Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: WuZhuiQiu on September 23, 2020, 01:06:50 AM
-
Wargames Atlantic are now having a bit of a sale on their Persians, but I have not yet been drawn into gaming the Greek and Achaemenid Persian conflicts. Thus, I am wondering how far east and/or how late might they be used? For example, are they close enough that they should not be too difficult to convert into Parthians, Palmyrans, or Judaeans? What about Sogdians?
-
I saw that sale and went ahead and bit the bullet on a few boxes myself.
I had a thread not too long ago about a similar subject: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=126204.0
I'm hoping to use them in my crop of "generic eastern dirt-farming peasant masses", for what it's worth. I'm curious to see for myself how they mix in with other ranges. It's one thing to see someone else's pictures, but another to see it on your own table, right? :)
-
No great expert but I wouldn’t think these could serve as Parthians as they are basically a cavalry army. From what I recall Palmyrans are quite different and again mainly light cavalry and Cataphracts. Can’t comment about Sogdhians.
-
Parthians and Sogdians should be fine for spearmen and archers
Palmyrans or Judaeans I'm not sure on Palmyra probably a heavy Roman influence
check out A and A miniatures for metal palmyrans and convert some plastic romans
https://www.aandaminiatures.co.uk/categories/?c=15
As for Judaeans you could try something with gripping beast arabs
-
These would be better Parthians. https://newlinedesigns.co.uk/product-category/newline-designs-28mm-ranges/newline-designs-28mm-ranges-ancients/newline-designs-28mm-ranges-ancients-parthian/
BTW, I have numerous boxes of the Atlantic Persians and love them! If interested, here's my assembled and painted ones. https://dpb1298historical.blogspot.com/
But, then again, the Newline ones would be more expensive. Main difference is in the headgear. They have those more floppy caps vs the Persian tiara, Babylonian helmet, Mede round hat and Cissian headband. Sogdians (pre-Tajiks [I've been to Tajikistan]) have different headgear too. https://sogdians.si.edu/
Cheers,
-
Thanks for the links! Good stuff :D
-
Wargames Atlantic are now having a bit of a sale on their Persians, but I have not yet been drawn into gaming the Greek and Achaemenid Persian conflicts. Thus, I am wondering how far east and/or how late might they be used? For example, are they close enough that they should not be too difficult to convert into Parthians, Palmyrans, or Judaeans? What about Sogdians?
This box is only infantry and is tuned to the Persian Wars with Greece period, although there are many variants that can be used in later armies- sadly not as useful for the list you asked for.
Parthians- Had very few foot troops. Their tunic cut is a V neck style. Many militia troops were used to man the walls of cities so that could be an option.
Palmyrans, or Judaeans? - Some conversion work for the former, Judeans much more difficult because of the cloaks and fringed garments.
What about Sogdians - Sogdians wore a special style of hat, which can be recreated with some conversions so I would say yes.
They also can be used as later Sassanian Persians to some extent, its all about how attached to details one is.
The variants that are slam dunks are Elymaian archers. Other Bosphoran or Caspian Sea, Eastern light troops in Successors and Bactrian armies. Also it all comes down to how exacting you wish to be. The image posted below shows the level of subtlety in play.
But the Wargames Atlantic Persians are an excellent place to start.
-
Thank you, all! Now, to find some Sogdian hat references...
-
Thank you, all! Now, to find some Sogdian hat references...
This page has some. https://sogdians.si.edu/the-sogdians-abroad/
-
Yeah, basically looks like a good old Thracian/Phrygian cap, if you squint hard enough :)
-
This page has some. https://sogdians.si.edu/the-sogdians-abroad/
Thanks; that's a very interesting website!
Having read some more, would Kushans be a long stretch?
-
This page has some. https://sogdians.si.edu/the-sogdians-abroad/
Just in case you didn't notice, these are from a period almost 1000 years later than the achaemenids....
-
Good point. I think we all seem pretty blasé using “non-European” figures for a pretty wide timespan, but wouldn’t dare do the same for say Roman Legionaries.
A good “lesson learnt” for myself!
-
Belted tunics and trousers were worn for centuries by archers who used recurve bows. If the costume is similar enough, and the incoherent details can be added or removed, then why not...?
-
Sogdian cap Persian Wars era, recreated from Persepolis reliefs. The devil is in the details.
-
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ybmDwJ
Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
Sogdian and other Alexandrian era artwork
-
Thank you once again, Jeff!
-
Loving the bouffant Hollywood camel! :)
-
Just in case you didn't notice, these are from a period almost 1000 years later than the achaemenids....
Yeah I know that page is dealing with mostly AD Sogdians; my point being that their fabric headgear does not appear to change that much in that time period, making the images still a useful reference.
This page has a BC Sogdian helmet if that's a better reference. https://www.livius.org/pictures/uzbekistan/samarkand/afrosiab-sogdian-helmet
What I was trying to convey was that I don't think the Persian tiara in the Atlantic set would satisfactorily represent Sogdian headgear. Anway, I think that the reference that Jeff cited is probably the best one we've got.
-
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/ybmDwJ
Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
Sogdian and other Alexandrian era artwork
Thought I already replied to your post, but I guess I didn't :D
That artist is amazing :o That was like a several-hour rabbit hole, so thanks a lot lol
-
Good point. I think we all seem pretty blasé using “non-European” figures for a pretty wide timespan, but wouldn’t dare do the same for say Roman Legionaries.
A good “lesson learnt” for myself!
"Celts" are viewed as generic from the Galatians in Anatolia to the Caledonians in northern Britain with little sense of difference between the Gauls who sacked Rome in 390 BC and the Caledonians who fought against Agricola almost 500 years later. Warlord Games even has some of their Celts as fantasy barbarians with random fur belts and other silliness. I'd say the Romans are the exception in that they're treated with a sense of progressing though time that other cultures are not, particularly "barbarian" tribes of Europe who should be more familiar to the average model company given that most appear to be made up of people descended from those barbarians.
-
Sorry for changing the subject a little bit.
There is a lack of decent Scythian footsoldiers. Haven't had the box in my fingers now, but might it be possible th convert them to Scythians? Using Tracian heads oder convert the heads.
-
I wouldn’t use any of the current Wargames Atlantic or Victrix for Scythians.
The jacket is different. Baggy pants. Hair styles and hats and boots are different. The Dacian Phrygian cap has no lappets so it’s a solution that needs lots of conversion work. Nobody makes a tall hat that I would like in this scale. warlord used to have some tall hatted Scythians.
-
Thanks!
-
I wouldn’t use any of the current Wargames Atlantic or Victrix for Scythians.
The jacket is different. Baggy pants. Hair styles and hats and boots are different. The Dacian Phrygian cap has no lappets so it’s a solution that needs lots of conversion work. Nobody makes a tall hat that I would like in this scale. warlord used to have some tall hatted Scythians.
You are probably more of an expert than me but the tall hats would be the Saka?.It seems that, when I looked more closely into it , Scythian is a broad term covered several groups of related people. I got the feeling although the culture was broadly similar Scythians from the Ukraine or Crimea where clearly recognised as different from the Saka in the east or the Parthians in Iran.
In my 20mm armies I just used hatless Parthians as generic horse archer nomads because I'm a cheap skate :)
-
Saka, Sacae, and Scythians are just different names for the same folks.
However they did not all wear the same headdresses and hair styles.
Some of the Scythian tribes wore the pointy hats and the Persians called them the pointy hat wearers. Others were famous brigands so they were called “the robbers”.
But here is nicely done article:
https://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/
-
Saka, Sacae, and Scythians are just different names for the same folks.
However they did not all wear the same headdresses and hair styles.
Some of the Scythian tribes wore the pointy hats and the Persians called them the pointy hat wearers. Others were famous brigands so they were called “the robbers”.
But here is nicely done article:
https://www.livius.org/articles/people/scythians-sacae/
Cheers for that. The article helps reinforce what I had read before. I know I had read somewhere that in the west you had Scythians and the east Saka (and the the Saka wore very tall hats) and in between you had the Dahae who gave rise to the Parthians. It makes sense that these people who are essentially the same peoples would, in the east, would be named by the Persians and those, in west, by the Greeks.