Lead Adventure Forum
Other Stuff => Workbench => Topic started by: David H on September 16, 2020, 04:07:01 PM
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If this topic has been covered previously I have been unable to find it, so any advice greatly appreciated.
I have, at long last, nearly completed my wargaming shed and now have 24 TSS 2'x2' scenic boards I want to 'improve'.
The forums have been very useful for information on covering the boards. Following the advice of Captain Blood, etc I have gone down the 'gloop' route although for my first attempt I found it was easier to cover the board with a mix of paint and glue and then sprinkle sand on top rather than adding sand to the mix. If anyone can advise mix quantities I would be grateful as I get too much or too little sand and it just does not look good.
However, I am happy with my result so far - see attached photo.
The next stage, once the drybrushing is completed, is the flocking, and I have not found much information on how to actually do this on a large terrain board.
The look I am going for is Mediterranean - fairly arid, usable for the Peninsular War, Italy, and possibly North Africa. I have all the gear to apply static grass but am not keen on it as a surface for gaming on. What do you advise?
Finally, how on earth to do you apply flock in large quantities? I have seen reference to spraying PVA, but have tried that before and most of the flock ended up being blasted across the board by the spray, and then the spray bottle clogged.
If I lay down glue first I suspect the flock will go on rather heavy and I want the painted surface to show through the flock.
So, any and all advice welcome.
David
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You might consider doing the surface one square foot at a time.
Paint on (slightly thinned) PVA, where you want the vegetation,
then (after laying down some newspaper) tip the flock on & pat it down.
Leave it for 15 to 20 minutes, then tip the surplus onto the newspaper.
Recycle it for the next section. When it is totally dry seal it with either
a spray varnish, or a thinned PVA glue.
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Just to confirm you are talking flock NOT static grass?
Would also recommend that you 'mix' your flock as you go - that way it is not all the same colour - you only need a slight variation to give a good effect.
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has.been I guess I'm looking for a thin layer of vegetation over the entire board so your suggestion might work. The trick is probably not putting too much flock on to start?
Eric, yes I did mean flock rather than static grass. Flattened static grass always looks a bit odd to me, but I'm open to converting if anyone has examples of how to do it convincingly.
It may be a dumb question coz it seemed so simple until I started thinking about it: just flock the board, easy huh? Actually no, theres a lot of area to cover and I have not done anything like this before!
Thanks for the advice so far.
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If I lay down glue first I suspect the flock will go on rather heavy and I want the painted surface to show through the flock.
The amount of flock on your terrain will depend on the amount of glue you use.
In this case, if you only want a very little amount of flock to stick then I would recommend that you heavily water down your PVA. Brush on the glue and make sure it doesn't pool unless you want it to. Now lightly sprinkle on the flock, and I mean lightly; like you are adding herbs to food by placing the herbs between your fore finger and thumb and then rubbing so that only a small amount drops.
As a side note, if you hit this terrain with another coat of PVA you are going to have a lot more warping of the bases, especially long thin pieces.
My go to guy on terrain is called TheTerrainTutor on YouTube. He has a really good discussion about how to counter base warping here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEhb0uGTt8
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Ray, how well will the flock stick if the PVA is heavily watered down? Will it need another coat over the top after it dries?
No had a problem with warping yet - I coated the small pieces with PVA on both sides prior to applying sand etc. If they look a bot warped in the photo its coz the board surface is not flat.
Im not too concerned about the board warping - its 40mm thick so should withstand more PVA.
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TSS boards are foam not MDF so warping shouldn't be an issue.
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Ray, how well will the flock stick if the PVA is heavily watered down? Will it need another coat over the top after it dries?
I would finish with a varnish but you could do another PVA layer after. Brush the surface first though, to get rid of the excess and see what you have actually sticking to the board. Might need a couple passes depending on how much flock you want.
It is the sprinkling I think will give you the effect you want. You're not going to need a lot of glue for that. The thinner the amount of flock the thinner the amount of glue.
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Here is a great video with a number of flocking techniques:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r79HuWyU0ic
It shows how you can control the amount of flock on the base by sprinkling and brushing.
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For my desert boards, I roughly, sparsely stippled neat PVA onto a few areas, then added flock. Once stuck and dry I shook off the surplus and then gave the whole thing a drenching in VERY watered down PVA (like 1 part PVA to 20 parts water). That highly dilute mixture is enough to help fix the flock in position, but not so much that it dries with any shine, which is the last thing you want on your terrain boards. As far as I can tell, the very expensive Woodland Scenics 'scenic cement' is simply watered down PVA - it certainly behaves in exactly the same way. Water down a teaspoonful of your own PVA in a small bottle - cost, about 0.001 pence. Or buy a bottle of Woodland Scenic 'scenic cement' - cost, about a tenner ::)
Where I had created these sparse patches of 'grass', I then added a scattered variety of dry looking tufts on top. It looks quite effective.
(https://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/30/577_07_10_17_2_20_43_3.JPG)
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Thanks for that link Ray - I had not seen that, its very useful.
Captain Blood - nice looking boards. Thats probably more sparse than I am going for, but it I think I am starting to know where I am going. Useful advice on the PVA too.
What sort of flock mixes do you guys use? I mostly have the fine ground foam type stuff, but is the sawdust based flock any good?
I hope to try some test pieces this weekend, but I need to finish off the gaming shed roof first!!
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For my desert boards, I roughly, sparsely stippled neat PVA onto a few areas, then added flock. Once stuck and dry I shook off the surplus and then gave the whole thing a drenching in VERY watered down PVA (like 1 part PVA to 20 parts water).
Geez... I was waiting for you to chime in... ;)
It's an interesting subject.
As for flock, TheTerrainTutor recommends Javis. I use Woodland Scenics. You can also make your own, so I don't think it really matters to be quite honest.
Here is a video of the guy making his own flock, turf and scrub scenery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHwWw-WKlK4
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Water down some PVA glue, then paint it on. You want it watery. The water beads and pulls into itself while the glue stays put.
It works well for doing the patchy grass style without a lost of meticulous work.
Give it a few after painting it on. The water dries up pretty quickly, the glue takes longer.
Flocking onto it without giving it time also works, and you'll find that the flock coverage in the watery areas aren't very thick.
That, at least, is how I do thin/sparse areas of grass.
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Ray, I have WS and Javis flock so I'll mix a few colours up for a suitably arid look. I dont think I'll bother making my own, too many more important things to do, and I'm not sure my wife would appreciate me doing that to her blender! ;)
Thanks DS615, some more useful advice - once I try these tips out I'm sure it will be easier than it sounds.
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A tip on flock vs static grass - try mixing the two together.
I have a mix I use on all my terrain boards. Off the top of my head, it's something like a mix of Arcane Scenery 'light green' and 'moorland green', one called 'summer meadow' (Javis I think?), the above three all being traditional flocks.... And a static grass (forget the brand). The mix is something like 4:2:2:1.
Anyway, the static grass adds a nice bit of texture to the flock. Forget about trying to get it to stand upright. Flock+grass mix over a textured and drybrushed ground surface makes for a great texture. Once dry, I hit it with a stiff brush in places to thin the flock and show more of the ground below. And in some places I add a second layer of flock, for a thicker, grassier look. Keeping it varied across the board.
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Great topic with loads of good info!
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Once dry, I hit it with a stiff brush in places to thin the flock and show more of the ground below. And in some places I add a second layer of flock, for a thicker, grassier look. Keeping it varied across the board.
Stole my thunder on that one.
Mixing the colours and materials is always a good idea as it looks more natural. I have also had good results applying Copydex instead of PVA. It seems that the rubber base helps keep the small particles from shifting as I did not need a topcoat of PVA. I have tired it with with sawdust flock, foam flock and static grass. The only thing that I cannot comment on is the longevity. I have only used it for a couple of years so longer than that I can't vouch for.
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Thanks Charlie and Snitcy, more great tips.
I'm just finishing my gaming room roof at the moment and can then start trying a few of these suggestion out - keep them coming.
Thanks everyone.
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Flattened static grass always looks a bit odd to me, but I'm open to converting if anyone has examples of how to do it convincingly.
Have you tried using a static grass applicator? It with the help of this kind of dark sorcery you make the static grass stand up straight. I just built my own in an afternoon from a fly zapper (cost me less than a tenner all in all) which I am experimenting with now.
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Would also recommend that you 'mix' your flock as you go - that way it is not all the same colour - you only need a slight variation to give a good effect.
For an even more natural look, consider where you apply which kind of flock or static grass. Just to mention a few considerations:
- the most obvious consideration is which season or type of climate you try to channel. Even an arid desert landscape changes with seasons.
- cracks and bottom of large rocks retain moisture longer and the grass is greener or a darker green in these places
- create some interesting contrast by applying tall tufts of a drier more yellow colour among a lower, greener vegetation. The opposit is sometimes also suitable, especially in landscapes grazed by cattle and other herbivores
There are heaps of other considerations you can make, your best friend here is reference photos.
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For an even more natural look, consider where you apply which kind of flock or static grass. Just to mention a few considerations:
- the most obvious consideration is which season or type of climate you try to channel. Even an arid desert landscape changes with seasons.
- cracks and bottom of large rocks retain moisture longer and the grass is greener or a darker green in these places
- create some interesting contrast by applying tall tufts of a drier more yellow colour among a lower, greener vegetation. The opposit is sometimes also suitable, especially in landscapes grazed by cattle and other herbivores
There are heaps of other considerations you can make, your best friend here is reference photos.
I will definitely be attempting to do this. Over last weekend I prepped a couple of boards and have been messing around with colours and mixes.
The mix including static grass comes out much better than I expected and will probably become my standard mix.
I have not tried layering colours/textures yet, but that is on the to do list, and will include Hammers advice as above.
I also experimented with applying flock with a sieve (please do not tell my wife) - it creates a very nice fine even layer that seems to be a good starting point.
The other thing I have been experimenting with is PVA mixes. I actually managed to get some small atomiser spray bottles that give a really fine spray, and I used a 70:30 (water/pva) mix for an hour before it clogged. The easiest method I have tried is actually using a 1" brush to sort of stipple, more like a splodge, the pva mix on the board, followed by applying the flock.
I found that the colour of the flock is changed by the pva - it tends to darken it. I had to add brighter coloured flock to the mix to get it back to where I wanted it.
So, lots of lessons being learnt here, and I am grateful for everyone's input.
I hope to get some photos up soon.
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The other thing I have been experimenting with is PVA mixes. I actually managed to get some small atomiser spray bottles that give a really fine spray, and I used a 70:30 (water/pva) mix for an hour before it clogged.
Dunno if this is true or not or even applies to your case, however TheTerrainTutor recommended that when using spray bottles, cut off the "thingme" at the bottom of the plastic tube that goes down into the bottle and a bit more, as he stated that this is the part that clogs.
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I've created a tutorial about how to make your own static grass applicator out of a fly swatter here (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=127185.msg1606434#msg1606434)
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My go to guy on terrain is called TheTerrainTutor on YouTube. He has a really good discussion about how to counter base warping here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEhb0uGTt8
same for me - i followed his guide to make scatter using herbs, added to vegetation bases and still have a tub worth; also followed his steps to make some pieces using cork bark. all of his stuff is worth watching IMHO
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After a few a few trial runs here are some photos of the first board I have started on.
I am pleased with the way the static grass and flock combine to give a more irregular look than just flock - thanks for that advice.
I am really getting hooked on doing this - its great fun once I got over my initial concerns, which is good as I have another 20 or so boards to do yet!
The placing of the flock is very much hit and miss at the moment. It would really pay off to look at photos of the landscape you are trying to create, but I'm just going for a particular look I have in my mind at present and want some very basic generic type boards to start.
If anyone else thinks about tarting up TSS tiles the advice I would give is that the flock they have on them is VERY absorbent and needs properly covering before painting can begin. I am still experimenting with the best way to do this, but a mix of filler and paint spread thinly has had the best result so far.
All comments/advice on the photos welcome.
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Interest and inspiring thread, I'll be following!
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I am really getting hooked on doing this - its great fun once I got over my initial concerns, which is good as I have another 20 or so boards to do yet!
The whole point of a hobby.
If you had fun and like the results... that is all that matters.
The board looks great to me! :-*
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It really looks very realistic, especially in the pic taken from above!
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I'd say they look perfect! The painting has come off really well, what colours did you get use? And is the texture just from filler then?
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I'd say they look perfect! The painting has come off really well, what colours did you get use? And is the texture just from filler then?
Thanks, I'm quite pleased with the first results. I have ordered loads of different flocks and static grass to experiment with and will add photos of these as I try them out. They are still a little too green for me at the moment, so I am hoping that by adding some lighter colours it will give a slightly drier look.
I used the colours recommended by Jeff965 https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=96402.60 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=96402.60) see page 5 for the first 3 colours, on top of a cheap tin of brown paint from B&Q that was used in the gloop mix. Rather than Buff Titanium I used a colour called Toasty from the B&Q Valspar range again, and then finished off with a very light sandy colour tester pot I had lying around (B&Q I think - the brand is GoodHome and the colour is Santiago), and a final selective drybrush of off white to pick up rocks etc. It saved having to mix colours.
The texture is a mix of filler, water, PVA, and sand sprinkled on top. Because these are TSS tiles there is some residual texture from the flock on these boards, but the gloop and sand pretty much deals with this, unless the mix is too watery. I'm still experimenting with this - I have done one board using a thick mix which has caused the board to warp a little. A thick coat of PVA on the underside of the board has straightened it out for the most part.
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Thanks, I'm quite pleased with the first results. I have ordered loads of different flocks and static grass to experiment with and will add photos of these as I try them out. They are still a little too green for me at the moment, so I am hoping that by adding some lighter colours it will give a slightly drier look.
Yes, I think it will look even better with a lighter, dryer grass.
I also wonder if it might benefit from larger patches of grass - less little spots, more a few random larger areas? If that makes sense. Though that's just me. And of course, remember you can always remove flock with a stiff brush if you are worried about putting too much on.
However you choose to do it though it looks fantastic!
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I also wonder if it might benefit from larger patches of grass - less little spots, more a few random larger areas?
I would agree with this. :)
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I also wonder if it might benefit from larger patches of grass - less little spots, more a few random larger areas?
You are probably right - I took a cautious approach and applied it selectively whilst I messed with the colour mix and how to apply it. Once I receive the rest of my flock and grass I'll add more variety and fill in a lot of the bare patches. Ideally I'm looking for a Spain/Portugal spring going into summer look, and too much green would not achieve this.
I'll post updates once I receive the new flock.
The good news is that my shed roof appears to be watertight :D so I can go ahead and insulate in readiness for winter. All I need then is an opponent, but not sure thats possible under current conditions.
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I now have 2 new boards ready for flocking.
The first is a generic cultivated area with some rough tracks running around them, and the second is half a hill with a rocky outcrop, rock fall and scree still to be added.
These boards should give me an opportunity to try out a variety of different flocks and grass.
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They are looking very nice.
I used Jeff's mix do to three different projects over a couple of years and each one looks different because of the different amount of each colour I put on each time, so I would suggest you keep a note of that so you can replicate it in the future.
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I now have 2 new boards ready for flocking.
The first is a generic cultivated area with some rough tracks running around them, and the second is half a hill with a rocky outcrop, rock fall and scree still to be added.
These boards should give me an opportunity to try out a variety of different flocks and grass.
Wow, that looks seriously good!
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They are looking very nice.
I used Jeff's mix do to three different projects over a couple of years and each one looks different because of the different amount of each colour I put on each time, so I would suggest you keep a note of that so you can replicate it in the future.
Thanks, and good point. I have the recipe listed in my painting note book.
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Wow, that looks seriously good!
Thanks Charlie - I'm awaiting a new static grass applicator, until then I'm prepping a few more boards. I probably need to start a separate topic for these.
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I came across this tutorial last night. Its an excellent step by step for flocking a mat, and is just as applicable to terrain boards.
Its probably been referenced on LAF before, but its worth linking again.
https://www.fantasticlegions.com/grass-gaming-mat (https://www.fantasticlegions.com/grass-gaming-mat)
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Well, its been nearly a year since I last posted on this topic, but finally I am nearly finished!
I eventually went down the Perry twins route, using basket liners to represent clumpy grass, and think it looks OK whilst still remaining functional.
There is still a lot of detailing to do, and lots of clumps to plant, but it is now usable.
Thanks to all who gave advice on this, its been fun to do and I have plans for a few more boards, in due course. For now its back to figure painting so I can use the table. ;)
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Looks great :)
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This is a fine job, many congrats!!!
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This is a fine job, many congrats!!!
Thanks, I'm happy with it, and looking forward to getting a few games played now.
Looks great :)
Thanks. Its not quite the look I intended originally, but will suit the periods I play.
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Nice to get it up to playing status. Well done.
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That looks great!
Has anyone found a similar sisal & jute liner roll in the US?
The closest I've found here is coir & latex, but I'm afraid the coconut husk strands will decompose over time.
https://www.kinsmangarden.com/product/Small-Coco-Fiber-Roll
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Well done, it looks great! I'd be very interested in seeing some closeups. Especially of the river...
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I'm afraid the coconut husk strands will decompose over time.
Last hedges that I made out of the rubberized coconut husks were still good five years after I made them. They just dried out a touch. Sold off all my terrain when I immigrated so I can't give you a ten or fifteen year update.
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Well done, it looks great! I'd be very interested in seeing some closeups. Especially of the river...
Thanks, I'll try and get some close ups today.
The rivers are very simple - just painted them a dark green (using acrylic craft paints) with a few lighter and darker streaks around the edges and middle, and then covered it in acrylic high gloss gel. I smeared it on with a spatula and then got it as smooth as I could. It does seem to take ages to dry though, and the final step will be to use Mod Podge to finish the surface off - smoothing it and adding a few ripple effects where needed. Apparently blowing the Mod Podge through a straw (or empty biro) gives a great effect.
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That looks great!
Has anyone found a similar sisal & jute liner roll in the US?
The closest I've found here is coir & latex, but I'm afraid the coconut husk strands will decompose over time.
https://www.kinsmangarden.com/product/Small-Coco-Fiber-Roll
Thanks.
I suspect that once you have stuck it down with PVA and then covered the top in PVA to glue the grass to it, and then sprayed it again with PVA to keep the grass in place any natural fibres will be pretty well preserved in PVA. The liner is pretty thin and once its coated its quite a firm surface. I dont think I would be too concerned about decomposition.
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Good point, thanks David.
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I'd be very interested in seeing some closeups. Especially of the river...
I hope these are OK and not too close?
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Thanks, that's very inspirational! The colours of the river and earth are just right.
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I agree with Charlie- I quite like the colours.
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Thanks, that's very inspirational! The colours of the river and earth are just right.
I cannot take credit for the earth colours, I used the paints suggested by Jeff965 (see post on page 2), but they give nice tones, and I also used a much lighter final dry brush as well as a more yellow ochre in patches to add some variety. A lot of the earth colour is lost when flocking, but at least it is there if the flock comes way.
I used about 8 different grass colours to achieve this look starting with a light green then a golden yellow, following with patches of lighter and darker greens and browns. Finally I dabbed fine flock over the grassed area to give a bit more texture. The sisal/jute liner is very good for representing rougher ground, and it is flat, although you can easily add indentations with your fingers as you glue it to give a more undulating effect. The light greenish colour of this stuff means you do not need to worry too much about a heavy covering of grass, and works well if you want a drier effect.