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Miniatures Adventure => Call of Cthulhu => Topic started by: MiniPigs on August 21, 2020, 09:16:11 PM
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I am quizzical why all the mounds of boils and eyes, tentacle faced creatures and fishmen seem to be so universally popular? I can see it has a cult following but what makes it more attractive than some of the other sci-fi or pulp genres? It seems to be a force of its own but to an outsider, the creatures seem somewhat limited.
I dont think Ive ever read anything by Lovecraft, thus where to start for a beginner? I really dont know much but if it is this popular, then I wouldnt mind poking around some more.
Also, maybe a good set of rules which can be played solo for this genre?
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Well, from what little I have read*, it almost certainly isn’t his accomplishment as a narrative author, his command of English, his precise turn of phrase or grammatical construction.
I can only suggest it is post-modern nostalgia for offal, in this case tripe. Something shared with the fans of Sax-Rohmer but with less overt racism.
* Bored and curious one day. His writing style could best be described as obnoxiously poor.
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It is a Myth to me.
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Lovecraft wasn't the only author dabbling in the 'Old Gods' and occult style in the 1920's and 30's, and sadly, the racist overtones were only too common in writing from that time (try reading any pulp stories from that time), something which is difficult and unpleasant to read now. His writing style I find overblown and florid (again, quite common for the time) and the pace of his stories is often pedestrian and drags on to an ending that was foreseen waaaay before it arrived.
But for all that, I do like the imaginative nature of the stories, the fact that a lot remains unexplained (leaving the reader's mind to fill in blanks) and chilling nature of otherworldly threats that seem inexorable, like the destruction of our mortal realm by entities without and within, is only being delayed by the best efforts of humanity. I like that the heroes are more likely to be scholars rather than gun-toting champions and the way that the familiar is subtly warped into twisted versions of nature that are all the more disturbing for being close enough to be like a nightmare version of our world, mostly hidden from view but occasionally glimpsed by the curious or unwary. 'The Music of Erich Zann' is one of my favourites that encapsulates this nicely, as is 'The Festival'.
The huge slime creatures of eyeballs and tentacles don't interest me much, but I do like the more subtle horrors, like the human/monster hybrids, the 'sorcerers' using weird sciences to access forbidden powers, or the ever-present threats of beasts living under our feet in subterranean kingdoms. Often it's the 'universe' he and other authors created I enjoy more than the actual stories themselves.
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His technical shortcomings as a writer ( let alone his character flaws) nothwithstanding Lovecraft is an important founder of modern horror literature. Not just with his writing but also the inspiration and guidance he offered to other and younger writers who created the Mythos genre in concert with him. Many writers these days acknowledge this like Stephen King for example.
Many aspects of the current Mythos were not Lovecrafts intention. For example he had no belief in the supernatural or good and evil. His stories more suggested than showed the horrors his protagonists encountered.
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I dont think Ive ever read anything by Lovecraft, thus where to start for a beginner?
I'd recommend The Dunwich Horror as a starting point. Recent reprints, always available.
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I dont think Ive ever read anything by Lovecraft
I'd recommend an audio book, great for a car journey or a series of painting sessions. Dunwich Horror and Shadow Over Innsmouth I downloaded from iTunes. Earlier this year I listened to BBC Radio 4 dramatisations of 'The Case of Charles Dexter Ward' and The Whisperer in the Darkness'. Both were excellent, set in modern times. Hopefully the series will continue.
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I dont think Ive ever read anything by Lovecraft, thus where to start for a beginner?
I wouldn't bother. It isn't really all that novel or frightening because of how much the material has made its way into popular and gaming culture.
I suspect that if I had read the novels and stories when I was younger (like I did with Conan) that it would have had far more of an impact but at this point in time the stories really don't have much effect.
Lovecraft also pales in comparison to modern writers who have 'stood on his shoulders' and expanded the themes he helped popularize.
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Have ago at reading them,if you have a Kindle they are dirt cheap. I would suggest Call of Cthulhu,Shadow Over Innsmouth,and as Orctrader says The Dunwich Horror. I think they still stand up against a lot of modern horror fiction,and despite the sometimes purple prose are subtle moody and evocative.
Thankfully we are all different,I find GRR Martins books appalling,a lot don’t. So give Lovecraft a go,if it’s your thing, It is a whole new world to explore ,if not,no harm done :)
Cheero
Guy
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I must confess that I am a fan of the prose purple! Lovecraft, like Howard and Burroughs, is quite the racist; but nonetheless they were great story tellers and had unquestionably large impacts on the development of pulpy fiction. Folks working in the Mythos these days are doing a bang-up job of addressing his racism head on.
I've enjoyed reading the originals as well as modern works.
For a really nice cross-wiring of worlds, Shadows Over Baker Street edited by Neal Gaimon is a topflight collection, headlined by one of Gaimon's own stories.
For a delightfully cheekier cross-over, Scream For Jeeves by Peter Cannon is brilliant. Used copies fetch a dear price these days, but electronic versions are out there.
Despite what miniature manufacturers convey, many of the top stories don't feature tentacled squishy things. The Rats in the Walls, and Pickman's Model are great horror.
The Night Gallery did a great TV episode of Pickman:
https://www.nbc.com/night-gallery/video/pickmans-model/3969156
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It's a good question, I certainly never expected the character Cthulhu to go so mainstream. I was astounded by the amount of Cthulhu merch at GenCon several years ago, seemed like every other booth had a Cthulhu plush or some other mash-up version of the character.
I for one love the mythos, I drift away for years and always find myself coming back to it. My first experience was with the RPG around age 12, and I was soon into the books. The whole concept seemed very 'new' at the time I discovered it.
The character of Cthulhu is like any other nerd culture thing that got big enough that people know who he is, whether or not you know the author or overall 'franchise'. Cthulhu even showed up in an episode of the animated "Real Ghostbusters" cartoon in the 80s. Edgy! He's sort of a Godzilla type entity, which people seem to like.
As for modern revisitations and reworkings, there's some good stuff out there. I loved "Deep Roots" and "Winter Tide" by Emrys.
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the creatures seem somewhat limited.
I'd say the Mythos aren't really about the creatures, but rather about the horror of discovering that we don't know the "truth" about the world we live in, that humanity is insignificant, and that the cosmos doesn't really care about humans (and often that the main character doesn't know his real heritage).
It's just that the creatures are easier to do, so many authors took the monsters only (like the Call of Cthulhu RPG, which often was just pulp adventure with tentacles) - plus you cannot sell "cosmic horror" plushies. ;)
I dont think Ive ever read anything by Lovecraft, thus where to start for a beginner?
I'd recommend The Colour Out of Space, which IMHO is the best story.
Have ago at reading them,if you have a Kindle they are dirt cheap.
Lovecraft's stories are in the public domain, no need to pay or them. ;)
Lovecraft also pales in comparison to modern writers who have 'stood on his shoulders' and expanded the themes he helped popularize.
Any titles you'd recommend?
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"Any titles you'd recommend?" Sarmor, I'd recommend a couple of fairly recent collections: 'Black Wings Of Cthulhu' (vols. 1-6) put together by the noted Lovecraft scholar (yes, such a thing exists in thet wonderful world of academia) S.T. Joshi and ' The Book Of Cthulhu' (vols 1&2) put together by Ross E. Lockheart. Both contain stories from a wide variety of contributors, from con contemporaries of Lovecraft (like Pugmire, Robert Howard etc.) to modern writers like Ramsey Campbell and Caitlin Kiernan.
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Spoiler Alert.
It can now safely be revealed that HP Lovecraft is the author behind Q Anon.
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"Lovecraft Country" on HBO Nordic doesn't channel Lovecraft very well, so far. Stranger Things comes much closer, even if it is not directly based on his novels.
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I'd say the Mythos aren't really about the creatures, but rather about the horror of discovering that we don't know the "truth" about the world we live in, that humanity is insignificant, and that the cosmos doesn't really care about humans (and often that the main character doesn't know his real heritage).
That sums it up well. The creatures are not usually even described well by Lovecraft, representing the fact that they don't fit with a human minds concept of reality. That is why Cthulhu figures big in the imagery, even through he is not a big part of the mythos. He was described in recognisable details (octopus head, dragon body, pair of atrophied wings)
Lovecraft isn't to everyone's taste. I remember reading Mountains of Madness as a teenager and losing interest pretty quickly. I returned to it 20 years later and enjoyed it immensely, once I realised the nature of the mythos. Shadow over Innsmouth would be my recommendation for a starter.
Why is it popular? Reading the stories leaves a mark on your psyche. I'm an atheist, but of all of the worlds mythologies, this is strangely the most believable. Sweet dreams Azathoth.
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This should answer all your questions - lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kQuMVffbWA
Having watched this why not love the whole Cthulhu mythos... see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos
Whilst I do not wargame it I have roleplayed it and I am a huge fan of Lovecraft. Not to mention the music inspired by it. see: https://www.kerrang.com/features/thy-horror-cosmic-celebrating-metals-obsession-with-h-p-lovecraft/
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and of course Hey there Cthulhu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxScTbIUvoA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxScTbIUvoA)
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That sums it up well. The creatures are not usually even described well by Lovecraft, representing the fact that they don't fit with a human minds concept of reality. That is why Cthulhu figures big in the imagery, even through he is not a big part of the mythos. He was described in recognisable details (octopus head, dragon body, pair of atrophied wings).
This describes me looking through the 3rd edition hardback. Spending five minutes looking at a drawing of a mythos creature and still not understanding what it was I was supposed to be perceiving. I knew I had to have that book :)
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Not to forget Cthulhu's great archnemesis:
http://www.hello-cthulhu.com/?date=2003-11-30
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Lengthy article here on why and how Lovecraft was so influential. Also gives a shout out to one of the really good modern books, The Ballad of Black Tom.
https://www.vox.com/culture/21363945/hp-lovecraft-racism-examples-explained-what-is-lovecraftian-weird-fiction
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Good call Cat :)
Any of ST Joshi's books are worth read too,and he covers critical analysis of other horror genres/ periods
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I really do think that the genre is better suited for RPGs than tabletop games. You can dig into the issues better in an rpg as the monsters are really the least disturbing part of the stories.
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I've used Deep Ones in a few games, and I have had Cthulhu appeared as a band of unsuspecting adventurers stormed a deep sea oil rig and found a band of cultists in the act of summoning Him (Rising from the ocean, sinking a ship and then going back down to R'Lyeh after all his edible cultists were blown up). But, yes, RPG style games are a better format for this genre.
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After reading the article Cat posted I think I need to rethink my fondness for Cold Onr Hybrids.
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I have been reading my way through Corporate Cthulu: Lovecraftian Tales of Bureaucratic Nightmare. It is a series of short stories, which can be everything from cheeky to attempting horror or discomfort. Enjoyable though, and certainly more so after spending a couple decades working for the government, and doing the white collar corporate thing. Finding out that a big box store has abysmal human resources policies because they serve an evil being actually makes more sense than the truth of the world. lol
14 by Peter Clines was a pretty good read too. Has a good element of uncovering a mystery and getting that "we don't understand anything" feeling.
Anything by Lovecraft is hard to read, but so is anything by Mary Shelley or any author of a time when language was different. Just one of those things you accept and trudge through because the story itself adds some nice nuggets to the imagination machine in your head.
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If people haven't started watching Lovecraft Country they should. Wonderful inversion of the premise of the genre
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If people haven't started watching Lovecraft Country they should. Wonderful inversion of the premise of the genre
The book is pretty good too :)
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Lovecraft's genius, well supported by August Derleth, Clark Aston Smith et al...
And then of course Sandy Petersen
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Best story, maybe Innsmouth or Dunwich but the short ones are good too - Music of Eric Zahn etc. Mountains is good as well, as is Dreams in the Witch House.
Have a listen here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jzmv
and if you can track it down
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015flq5
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As for the place of racism, which is only one aspect of him as a misanthrope, as mentioned above the context of 100 years ago cannot be forgotten/ignored. (Even shows from the 1970s and 80s like Fawlty Towers or the Sweeny are now worse than shocking). The place of anyone who is not white and a man has been (and still is) a massive problem in all art forms and wider society as a whole is many cultures... the place of the other, frontiers and alienation all depends on time, context etc...
While there are those that might not like Lovecraft or his writings (he didn't much like them either) his importance cannot be underestimated... but as with many, many "artists" he had many flaws
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Why is it popular? Reading the stories leaves a mark on your psyche. I'm an atheist, but of all of the worlds mythologies, this is strangely the most believable. Sweet dreams Azathoth.
This is a key part of it, the books make you ask yourself questions about what you believe and how you ttreat others. An of course the reader projects his/her views on to the story and this is what maintaons the interest of thought provoking tales.
Plus the 1920s are Kooool
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Best story, maybe Innsmouth or Dunwich but the short ones are good too - Music of Eric Zahn etc. Mountains is good as well, as is Dreams in the Witch House.
Have a listen here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007jzmv
and if you can track it down
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b015flq5
Oh yes and the Whisperer in the Darkness
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I dont think Ive ever read anything by Lovecraft, thus where to start for a beginner? I really dont know much but if it is this popular, then I wouldnt mind poking around some more.
Also, maybe a good set of rules which can be played solo for this genre?
I recommend Pulp Alley rules with the solo card deck and the horror card deck. It seems designed for this type of supernatural horror. Characters can be given investigative skills rather than combat skills if desired. I believe the author, Dave Phipps, has produced at least one scenario set in the Mythos, and he intends to produce more. He has a lot of videos on YouTube, including some on using the solo and horror card decks. Don't need a lot of figures or space for the system.
I read some Lovecraft many years ago. The writing was terrible. Call of Cthulhu wasn't too bad. Mountains of Madness was tedious in the extreme. Colour Out of Space was my favorite. The one thing I liked best about this dreck was that the alien entities had no sympathy for humans at all, if they even noticed humans in any way. They had their own agendas and humans were basically irrelevant. It was the opposite of Star Trek, in which the various captains of whichever generation of the Enterprise find some way to reason with or divert some alien menace. Lovecraft's aliens cannot be reasoned with in any way. That did produce a sense of horror.
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Hey, late to the party, and my first post. Been tied up doing other stuff.
Lovecraft is a divisive author. I love his work, others can't get past his mores, which were odd even by the standards of the day.
Both of Lovecraft's parents died while confined in a psychiatric hospital, and as a child he had chorea minor, and later what appears to have been atypical depression. He also died at age 46; health outcomes back then were poor, and today we know that both genetics and the environment can affect how people grow up to become who they are.
None of which forgives his bigotry.
However, labeling past authors as racists and bigots, suppressing their work, is the first step of turning people into 'things.' Real diversity means tolerating ideas antithetical to your own; arguing against them not with emotional outbursts, but reason.
So, to deny his contribution to SF&F for being a bad person is just plain wrong.
Lovecraft created a modern tradition of cosmic horror rooted in existential nihilism. He explored the delusions of living in an anthropomorphic universe, and addressed mankind's insignificance in the greater scheme of things.
This alone is an argument that Lovecraft's influence transcends his feet of clay. That and the fact that he is still being discussed till this day, inspiring writers to create cosmic horror, says it all.
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Lovecraft is a divisive author. I love his work, others can't get past his mores, which were odd even by the standards of the day. None of which forgives his bigotry.
However, labeling past authors as racists and bigots, suppressing their work, is the first step of turning people into 'things.' Real diversity means tolerating ideas antithetical to your own; arguing against them not with emotional outbursts, but reason.
So, to deny his contribution to SF&F for being a bad person is just plain wrong.
Lovecraft created a modern tradition of cosmic horror rooted in existential nihilism. He explored the delusions of living in an anthropomorphic universe, and addressed mankind's insignificance in the greater scheme of things.
This alone is an argument that Lovecraft's influence transcends his feet of clay. That and the fact that he is still being discussed till this day, inspiring writers to create cosmic horror, says it all.
I agree. His faults as a person should not eliminate his work as valueless. The language is different than what we expect now but not that hard to read in my opinion. Granted I first read LPH (Robert Howard, Bierce, Mencken, Poe...) when I was young and very forgiving but dismissing their work as others have done it better or with more readily accessible prose is missing the point - they did it then. I have enjoyed all of his writings as well as the mythos work by Derleth and Clark Ashton Smith. I have not yet worked my way through all his letters but the volumes collected and annotated by S.T. Joshi capture HPL and his correspondents view as well as the society at the time.
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Paint it pink : a level headed argument if ever I heard one, quite rare in these hysterical times but very welcome.
I've got my own copies that won't be going in the memory hole :)
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Whilst I quite enjoy some of the stories I wouldnt count myself as a massive fan, but much like with Conan I thoroughly enjoy things that have taken the source material and expanded it. With Lovecraft there is the Call of Cthulhu rpg (and its spin offs taking the mythos into the Roman era and dark age Britain among others, which are great fun) and also some really.good board games. Im a big fan of the new edition of Arkham Horror by FFG, which is also a very good solo game. https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/8/1/arkham-horror-third-edition/
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I've enjoyed this thoughtful discussion. Acknowledge the impact and legacy of the writer without glorifying his views. Use his legacy as a means to teach. Eliminating his name from the award was completely appropriate.
If only the roots of our American Civil War could be discussed similarly, we would probably be in a better place.
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If only the roots of our American Civil War could be discussed similarly, we would probably be in a better place.
That will take a very long time
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Also gives a shout out to one of the really good modern books, The Ballad of Black Tom.
Picked this up from Audible and both my wife and I have greatly enjoyed it so far. This was a good recommendation!
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A lot of very interesting answers but it doesn't really address the question of why is this Cthulhu business sweeping across the hobby? It seems every monster or demon sculpted for almost any type of range has to have tentacles or tentacles dangling from its mouth. Additionally, you cant swing a dead cat without hitting a fishfolk or "hybrid". I cant help but think something fishy is going on.
Why is Cthulhu suddenly so persuasive?
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Perhaps because in our current world Cosmic horror qualifies as an escape? His writings much like Burroughs, take an ordinary man and move him past the veil of normal to see and experience things others miss. That doesn't work out well for HPL's protagonists but I think it still resonates with a reader sometimes wanting to be something other than ordinary.
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Why is Cthulhu suddenly so persuasive?
More fun-loving than zombies perhaps?
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A lot of very interesting answers but it doesn't really address the question of why is this Cthulhu business sweeping across the hobby? It seems every monster or demon sculpted for almost any type of range has to have tentacles or tentacles dangling from its mouth. Additionally, you cant swing a dead cat without hitting a fishfolk or "hybrid". I cant help but think something fishy is going on.
Why is Cthulhu suddenly so persuasive?
The Stars Are Right at the moment. 8)
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Don't under estimate the role of TV and the fact that most of his work has been public domian for a while now (2008)
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and the fact that most of his work has been public domian for a while now (2008)
And that's the center square on everybody's bingo card!
Plus, yeah, the stars are in the right alignment...
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If you havent seen it Lovecraft Crountry is worth a look, not really Lovercraft but good
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Hi all,
Despite being an avid horror reader in my teens I discovered Cthulhu through the first edition of call of Cthulhu and Stephen King .
I believe the support he has received from Stephen King was very important to his modern resurgence. In his book Dance Macabre (1981) he wrote “I think it is beyond doubt that H. P. Lovecraft has yet to be surpassed as the twentieth century’s greatest practitioner of the classic horror tale”
I think that Stephen King championing Lovecraft encouraged other in the media to experiment with his vision, this is of course neglecting all the writers that had already in part shared Lovecraft’s bleak vison of the universe. From my perspective post Dance Macabre I am thinking of Brian Yuzna (From Beyond, Reanimator), Grant Morrison and artist Steve Yeowell Zenith from 2000AD comic (1987), Chris Claremont in the XMen (isue 150 springs to mind) and of course Manga. Call of Cthulhu RPG (1981)
Lovecraft himself come up with some great quotes and world view that resonate with a modern society. For instance:-
“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown”
And
“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age.”
Anyway just my thoughts
A