Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Atheling on October 12, 2020, 10:11:48 PM
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The first thing I need to point out is that the following "How to Play Swordpoint" videos have been skilfully collated and narrated by Nic aka Medieval Wargamer with his permission from his YouTube Channel.
Here are Parts I, II and III with more to come.
You can see the videos on my blog here:
https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2020/10/swordpoint-how-to-play-videos-by.html (https://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2020/10/swordpoint-how-to-play-videos-by.html)
Or here are the direct links in sequence to Nic's Medieval Warrior page on YouTube:
Why I like SWORDPOINT Rules- "Line of Battle"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edqqBNWAXs&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE- (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1edqqBNWAXs&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-)
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How popular or widely played are these rules?
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How popular or widely played are these rules?
According to the WSS podcast GB have had over 3000 people putting input into the second edition George.
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other than Martin at shows; I have yet to encounter anyone actually play them. I have been on the side lines waiting to see if the rules built up the following that WAB had as I was a bit reluctant to invest in another ruleset which just occupies shelf space. I did once post on the swordpoint forum for players in the London area ( population of 8m according to the 2011 census) - received zero response. closest was reading, which is a bit of a faff for me to get too for an evening game
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other than Martin at shows; I have yet to encounter anyone actually play them. I have been on the side lines waiting to see if the rules built up the following that WAB had as I was a bit reluctant to invest in another ruleset which just occupies shelf space.
i don't think GB were expecting Swordpoint to replace WAB mate. I don't think anyone could. 1/ Most WAB players started with WHFB or were at least familiar with the basic mechanics of the game prior to playing the Historical version. 2/ It would be almost impossible to emulate the sheer reach that GW had/still has. I do think it's a bit of a shame that the rules haven't been picked up as much as they might have been in the popular wargamers imagination. I've mentioned to GB that they need to use YouTube, in the same manner as the Lardies and Mortem et Gloriam, Never mind the Billhooks etc have successfully managed. Hopefully this will come into fruition now that the Second Edition has been released.
I did once post on the swordpoint forum for players in the London area ( population of 8m according to the 2011 census) - received zero response. closest was reading, which is a bit of a faff for me to get too for an evening game
Try The Swordpoint and Militus Mundi Players Facebook page George, you will get a better response as the forum is not used on a regular basis; which again I think is a shame as I think the old fashioned fora, like LAF, are a much more civilised way in which more complex ideas can be discussed.
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hopefully it will build a critical mass and grow as a rule set, but I wonder if the current zeitgeist has moved away from the 28mm big battle rule set towards games with smaller figure counts and simpler rules rather like SAGA, SPQR. Infamy etc or if people prefer to do it in 15mm for reasons of cost, transportation and space
I am not on Facebook, so that rules that option out.
I wonder if the 40x40/50x50 basing thing may have hurt Swordpoint. If your figures were individually based for WAB you either have to get some card counters made up or rebase. Its even worse if you happened to have used 60x20 as your standard for multibasing the rank and file.
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hopefully it will build a critical mass and grow as a rule set, but I wonder if the current zeitgeist has moved away from the 28mm big battle rule set towards games with smaller figure counts and simpler rules rather like SAGA, SPQR. Infamy etc or if people prefer to do it in 15mm for reasons of cost, transportation and space
I wonder how much this is really true. Take a peek at some of the Never Mind the Bilhooks posts in the Medieval section and you will see armies of about 100 mini's per side being posted regularly. I think it's swings and roundabout. There will eventually be a move back towards 'mass battles' for want of a better phrase.
I wonder if the 40x40/50x50 basing thing may have hurt Swordpoint. If your figures were individually based for WAB you either have to get some card counters made up or rebase. Its even worse if you happened to have used 60x20 as your standard for multibasing the rank and file.
Maybe. I think the base size is a little small for most 28mm ranges nowadays. I've gone for 60mm deep with my Byzantines for example. I want my mini's to 'talk' to one another not just be stuffed onto a prescribed size. If I get outflanked more, then that's something I can live with (and with a sile on my face :) ).
Oh, you could still play with WAB sized bases. 4 x 20mm x 20mm = one base sort of thing. You can always fudge things re: base sizes as long as they are not too extreme.
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I would give Swordpoint some credit as it is one of the few rules sets that give some advantage to maintaining a line of battle.
I think it is difficult to gauge how popular any rules are just by reading forums, there always seems to be a vocal minority pushing 'the latest shiny thing' but how representative that is of the overall hobby?
WAB and the DBx series both had a large gaming community which no subsequent set has come close to gaining. I think there are still gamers with big collections but perhaps they don't publicise it? No doubt the gaming tables are still thrilling to WAB or even WRG 6th edition.
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I would give Swordpoint some credit as it is one of the few rules sets that give some advantage to maintaining a line of battle.
Which is the single most important thing that had to be maintained at all costs in an Ancient/Late Antiquity/Dark Ages (Early Medieval) battle. This is why I like the concept so much.
I think it is difficult to gauge how popular any rules are just by reading forums, there always seems to be a vocal minority pushing 'the latest shiny thing' but how representative that is of the overall hobby?
That is indeed almost impossible to gauge without a deep empirical study.
WAB and the DBx series both had a large gaming community which no subsequent set has come close to gaining. I think there are still gamers with big collections but perhaps they don't publicise it? No doubt the gaming tables are still thrilling to WAB or even WRG 6th edition.
Well, we still play WAB at the club (not so much since March!). V 1.5 which is perhaps surprising.
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Which is the single most important thing that had to be maintained at all costs in an Ancient/Late Antiquity/Dark Ages (Early Medieval) battle. This is why I like the concept so much.
That is indeed almost impossible to gauge without a deep empirical study.
Well, we still play WAB at the club (not so much since March!). V 1.5 which is perhaps surprising.
I think like the infamous Republican Roman rank replacement, most rule systems just ignore the importance of maintain the line. Do you remember in older rule sets, defeating the unit in front could cause panic to the units on either side, now apparently popular systems like HC and TTS , there is no impact on neighbouring units. I remember one game of TTs where I broke through the centre reached the table edge while the enemy's remaining units were still fighting near the centre. It would be difficult to see anything happening like that in a real world situation?
The classic question V1.5 or 2, must admit I thought 2, has some good ideas, a pity about the proof reading!
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I think like the infamous Republican Roman rank replacement, most rule systems just ignore the importance of maintain the line. Do you remember in older rule sets, defeating the unit in front could cause panic to the units on either side, now apparently popular systems like HC and TTS , there is no impact on neighbouring units. I remember one game of TTs where I broke through the centre reached the table edge while the enemy's remaining units were still fighting near the centre. It would be difficult to see anything happening like that in a real world situation?
The classic question V1.5 or 2, must admit I thought 2, has some good ideas,
Agreed. Swordpoint has a very good way of dealing with the Roman maniple, Early and Middle Imperial legions. A simple rule called Stamina. It basically allows for them to take a base of hits without removing the base. Simple, elegant and (probably) effective. :)
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I've got Swordpoint set up on the table at the moment - card cut out bases to trial for Successors, already done TTS and HC, so I'll be interested how it plays out.
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I've got Swordpoint set up on the table at the moment - card cut out bases to trial for Successors, already done TTS and HC, so I'll be interested how it plays out.
Report back please :)
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I would be interested to hear too, my mates dislike the momentum system which I found a bit cumbersome as well.
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now apparently popular systems like HC and TTS , there is no impact on neighbouring units
In TtS! when you break a unit, usually the units on either side need to take a rout test, which can, sometimes, carry them away. Personally, when I achieve a breakthrough, I usually turn the unit onto the exposed flank of one of the units on either side, although sometimes it can be worth rushing the enemy camp.
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I'm getting quite interested in Swordpoint. I really like the way (from the videos Atheling posted) that battle lines are critical, as befits nearly all ancient to medieval battles. Which is as others here have already said, just adding my voice to the choir. It sounds to me like it adds a bit of extra decision making to the usual centre-of-the-table clash of forces. Do I fall back with this beleaguered unit? How do I deal with those impetuous Knights pushing the enemy back on the left but leaving our line out of shape? Etc.
May have to grab a copy some time in the new year. It's a shame the supplements are quite pricey (when really I'm probably only going to want the WoTR list for the foreseeable) but hey, companies need to make some money I guess.
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I'm getting quite interested in Swordpoint. I really like the way (from the videos Atheling posted) that battle lines are critical, as befits nearly all ancient to medieval battles. Which is as others here have already said, just adding my voice to the choir. It sounds to me like it adds a bit of extra decision making to the usual centre-of-the-table clash of forces. Do I fall back with this beleaguered unit? How do I deal with those impetuous Knights pushing the enemy back on the left but leaving our line out of shape? Etc.
May have to grab a copy some time in the new year. It's a shame the supplements are quite pricey (when really I'm probably only going to want the WoTR list for the foreseeable) but hey, companies need to make some money I guess.
These are the same factors which attracted me to the rules. I've played too many games where one unit breaks and everyone else just stands. Or an entire unit, outnumbered by several average units annihilates them in turn. It is just not how battles were fought.
To be fair, I haven't managed to dig into Swordpoint as Covid hit just prior to a few games we had planned were to materialise. I think I've read through the rules enough now to get a feel for how they will play. There is a slight WAB residue but that (thankfully) doesn't effect the way the game plays. Or is of very little importance.
Roll on vaccination :)
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Why would the base sizes hurt the game?
If you have your minis on single 20x20mm bases you obviously just have to count four of them as a 40x40mm base...
if a 40x40mm base has to be removed you remove those 4 models.
same with cavalry, two models on 25x50mm bases make up a Swordpoint base. If a base is removed, you remove those two models.
I've got my infantry on 40x40mm bases with a bunch of single ones, based on 20x20mm. This way I can play any game with them, as I can have any number of models in a unit with the mix of these two base sizes.
Same for my cavalry, most are two models on a 50x50mm base, but musicians, banners, champions/leaders are on single bases, for those games where you have to remove those specific models.
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Why would the base sizes hurt the game?
If you have your minis on single 20x20mm bases you obviously just have to count four of them as a 40x40mm base...
if a 40x40mm base has to be removed you remove those 4 models.
same with cavalry, two models on 25x50mm bases make up a Swordpoint base. If a base is removed, you remove those two models.
I've got my infantry on 40x40mm bases with a bunch of single ones, based on 20x20mm. This way I can play any game with them, as I can have any number of models in a unit with the mix of these two base sizes.
Same for my cavalry, most are two models on a 50x50mm base, but musicians, banners, champions/leaders are on single bases, for those games where you have to remove those specific models.
TBH, I just base mine the way I fancy and fit them into the rules. If you're wargaming with a player that's bothered about a few mm here and there then I would be tempted to avoid playing said person.
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TBH, I just base mine the way I fancy and fit them into the rules. If you're wargaming with a player that's bothered about a few mm here wand there then I would be tempted to avoid playing said person.
Fully agree.
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Agree with that
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I'm getting quite interested in Swordpoint. I really like the way (from the videos Atheling posted) that battle lines are critical, as befits nearly all ancient to medieval battles. Which is as others here have already said, just adding my voice to the choir. It sounds to me like it adds a bit of extra decision making to the usual centre-of-the-table clash of forces. Do I fall back with this beleaguered unit? How do I deal with those impetuous Knights pushing the enemy back on the left but leaving our line out of shape? Etc.
May have to grab a copy some time in the new year. It's a shame the supplements are quite pricey (when really I'm probably only going to want the WoTR list for the foreseeable) but hey, companies need to make some money I guess.
Most of those factors are present in other rules. I won't deny that it has some good ideas, but my group found it to be a really mediocre set of rules to play. Essentially it is an update of WAB, and it doubles down on many of the shortcomings of that system. There's your dissenting opinion!
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Most of those factors are present in other rules. I won't deny that it has some good ideas, but my group found it to be a really mediocre set of rules to play. Essentially it is an update of WAB, and it doubles down on many of the shortcomings of that system. There's your dissenting opinion!
Dissent away. :) That's one of the reasons that LAF as a forum for public discussion of our hobby is so hugely important.
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Indeed! I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on the issues your group found, and what you feel are the WAB shortcomings that it doubled down on. Some of those might be things I like (I like WAB).
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I must admit I don't really see Swordpoint as a later version of WAB. WAB used figure removal, SP removes whole bases, shooting is less effective, combat is far slower in SP and there is a need to maintain the line to reduce the effects of losing a combat. There is also momentum and fighting by bases rather than figures which is several major differences to WAB. Unfortunately I would say the army lists do just seem to be a copy and paste from the WAB 2 lists, relying on themed supplements may not the best way forward, as you might be waiting a long time for your period of interest.
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I must admit I don't really see Swordpoint as a later version of WAB. WAB used figure removal, SP removes whole bases, shooting is less effective, combat is far slower in SP and there is a need to maintain the line to reduce the effects of losing a combat. There is also momentum and fighting by bases rather than figures which is several major differences to WAB.
It seems to play as a different game. Any similarities that arguably exist such as Cohension (Leadership), Attacks (how many dice), Defence (armour) are legacies of WAB but essentially play out in a different way on the table top in terms of the overall rules. SP own some things to rule sets that have gone before but I would find it difficult to think of very many that do not follow this pattern to some degree.
Unfortunately I would say the army lists do just seem to be a copy and paste from the WAB 2 lists
On this point to have to agree. The basic army lists in the book are very generic. I probably went white when I was looking at the Medieval (general) supplement as it had huge holes in it, obvious to me (for example, the lack of a Schiltron rile for the Scots). But, if you are willing to wait for the specific supplement then this will be remedied. I am, surprised that such a glaring omission was missed out in the general supplement. That is just one example.
relying on themed supplements may not the best way forward, as you might be waiting a long time for your period of interest.
Whilst in principle I agree that it is a pain to wait for specific supplements- I do think they are worth waiting for as more nuanced rules create more games.
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I was surprised that Swordpoint just like WAB 2 didn't have a feudal English list to cover late 12/13th century. I assume that as the rules don't seem to give any bonus to spears they ignored drafting a shiltron rule, although it does seem an odd omission considering how important this tactic is to a Scottish army? Unless this is included in the HYW supplement?
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I think this just goes to show how great the WAB supplements are (were...).
They gave background history, explained tactics, troop types, battles, pictures, etc.
The Swordpoint supplements are just extremely simplified army lists. Romans do not even have artillery options.
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I was surprised that Swordpoint just like WAB 2 didn't have a feudal English list to cover late 12/13th century. I assume that as the rules don't seem to give any bonus to spears they ignored drafting a shiltron rule, although it does seem an odd omission considering how important this tactic is to a Scottish army? Unless this is included in the HYW supplement?
In the HYW supplement from what (little) I know :)
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The Swordpoint supplements are just extremely simplified army lists. Romans do not even have artillery options.
That's shocking. It's how you kill a game before it gets anywhere - and the supplements aren't cheap either. That's given me serious pause about the rules.
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That's shocking. It's how you kill a game before it gets anywhere - and the supplements aren't cheap either. That's given me serious pause about the rules.
I think the comment refers to the army lists/books, the swordpoint supplements haven't covered the Romans yet. I believe there are rules for artillery on the GB website as a free download not sure, if these are in SP2? However that wouldn't be a game breaker, I am dubious that much artillery was used on the battlefield compared to the tabletop?
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I think the comment refers to the army lists/books, the swordpoint supplements haven't covered the Romans yet.
The supplements specific to certain wars thus far are:
Ghengis Khan
To the End of the Earth (Alexander and Successors)
Charlemagne
There are many more planned but Covid has slowed things down due to the inability to playtest.
I believe there are rules for artillery on the GB website as a free download not sure, if these are in SP2?
The rules are included in SP V.2
However that wouldn't be a game breaker, I am dubious that much artillery was used on the battlefield compared to the tabletop?
Yeah, probably not. Certainly not the larger Torsion Engines. There was a demand for said rules vis a vis they were included more for fun. There is of course gunpowder cannon, handgun and arquebus rules for the Medieval supplement. I think the HYW supplement is next followed by the Rise of Rome.
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out of interest has anyone tried these rules for the classical period; in particular the wars of the Greek city states and the hellenistic era?
I've heard some comments that Swordpoint rules can drag on and can be a pretty turgid affair with skirmishers being less effective than could be expected. I was also wondering about the base sized , is the ration of 40x40 infantry and 50x50 cavalry locked into the game or can the game support other basing systems - I have lots of hoplites and phalangists however, many of them are on 60x20 bases and the thought of re basing is enough to drive a man insane. I am aware of the old adage that as long as both armies are based the same than it should not matter, but that belief is frequently not a sound one as increasing unit sizes for examples will increase a unit's footprint on the table and unless a table is scaled up to match , the amount of free space for manoeuvring declines. This means that armies which rely on manoeuvre become less effective.
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out of interest has anyone tried these rules for the classical period; in particular the wars of the Greek city states and the hellenistic era?
I've heard some comments that Swordpoint rules can drag on and can be a pretty turgid affair with skirmishers being less effective than could be expected. I was also wondering about the base sized , is the ration of 40x40 infantry and 50x50 cavalry locked into the game or can the game support other basing systems - I have lots of hoplites and phalangists however, many of them are on 60x20 bases and the thought of re basing is enough to drive a man insane. I am aware of the old adage that as long as both armies are based the same than it should not matter, but that belief is frequently not a sound one as increasing unit sizes for examples will increase a unit's footprint on the table and unless a table is scaled up to match , the amount of free space for manoeuvring declines. This means that armies which rely on manoeuvre become less effective.
You have to remember that in SP loses are by base which suffers an amount of hits before it is removed depending on the troop type. Excess loses are discarded which tends to slow down base losses I have played a couple of EIR games v barbarians. I found that skirmishers are less effective against armoured troops, unless you can somehow mass your shooting. Combat is difficult to judge as there are aspects like whether you are maintaining the line, flanking, discouraged momentum etc, I found that units tend to hold a few turns longer than WAB.
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I just wanted to add to this thread, Nic has been doing pocket a series of size breakdowns of the rules with more to come:
SWORDPOINT Rules Pocket Explanations #1 (Hand to Hand Combat)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBYEc-cTE80&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=12 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBYEc-cTE80&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=12)
SWORPOINT Rules Pocket Explanations #2 (Line of Battle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhd3b3jkNg&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhd3b3jkNg&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=5)
SWORDPOINT Rules Pocket Explanations #3 (COMMAND FIGURES)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820JmVbD_gU&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820JmVbD_gU&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=6)
SWORDPOINT Rules Pocket Explanations #4 (STAGGERED Hand to hand combat)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA7eTFLN-Vk&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=7 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA7eTFLN-Vk&list=PLLtXIczdY4dVT1hpNZQ7MKQ-VIiCcPbE-&index=7)
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This is very helpful thank been wanting to try these rules - good too to see Essex miniatures getting into the action.
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This is very helpful thank been wanting to try these rules - good too to see Essex miniatures getting into the action.
Glad to be of assistance. Hopefully you will manage to get a game in before me- I've been waiting nigh on two years! (SARS CoV 2 etc)
Nic is planning on doing a whole series of videos. If you got to his Medieval Warrior - Wargaming page on YouTube you can subscribe and get notifications of stuff as he posts.
If not, I'mm probably post them up on this thread anyway :)
Nic's YouTube, Medieval Warrior - Wargaming page:
https://www.youtube.com/c/MedievalWarrior (https://www.youtube.com/c/MedievalWarrior)