Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Arcane Steve on August 03, 2020, 01:09:43 PM
-
After a bit of a delay due to the problems with Covid, The rules set for the War of The Roses 'Never mind the Bill Hooks' will be included with the September issue of WI published in late August. The game rules have been written by the experienced rules writer Andy Callan and we have been play testing them in our gaming group in Bingham for some time. Danny and his team have made a superb job of producing a working rules set that will be included as a separate free colour supplement with the magazine. Here is a sample page of the rules. I hope that gamers will have as much fun as we have had with the rules:
(https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Never-Mind-the-Billhooks-Dan-edit-39-6.jpeg)
-
Nice title. If you can find a way of working in half a dozen of one of Falstaff's companions, it could be 'Never Mind the Bill Hooks, here's the Six Pistols'. But he may be about 30 years early.
-
Looking forward to seeing them and giving them a go. If they are anything like the title they will be great fun.
-
It looks very much like I will be ordering WI next month then. :)
Just to check, that would be next month and not this August's issue?
-
Thanks for posting, that is helpful as I am assembling figures now.
-
Looks interesting Steve, thanks. Looks like I’ll have to buy next month’s WI as well.
-
I’d get that for the title alone lol but anything by Andy Callan is well worth a look.
-
Are the infantry in a 6x2 block? Because that would be a happy coincidence based on how I'm basing my current WotR project :D
-
Thank you for the comments. Yes, infantry are in a 6x2 block. The Supplement should be in the September Issue number 393. And I like the idea of the Six pistols...sounds like an ideal name for a group of Hand gunners!
-
And I like the idea of the Six pistols...sounds like an ideal name for a group of Hand gunners!
"It sorts well with your fierceness" ;) :)
-
Brilliant title and eagerly awaited. I stopped playing WOTR years ago but will be delighted to read anything by Andy C.
-
Just ordered the appropriate issue of WI on the strength of this thread. I've been toying with the idea of this period for a while. I didn't want to do large forces this might be what I'm looking for.
-
Looking forward to it, and glad to see that the forces will be friendly to my existing forces for Lion Rampant.
Sorry to be an awkward bugger, but do you think that they will work for the Burgundian Wars?
-
Looking forward to it, and glad to see that the forces will be friendly to my existing forces for Lion Rampant.
Sorry to be an awkward bugger, but do you think that they will work for the Burgundian Wars?
I have (obviously) not seen the rules yet but anything that works for the Wars of the Roses ought to work for The Burgundian Wars. Both wars being contemporaneous.
-
I'm pretty uninitiated into WI magazine, can someone tell me what places stock it in UK? Big Tesco's? WH Smiths? They have a "store locator" on their website, but it's pretty useless. Also, when do they usually come out?
-
I'm pretty uninitiated into WI magazine, can someone tell me what places stock it in UK? Big Tesco's? WH Smiths? They have a "store locator" on their website, but it's pretty useless. Also, when do they usually come out?
WH Smiths carry it.
I am under the impression that there are less issues in print due to Covid 19. Maybe just order form North Star to be safe?
Link here:
https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=14942 (https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=14942)
-
Most branches of W H Smith carry it, although not the small outlets on railway stations etc.
I picked up the August issue in Smiths in Lewes, Sussex, a couple of weeks ago. That's not a particularly big branch, but they had at least 7 or 8 copies of WI on the shelf amongst the hobby magazines.
-
Most branches of W H Smith carry it, although not the small outlets on railway stations etc.
I picked up the August issue in Smiths in Lewes, Sussex, a couple of weeks ago. That's not a particularly big branch, but they had at least 7 or 8 copies of WI on the shelf amongst the hobby magazines.
It's probably also worth pointing out that WH Smiths carry Wargames, Soldiers and Strategy and the larger branches also carry Karwansaray's Medieval Warfare and Ancient Warfare mags too. all high quality stuff. :)
-
I just bought the August issue in my local WH Smiths about half an hour ago. So, yeah, you don't have to mail order it if you don't want to.
Oddly the Smiths in Ludlow almost always has it, yet the one in Leominster often doesn't. And yet, if anything, that one is the bigger of the two. Maybe there is just more appetite for wargaming books in Leominster than Ludlow and they always sell out before I get there. ???
-
Our big Sainsbury's stock it as well, but none of the other Wargames mags.
-
Oddly the Smiths in Ludlow almost always has it, yet the one in Leominster often doesn't. And yet, if anything, that one is the bigger of the two. Maybe there is just more appetite for wargaming books in Leominster than Ludlow and they always sell out before I get there. ???
Yeah. It is a strange thing which I've never understood. Not that I buy wargames magazines any more to be honest, unless I know there's something specific in one to interest me. But I always found it weird that some huge branches of W H Smith didn't stock the two or three main wargames mags, whereas other, often smaller branches seemed to keep a plentiful stock of them.
Manager's choice maybe? Or just based on sales over a period. Presumably the shops that stock those titles have a history of customers buying them there, and the ones that don't, don't ::)
That or it's just a random, pot luck thing. Which is perfectly possible lol
-
Maybe different distributors too if that's still a thing.
-
Have mine on order every month from the local; newsagent. The September issue will be in the shops the last week in August.
I'm wondering if Andy is the same bloke who sent me a WOTR skirmish ruleset a couple of three years ago?
???
-
If you are struggling to get your Wargames Magazines, we carry Miniature Wargames, Wargames Soldiers and Strategy and of course, Wargames Illustrated. We have had some supply issues with Miniature Wargames due to Covid but have plenty of WI on order. We have also sold through recent releases quite quickly. You can see current availabilty here:
https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/product-category/wargames-magazines/
-
After a bit of a delay due to the problems with Covid, The rules set for the War of The Roses 'Never mind the Bill Hooks' will be included with the September issue of WI published in late August. The game rules have been written by the experienced rules writer Andy Callan and we have been play testing them in our gaming group in Bingham for some time. Danny and his team have made a superb job of producing a working rules set that will be included as a separate free colour supplement with the magazine. Here is a sample page of the rules. I hope that gamers will have as much fun as we have had with the rules:
(https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Never-Mind-the-Billhooks-Dan-edit-39-6.jpeg)
Hold on, gaming group in Bingham? As in Bingham, Notts?
-
Yes, that's Bingham in Notts. We are a small group that were gaming regularly, meeting at each others house. Covid has stopped us gaming since February. There are actually two groups that are based in Bingham as well as a couple of independent gamers that I know of and used to meet at shows. It's surprising how many gamers there are around - they tend to keep it quiet and stick to small groups.
-
Got my copy today via NorthStar.
An interesting rule set at first glance I think. The author thinks they will work for the Burgundian Wars too. Handy enough for me as I have some suitable figures for that. I might buy a few WOTR packs of figures and give it a go.
-
I just bought the August issue in my local WH Smiths about half an hour ago. So, yeah, you don't have to mail order it if you don't want to.
Oddly the Smiths in Ludlow almost always has it, yet the one in Leominster often doesn't. And yet, if anything, that one is the bigger of the two. Maybe there is just more appetite for wargaming books in Leominster than Ludlow and they always sell out before I get there. ???
I worked in smiths up until recently and handled news for a while - the stores have no choice what they get in, it's all set externally based on what might sell or what suppliers can provide.
if the store doesn't have it it's either because
A: no one has requested it so they haven't contacted the supplier to try and get it (you can always do this, they'll set up a file in your name and you can go in an collect at any time.best to ask for whoever in the store deals with news deliveries since they'll know how to access the Menzies supplier system and make the order)
B: there are set stock numbers being sent out so certain stores miss out.
C: it was getting stolen alot so the ancient computer system that runs smiths restock system decided not to buy it anymore to prevent loss.
D: it does come in but the staff are aware that it doesn't sell so they simply mark it for early return and ship it back with last weeks returns that day, saving room for extra copies of things that do sell, because there's normally no room for extra magazine stock to be kept on hand.
Smiths takes alot of pride in stocking it's ludicrous range if niche interest hobby mags, but 99% of them don't sell. (i'm looking at you yacht owners monthly , no one in brixton needs you!) but since magazines are normally provided on a sale or return basis, it doesn't make much different to smiths so long as they can return the unsold copies.
-
(i'm looking at you yacht owners monthly , no one in brixton needs you!)
That is hilarious lol
I always wondered about that. Ten different ‘Ultimate power boating monthly’ type titles, in landlocked Guildford Smiths, 30 miles from the nearest coastline...
And about ten different model railway magazines too.
Model railways are probably a more mainstream hobby than wargaming (although I only know one person, from amongst the thousands of people I’ve met through life, who actually owns a model railway layout), but I refuse to believe it’s such a big hobby that it can support half a shelf full of different magazines in Smiths ::)
-
Alright, I ordered a copy from Northstar (together with the Limited edition WotR captain mini) and it came today. I browsed the rulebook and it looks really interesting. I like the emphasis on commanders and how you can personalize them - but not too much so it does not get complicated. I've got a table setup to do a little "me vs me" later today.
-
"Okay Cubs, you've got this, you're painting those Napoleonic models for the article, your Star Wars guys are on hold, your WW2 Paras are on hold, your Gael-Norse are on hold, your Italo-Normans are on hold, your WW2 Early War guys are on hold, your Oldhammer Orcs are on hold, your Zulu War Brits are on hold and as for your Wars of the Roses guys ... well, nothing's happened to inspire you on that front for some time."
*Reads this thread.
"Goddammit ..."
-
The rules look interesting on first read. Will certainly give them a go.
Are they a short version of a full medieval ruleset or a full stand alone? I can see lots of extensions possible i Chevauchee/100YW, Barons Wars, Scottish/Border wars.......
-
Just finished my first practice game and Yorkist Maks won (which may just be because I do consider myself a Yorkist :D)
I had to simplify some stuff to fit my 4'x3' board and the fact that I was playing against myself, but this was fast and very bloody. I had two roughly equal forces (each side had 2 units of archers and 2 units of other infantry split into two wards consisting of 1 archery + 1 infantry unit and a commander) and the armies started roughly 30" from each other, but it was all over in 2 turns. Yorkists decimated the Lancastrian infantry with bows and two well timed charges by their infantry. That was enough to get all the morale tokens.
Overall, I liked it very much. With a bigger table, bigger armies and establishing some fluff (like personalize commanders) this looks like a very good "weekday evening" game. Gotta get some of my mates to come and try it out. And, of course, build bigger armies :D
-
M, looking at the rules and conclusions you've drawn, how big do you reckon would be the army you need? The Knights of the Oblong Table have been living in peace and harmony with each other for a year now...
I'm suspicioned that's about to change!
:)
-
"Okay Cubs, you've got this, you're painting those Napoleonic models for the article, your Star Wars guys are on hold, your WW2 Paras are on hold, your Gael-Norse are on hold, your Italo-Normans are on hold, your WW2 Early War guys are on hold, your Oldhammer Orcs are on hold, your Zulu War Brits are on hold and as for your Wars of the Roses guys ... well, nothing's happened to inspire you on that front for some time."
*Reads this thread.
"Goddammit ..."
Cubs mate, you cannot believe the joy and contentment I feel after reading your heartfelt snivel...
I really thought, it was only me who got into tangles like that!
:'(
-
I'll be playing for the first time tomorrow. I'll follow up with some pics and thoughts. Meanwhile, done a wee vid on the Utubes having had a read through and got an overview.
https://youtu.be/G90cKQ8lCyk (https://youtu.be/G90cKQ8lCyk)
-
Thanks Winston. I'll take a look :)
As of this morning, my local W H Smiths still have a stack of the August WI issue on the shelves, no sign of September's WI yet ::)
-
Cubs mate, you cannot believe the joy and contentment I feel after reading your heartfelt snivel...
I really thought, it was only me who got into tangles like that!
:'(
The struggle is real.
-
Harry,
The armies I played were between 70 and 80 points, I reckon 100 points per side (and not relying on Men-at-arms to pad up the numbers) will give a good game. But I also think even something like 150 would still be relatively "single evening"
-
The struggle is real.
Go on Cubs, you know you want to... Brave young Owen Lloyd, the dastardly Turbervilles, and Lordship of Kenfig Castle await... ;)
-
Go on Cubs, you know you want to... Brave young Owen Lloyd, the dastardly Turbervilles, and Lordship of Kenfig Castle await... ;)
Rhys ap Thomas ... a very interesting character and powerful landowner, despite not being a member of the nobility and only knighted on the field at Bosworth by Henry Tudor.
-
Harry,
The armies I played were between 70 and 80 points, I reckon 100 points per side (and not relying on Men-at-arms to pad up the numbers) will give a good game. But I also think even something like 150 would still be relatively "single evening"
Thanks for that, appreciated... the Knights of the Oblong Table are getting restless!
::)
-
Nice video Winston, just the right approach I thought.
I'm currently working on a review of Billhooks and the stat's for Irish/Border Horse and Galloglaich. It's an easy enough conversion.
-
After watching the video (cheers Winston) these rules look perfect for the Battle of Ferrybridge which was the prelude to Towton!
A game that I have always very much wanted to play as defeat to the Lancastrian or Yorkists one way or the other had such an impact on the battle.
Fab stuff. I eagerly await the postman! 8)
-
I'm not sure if I've posted this here before , but here's a link to one of our final play tests of Billhooks from my blog. It should help to give a flavour of how the game works:
https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/never-mind-the-bill-hooks-new-battle-report/
I hope that it is useful.
-
I'm not sure if I've posted this here before , but here's a link to one of our final play tests of Billhooks from my blog. It should help to give a flavour of how the game works:
https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/never-mind-the-bill-hooks-new-battle-report/
I hope that it is useful.
I'll have a good read through it later tonight.
Do you think that game is playable without resorting to single bases in movement trays- I suppose it would work just as well using casualty markers?
Most of my Late Med. stuff is based (loosely) on 40mm ox 40mm- larger when I feel it's called for.
(I'm not a big fan of rebasing at all)
-
I'd say it very easily is. Keep track of casualties and it will al work.
-
This chap seems to have crept under the radar perhaps? A special miniature to go with the rules, available from North Star.
(https://www.northstarfigures.com/images/0/img14940.jpg)
https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=14940
I ordered one as soon as I saw it. Looks like he'll fit in great with Perry sculpts, and funnily enough I was just now wishing the Perrys had some more men-at-arms with livery jackets in good poses for fitting into a unit. Just what I needed! (though mine will be wearing French livery)
-
Lovely figure, shame that's a polaxe not a billhook...
-
i have to ask; was there ever any consideration of calling the rules, "Never Mind the Ballock Dagger"? :D
-
After watching the video (cheers Winston) these rules look perfect for the Battle of Ferrybridge which was the prelude to Towton!
A game that I have always very much wanted to play as defeat to the Lancastrian or Yorkists one way or the other had such an impact on the battle.
Fab stuff. I eagerly await the postman! 8)
Cheers and Ferrybridge - that's a good shout! Plenty more like it as well.
-
I'm not sure if I've posted this here before , but here's a link to one of our final play tests of Billhooks from my blog. It should help to give a flavour of how the game works:
https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/never-mind-the-bill-hooks-new-battle-report/
I hope that it is useful.
Ah I'd not found that yet Steve, thanks. Really enjoying the rules so far.
-
Lovely figure, shame that's a polaxe not a billhook...
Plenty of room to paint up as a Burgundian in that case! :D
Definitely looking forward to picking up a copy of the rules, not seen the September issue turn up in WH Smiths yet though!
-
I'm not sure if I've posted this here before , but here's a link to one of our final play tests of Billhooks from my blog. It should help to give a flavour of how the game works:
https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/never-mind-the-bill-hooks-new-battle-report/
I hope that it is useful.
Ive also read there's going to be laminated cards and acryclic tokens for this from yourselves but can't see these avaliable?
Are you selling those as of yet or are they to follow later on?
For the goggle inept (me) a link if there up would be handy :)
Thanks.
-
Cheers and Ferrybridge - that's a good shout! Plenty more like it as well.
I've had it in mid as a display game at a show for many a year but never really got around to doing it as there were no real mid level skirmish games out there for the Wars of the Roses. I'm not a huge believer that one rule set can be adapted to suit all periods, in rare cases some can, but most lose the feel for the period the rules were designed to capture very quickly in my experience.
So, very happy that these are coming out and I can't wait to read them :)
-
This chap seems to have crept under the radar perhaps? A special miniature to go with the rules, available from North Star.
(https://www.northstarfigures.com/images/0/img14940.jpg)
https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=14940
I ordered one as soon as I saw it. Looks like he'll fit in great with Perry sculpts, and funnily enough I was just now wishing the Perrys had some more men-at-arms with livery jackets in good poses for fitting into a unit. Just what I needed! (though mine will be wearing French livery)
Charlie, he is a bit "beefier" than the Perrys, but definitely not unreasonable. I have a nice diorama with him in mind, hopefully will find some time to make it in the nearest fututre.
-
Got the rules yesterday. I have to say first read through they look good.
They are well laid out, easy to read and (I think really importantly) contain great examples of play.
All my WOTR stuff is based on multiples of 4 so easy to adapt. Might have to set up a game at the club when we start back up.
-
If you are struggling to get your Wargames Magazines, we carry Miniature Wargames, Wargames Soldiers and Strategy and of course, Wargames Illustrated. We have had some supply issues with Miniature Wargames due to Covid but have plenty of WI on order. We have also sold through recent releases quite quickly. You can see current availabilty here:
https://arcanesceneryandmodels.co.uk/product-category/wargames-magazines/
Gotta say dude, that was a fast turnaround, I got the mag less than 24hrs after ordering! I couldn't see September's WI on the Northstar site (maybe it's out of stock already) so I went to Arcane yesterday and now it's in front of me.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/24/47/9524472f97ec1cfe00c5b80624d53ebe.gif)
-
Gotta say dude, that was a fast turnaround, I got the mag less than 24hrs after ordering! I couldn't see September's WI on the Northstar site (maybe it's out of stock already) so I went to Arcane yesterday and now it's in front of me.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/24/47/9524472f97ec1cfe00c5b80624d53ebe.gif)
I wish I had thought of that..... I ordered a couple of Vallejo pots from arcane and they were there the next day! Superb service!
Note to self- order paints and mags from Arcane!
-
To pick up a couple of points. Yes, multi based figures are fine for the game. In the early play tests we used some multi based units and just used a dice to record casualties until we could remove a base. The only issue to look out for is that as you remove a multi base, you are depleting the front rank of a unit, so your opponent needs to accept that the front rank is still full as the rules enable you to remove casualties from the rear rank, leaving the fron rank full to continue the fight!
The figure shown is of 'Lord Callan' produced by War Games Illustrated as a Giant in Miniature to go with Bill Hooks. As North Star actually cast these figures they are available from them and Wargames Illustrated. I will take great delight in letting Andy know that the figure looks a bit chunky...although it is a case of pot and kettle for me :).
And thanks for all the orders! We still have plenty of mags in stock and we post out by first class post ASAP on receipt of your order so if postie is on form, you should get it PDQ!
It's good to see a positive response to the game. We have had great fun with it and 'personalizing' your army commanders just adds to the enjoyment. I hope that you enjoy the game as much as we have.
-
I was undecided whether to paint my growing collection as historical or do a Captain Blood-esque "make you own noblemen" thing. But these rules kinda swung it for the latter.
-
Gave up trying to find a copy in Smiths so oredered from Arcane :)
Addendum
Fantastic service from Arcane the magazine arrived the next day (today).
-
I was undecided whether to paint my growing collection as historical or do a Captain Blood-esque "make you own noblemen" thing. But these rules kinda swung it for the latter.
In the end, mine are mainly local nobility based on various bigwig families from my area, but also with some historical factions - the Howards, and of course, a sizable contingent of Yorkist Plantagenets... It’s fun to mix and match :)
I wish I had thought of that..... I ordered a couple of Vallejo pots from arcane and they were there the next day! Superb service!
Note to self- order paints and mags from Arcane!
I’ve ordered a lot of things from Arcane down the last few years, and I always hold them up as a great example of top notch customer service. The delivery speed is always amazing. Thanks Steve :)
-
'Ello again. First play through and overview video DONE. And loads of fun it was too. On the UTubesl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIdC-ws_VY
-
'Ello again. First play through and overview video DONE. And loads of fun it was too. On the UTubesl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIdC-ws_VY
Aww thanks Willy. Vids of "How To's" are a very useful tool sop kudos for posting.
I’ve ordered a lot of things from Arcane down the last few years, and I always hold them up as a great example of top notch customer service. The delivery speed is always amazing. Thanks Steve :)
Me too. I just didn't think of it..... a very duh! moment lol
-
I bought a copy of Wargames Illustrated this month. The reason being Andy Callan’s Never Mind The Billhooks WOTR rules are included as a give-away.
I’m very pleased I did so.
Never Mind The Billhooks (NMTBH) is an excellent stand alone rule set. There are many influences at play. Cards and Army Morale Points remind me of Piquet. Saving throws that improve with armour have a venerable history. The whole is seemlessly worked together to produce a fast- moving game.
There’s a review on my blog if NMTBH if it’s of interest to you. I’ve also made up some stats for Galloglaich and Irish Horse should you want to extend operations to Ireland.
https://youdonotknowthenorth.blogspot.com
-
I really like your blog, by the way. I often end up on it as you cover a lot of areas I am interested in.
I will definitely be picking up this issue of the magazine, despite not having any WOTR figures.
-
Thanks Ockius, that's good to hear.
My first consignment of 15mm WOTR figures should arrive today with a bit of luck. I'm keen to find out just how big they are in terms of mixing and matching.
-
For those interested, I asked Andy a few questions yesterday on the facebook group and got following clarifications:
1) Units that are forced to retreat after failing a morale check will be broken and destroyed if the move takes them off the table. Similarly, any unit that has to follow them will also be gone.
2) At the end of your turn, any unit that is not daunted and has not been activated may rally a "disordered" token WITHOUT HAVING A LEADER ATTACHED (this is actually erroneously written in the cribsheet)
It's nice to get the info straight from the source :D
-
For those interested, I asked Andy a few questions yesterday on the facebook group and got following clarifications:
1) Units that are forced to retreat after failing a morale check will be broken and destroyed if the move takes them off the table. Similarly, any unit that has to follow them will also be gone.
2) At the end of your turn, any unit that is not daunted and has not been activated may rally a "disordered" token WITHOUT HAVING A LEADER ATTACHED (this is actually erroneously written in the cribsheet)
It's nice to get the info straight from the source :D
Can I suggest that we start a Billhooks Rules Questions thread separately (please)? I suspect that more rules questions will be raised and not necessarily on this thread(?). Just an idea ???
-
Or just join the Fb group :)
(I just did :))
-
Thanks Ockius, that's good to hear.
My first consignment of 15mm WOTR figures should arrive today with a bit of luck. I'm keen to find out just how big they are in terms of mixing and matching.
What make are you getting? I haven't looked at WOTR at all, but I have been collecting and now painting a Henrician English army, which still has all the bows and bills. For that era the choice is quite limited, but I have got Khurasan's models which are excellent and seem period accurate.
-
Or just join the Fb group :)
(I just did :))
Speaking for myself- already done.
But, I was thinking that some people don't use Facebook so might need another avenue if they have any queries ;) :)
-
QRF 15mm WOTR, my first for this period.
The Khurasan Henrician English look great. I have both sides for Flodden. My Scots are from the old Steve Shaw Feudal castings range and I think they would fit better with the Khurasan figures than the English I currently have.
I might re-purpose my English for the early rebellions against Henry using Billhooks. Then I could buy the Khurasan English to face my Scots.
-
Fair point.
Probably okay to keep it to this thread though. Since the rules discussion is already taking place here :)
-
Fair point.
Probably okay to keep it to this thread though. Since the rules discussion is already taking place here :)
That's a fair point too :)
-
Nice, I looked into QRF for my Henricians as they had quite a good range for that too. I think I may buy their Demi lancers and Border horse, as I am not a fan of Khurasan’s versions (they have disproportionately chunky lances that I can’t reconcile myself to).
-
Do have a look at Scale Creep too they now have the Steve Shaw Feudal Castings WOTR range. I agree about the Khurasan cavalry not their most inspired work. The lad in the bonnet and cloak below is a QRF Demilancer next to some Essex miniatures to give you an idea of the size.
-
Issue 393 of Wargames Illustrated has just hit the shelves on the UK high street and included is a free rules supplement from Andy Callan.
They look to be a very nice and sensible set and have been well presented by the magazine. I have posted a quick early appraisal on my blog if this interests anyone. Thank you WI, very good. LINK
http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.com/2020/08/never-mind-billhooks-free-rules.html
-
Issue 393 of Wargames Illustrated has just hit the shelves on the UK high street and included is a free rules supplement from Andy Callan.
They look to be a very nice and sensible set and have been well presented by the magazine. I have posted a quick early appraisal on my blog if this interests anyone. Thank you WI, very good. LINK
http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.com/2020/08/never-mind-billhooks-free-rules.html
Nice concise review. I got my copy yesterday through the post and have another 24 hours of quarantine time before I can read through it so much appreciated.... strange times..... :)
-
Ive also read there's going to be laminated cards and acryclic tokens for this from yourselves but can't see these avaliable?
Are you selling those as of yet or are they to follow later on?
For the goggle inept (me) a link if there up would be handy :)
Thanks.
Steve, not sure you answered this one? I’d be interested in a set of cards, rather than cutting up the supplement. I guess I could scan them all, reprint them and laminate them, but that would be a heck of a palaver. I read somewhere in the rules or the accompanying article, that you and WI would be stocking the, um.. printed ephemera. But I can’t see any sign of these in either your webshop or WI’s. Am I being dim and failing to look somewhere obvious? Or has it been decided not to produce these printed assets after all?
Ta.
-
Available here?
https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Cards-Tokens-Cribsheet.pdf
-
Available here?
https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Cards-Tokens-Cribsheet.pdf
Thanks for reposting the Question Captain.
But rather than just pdfs it was advising actual professional set of tokens and gubbins also due to be provided by Arcane Scenary and avaliable via WI shop.
I think Captain B, and myself have read the same info, which may just be a carry over from when first written at the start of the year before the pandemic and the disruption thats followed delayed release and pbulication.
Could do with an update from Mr Arcane to settle the questin I think.
-
Yep. Just so.
Thanks for the link LT, but as AdmiralAndy says, the magazine and / or the rules refer to the availability of printed cards etc. Which would be better than printing out the pdf, snipping it up with scissors, and then trying to arrange two bits of snipped up paper back to back and sealing them with a laminator (although that is definitely a step up from dissecting the supplement itself :))
Of course, if it has to be the Blue Peter method, that’s absolutely fine, and I’m sure most people will make do with that.
But there was mention of properly printed cards and tokens to go with the game, and if they’re going to become available at some point soon, then I will hold off with my safety scissors and Copydex ;)
-
Ah, right. I’ll be interested in the professional set but tbh I rather enjoy making my own cards for most games.
The rules read well, I can see my WotR project getting back on the workbench very very soon.
-
I am at present trying the Blue Peter method for cards and tokens but would be interested in a profesionally produces set.
-
To be honest, I’ll probably end up making my own cunningly disguised tokens to fit with my terrain, ‘cos I can’t stick a litter of brightly coloured chits on the tabletop. Ruins the look of a wargame for me, although I appreciate I’m in a minority since most people don’t care about that. But a pukka set of the cards would be very useful.
-
Have thought about using wounded minis to represent Disarray and Daunted. Old Glory and Perry's have ranges so I would use wounded minis for Disarray and dead minis for Daunted. I like the idea but it does mean extra figures to paint and I still have a lot to paint as it is.
PS. I've just thought of a cheaper way, I will use some of the spare plastic Perry weapons on a base to represent discarded weapons for Disarray, they would match the Disarray tokens in the rules as well.
-
Have thought about using wounded minis to represent Disarray and Daunted. Old Glory and Perry's have ranges so I would use wounded minis for Disarray and dead minis for Daunted. I like the idea but it does mean extra figures to paint and I still have a lot to paint as it is.
PS. I've just thought of a cheaper way, I will use some of the spare plastic Perry weapons on a base to represent discarded weapons for Disarray, they would match the Disarray tokens in the rules as well.
That's my line of thinking too. I have a bit of an aversion to seeing paper counters or plastic markers on the tabletop unless it can be avoided. I'm going to use casualties and the Warbases Custom Casualty Bases as per :)
-
Have thought about using wounded minis to represent Disarray and Daunted. Old Glory and Perry's have ranges so I would use wounded minis for Disarray and dead minis for Daunted. I like the idea but it does mean extra figures to paint and I still have a lot to paint as it is.
PS. I've just thought of a cheaper way, I will use some of the spare plastic Perry weapons on a base to represent discarded weapons for Disarray, they would match the Disarray tokens in the rules as well.
Yeah, luckily I have already done a few squashed plastic figures (below), which I think will serve for disarray or daunted markers. I might have to make several more, but they're quite good fun to do, and it's good to finally find a use for them :)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/10/577_06_05_12_2_25_13_1.JPG)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/6/577_04_06_10_12_22_58_1.jpg)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/5/577_30_01_10_2_14_58.jpg)
These are the 'wavering' markers I made recently for The Pikeman's Lament - I was going with your idea of discarded weapons, but then decided cannonballs were easier lol
Thinking about it, these will probably do for NMTBH too...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/44/577-290220130133-44225625.jpeg)
And these are order tokens I made for Iron Cross... Same kind of idea. Spare plastic bits on a little base. Job done.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/27/577_21_03_17_4_25_24_0.JPG)
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/27/577_21_03_17_4_25_24_1.JPG)
Fussy, I know, but I just can't stand the visual litter of lots of day-glo plastic chits or printed tokens.
And don't get me started having cards full of information laid alongside every unit on the tabletop. Ugh! Might as well play a boardgame ;)
-
He's off again! This is one of the dear captain's favourite rants, I think. We've certainly read it enough times. :)
As for myself, I don't mind my games looking like a board game. I like board games. Providing the tokens and cards look smart and professionally done. But I am happy to admit that casualty figures and markers made from stuff out of the bits box are by far the best option.
Those ones are simply great, Richard. Just the ticket!
-
Had a pleasant Saturday afternoon in the Occifer's Mess perusing the magazine and free rules. I'm lucky to have a horde of suitable warriors kicking their heels in the shape of the Knights of the Oblong Table. A cogitation has been had concerning a new leader in the shape of the latest 'Hero in Miniature', methinks I can feel a Sir Harry Hotshite coming on!
:-*
-
Love your casualty markers Captain, will have to try and copy your ideas.
-
He's off again! This is one of the dear captain's favourite rants, I think. We've certainly read it enough times. :)
Oh I know. Dog with a bone ;)
Love your casualty markers Captain, will have to try and copy your ideas.
Copy away. I got so excited I just spent an enjoyable couple of hours crushing together various bits of Perry plastic to make several more ‘dead’ markers. Hopefully pictures of the (unpainted) new creations on my long dormant WOTR thread tomorrow, once I’ve blended the unfortunate corpses into their bases...
-
Copy away. I got so excited I just spent an enjoyable couple of hours crushing together various bits of Perry plastic to make several more ‘dead’ markers. Hopefully pictures of the (unpainted) new creations on my long dormant WOTR thread tomorrow, once I’ve blended the unfortunate corpses into their bases...
I would be interested in a detailed guide as to how you do it, I've made one or two casualties from the plastics in the past, but would like ideas for more.
-
I would be interested in a detailed guide as to how you do it, I've made one or two casualties from the plastics in the past, but would like ideas for more.
Well you are a Perry plastic building adept, Charlie, so I'm sure yours are extremely good, but yes, I'll stick something up on my own WOTR thread later, once I've taken some pics...
(But the trick, in a nutshell, is in using the groundwork to make sense of the corpse you've made... More later... :))
EDIT: Now showing here... https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1815 8)
Now, back to the billhooks! ;)
-
Sorry about the late reply to the thread. We are still waiting on the Tokens and cards. Both items are now over due and expected any time this week. As soon as they arrive I'll put a note on the thread. I can only apologise for the delay, they were ordered well in advance but best laid plans and all that! Regards, Steve
-
Sorry about the late reply to the thread. We are still waiting on the Tokens and cards. Both items are now over due and expected any time this week. As soon as they arrive I'll put a note on the thread. I can only apologise for the delay, they were ordered well in advance but best laid plans and all that! Regards, Steve
Are you going to be getting them in stock Steve?
If so, will the cards have a laminated option or be on glossy thick card?
-
Got the rules the other day and after a quick flick through ,I must say I like them.
-
Andy Callan tells me there will be a 'Bill Hooks' Stoke Field scenario designed by him in the next Wargames Illustrated.
-
I ran a few rounds of combat last night with different unit types and enjoyed the flow, though noticed that there is nothing that really differentiates Pike from Billmen. I don’t know enough about the period to know whether there should be greater differentiation. Would for example cavalry charging good ordered pikes be an issue?
-
I ran a few rounds of combat last night with different unit types and enjoyed the flow, though noticed that there is nothing that really differentiates Pike from Billmen. I don’t know enough about the period to know whether there should be greater differentiation. Would for example cavalry charging good ordered pikes be an issue?
It's a tricky one IMHO. We're not talking about the speedy huge blocks of pike etc employed by the Swiss and later the Landskneckts. These soldiers were imported on a small scale (ie. not anything like the numbers imported by Henry VIII for his French expedition of 1513) as I'm sure you know.
So, the question arises, how effective would they have been in smaller groups?
-
Norm, pike blocks get to count 4 ranks in the first round of melee if attacking compared to 3 for other close combat troops. I'd say that should do the job. Obviously you need to have two units of pike in block formation to achieve this. That seems right to me.
I suppose if you wanted to make them more resilient against cavalry you might use the same stat for defending pike. Possibly casualties could be drawn from the supporting unit too, rather than the one fighting. Replacements moving forward sort of thing.
The other thing that comes to mind is that formation is very important for pike so should 'Disarray' cause them to revert to 3 ranks?
-
Ah, thank you and I also note that pike can go ‘hedgehog’ and there are no melee re-rolls for Cav V’s Pike
-
Sorry about the late reply to the thread. We are still waiting on the Tokens and cards. Both items are now over due and expected any time this week. As soon as they arrive I'll put a note on the thread. I can only apologise for the delay, they were ordered well in advance but best laid plans and all that! Regards, Steve
Better late than never :)
Look forward to the update on availability.
-
The other thing that comes to mind is that formation is very important for pike so should 'Disarray' cause them to revert to 3 ranks?
Any Disarrayed infantry count only their front rank in melee (p.18, rh column, 1a under The First Round of Melee, and reiterated on p.19 rh column under Continuing Melees). So a bigger differential for pikemen, especially after the second round of melee when both sides are automatically disarrayed.
I was also puzzled at first about the practical difference between pikes and billmen but I reckon the extra rank in initial combat and other details ought to work. Looking forward to trying these rules out - lots of simple but nicely calculated mechanics.
-
Does anyone know whether the loss of a leader (not CO) cause the loss of any Army Morale Tokens?
-
I've just found the ruleset I was sent by someone some time ago...
St Crispin's Day: medieval combat rules for model soldiers.
Anyone had a pop at 'em?
???
-
Does anyone know whether the loss of a leader (not CO) cause the loss of any Army Morale Tokens?
From page 22 (b) it appears that:
If a Leader with a unit is killed as a result of melee or shooting or he is forced to quit a melee, then a Morale Crisis Test is taken. If this is failed and the unit takes a Daunted token, then a Morale token is lost. If the unit is Broken as a result of a failed test then either 1 or 2 Morale toekens are lost depending on the state of the unit, Daunted or Undaunted, before the ‘break’.
So basically, yes if you fail the morale test. If you pass the morale test, well, no-one liked that Leader anyway.
-
Thanks, that makes sense, plus I have not used the leaders as part of the count when first allocating Army Morale Tokens
-
I have put up a bit of an AAR on my blog that covers my first local action, combined with some commentary about the rules.
Two forces at a little over 100 points meet on a small open table (no terrain), with pretty much all of the mechanics coming into play. I really enjoyed the set. Thank you to all concerned for producing Billhooks
LINK
http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.com/2020/09/giving-wotr-billhooks-rules-first-outing.html
-
An interesting and helpful review. Thanks Norm.
-
The cards are now available from Wargames Illustrared £6
https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/shop/never-mind-the-billhooks-card-deck/?fbclid=IwAR1NotgU3_X9rNUsSfL2E7IAhxVeMsPWtG2II63uLg3E-TL2agV9ChmuCx8
-
I've been giving these rules a bit of a look while in the smallest room, and I get the feeling I would like them. I don't suppose I will ever play them, though. Really not in the market for collecting and painting a new period (though if some kind soul was to send me a couple of armies it would be churlish to not play with them - only kidding!).
I really like how the lowest grade of leader is called a'dolt.' Such a good word that you don't hear much these days. When I was small villains in comics were forever calling their minions dolts when they messed up. I'm going to use it in daily life from now on.
"l'm surrounded by dolts!" - That will go down well at work, l'm sure. :)
-
For pros and cons of Pikes in NMTBH I was thinking of what happened at Flodden. The Scottish left hand Pike division attacked in good going, (so, in game terms, all 4 ranks count) and swept all before it. The other divisions came floundering through the boggy ground at the foot of Branxton hill (and so got "Disarrayed" by moving in this bad going which means they count only their front rank) and got chopped to pieces by the English Billmen. The English get 2 rounds of melee to do their business before the whole thing turns into a giant mess, with everyone in disarray and counting only 1 rank. 2 rounds should be enough to win it for them. If the front company in a block loses a melee and is Daunted or Broken by failing the compusory post-melee Morale crisis test, then the one behind it is also Daunted or Broken. A serious loss of Army Morale Tokens!
I will try and keep an eye open for any rules questions that might pop up here. There is also a thriving Facebook page with 150+ members so far which is a good place to see how other people might be interpreting my rules.
-
Thanks Andy, and welcome to Lead Adventure Forum :)
I'm on your Fb group.
Looking forward to trying out the rules once I've got the pukka cards / tokens etc in my sticky mitts.
Edit: Meanwhile, here are my hand-crafted 'Daunted' markers - or the first few of them anyway...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/48/577-050920115516-480742127.jpeg)
More piccies here:
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1860
I really like how the lowest grade of leader is called a'dolt.' Such a good word that you don't hear much these days. When I was small villains in comics were forever calling their minions dolts when they messed up. I'm going to use it in daily life from now on.
Yes, I noticed that. Fabulous word. Nice one Andy lol
-
CRIBSHEET - there is a revised version of the Billhooks Cribsheet, which claries the Turn End sequence, now available as a free download at www.wargamesillustrated.net Go to Posts>NMTBH>Downloads>Cards, Tokens and Cribsheets.
-
CRIBSHEET - there is a revised version of the Billhooks Cribsheet, which claries the Turn End sequence, now available as a free download at www.wargamesillustrated.net Go to Posts>NMTBH>Downloads>Cards, Tokens and Cribsheets.
I've just downloaded the latest.
Thanks for keeping everyone abreast of everything 8)
-
OFFICIAL PLAYING CARDS
My deck of cards arrived today in the post from Wargames illustrated and they are VERY nice. With full colour to backs and front.
They are playing card size and come in a protective plastic tray and fitting lid.
There are some bonus cards that are essentially play aids to highlight some of the sequence of play.
The only thing i don’t understand is that the original deck gives each side 1 x Skirmisher and artillery card, this deck supplies 4 per side, I am not sure how that is meant to work. It perhaps would have been better to have had the additional leader cards that are sold separately.
The whole job for £6 seems like excellent value. Thanks WI.
-
Hi Norm, I think that there were some collating issues with the first batch of cards and the extra Skirmisher cards were included in error. The subsequent packs will only have the correct amount of Skirmisher cards. Better a few spare than a shortage! I hope that helps, regards, Steve
-
Will the cards be available thru the Arcane shop, Steve?
Hi Norm, I think that there were some collating issues with the first batch of cards and the extra Skirmisher cards were included in error. The subsequent packs will only have the correct amount of Skirmisher cards. Better a few spare than a shortage! I hope that helps, regards, Steve
-
Thanks - I note that WI are now also listing spare Leader cards, a good idea to get a pack, so that you can permanently mark your leader cards with a name and have a bigger pool of named leaders to choose from.
-
My additional leader cards arrived today - very fast service. Each pack gives 4 extra cards for each side and are of course a perfect match to the core deck. Thank you WI for getting this support material organised.
-
My additional leader cards arrived today - very fast service. Each pack gives 4 extra cards for each side and are of course a perfect match to the core deck. Thank you WI for getting this support material organised.
I ordered a pack as soon as they were available and received them quickly. Can you tell me, did the extra cards come with the original pack or will I have to put in an order of some description (hopefully free) please Norm?
-
Hi, the core pack exactly reflects the deck that is shown at the rear of the rule book, so each side gets 4 leader cards in the core deck.
I had a very slight collation problem with mine, as I got extra 'skirmisher' cards. I enquired and they were simply extra cards that got into the pack by accident in the first few packs and so are of no use and serve no additional purpose.
4 Leaders cards are fine for the game, but I wanted some bespoke Leader cards to give me a wider pool to select my 'named' leaders at the start of a game to choose from, so I have since ordered the bumper leader pack, which gives 4 additional leader cards for each side. I will make one up as Richard III for sure and the likes of Warwick and Somerset. but I also wanted a few to cover less well known names when I do some family feud type battles / large skirmishes.
They are not necessary to have, but for me, I felt they are a nice addition.
I note they do not have the tokens yet, so the downside to the way I have bought is separate orders needing separate postage as product became available, but I take that on the chin as a response to a wargame mag going the extra mile to get this support material out.
-
Hi, the core pack exactly reflects the deck that is shown at the rear of the rule book, so each side gets 4 leader cards in the core deck.
I had a very slight collation problem with mine, as I got extra 'skirmisher' cards. I enquired and they were simply extra cards that got into the pack by accident in the first few packs and so are of no use and serve no additional purpose.
4 Leaders cards are fine for the game, but I wanted some bespoke Leader cards to give me a wider pool to select my 'named' leaders at the start of a game to choose from, so I have since ordered the bumper leader pack, which gives 4 additional leader cards for each side. I will make one up as Richard III for sure and the likes of Warwick and Somerset. but I also wanted a few to cover less well known names when I do some family feud type battles / large skirmishes.
They are not necessary to have, but for me, I felt they are a nice addition.
I note they do not have the tokens yet, so the downside to the way I have bought is separate orders needing separate postage as product became available, but I take that on the chin as a response to a wargame mag going the extra mile to get this support material out.
Cheers Norm, that clears things up nicely. I thought for a moment I might have got a dud deck- happily all is in order :)
-
You can find War of the Roses charactors here... Wars of the Roses:
A Crown of Paper Campaign Game.
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/request.html
-
You can find War of the Roses charactors here... Wars of the Roses:
A Crown of Paper Campaign Game.
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/request.html
A Crown of Paper is a fun game. 8)
-
Giving NMTBH a try this eve - quite excited! The rules read like they'll be excellent. I love the force being split into Wards, and other aspects look great too, such as blocks of troops feeling like blocks of troops, but without loads of formation rules to tackle!
-
Do let us know how you get on.
-
Skirmishers have a range of 6" inside woods - does that include when they are at the edge of a wood and shooting outward?
-
Skirmishers have a range of 6" inside woods - does that include when they are at the edge of a wood and shooting outward?
My guess would be no, they can shoot as normal out of a wood if within the requisite distance from the edge of the wood; but, I defer to the rules writer for the actual interpretation.
(I haven't played a game yet so probably not the best person to answer this really lol )
-
Yes, shoot from the edge of a wood at a target outside = 12 ins.
Shoot from inside a wood at a target in the same wood 6ins.
No shooting from outside a wood at a target inside a wood.
If you shoot at a target lining the edge of a wood the target counts
as in cover ( go up one armour class). Phew....
-
Yes, shoot from the edge of a wood at a target outside = 12 ins.
Shoot from inside a wood at a target in the same wood 6ins.
No shooting from outside a wood at a target inside a wood.
If you shoot at a target lining the edge of a wood the target counts
as in cover ( go up one armour class). Phew....
Thanks. It will be useful when I can (eventually) get a game in :)
-
Yes, shoot from the edge of a wood at a target outside = 12 ins.
Shoot from inside a wood at a target in the same wood 6ins.
No shooting from outside a wood at a target inside a wood.
If you shoot at a target lining the edge of a wood the target counts
as in cover ( go up one armour class). Phew....
Thank you!
-
I've now perfected my range of different battlefield markers for NMTBH... order tokens, arrow supply, disarrayed, daunted...
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/48/577-180920170654-481741789.jpeg)
More details on my WOTR thread here: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1875 :)
-
Captain Blood
I like those :-* :-* :-*
-
Me too, especially the arrow marker. One to copy I think.
-
As I've stumbled on this ruleset a bit later than most, being in the colonies, I note that the cards are already out of stock at the WI website. Will they be returning to stock soon?
-
As I've stumbled on this ruleset a bit later than most, being in the colonies, I note that the cards are already out of stock at the WI website. Will they be returning to stock soon?
I'm still waiting for it to come into stock at my FLGS; it wasn't there when I stopped in to look for it again on Friday.