Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Ockius on July 22, 2020, 10:28:22 PM
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This might seem silly or trivial, but here we go: I was just thinking about how to base a unit of landsknechts, and whether to go for the front rank as the armoured men, which would fit with what I have read about them, when I wondered about my standard bearer.
What do people think about the standard’s position in a unit - front rank? That seems the most usual position in wargames model units, but I imagine in a real battle the banner would be 2 or more ranks back, as you definitely don’t want to lose it, and the standard bearer himself cannot fight effectively or even contribute to a shield wall or pike phalanx or similar effectively.
Would the standard look daft a couple of ranks back?
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I put mine in the second rank. They wouldn't have been at the front. In fact I'm not entirely sure they would have been trying to fly huge flags anywhere in a dense pike block!
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You can maybe start by browsing this thread (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=98170.0) (even though it mainly concerns the Spanish tercio). It contains a decent selection of historical drawings, diagrams and links to various formations of that general era. The actual battle formations, of course, would be larger than the 20-30 minis we usually see in wargaming units, and there could be several standards in both dimensions, depending on the grouping. Because the head counts are not really true, you have to consider the options of absolute counting ("third rank") vs relative positioning ("in the middle"). Arquebusiers and such would complicate the big picture even further.
Anyway, "1/3 from the front" or "in the middle" may be good starting points realism-wise. Front rank seems to appear mainly in heroic paintings where artistic liberties have been taken to bring the good stuff to the front. :)
More illustrations and paintings of different types can be found you-know-where...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_and_shot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_square
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsknecht
and so on, for example Schlacht bei Pavia (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Joachim_Patinir_009.jpg) (from Battle of Pavia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pavia), 1525) by Joachim Patinir.
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It might come from my old warhammer days, but i always put the standards, musicians and officers in the center of the front rank. To me it looks great.
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With my mostly ancient/medieval armies I tend to put them slightly to the fore of a unit behind the front rank.
With the ECW/TWY I see a lot of folk placing the command on a separate stand at the back of the unit with perhaps only the drummer and sergeant (?) etc being on the front bases.
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Okay, this is all food for thought, and thank you for the links.
I think I might see what he looks like a rank or two back, with a couple of halberdiers by him as a colour guard. It’s also the fact the model is unarmoured and not as nice a sculpt as the others that made me think he might spoil the look of the front rank a bit.
I’ll put the unit commander in front to lead from the front and so you get to see him properly as he’s a cool model.
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EDIT: I miss read the wording of the first post and was thinking ECW/TYW.... see my post below. :)
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Early Landys....
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1963/31878487348_873c2cdeb6_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QyZzEd)
Later...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1806/41644635880_50f93c87de_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26rZDns)
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Swiss and landsknecht pike blocks.
The standards should probably be in a little cluster in the centre, but given that we don't tend to have blocks of 3,000 men with maybe a dozen standards but instead might have blocks of 50 figures with 5 standards the visuals are all to pot anyway, so I just do what I think looks good.
Personally I tend to stagger them from rank 3 back to rank 8, and spread them across the unit this way the (large) standards are more visible and don't obscure each other as they tend to do if all in the same rank.
There is no historical justification for this, but I really don't care.
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Oh bugger..... I didn't read the Landsknecht bit! lol
Dags and Chris are right, somewhere in the middle of the units is best, that's where they appear to be historically on contemporary imagery.
Swiss but almost contemporaneously with the Landsknechts (most ranges that is):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Schilling_murten.jpg)
Illustration from the Zürcher Schilling (1480/1484)
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On a quick glance at my landsknecht sources, somewhere close to the middle of the unit, with a colour guard of halberdiers, seems appropriate. The presence of the halberdiers also means that you have more space for the flag, without needing to worry about hitting the pikes. On the other hand, captain would be expected to lead from the front ranks, and would therefore preferably be decently armoured.
One possible set-up mentioned for a whole regiment of ten companies fighting as a whole would be for some of the flags being placed close to the front of the regiment, some to the middle and some towards the rear. So if you have a large unit with lots of flags, you don't need to necessarily deploy them all in one spot. Personally, I am usually content enough with a single flag per unit.
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The flags around the middle area look good actually so I think I’ll do something like that, pending seeing how well the models all rank up. I will get some more flags made too as they really do add to the look of the unit.
Some very impressive pike block pics have been posted, well done to you guys, painting that many landsknechts is no mean feat!
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Keep in mind that, generally, Landsknecht and Swiss flags were on short poles and waved one handed
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It might depend on what part of the battle you are modelling.
ECW (certainly in the Sealed Knot) would send the Standard
bearer, Ensign, forward (i.e. in front of the unit) to 'Flourish
the Colours'. This is effectively to taunt the opposition. There
is one 'flourish' which involves drawing the flag horizontally across
in front of you, just above the grass, but NOT touching the ground.
This is inviting the enemy to 'Come & step on this if you think you
are strong enough'. As soon as the enemy advances/battle begins the
order, 'Retire the Colours!' will be given & they withdraw to the safety
of the middle of the pike block. If things are not going well, the officer will
order the Colours back & tell the unit to Rally on them.
I have seen rules where the Colours are a mini-diorama. Placed in front
of the pikes when morale is good, but behind when not good.
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It might depend on what part of the battle you are modelling.
ECW (certainly in the Sealed Knot) would send the Standard
bearer, Ensign, forward (i.e. in front of the unit) to 'Flourish
the Colours'. This is effectively to taunt the opposition. There
is one 'flourish' which involves drawing the flag horizontally across
in front of you, just above the grass, but NOT touching the ground.
This is inviting the enemy to 'Come & step on this if you think you
are strong enough'. As soon as the enemy advances/battle begins the
order, 'Retire the Colours!' will be given & they withdraw to the safety
of the middle of the pike block. If things are not going well, the officer will
order the Colours back & tell the unit to Rally on them.
I have seen rules where the Colours are a mini-diorama. Placed in front
of the pikes when morale is good, but behind when not good.
This is interesting info, thanks.
A standard bearer story from the ECW that I always liked was of the king’s standard bearer Verney (Edmund I believe, but I may be wrong) who defended it with his life at Edgehill (may be wrong there too!), and fell holding it. Even after death they couldn’t prise it from his hand so they chopped of the hand and carried it off with his limb still attached! I am from a village in what was the Verney’s manor at Claydon House so his story resonated with me when I learnt it as a child.
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As a very basic rule of thumb, for ECW, officers etc to the rear in infantry units.
For most of The Great Italian Wars command in the middle of a pike block.
These being the most common conventions adopted in the armies i have seen and painted :)