Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: mictator on October 19, 2020, 12:05:18 AM
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Hello, need Rules for Big Battles for the Seven Year Wars.
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Honours of War (link (https://ospreypublishing.com/honours-of-war?___store=osprey_ca))?
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I have used Honours of War for SYW and WAS and I and my fellow gaming buds quite enjoyed it. They found it easy to pick up and the rules flowed and were good for major battles. 16-20 figure units with these rules. Great for an evening or afternoon game with a dozen or so units aside but able to handle bigger games - we did Mollwitz and Campo Santo as day long games.
I used to use Volley and Bayonet - the linear bases capture the look of SYW battles very well but it has some abstract mechanisms which some didn't like. Units are based on 3"x 1" bases so better for 15mm figs and 12-16 per unit was what I used. Might be difficult to get hold of a copy now too.
Currently I use the free rules which are available from Minden Miniatures by Jim Purkey. These are a little more detailed than HoW but just as simple to pick up. Unit sizes are 24 but you can play with smaller or larger units. I also use Jim's AWI rules too. Played some big games with both and Jim knows the period very well.
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I have played several SYW battles with Volley and Bayonet rules, but as Emir says there are some abstract mechanisms I am not very satisfied, however we have played very big battles with them.
The last years I'm stuck to the Honours of War rules, I'm posting regularly to the forum, AARs and scenarios (Dindin)
Honours of War forum link
http://honoursofwar.com/
You will have to register
Several Honours of War games' AARs I have posted here (to name but a few :) )
SYW Rearguard action - A C. Grant's scenario
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=124823.msg1573705#msg1573705
War o Austrian Succession: Village or Bridge
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=124540.msg1569352#msg1569352
SYW Honours of War Bergen 1759
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=123266.msg1550060#msg1550060
War of Austrian Succession: Madonna dell' Olmo 1744
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=123190.msg1548859#msg1548859
SYW Honours of War - Action at Inzl
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121861.msg1528737#msg1528737
War of Polish Succession 1733. The Battle of Sobieszewo (fiction)
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=118405.msg1482575#msg1482575
WSS Schellenberg 1704 with Honours of War
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=117293.msg1467727#msg1467727
SYW Honours of War - The battle of Georgsdorf (fiction)
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116630.msg1459222#msg1459222
Fontenoy with Honours of War
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=115591.msg1446693#msg1446693
SYW Honours of War - Take the Crossroads
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=112063.msg1401173#msg1401173
WAS Honours of War, Weissenburg 1744
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=111405.msg1392647#msg1392647
SYW Honours of War - Bridgehead - Fighting Retreat 12.09.18
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=110718.msg1384464#msg1384464
SYW Honours of War Lobositz
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=109572.msg1369376#msg1369376
Honours of War SYW, Spittelwitz scenario full AAR
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=108349.msg1353645#msg1353645
Honours of War Russo-Turkish war 1768, siege (fiction)
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=107966.msg1348763#msg1348763
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Might and Reason is good for large battles.
Maurice is great although not like other rules, being card driven.
Honours of War is pretty straightforward
Shako version 1 had a good SYW section (sadly gone in v2)
Piquet Field of Battle is good and covers SYW
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Mictator, thanks for asking the question. As the owner of some unused 15mm SYW forces dating back to the 1980s I will interested in the answers.
I know of a few candidates;
My own forces are based for a set called “Koenigs Krieg”. I think they are now at v3 but I have no idea where you can buy them?
“Die Kriegskunst”. From what I know these are based on “General de Brigade” and originally published by Caliver Books. Now only available as a PDF from Wargames Vault for $31.99.
“Maurice” by Sam Mustafa. Available from Northstar in UK for £30 but no idea where you can buy the necessary card set.
“Honours of War” by Osprey Publishing. £11.99 as a soft-back book.
I bought the latter but have never used them. I will check out DintheDin’s links for more information. I have found the Osprey rules very “hit and miss”. Hopefully these are more “hit”.
Also interested in feedback/suggestions for other rules.
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We use the 'Twilight of the Soldier Kings' rules which are designed for fighting large battles in this era - https://www.wyrehistoricbooks.co.uk/home
A unit is something like a brigade and most battles can be fought on a 'normal' table and in a reasonable amount of time - i.e. a typical 4 hour or so gaming session.
Usually this will be historic refights of full historical battles.
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Thanks for the tip re “Twilight of the Soldier Kings”. I have vaguely heard of them but have never investigated further. In the rules write-up they imply units of circa 100mm frontage as being a Brigade.
Can you give a view of how many units/Brigades a “normal” battle would entail?
Thanks
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Hey SJWi, Siege Works Studios in Australia is the current vendor for all things Koenig Krieg, including the new Version 4. I actually wouldn't recommend KK for really big battles, but I like 'em for two-player games with a few brigades on a side. Here's a link:
http://www.siegeworksstudios.com.au/cart/index.php
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Take a look at Batailles de l’Ancien Regime from oldregimerules.com
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SJWi:
Unit size is flexible and you can in fact use any basing/figure size/etc you want. All movement, etc, is in multiples of half the unit frontage you use. So with a 100mm unit frontage move would be 50mm, 100mm, 150mm, etc but if you have a unit frontage of 50mm then it would 25mm, 50mm,75mm, etc.
A frontage of around 100 - 120mm is often used as this means most battles will be on a table around 1.8m by 1.2m (6 foot by 4 foot in Imperial. So for example if you use a unit frontage of 120mm the the battle of Kolin (1757) is on a 1.8m by 1.2m table (6 by 4). The main exception to this is if you want to do a 'Manoeuvre' battle where one side is trying to march round the defender or is doing a converging attack - i.e. something like the Prussians did at Torgau or the Austrians did at Hochkirch.
Around about 10 units a side is a minimum army. The Prussian army at Kolin is 20 units and the Austrians around 30. We played Kolin a few weeks ago in an afternoon session with a Prussian player new to the system vs an expereinced Austrian player.
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Thanks for the tip re “Twilight of the Soldier Kings”. I have vaguely heard of them but have never investigated further. In the rules write-up they imply units of circa 100mm frontage as being a Brigade.
Can you give a view of how many units/Brigades a “normal” battle would entail?
Thanks
Rough rule of thumb is a brigade equals ~ 1,500-2,000 infantry or half that number of cavalry. 20,000 infantry and 8,000 cavalry should be perhaps 10 infantry units and 8 cavalry. Brigades should consist of 2 stands, with the basic measurement one base width. My 15mm figures are on 1 inch wide stands. I use 4 stands for a unit and use half the unit frontage (2") as my "base width" measurement. Most of the Twilight rules use this scale which allows you to play without rebasing, just adjust your "base width".
There are no separate firing or melee phases. At the start of your turn you test the morale of every unit that is being stressed in any way, by fire, melee, threats, etc. Once that is done any units still following orders may move and try to cause morale tests on the enemy in their following turn. Failing a morale test results in hits on units or possibly rout, being removed from the table pronto. 3 hits routs most infantry, 2 hits routs most others.
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There are no separate firing or melee phases. At the start of your turn you test the morale of every unit that is being stressed in any way, by fire, melee, threats, etc.
I am quite intrigued by this; it seems perfect for large battles.
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Would also recommend Honours of War.
The author has also brought out a free fast play set called Post of Honour but not tried them myself.
http://honoursofwar.com/page/downloads
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Chaps, many thanks. This thread has led me to dust off my very old SYW Prussian and French armies. Mainly 15m Freikorps of brittle metal fame, and based on either 3/4 x 1" x 1 or 1" bases depending upon whether infantry of cavalry. It looks like I have circa 80+ infantry and nearly 60 cavalry bases per army plus artillery. Sound slike enough for a reasonable sized game.
I also have the aforesaid "Honours of War" and the Crusader Miniatures "Rank and File" rules which may be worth a look before investing any more cash.
Somewhere I know i have a load of new GMB Prussian flags to give them a much-needed makeover.
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I'd like to shout out for 'King of the Battlefield', by Ian Godwin. Red v Blue, "Commanding 15 to 20 units each, in 4 or 6 player games, and never fail to finish a game in 2-3 hours. Simple mechanics, but tactically challenging, they give a great game" which was available through Miniature Wargames Magazine though I'm not sure now.
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True Dat.
Currently out of print and a bit hard to find though; I got a spare copy at claymore last year from a seller who had a small bundle that Ian Godwin had found in his garage but apart from that it would need to be eBay I reckon. If you see them buy them though, they do exactly what they're supposed to.
Rumour last year was that a 2nd edition was in the works along with a Napoleonic version, but who knows.
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Ian did mention some time ago that he wanted to expand into Napoleonic...
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I'm a big fan of Might and Reason for large scale battles. A "unit" of 2 bases, I use 28mm and put 6 figures on a base, is a brigade of roughly 4 battalions. A cavalry "unit" uses the same 2 bases and is roughly 10 squadrons. I think it plays very well for large battles and has enough flavor that it feels like the 7YW and not a generic horse & musket set. The Prussians may seem a bit overpowered, or more than a bit, but in general they are badly outnumbered so it plays out to pretty realistic, i.e. historical, results.
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Our club used Rank and File with some modifications for the Battle of Blenheim 1704. We have also used the rules without modification for smaller engagements. Pictures and an AAR for Blenheim can be found at https://18clovehamhock.blogspot.com/2019/08/blenheim-1704-at-miniature-wargaming.html (https://18clovehamhock.blogspot.com/2019/08/blenheim-1704-at-miniature-wargaming.html)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gerHrARrFu0/XVv1a6DOp0I/AAAAAAAADuI/q0w_IeWcrEskajbudb6fmDb60PHb2z6QACLcBGAs/s1600/20190818_113016_HDR.jpg)
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"Wanker"?
Command rating?
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That's unfortunately what happens when officers refer to the common soldiery of the wank-and-file...
Of course the classic boardgame 'Sniper!' included an example of play worded thus "An erect man exposes himself in an upstairs window..." :o
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I own a copy of Die Kriegskunst, which I believe may be unique among wargame rules - of any period - in its use of the word 'wanker'. (The fact that it I have not played a game with the rules is not related to this).
The Maurice card set can be bought direct from the publisher:
https://sammustafa.com/product/the-complete-maurice-card-set/
You can also download and print the Maurice action deck for free from Sam Mustafa's web site.
You don't get the 'notables' (commanders) but you don't need those for a game.
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The two groups I game with in Montreal and Ottawa use Age of Reason by Tod Kershner & Dale Woods, works well with 4 players and we have gamed with 12 players.
I ran a lot of AoR games at Historicon and all games were completed in the required 4 hour time slot.
Units are 12 to 16 figures for infantry, 6 to 8 for cavalry but there is an option to double the size of units if you like big units.
They are on their 3rd edition but we still use 1st/2nd edition - 2nd edition added an index and some minor text corrections.
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Thanks for the advices and Input.
I buy from Pendraken the 7YW Wars Range. I like for this scale crowded bases, Pendraken has many poses.
Want to play really big battles.
I know, no fire phase and only moral tests, but it is not sexy enough for me.
Want a Rule System with Fire Phase and what is available, wargame vault etc
Has anyone Pendraken Miniatures left?
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Pendrakens SYW ranges are brilliant, you can't go wrong there
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Take a look at the Strehla refight video here for an idea of the Twilight system - https://www.wyrehistoricbooks.co.uk/video (https://www.wyrehistoricbooks.co.uk/video)
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Pendraken SYW armies are some of their best, and the scale is excellent for SYW.
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"Wanker"?
Command rating?
My comment appears to have been deleted, presumably because of my use of an offensive word. Oddly, however, responses quoting it remain unaffected. I assure you it appears in the rule book, though not as a command rating, fair as it might have been in some cases.
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Hi Andrew.
I’m perplexed by your last comment ???
There are no limitations on rude words on LAF. You can use the word wanker as much as you please :)
I received a moderator report from you, saying please delete the post in question, as it’s continued presence bothers you - the post concerned was already showing only the single word ‘deleted’ - as edited by yourself.
So, per your request, I removed it.
Has something else been deleted, that you didn’t want to be deleted?
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I write that I like it crowded.
Which Rules have Regiments as Units?
For large games is Regiments are the norm or Brigades?
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Mictator, "Honours of War" by Osprey use 5 x 4-figure bases = 1 battalion as the basic manoeuvre unit. These are then grouped into Brigades. I think "Twilight of the Soldier Kings" uses the same sort of size unit but I think they may call this a Brigade.
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Honours of War, Maurice, Shako (7YW), Piquet FOB all have battalions as units.
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Honours of War, Maurice, Shako (7YW), Piquet FOB all have battalions as units.
Right!
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I write that I like it crowded.
Which Rules have Regiments as Units?
For large games is Regiments are the norm or Brigades?
King of the Battlefield uses regiments (~2 battalions each) as basic units.
Twilight of the Soldier Kings uses brigades (~4 battalions each) as basic units.
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There are no limitations on rude words on LAF.
LAF actually does have a profanity filter, but in my testing of it I have only found one word that it blocks. LAF won't let you say c***, if you want to see that I guess you have to go to Frothers. And the famous "Scunthorpe" problem was supposedly fixed years ago by most forum software programs, but it seems nobody told LAF. :)
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Hi Andrew.
I’m perplexed by your last comment ???
There are no limitations on rude words on LAF. You can use the word wanker as much as you please :)
I received a moderator report from you, saying please delete the post in question, as it’s continued presence bothers you - the post concerned was already showing only the single word ‘deleted’ - as edited by yourself.
So, per your request, I removed it.
Has something else been deleted, that you didn’t want to be deleted?
Good day Captain,
You are correct that my deletion re*uest related to the post containing the single word 'deleted', but the following post, which was how the original post was meant to read, has also disappeared. Thus the first instance of the word 'wanker' is frank xerox's *uery.
* for some reason the letter pronounced 'kew' does not work on this keyboard, which seems to have been designed by a wanker.
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Piquet's Cartouche rules are specifically for the 1695-1790 but with tweaks for each narrower period within that. They include a "Regimental" scale game where each unit represents 960-1440 men or 640-960 cavalry, so a large Regiment or small brigade.