Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Eclaireur on December 10, 2020, 03:39:26 PM
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Hi people,
I tried to start a discussion about this over on TMP so forgive me this indulgence. Actually didn't get many answers over there :-I
Looking to put together a Chain of Command force for the Eastern Front and I'm finding myself no exactly spoiled for choice. I like the smaller rather than 'heroic' 28mm and would like them in summer uniform, but frankly I accept that beggars can't be choosers. So my survey of what's out there includes ...
The Assault Group, Wargames Factory, Westwind, Warlord, Rubicon, and Artizan would all appear to be the M43 or later war pattern of uniform (though I'm aware there's a mix with Warlord).
This seems a bit odd to me. I mean I entirely understand why people want to do Berlin or Koenigsberg, but the opening months of the Stalingrad battle, surely the Big Daddy of all WW2 gaming, featured soldiers in the older M35 pattern. Then it got cold and as 1942 became 1943, they were all in greatcoats or snow suits so the difference is not so important.
On the earlier uniform all I've been able to find are ...
Crusader: nice, but quite a limited range.
Great Escape Games: probably the best option in terms of the number of castings, and the fact that they've made an effort with the uniforms. They're on the smaller side which is a plus for me, though could make them hard to blend with bigger guys. The only issues are that quite a few have strange gargoyle shouting faces (so I will do some head swaps) and some NCO types have shoulder boards which can also be fixed, since as far as I understand they only came in with M43 uniform.
Siberia Miniatures: lovely looking, with a real eye to getting the detail right, as you'd expect from Cuprum of this forum, but so far just a few sculpts, barely a squad.
1st Corps: quite an extensive range but big, right? sold as 1/48 if I understand right?
Then there's ...
Eureka: gorgeous looking, and I'd love to buy some but are they early or late? They seem confused. The guys in shirts have no shoulder boards, but the high collars typical of the M43. The padded jacket or telgoreika guys ditto.
Plastic Soldier Company: haven't established whether they're early or late, but have found a fair bit of negative comment around these suggesting they're just a scaled up version of their 20mm ones that look too wooden. Happy to hear a contrary view from any PSC fan!
So am I missing something obvious here?
all thoughts gratefully received,
EC
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Battle Honours maybe?
Think there are here now:
https://www.gaddisgaming.com/products/28s-wwii-minatures
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Artizan? https://www.artizandesigns.com/list.php?man=15&cat=124&page=1
On a tangent I really recommend CFM for buildings. https://www.charliefoxtrotmodels.com/collections/28mm-1-56-world-war-2-eastern-front?page=2
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Brigade Games has a Nomonhan range - not sure whether they're what you want?
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-3-w079dNKnc/V0s4mNn7gzI/AAAAAAABBiI/bJAAn2PMgw8BnMBoKYInlZSmqNYfQ4D_gCLcB/s640/443a650746959fa4be4fcf746466da2c_original.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N0uV4LcYVi8/V0y3VU6473I/AAAAAAACOZI/KZn0dTsecn8e-MTFpTFZPD8TY3AI_asfQCLcB/s1600/793939d737382159aa0a7e6e6fd68f07_original.JPG)
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Steve Barber Models do Budenovka Hats - which were more popular during the early war, but petered out as it progressed (presumably as other designs entered mass production).
https://www.stevebarbermodels.com/store/World-War-2-Russian-Heads-wearing-Budenovka-Hats-p147352127
As would Adrian helmets have been still in limited use if you want some more variety. Empress are probably your best option for those (under their Spanish Civil War range).
I'd expect that most collectors are wargamers first, so that's what the market caters to. Instead going for the more generic later war uniforms and equipment - so as gamers can play with the bigger tanks. Then not caring about uniform details when using these same collections for other periods. Which may be why you don't see specific uniforms for other Nations being done - or certain Nations at all. I mean there's similarly hardly any options for a proper force of Soviets in snow suits, or in particular earlier patterns of winter camo too (i.e. the bed sheets, instead of tailored suits). There's a whole 3 models out there wearing the German pattern of quilted winter clothing... Most gamers are fine with what they're given, and either aren't aware, or don't see the difference in equipment that more historically focussed individuals may. Or as I said, just don't care.
Compare the amount of pre-war vehicles available (which weren't used by the Germans), to mid-war equipment. I don't believe anyone makes a T-27 tankette for instance and there was hardly any options for the T-38 till recently.
Edit:
As for the ranges.
1st corps infantry seem to be 28mm to me from the casualty figures from them that I have. Though they're on the chunkier end of 28mm, so I couldn't recommend them for you.
Great Escape Games figures - whilst a bit slimmer than Warlord's plastics - still tend to be towards Heroic scale. They're really hit and miss in that regard. With some being more suitable. As are their weapons a bit all over the place too. Generally figures with rifles tend to be better proportioned, but I've found that their SMGs tend to be quite exaggerated.
From what I understand Plastic Soldier Company's models are all upscaled 20mm. At least that's how they look as far as their detail goes. The figures I have from their artillery sets are the same size - if not thicker - than Warlord's plastics. So I'd advise avoiding them barring for using the artillery pieces and other support weapons with another company's crews.
Rubicon Models do Soviets. Which tend to be on the taller and slimmer end of the scale- as they're made to go with their 1/56th scale vehicles range. However they're mostly late war. But I'd still say have a look in case some things can be modified - as they're nice figures and may fill in the gaps of other ranges. I have their whole snow suits line. :)
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whoa thanks guys - lots of good stuff there ...
the gaddis gaming and Brigade ranges are both a little tricky for me because they are US based and I am UK. But I have just got some Brigade Napoleonic stuff delivered via friends, so @HangTuah I will definitely look at those early war guys in the Nomonhan range.
@6milPhil the Artizan are late war alas but I buy stuff quite often from Charlie Foxtrot so those buildings are definitely on my radar.
@Wyrmalla - thanks for such extensive advice, I've admired your eastern front winter work for some time now and know you pay great attention to detail.
I really don't mind the early tanks at all, and am looking forward to pitting Panzer II and IIIs against T26, T70 or T34/76. Thinking of introducing a Valentine into my Russian force also.
Interesting what you say about the German cold weather gear (lack of). The Offensive Miniatures Winter Germans range has some interesting guys in it, including wearing parkas. Perhaps you can persuade them to do a pack in quilted gear, double the amount of castings available :D
I've bought the Great Escape Russian summer platoon pack and agree the riflemen are generally good. I will look again at the SMG firers. The LMG teams seem on the right side of acceptable also.
Maybe I need to order some 1st Corps sample guys ...
Thanks again people
EC
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OK the stiff collar is deffo 1943
However unless you pick them up you will never see at 3 feet.
I would go with Eureka as they are gorgeous :-*
Black Tree if you are a gambler :-X
The Assault Group or Brigade Games if you are rich :'(
Westwind if you are in UK and frugal lol
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Not interested in 20mm?
Loads of choice out there
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(just ignore my nonsensical Eastern Front Italians... ;))
It seems like to miniatures manufacturers German winter gear tends to mean either great coats, smocks or parkas. A few companies now do those parkas actually. Its just that if you want figures in quilted suits they'd be a pain to sculpt from scratch on so many models (well, assuming that someone isn't paying you...). So its not a project I've undertaken myself. The lack of figures in quilted suits is one of the reasons I've avoided adding Hungarians to my winter collection. ::)
If you're wanting Perry / WGF/ etc proportioned guys I'd really avoid 1st corps. They're sculpted more in a style that you'd see 40 years ago in terms of their proportions and quality.
I'd maybe say check out what Colonel Bills Wargames Emporium has first too. As I remember them carrying Black Tree design's figures a few months back (and they weren't exactly selling quickly. The same figures were there at the start of the year too).
Westwind and the Assault Group could do. However they tend to be all over with their ranges in terms of proportions. Looking on the internet first for scale comparisons for a particular range is advisable so you don't wind up having to return unusable figures.
And I believe Offensive Miniatures said ages ago that they wanted to do Soviets. Which seems to have gone nowhere unfortunately. Presumably they'd be suitable for whatever of the Kharkov battles their Germans are supposed to be based around (which sadly may be post-1943).
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TT - always on hand with good advice :) top of the Tasmanian morning to you!
Eureka, well yes...
Black Tree - sorry bad experiences so will not take the chance, but picked up some suitable Germans of theirs on eBay, and will keep an eye out for Russians
TAG - like them a lot but just too late war in their look
Westwind - sorry guys, blobs
@gamer Mac - just too invested in 28mm now, with a large German force etc. But yes, if I had my time over AB 20mm for Normandy and eastern front
@Wyrmalla - Italians ... a law un themselves ;)thanks for the added pointer on 1st Corps. will check Colonel Bill's page - maybe he sends them to Olde England at reasonable price.
agree about Offensive and their late war tendencies. I've actually got some of their German stuff for late war, and use it to face off against my Empress late war Brits. so I may eventually get around to that whole last days of Berlin thing ...
EC
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Why not consider converting plastic Warlord figures? It's not that hard. It is a pity of course that these figures have a ridiculous mixture of summer and winter uniforms, but you can try to share the sets with those who need figures in winter suits, for example, in Stalingrad. "Greenstaf" a little bit - and you will have what you need.
But, of course, I want to tear out my eyes, not looking at the faces of these figures ... well, or to rip out the hands of the sculptor, who is probably only able to sculpt orcs lol
(http://diorama.ru/_img/content/gallery/4713/1.jpg)
More photos here: https://diorama.ru/gallery/figures/4713/
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Thank you for that Cuprum - yes they have a particular Warlord style both with the faces and some of the strange poses.
I expect I will get a sprue or two of Warlord, if only to make those conversions for heavy weapons crews or sappers, which you need in the Chain of Command support lists. Converting the plastics is easier than metals.
Do you have a UK or European stockist for your Siberia figures?
EC
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Alas, no.
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Blitzkrieg Miniatures intend to release both early war Germans and Russians in a very Perry compatible size in metal. Photos of the Germans appear on Facebook. Something to look forward.
Andy (the new boy)
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Thanks Andy - and welcome aboard :)
I know the Blitzkrieg vehicles of course but wasn't aware they made, or were planning figures. we'll see what emerges,
EC
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Morning EC ( from a rather warm Tassue)
I hear ypy re BTD even when I got my Soviets years ago it was always a fraught experience with little or no comms so col Bills is best bet.
As for Westwind woild not exactly call all of them blobs , heres a quick n dirty photo with an Artizan or Dixon figure in the middle.
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Ah TT, I envy you the warmth and long days down there.
Many thanks for the pic, and those figures do seem quite interchangeable in terms of size and quality. I had a negative experience with Westwind late war British infantry - huge helmets, tiny packs, odd (blobby) proportions. I suppose each range has its high and lowlights.
I've been pleasantly surprised with the sample Russians I've acquired that several ranges (GEG, BTD, TAG, Crusader, Warlord, and Artizan) seem pretty interchangeable size-wise.
EC
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I would agree with the view on Westwind. Some sculpts are very nice, others pretty poor. There is seemingly no consistency between ranges or even packs within a range. I find a similar issue with Old Glory.
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@SJWi I think with Westwind it is a recent thing if you choose the Separate Head System stuff they are 28mm and reasonable sculpts.
@EC the sun went down here tonight at 9.30pm it was still 24 deg C. :-*
If you have my luck just after you finish putting together your 1942 Russian lopk alikes someone will sculpt a perfect and complete range! :'(
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Damn you and your Daylight Saving, our lot keep voting against it.
@SJWi I think with Westwind it is a recent thing if you choose the Separate Head System stuff they are 28mm and reasonable sculpts.
@EC the sun went down here tonight at 9.30pm it was still 24 deg C. :-*
If you have my luck just after you finish putting together your 1942 Russian lopk alikes someone will sculpt a perfect and complete range! :'(
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TT - bask in that sunshine mate, it's grim up here!
and yes, those beautiful, Paul Hicks sculpted early war Russians will be unveiled just as I finish my mongrel force ;)
EC
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Stalingrad - yeah. Someone should persuade Paul Hicks to sculpt a range of Soviets for that, and Germans. Would be awesome.
This thread made me remember a kickstarter from a few years ago about the Winter War. I think it was Baker Company. Seems like Baker Company disappeared perhaps as a result of that? Last post on their facebook page was November '15 and it looked like mostly people wanting their money back from the kickstarter....
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Didn't Black Tree Design do a Winter Soviet range Kickstarter?
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Having acquired figures from six manufacturers during this quest I thought it might be worth an update on this, just in case others search and find this thread.
- my summer 1942 platoon is being built from Great Escape Games (GEG), Warlord (plastics) and Black Tree Design (BTD). The odd Crusader figure might find its way in there also. It's a mongrel mix and the size matches as well as a few other things aren't perfect, but if you want the tunic (gymnasterka) worn at that time, with larger collar and no shoulder boards, that's the way to go.
- for the winter Stalingrad fighting, you're best off using the Warlord plastics (just three out of the eight figures on their sprue are in winter gear...), Artizan, Crusader, and GEG.
- if you want the tunic that came in from February 1943 (with shoulder boards and high collar), ie post-Stalingrad or late war, things are much sweeter because there are two excellent ranges in the shape of The Assault Group and Eureka.
- if you like a slimmer, more anatomically correct look, you've got Wargames Factory plastics and Rubicon. These guys have smaller heads than the other ranges but are both best for the late war period.
What's remarkable to me about these ranges if how many are marred by mixing up of those tunic styles - GEG NCOs or Crusader officers wrongly have shoulder boards with M35 pattern shirts. BTD has some lovely, characterful, figures but also random mixing of styles and rather odd shape for M40 helmet. Eureka has the later, high, collar on its summer tunics, but no shoulder boards. If it comes to making improvements, removing the boards with craft knife and file is easier than adding the larger collars with green stuff.
Last random thought - the sales or deals offered by several makers are well worth waiting for. BTD used to have its ranges on sale intermittently through much of the year, but most people have given up with them due to the long waits for delivery. The best deal I picked up during recent purchases was Warlord KV1/KV2 kit that comes with a sprue of infantry + weapons, mine for £13.33 when bought with two other plastic vehicle kits.
Just hoping for the day the perfect range for 1942 comes out!
EC
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During 1943, it was often possible to see soldiers and even officers in an M1935 tunic, but with new shoulder straps. Until the previously made uniforms were used up, the old-style tunics continued to be used.
(http://goryreki.ru/wp-content/uploads/tuct_dy-8vw.jpg)
(http://strannik74.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/TASS_1023937.jpg)
(http://multiurok.ru/img/610605/image_5eea353e20b88.jpg)
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Excellent! thank you for that Cuprum. So some of the 'mixed' figures do indeed work for 1943. Should add Ive also seen example of M35 with collar cut down like M43 but no shoulder boards (this will my excuse for fielding Eureka figure in gymnasterka ;) )
EC
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How suitable would Parkfield Miniatures range be for your project? They're mostly in Greatcoats - but perhaps could be mixed in with the temperate uniforms for variety?
https://www.parkfieldminiatures.co.uk/winter-war-1939-40-russian
Tiger Miniatures also seem to do interwar Soviets.
https://www.tigerminiatures.co.uk/soviets-1920-1940
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thanks @Wyrmalla I'll give them a look :)
I've a feeling, if I wanted some real early war guys or even Mongolian campaign, I'd go for the Brigade Games range which look pretty nice to me. But it's great to have some extra choices,
happy new year!
EC
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Read this thread with interest as I have been considering getting some WW2 Russians. Probably more late War but not that bothered. The Crusader range looks favourite as nice sculpts and they have the support weapons as well. May supplement with Bad Squiddo sniper teams.
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Just hoping for the day the perfect range for 1942 comes out!
EC
Someone needs to get Paul Hicks working on that....