Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: EssarD on August 28, 2020, 07:46:19 AM
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I haven't played 40k since 3rd edition, but I saw the new starter boxes and sweet new models and thought I might jump back in. Now I'm reconsidering. I decided to watch a few 9th edition battle reports on YouTube to get a feel for it, but it seemed to me to just be two players throwing big handfuls of dice on the table, rerolling 1s, and then some more dice rolling.
Worse still, I realised 40k still has the old IGOUGO turn sequence, where players get to move/fire with all their units before their opponent does the same. So in the battle reports I watched, even in the first turn one player is just standing there removing models while his opponent is throwing buckets of dice on the tabletop. Obviously this holds appeal for a lot of people, but for me it was a real turn off, and I'm now thinking I might just use the models for another game.
Anyway, I just wondered if anyone who has played 9th edition could chime in and tell me if it's actually a good game and I just got the wrong impression from the videos?
Also, I haven't been able to find any actual reviews of 9th edition that aren't written by 40k superfans or that even compare it to other wargames. It's all just comparisons to the previous edition.
Thanks for your help!
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I am sorry to say that in my (limited) experience you are indeed right.
I tend to play solo nowadays so the standing about bit doesn't really apply to me but with a live opponent definitely so.
Many, many special rules for quite a few units etc.
I am thinking of either adding Primaris to third or modding thirds space marine stats to run true-scale marines as they always should have been :o lol :o
Oh and fist full of lead bigger battles of course.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
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The rules are not the best, but one thing ninth edition, and eighth edition before that, brings is the use of stratagems. Check that out online to get an idea. It’s basically special abilities that are powered by command points, which are determined by the size of the game.
It’s fun, but really one gets into 40K not so much for the actual mechanics of the game, but for the whole experience. What I mean is the lore, the models, the various factions with deep backstory, the every evolving timeline. I love the game, but I play for fun and to tell the tale more than a fulfilling balanced tactical endeavor.
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Try out one page rules, if you want to play 40k. They use the same models but their rules are much more elegant.
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I have no real dog in this fight as I don't play WH40k, but if the game was bad and you just wanted to use the figures, why not use a different rule set that would make the story enjoyable?
I haven't played WH40k since the old Rogue Trader book back in the early 90's. I can't even be sure that we played it right then because it was complex to the extreme (and teenage boys don't have the best attention span). I like the lore, and have spent more money on the various books and novels than I care to admit. I really do like the lore. However, when it comes to turning the experience into something enjoyable at the tabletop level, I don't see it.
I'd vote for one of the many dozen other good rule sets that exist. If you are a looking for some rules, I would suggest something like Nordic Weasel's Renegade Scout, or Squad Hammer by the same. One Page Rules also look good but I've never played a game with them.
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Some of our group seem to be enjoying it - I think because of some rebalancing between forces that makes it a game rather than a slaughter (I think IG vs Dark Eldar, or whatever they are called these days). But they are long term 40k fans and players, and very much into the whole mythos.
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8th edition fixed many, many problems that had crept in since 2nd. 9th took a step backwards and added some of those problems back in. It is, however, the Gold Standard of pickup games and meeting people. So it is important to know the rules and have a current army.
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I have no real dog in this fight as I don't play WH40k, but if the game was bad and you just wanted to use the figures, why not use a different rule set that would make the story enjoyable?
I haven't played WH40k since the old Rogue Trader book back in the early 90's. I can't even be sure that we played it right then because it was complex to the extreme (and teenage boys don't have the best attention span). I like the lore, and have spent more money on the various books and novels than I care to admit. I really do like the lore. However, when it comes to turning the experience into something enjoyable at the tabletop level, I don't see it.
I'd vote for one of the many dozen other good rule sets that exist. If you are a looking for some rules, I would suggest something like Nordic Weasel's Renegade Scout, or Squad Hammer by the same. One Page Rules also look good but I've never played a game with them.
Basically what punkrabbit posted. It's a game you can play almost anywhere, with a shared background and history. It's quite good in those regards. The rules aren't the best, but they are a fine enough vehicle to drive the on board narrative.
40K has, though, been co-opted by the tournament types. The people that make money on hosting tournaments, like Front Line Gaming, have a huge impact on rules development. You can see this evident in the new "matched play" scenarios in 9th edition. Not really my thing, I've played in a tournament, but current 40K is very influenced by the tournament competitive scene.
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Basically what punkrabbit posted. It's a game you can play almost anywhere, with a shared background and history.
That is not a reason to play a substandard game.
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Would you kindly keep this focused on actual rules/gameplay discussion. If it veers further into GW policy and/or a general "The GW Hobby" direction, I'll fold this thread into the GW Discussion thread.
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I haven't played 40k since 3rd edition, but I saw the new starter boxes and sweet new models and thought I might jump back in. Now I'm reconsidering. I decided to watch a few 9th edition battle reports on YouTube to get a feel for it, but it seemed to me to just be two players throwing big handfuls of dice on the table, rerolling 1s, and then some more dice rolling.
If you like the models then grab them and use them with some other rules. One Page Rules have a free skirmish and large-scale set of rules for 40K models.
8th Edition was fine. The core rules, the scenario cards and the scenario additions were fun. 9th has tweaked the rules a bit based on some of the issues with 8th. The core problem with the Rules (both 8th and 9th) is that everything has a set of special rules. Even terrain. It is crazy. So many interactions to remember.
It is also still the same IGUGO, bucket of dice system. No real excuse for it in this day and age.
For a while I was tempted to get one of the smaller starters so I could build the models to use in Galactic Heroes but I already have enough models for that :-)
Unless you have some local people to game with who only want to play 40K I would avoid the actual game.
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That is not a reason to play a substandard game.
Sure it is, but to each their own.
Back on topic, one of the bigger changes to 9th was giving terrain different traits, so adding bonuses to saving throw, deductions to hit, LOS blocking, etc. In 8th terrain was only important really if it totally blocked line of sight. We'll see how this translates on the table.
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Perhaps off topic but I really enjoyed Gates of Antares by Warlord, I think that the game is basically discontinued but I quite liked the rules, (basically bolt action with d10s) and it was a slightly smaller scale game than 40k, say only one tank an 30 models per side.
I have seen people on facebook groups using the rules to play 40k though I dont know if they wrote army lists themselves or if there is an fan made set of lists but it could be worth a shot to try out.
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Perhaps off topic but I really enjoyed Gates of Antares by Warlord, I think that the game is basically discontinued but I quite liked the rules, (basically bolt action with d10s) and it was a slightly smaller scale game than 40k, say only one tank an 30 models per side.
Warlord was working on a new version but the pandemic put that on hold. The current version is still available.
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If you like the models then grab them and use them with some other rules. One Page Rules have a free skirmish and large-scale set of rules for 40K models.
8th Edition was fine. The core rules, the scenario cards and the scenario additions were fun. 9th has tweaked the rules a bit based on some of the issues with 8th. The core problem with the Rules (both 8th and 9th) is that everything has a set of special rules. Even terrain. It is crazy. So many interactions to remember.
It is also still the same IGUGO, bucket of dice system. No real excuse for it in this day and age.
For a while I was tempted to get one of the smaller starters so I could build the models to use in Galactic Heroes but I already have enough models for that :-)
Unless you have some local people to game with who only want to play 40K I would avoid the actual game.
I think I'll play through the beginner scenarios in the Command starter box and see how it goes. But at this point I will probably just use the models in another game, as you and others have suggested. In fact, I just saw that Stargrave - the sci-fi version of Frostgrave - is coming out next year, and that family of games is always simple and adaptable enough to port over to other settings.
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Warlord was working on a new version but the pandemic put that on hold. The current version is still available.
Coincidently as 9th ed was being Launched, Warlord started doing a few articles of how to get into GoA, presumably trying to mop up 40k players who finally had enough of yet another edition and new army books etc being launched. So you could have a read of that and see if it sounds like your sort of game and I'm sure there must be a fair number of youtube games to assess GoA.
Mantic I've no idea about how there game plays but again there should be some youtube vids around to help.
Problem seems to be one of choice in finding a platoon to company level or reinforced platoon sized science fiction wargame in the 25mm or bigger scale.
There's some who have made attempts to convert WW2 games for 40K:
https://adventuresinscifi.blogspot.com/2019/12/40k-variant-for-chain-of-command.html
Assuming your really want to stay with 40K however:
One of the reasons there may seem to have been more dice rolling is as I understand it burst templates have been replaced with that. I've not seen or played the newer editions but other than army being larger can't see there would be masses more dice rolling than you had in 3rd. I've also not seen the vid you mentioned.
As concerns the IGOUGO there is a pretty reasonable attempt to adapt to a bolt action activation for 8th, 9th being close enough it should work.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/741174.page
As another option pick an older edition of 40k to play with your gaming group, if you liked 3rd then 5th is generally considered the best as it was wiith the same designers by and large. 6th and 7th had new team and it kinda floundered with those until 8th and a new direction.
There's a lot of love on the internet for 2nd ed and a few fb groups with files and a squat codex for instance and an activation system based off bolt action. So there has been some development on the game over the last 30 years.
Rules wise with any current edition with 40k is also the fact there will be updates and nerfing you'll need to keep up with.
Hope it helps with your choice, I think its a pretty reasonable move to play out the starter missions and see how it feels.
Happy Gaming.
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8th edition fixed many, many problems that had crept in since 2nd. 9th took a step backwards and added some of those problems back in. It is, however, the Gold Standard of pickup games and meeting people. So it is important to know the rules and have a current army.
Strongly disagree. For a few editions it had become shoothammer. Any combat orientated army was onto a serious loser.
Having played games of both, 9th is far superior. Far more narrative, far less focus on just trying to obliterate each other with more focus on objectives and tactics.
Re the new terrain rules - step in the right direction. For example, you can see into ruins, but not past them. The main issue is that they give you a cover save, a bonus to your saving throw. However, that's not massively useful when a lot of weapons carry an AP. So you typically lose that bonus pretty quickly. Personally I would have switched it to a shoot modifier.
However generally, the terrain rules are more 2nd edition in terms of being area effect rather than line of sight.