like all you would need to make some bushes/hedges would be little clusters of clump foliage.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Cacique Caribe on September 01, 2020, 12:25:09 AM
Warren

Love your videos.  I watch every single one with much interest and joy.  Keep them coming!

Dan
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Warren Abox on September 01, 2020, 05:22:05 AM
Love your videos.  I watch every single one with much interest and joy.  Keep them coming!

Hey, thanks for that, brother!  I'm having an absolute ball sharing all this good stuff with you guys.  Takes a little longer than blogging but it's totally worth it to get kind encouragement from fine folks like you.  The YouTubes is light on small wargaming fare and heavy on guys servicing the 800-pound gorillas, so I'm stepping up into the gap and having a great time doing it.
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: CookAndrewB on September 01, 2020, 03:46:14 PM
Huh... I honestly never noticed the link to your blog before. Really nice stuff in there. I know what I'll be doing with my free time over the next few days lol
Title: Re: Any Advice on City Building? [Progress thread 31/7/20]
Post by: Dr. Zombie on September 02, 2020, 06:13:01 AM
Those lines on the roofs really made a huge difference in breaking up the monotony of the otherwise flat surfaces. Great job!