Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Silent Invader on September 11, 2020, 08:02:13 AM
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This thread originally opened with me looking for suitable figure ranges for RAF Regiment in the late 1970s with suggestions sought.
Please note that suggestions for mini ranges are now no longer needed.
I’ve now settled on a conversion project using the Eureka Aden minis as a base, hoping to finish up with a section of Gunners that is original/distinctive. Any suggestions on uniform, kit, procedures, structure, section transport, etc are all still gratefully appreciated.
Thanks all for the great help so far
13/9/20
Original Post for ‘the record’:
Looking for suitable figure ranges, preferably 28mm but 20mm considered, for RAF Regiment in late 1970s. Any suggestions? Ta
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Empress Miniatures in just over a week.
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Ooooh, this should be interesting! ;)
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Looking for suitable figure ranges, preferably 28mm but 20mm considered, for RAF Regiment in late 1970s. Any suggestions? Ta
Do you have any pictures of the uniforms/equipment you're looking to represent?
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Do you have any pictures of the uniforms/equipment you're looking to represent?
Hmmm, I’m struggling to find images of what I’m looking for. Most of what has come up online is parade ground, off duty or outside the period (WW2 or more recent Middle East) or if the right time is the wrong theatre (Falklands). Unfortunately my memory from 40 years ago is not quite as sharp as I’d like it to be.
I’m really thinking about airfield perimeter patrols, protection of Harrier forward operating bases, etc. Theatre-wise, either NWE or possibly even Cyprus.
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(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0253/9533/1120/products/100MOD401_1024x1024.jpg?v=1565964390)
Found those but I think that's an SA80 so probably too late?
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It’d be SLR rather than a ‘modern’ bull pup.
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Have you looked at Eureka Miniatures? They may have something suitable.
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I’d wait for the Empress chaps if you want temperate uniforms but there’s always the Crooked Dice infantry, if you don’t mind filing back gaiters or just want something near enough.
If you want Rock Apes for warmer climes then the Eureka Aden Brits are your best bet.
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I’d wait for the Empress chaps if you want temperate uniforms but there’s always the Crooked Dice infantry, if you don’t mind filing back gaiters or just want something near enough.
If you want Rock Apes for warmer climes then the Eureka Aden Brits are your best bet.
Thanks Nick and Carlos.
TBH I’m not keen on Empress Miniatures so I don’t expect to be buying from them (it’s why I recently sold off my Nam project).
I like the look of the Eureka Aden minis and I think could work with them but am not sure about the webbing arrangement. Does anyone have images from the rear (I’ve looked at both the Aussie and UK websites but can’t see anything useful). I’m contemplating the degree of conversion that might be required.
Ta. :)
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I’ll take a pic in the morning if you like. It’s belt order no harness, no kidney pouches, just basic pouches and one or two waterbottles.
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I’ll take a pic in the morning if you like. It’s belt order no harness, no kidney pouches, just basic pouches and one or two waterbottles.
That’s sounds workable and the image would be appreciated thanks.
If the existing belt order is in the right place it shouldn’t be too difficult to add the harness, kidney pouches (or 3 waterbottle pouches), perhaps a resp case and maybe a couple of bum rolls.
8)
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Found a rear-view photo of the Eureka Aden minis:
https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/28mm-aden-emergency/
Nice details. The webbing is 44 but as it’s just belt order it wouldn’t take much reworking to 58 (and the 44 waterbottle carrier was quite popular as an extra).
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Those are nice figures, they look well proportioned and the weapons aren't chunky.
Do you know who sculpted them?
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Fairly sure they were by Alan Marsh
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Nope. Sculpted by Kosta Heristanidis who does all the modern stuff for Eureka.
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(and the 44 waterbottle carrier was quite popular as an extra).
Did it mean they could carry the whole bunch and not just individual bananas? ;) :D
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Nope. Sculpted by Kosta Heristanidis who does all the modern stuff for Eureka.
Well he's done a great job on them.
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Did it mean they could carry the whole bunch and not just individual bananas? ;) :D
Given that the rock apes gained their sobriquet in Aden, albeit a few years earlier than the period of the figures, using those figures is wonderfully apposite. :)
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Hello mate, I'm currently serving as a SNCO in the RAF Regiment, have been since the mid 80's (just a reservist for the last couple of years) What exact information are you after? if I don't know, I'll know a man who does. Just been looking through the RAF Regt Pictures Facebook group for late 70's stuff. It's as I expected, exactly the same kit as when I joined up, DMS boots, puttees, green hairy shirts, 68 pattern DPM jackets and trousers with the occasional windproof. 58 webbing, more kidney pouches than lots of water bottle pouches. SLR and GPMG, hardly any SMG or LMG. If it's NW Europe, mainly Mk2 NBC suits. Any late 70s or early 80s British figures will do, the Gripping Beast Falklands ones are probably the best at the moment, they may well be marketed as Falklands but it was just standard kit at the time.
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Nope. Sculpted by Kosta Heristanidis who does all the modern stuff for Eureka.
He's definitely one of my favourite sculptors. I'm really excited to see the forthcoming interwar militia Eureka crowdfunded some months back.
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He's definitely one of my favourite sculptors. I'm really excited to see the forthcoming interwar militia Eureka crowdfunded some months back.
I didn’t know about them - sounds interesting
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Hello mate, I'm currently serving as a SNCO in the RAF Regiment, have been since the mid 80's (just a reservist for the last couple of years) What exact information are you after? if I don't know, I'll know a man who does. Just been looking through the RAF Regt Pictures Facebook group for late 70's stuff. It's as I expected, exactly the same kit as when I joined up, DMS boots, puttees, green hairy shirts, 68 pattern DPM jackets and trousers with the occasional windproof. 58 webbing, more kidney pouches than lots of water bottle pouches. SLR and GPMG, hardly any SMG or LMG. If it's NW Europe, mainly Mk2 NBC suits. Any late 70s or early 80s British figures will do, the Gripping Beast Falklands ones are probably the best at the moment, they may well be marketed as Falklands but it was just standard kit at the time.
That’s great Rick, thank you very much. I’m aiming for 1978-1982 UK &/or NWE and so you pretty much cover it - the detail about kidney pouches versus multiple water bottle pouches is very useful. I really like the proportions of the Eureka Aden figures and as I’m a glutton for punishment I’m going to sculpt the changes. A couple of details I’m pondering, some of which you might have noticed in the photos you looked at:
Did the 44 water bottle carrier get added much?
Did they use the booney-style DPM crap hat or was it the peaked one?
Also, when you joined was section structure same as for Army Infantry with 8/10 men split into rifle group and three man gun group?
I haven’t decided yet whether my patrol will wear berets or not (so it’s clear who are they are).
One thing that has surprised me, is how difficult it has been to find images of them on patrol.
:)
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No problem, I'll help as much as I can. From the photos, what I can mainly work out from the late 70s, normal 58 water bottle pouches were much more common than 44 pattern. This would depend on wether the individual had done tours of Salalah etc earlier in his career. But multiple 58 water bottle pouches rather than kidney pouches was more of an 80s thing. It was definitely issued DPM peaked caps rather than jungle hats, I've seen loads of photos with the whole section wearing them, they only stopped being worn when the Kevlar helmet became standard wear in the late 80s. They've even started to reissue them in MTP, but nobody wears them as jungle hats are much more popular. There was an officer recruiting brochure made in 1979 that is exactly what you're after. It follows a young Flight commander from 1 Sqn RAF Regt on a typical Harrier exercise in Germany. Lots of pictures from just before we got CVRT. I might still have it, but from memory they're just like I've described. I'll have a look at the Sqn history books for 79, they're photos of reserves but regulars wouldn't be much different, the cult of buying lots of kit didn't come in til the mid to late 80s.
We were still doing separate rifle and gun groups when I joined up.
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As noted, really the same as the Army - for full on WW3 you would need NBC suits. If RickF joined in the mid 80s he probably still hasnt got all the Fuller's earth cleared out... Elhiem do 20mm masked BAOR, not sure anyone does unmasked NBC State 2 (suit worn hood down, boots and gloves carried) or State 4 (suit worn hood up, boots and gloves worn). You might have been more likely to see 2 on exercise and 4 'for real' as the bloody overboots were lethal on wet surfaces and would rip apart using up your (life-ex) training issue kit.
https://www.elhiem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_817076-NATO-British-BAOR.html
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If you are after "Central Europe" figures you could always check our the Gripping Beast "Falklands British" in their MOFO range. They are listed under "Other" on their website. These are basically late '70s/early '80s British squaddies armed with SLRs and Sterling SMGs. Their RM Commandos are I presuem just the same figures with berets who could also be useful.
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No problem, I'll help as much as I can. From the photos, what I can mainly work out from the late 70s, normal 58 water bottle pouches were much more common than 44 pattern. This would depend on wether the individual had done tours of Salalah etc earlier in his career. But multiple 58 water bottle pouches rather than kidney pouches was more of an 80s thing. It was definitely issued DPM peaked caps rather than jungle hats, I've seen loads of photos with the whole section wearing them, they only stopped being worn when the Kevlar helmet became standard wear in the late 80s. They've even started to reissue them in MTP, but nobody wears them as jungle hats are much more popular. There was an officer recruiting brochure made in 1979 that is exactly what you're after. It follows a young Flight commander from 1 Sqn RAF Regt on a typical Harrier exercise in Germany. Lots of pictures from just before we got CVRT. I might still have it, but from memory they're just like I've described. I'll have a look at the Sqn history books for 79, they're photos of reserves but regulars wouldn't be much different, the cult of buying lots of kit didn't come in til the mid to late 80s.
We were still doing separate rifle and gun groups when I joined up.
Thanks again Rick, that’s all excellent stuff. Am glad I asked about the hats! And thanks for confirming re rifle/gun groups. Very, very useful. 8)
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As noted, really the same as the Army - for full on WW3 you would need NBC suits. If RickF joined in the mid 80s he probably still hasnt got all the Fuller's earth cleared out... Elhiem do 20mm masked BAOR, not sure anyone does unmasked NBC State 2 (suit worn hood down, boots and gloves carried) or State 4 (suit worn hood up, boots and gloves worn). You might have been more likely to see 2 on exercise and 4 'for real' as the bloody overboots were lethal on wet surfaces and would rip apart using up your (life-ex) training issue kit.
https://www.elhiem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_817076-NATO-British-BAOR.html
Thanks very much, very interesting. As far as gaming goes, I’m not doing full on WW3 so am happy to go without Noddy Suits. To be honest I’m not yet sure what sort of gaming I’m going to do with them but I just want some. :)
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If you are after "Central Europe" figures you could always check our the Gripping Beast "Falklands British" in their MOFO range. They are listed under "Other" on their website. These are basically late '70s/early '80s British squaddies armed with SLRs and Sterling SMGs. Their RM Commandos are I presuem just the same figures with berets who could also be useful.
Thanks very much. :)
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Rick, funny you mention the 'kit-buying cult'. I think it was just starting when I went through IOT in the late 80s (wearing all the same kit, btw - no kevlar, L85, Gore-tex waterproofs, DPM NBC suits or hi-legs for us! :) ); everyone HAD to go out and buy gore-tex boot liners, waterproof notebooks and bungees...
It's occurred to me that I never, ever saw a Rock wearing DPM trousers; always OG Lightweights. :D
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Not exactly what you are looking for Steve, but you might find it of vague period interest:
https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/31741
I remember seeing this at an air cadet in the late 70s. I ended up at Bruggen around 10 years later...Tacevals & all... ::)
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Rick, funny you mention the 'kit-buying cult'. I think it was just starting when I went through IOT in the late 80s (wearing all the same kit, btw - no kevlar, L85, Gore-tex waterproofs, DPM NBC suits or hi-legs for us! :) ); everyone HAD to go out and buy gore-tex boot liners, waterproof notebooks and bungees...
It's occurred to me that I never, ever saw a Rock wearing DPM trousers; always OG Lightweights. :D
It's a Cat Walk out there! lol
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Not exactly what you are looking for Steve, but you might find it of vague period interest:
https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/31741
I remember seeing this at an air cadet in the late 70s. I ended up at Bruggen around 10 years later...Tacevals & all... ::)
That was enjoyable :D
It has a nice shot of RAF Police in the peaked crap hat; I kind of recall that cap being around in about 1978 though I’ve no idea when it was introduced. I don’t recall the cap badge being worn on it though (maybe it was a police thing).
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There was an officer recruiting brochure made in 1979 that is exactly what you're after. It follows a young Flight commander from 1 Sqn RAF Regt on a typical Harrier exercise in Germany.
I did manage to find this admittedly poor copy of an RAF Officer advert (from a glossy Sunday Supplement I think) :)
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SD hat with DPM... Nice... :D
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That was enjoyable :D
It has a nice shot of RAF Police in the peaked crap hat; I kind of recall that cap being around in about 1978 though I’ve no idea when it was introduced. I don’t recall the cap badge being worn on it though (maybe it was a police thing).
I've never seen anyone wear a badge on one before. Bloody Snowdrops... ::) They had just gone obsolete when I joined up in 1989, but the stores were giving away surplus stock, so we all got one on permanent issue, but couldn't wear it. Was still wearing mine for walking the hills until last year, when a mate gave me the new MTP version.
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SD hat with DPM... Nice... :D
It's certainly not an act of war, I used to love watching people on gate guard wearing DPM with blue shirts and gloves.
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It's certainly not an act of war, I used to love watching people on gate guard wearing DPM with blue shirts and gloves.
The beret's not much better on the officer next to him! lol People persisting with the issued officers' beret badge (solid metal on horrible hessian backing) used to grind my gears. A nice embroidered gold wire one only cost about £2 from the station tailor and would 'shabby up' with style as the beret faded...
Anyway, this has got me interested now and I'm feeling the urge to paint some... Did Rocks wear blue rank-slides in the field during the 80s? My dealings were only really with IOT SNCOs, IOT RTS and Stn GDT Section Rocks, not the Field Sqns and I don't remember ever seeing them wear subdued rank slides back in the 80s, just the standard gun-metal-on-blue slides (and LACs and SACs didn't wear theirs at all). I know Rock officers just wore standard black/sky rank-rings. Also, did you ever wear mudguards on DPM or the RAF 'flash'? I can only ever recall seeing para wings on DPM.
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I've never seen RAF Regt NCOs wear blue rank slides on greens, we used to get issued plain OG slides with RAF Regiment on from the early 80s. When you were promoted to Cpl you either bought a new set of OG ones with chevrons on or got the black permi pen out. If we were ever in 2 dress (which is probably what you saw at Cranwell, I did the same as an IOT instructor) we'd have plain blue slides with RAF Regiment on, then put the issue RAF ones over the top or buy our own. Maybe it was a Cranwell thing to wear blue slides with greens, but I very much doubt any RAF Regt NCO would ever have done it after the very early 80s, I've seen photos of blue slides on a few regiment NCOs in the 70s, but these would have been as rare as hens teeth later and as I say I've never seen it.
Nobody wore mudguards on DPM until the RAF Regiment slides were dropped in favour of green mudguards in 2002. Field Sqns have always worn green Sqn badges on DPM, non-formed units GDT/IOT etc wore the RAF flash after the introduction of CS95
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I've never seen RAF Regt NCOs wear blue rank slides on greens, we used to get issued plain OG slides with RAF Regiment on from the early 80s. When you were promoted to Cpl you either bought a new set of OG ones with chevrons on or got the black permi pen out. If we were ever in 2 dress (which is probably what you saw at Cranwell, I did the same as an IOT instructor) we'd have plain blue slides with RAF Regiment on, then put the issue RAF ones over the top or buy our own. Maybe it was a Cranwell thing to wear blue slides with greens, but I very much doubt any RAF Regt NCO would ever have done it after the very early 80s, I've seen photos of blue slides on a few regiment NCOs in the 70s, but these would have been as rare as hens teeth later and as I say I've never seen it.
Nobody wore mudguards on DPM until the RAF Regiment slides were dropped in favour of green mudguards in 2002. Field Sqns have always worn green Sqn badges on DPM, non-formed units GDT/IOT etc wore the RAF flash after the introduction of CS95
Cheers Rick! They were undoubtedly dressed exactly as you describe, but the intervening 30 years has fogged the memory (122 IOT - it was a very long time ago... :( ). Now you mention it, I do remember the RAF REGIMENT titled slides and I remember the blank slides with RAF REGIMENT in black (lightbulb moment... I blame all the apfelkorn...). Cheers for the confirmation re mudguards. I know they've been worn in post-S95 years, but couldn't for the life of me remember if they were worn before that.
Re the flash - a Rock mate of mine had one on one of his smocks circa 1991, hence the question and it's the only one I'd ever seen prior to the introduction of TRFs in the 2000s. It was bigger than a TRF and he referred to it as a 'DZ Flash'. On Googling it seems that it was worn by RAF people on joint units.
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Your right, the larger badges worn on combat jackets were known as DZ badges, the only time I've seen regiment people wearing the RAF one, before CS95 came in, was on blokes attached to non RAF airborne units.
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Your right, the larger badges worn on combat jackets were known as DZ badges, the only time I've seen regiment people wearing the RAF one, before CS95 came in, was on blokes attached to non RAF airborne units.
That explains it. I've now run out of ideas to make them look a bit more RAF REG than British Army and I draw the line at painting RAF REGIMENT on the epaulette slides... lol
BTW have we spoken before on TMP (discussing a mutual RAF Regt friend by the name of Brian M)?
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It’s clear where Ronnie RAAF AKA ‘The Blue Public Service’ and its bastard offspring the Air Defence Guards got their ideas on uniformity. Suede shoes anyone?
IIRC the official motto translates to ‘They also serve, those who only stand and wait’. ;)
I always thought that the peaked combat cap was a much despised item in the British army, soubriquets such as DILAC hat, Cap C**t etc being applied to it. Funny that the crabs would find it a desirable item of wear.
It may have contributed to a short lived, local, fashion, popular with members of the RAAC, which was a floppy kepi type cap, complete with havelock. It gave the wearer the appearance that their mother had just dressed them for their first day in kindergarten or special education. It’s funny how fashion at times can so accurately reflect its wearer.
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It’s clear where Ronnie RAAF AKA ‘The Blue Public Service’ and its bastard offspring the Air Defence Guards got their ideas on uniformity. Suede shoes anyone?
IIRC the official motto translates to ‘They also serve, those who only stand and wait’. ;)
I always thought that the peaked combat cap was a much despised item in the British army, soubriquets such as DILAC hat, Cap C**t etc being applied to it. Funny that the crabs would find it a desirable item of wear.
It may have contributed to a short lived, local, fashion, popular with members of the RAAC, which was a floppy kepi type cap, complete with havelock. It gave the wearer the appearance that their mother had just dressed them for their first day in kindergarten or special education. It’s funny how fashion at times can so accurately reflect its wearer.
My DPM crap-hat was certainly much-despised by everyone who saw me wearing it (the peak lost any stiffness it had about 20 years ago), hence my mate giving me his (unwanted) MTP crap-hat out of desperation... lol As for my SD Cap - I'd spent 25 years getting it to the perfect shape, colour and patination when my cadets burned it. :'(
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Thanks for all the posts on the uniform and kit details, they’re very, very helpful. 8)
I’m not looking for figure recommendations anymore as I’ve decided that this will be a conversion project, hopefully resulting in some distinctive minis. I’ve purchased the Eureka Aden minis for the starting point and will probably cast or press mould the 58 webbing parts, crap hats, etc.
I’ve another similar project on the go, for WW2 glider pilots and Airlanding Infantry, which gives an idea of my approach (see photo). :)
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I'm really looking forward to seeing these completed, have fun.
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Cheers Rick.
A question if I may. :D
Were there any instances of Gunners wearing the issue ‘Joe 90’ specs?
Image is Falklands - no idea which service or part thereof. 8)
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I honestly couldn't say, but why would anyone ruin they're own glasses on ops or exercise when the service provides them. Even if you look a prat lol
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I honestly couldn't say, but why would anyone ruin they're own glasses on ops or exercise when the service provides them. Even if you look a prat lol
lol lol
TBH I wasn’t sure if Gunners were subject to a tougher eyesight test than the ground trades. I was also kinda surprised the guy in the image is wearing the Joe 90s rather than the issue combat specs (flexible ear loops on the silver metal frames etc / thinking aloud, maybe the Falklands was too cold for the metal frames).
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lol lol
TBH I wasn’t sure if Gunners were subject to a tougher eyesight test than the ground trades. I was also kinda surprised the guy in the image is wearing the Joe 90s rather than the issue combat specs (flexible ear loops on the silver metal frames etc / thinking aloud, maybe the Falklands was too cold for the metal frames).
Were there issued combat specs back then? I thought they were a 2000s thing after soldiers went out to buy their own. The RAF offered me the standard NHS specs as modelled above, but I went and got my own (which I regretted as the SLR backsight kept knocking the lens out)! 8) IOT was a bugger though, as they wouldn't put prescription lenses in your respirator until after graduation! I understand that's all changed now and recruits get prescription lenses in their respirators at the start of training. Definitely a good thing, as I spent much of my time as Officer Cadet Magoo... o_o
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I was issued Joe 90s, combat specs and resi specs, all at about the same time, in early 1982. I still have the combat specs but I sold the resi specs to a Cold War collector (that made me feel old!) a couple of years ago.
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I was issued Joe 90s, combat specs and resi specs, all at about the same time, in early 1982. I still have the combat specs but I sold the resi specs to a Cold War collector (that made me feel old!) a couple of years ago.
Oh that's interesting, I'd not heard of those. I did have a pair of issued prescription aircrew shades from my time as a cadet glider pilot, however. 8)
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I definitely never received shades 8) lol
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I definitely never received shades 8) lol
For a very brief moment, aged 18, I was Maverick... 8) But then they wouldn't let me fly anything with an engine and with my eyesight they thought that being underground was probably a better use of my skillset... :'(
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For a very brief moment, aged 18, I was Maverick... 8) But then they wouldn't let me fly anything with an engine and with my eyesight they thought that being underground was probably a better use of my skillset... :'(
lol
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Quick update.
The Eureka minis arrived, which are lovely. Also purchased a TAG SLR to see how it compared and it looks like it could be fine after a bit of adjusting for the size of its butt. I have 7 riflemen of which 3 are repeats and as I want each to be different, some conversions are planned.
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Empress Miniatures in just over a week.
Got any preview pictures..?
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Got any preview pictures..?
Not on this thread please
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Not on this thread please
I wasn't suggesting or expecting them to post their pictures in your thread, a link would be good though.
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I wasn't suggesting or expecting them to post their pictures in your thread, a link would be good though.
I was just clarifying to be sure, as I want this thread to stay focussed on my project, that is all.
Here’s a link
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=127176.0 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=127176.0)
and they’re very nice (the mortar team brings back memories).
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Fair enough. Seen their new releases now, anything there that might work for your RAF Reg. ?