Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Solus Ludio Unus on December 18, 2020, 01:59:23 AM
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I am seeking rules suggestions for Gladiatorial Fantasy Arena Combat which includes ancient unmentionable strange monstrosities and beasts.
Homebrew, free, or commercially produced. The less expensive the "buy-in ticket" the better.
The rules must allow for use of generic models across all model ranges available.
One on one combat and small teams of ten or less models per side.
I also want to wow the crowd enough to have them come to the table for a closer look.
Something with the fighting pit that will nicely fit on a standard portable playing card table.
I want to be constantly modeling new fighting pits and arenas throughout the course of a life long campaign that allows for players to come and go, yet the story remains endless.
A major factor I seek is fluid movement and positioning of the models relative to each other. I want maneuvering, flanking, concentration of force, gameplay elements, critical to provide tactical interest.
I loathe games where models are stagnant; just standing there, rolling dice at each other playing paper-rock-scissors, constantly having to flip pages looking up numerous charts.
I shy away from games which require all kinds of paraphernalia such as exclusive card packs and one of a kind sets of kooky dice.
Regular easily available playing cards and standard RPG dice might be acceptable.
I also would not mind RPG elements sprinkled in for character advancement and intriguing story line.
Something along the lines of a Fantasy Spartacus series on the tabletop. Nothing too heavy on the book keeping side though.
But most importantly of all is being able to demo this game for friends and local social events where people easily grasp gameplay and want to play again.
Arena Rex was one suggestion however there is no workable way I have been able to find to add and design my own Gladiators and "Titans" and the price tag is WAY out of range. We are all hurting financially right now.
It's a tall order for certain.
Please post recommendations:
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Blood, Sweat and Cheers has just come out in a revised edition. It is a card driven game for one-on-one bouts. Cards are used to abstractly represent the different options available to a player’s gladiator during the ebb and flow of a gladiatorial bout, while dice are used to resolve interactions. The watching crowd interacts with the gladiators in the arena by rewarding showy attacks and spilt blood with favourable cheering which may in turn be utilised to buoy up a gladiator’s performance.
http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/p/blood-sweat-and-cheers.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/p/blood-sweat-and-cheers.html)
You can see the rules for them here: https://www.drivethrucards.com/download_preview.php?pid=208658 (https://www.drivethrucards.com/download_preview.php?pid=208658)
The cards are available from DriveThru cards (lovely quality but hefty postage outside of the US), or in print and play format from Ganesha Games.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MBK9pEJA3Wk/WELz5LB1c0I/AAAAAAAAE1w/teFEY5_EkQoAAzFL8TkrFhxVaY0TIxeqwCPcB/s1600/4.JPG)
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I can think of a few BUT most do not have the "weird" element as part of the rules.
How much work are you willing to do to add that, if any?
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I was editing my post as you kind people were replying please re-read the initial post. Thanks
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If you can get ahold of the rules and card then gorechosen from GW is a wonderful arena combat game.
The only issue of course is that you can't make your own characters using the rules but i'm sure you can mess with it if you do try it.
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There are no Fantasy elements in the following, but they might fit the bill.....
1. The Games: Blood and Spectacles
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/210557/The-Games-Blood-and-Spectacle
It does have an entry for Dwarf and Female Gladiators, so it is closer to what you are looking for. Some rules for obstacles and such in the arena, and several different types of events besides Gladiator duels. Beware the Typos! However, the couple comments in the discussion on it are positive.
2. Familia Gladiatoria
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/267019/Familia-Gladiatoria?term=familia+glad
This is a card based game, and I believe there is a campaign system. However, it also has no fantasy elements to it.
3. Sons of Mars
https://godseyegames.com/product/polo/
I know the least about this one, but it does focus on campaign play between Ludus. Each gladiator is very customizable. Again, I do not think there are any rules for Fantasy/weird elements to it though.
Just some thoughts to get you going....
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Maybe Red Sand Black Moon from 2Hour Wargames will suit you. There's a PDF on WargameVault (https://www.wargamevault.com/product/117630/Red-Sand-Black-Moon--Fantasy-Gladiators)for $15 and Ed has a playthrough of it on here (https://2hourblog.blogspot.com/2012/04/red-sand-black-moon-step-by-step-demo.html?m=1).
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It's a tall order as you say, but I'd look at two of the Osprey variants of Song of Blades and Heroes: A Fistful of Kungfu and Of Gods and Mortals. Both are cheap, and both are great.
Fistful of Kungfu is (obviously) designed to simulate wushu movies, but it's great for dynamic, larger-than-life combat. And it has lots of movement - knockdowns, pushbacks, combat advantages for emerging from cover, etc. It could be quite a good fit, and it already has quite a few fantastical elements. You could port in more from other games in the Song of Blades family.
Of Gods and Mortals is designed for mythological battles between gods, 'legends' (heroes and monsters) and mortal followers. So it accommodates a wide range of monstrosities and beasts as a default. One drawback might be that the mortals fight in small units. But you could easily ditch them altogether and just use legends and gods (i.e. huge monstrosities).
Crucially, both games allow you to create any sort of creature you like. Both are highly intuitive and require little or no rulebook consultation once you've played a game or two. And both are lots of fun. Song of Blades and Heroes itself, either basic or advanced, might work perfectly well too. But - from memory - Fistful of Kungfu is the iteration of the rules best suited to what you want.
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Didn't the Warhammer Historical imprint publish a gladiator book just before shutting its doors or did it not ever get released?
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Didn't the Warhammer Historical imprint publish a gladiator book just before shutting its doors or did it not ever get released?
It was released, but is hard to find. It has no fantasy elements. I have heard the game play was not very dynamic either.
However, I have never played it myself.
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It's a tall order as you say, but I'd look at two of the Osprey variants of Song of Blades and Heroes: A Fistful of Kungfu and Of Gods and Mortals. Both are cheap, and both are great.
Fistful of Kungfu is (obviously) designed to simulate wushu movies, but it's great for dynamic, larger-than-life combat. And it has lots of movement - knockdowns, pushbacks, combat advantages for emerging from cover, etc. It could be quite a good fit, and it already has quite a few fantastical elements. You could port in more from other games in the Song of Blades family.
Of Gods and Mortals is designed for mythological battles between gods, 'legends' (heroes and monsters) and mortal followers. So it accommodates a wide range of monstrosities and beasts as a default. One drawback might be that the mortals fight in small units. But you could easily ditch them altogether and just use legends and gods (i.e. huge monstrosities).
Crucially, both games allow you to create any sort of creature you like. Both are highly intuitive and require little or no rulebook consultation once you've played a game or two. And both are lots of fun. Song of Blades and Heroes itself, either basic or advanced, might work perfectly well too. But - from memory - Fistful of Kungfu is the iteration of the rules best suited to what you want.
I have reviews of both games on my Blog if you want to know more:
Fistful of Kung Fu
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-fistful-of-kung-fu-osprey.html
Of Gods and Mortals
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-of-gods-and-mortals-osprey.html
Along similar lines, you may also want to check out Kobolds and Cobblestones. The game has a variety of meta-humans to play with, and uses a standard playing deck of poker hands to resolve. May work for what you are looking at.
Kobolds and Cobblestones
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/07/review-kobolds-and-cobblestones-osprey.html
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I see you’re located in the USA so postage should be less an issue, so for figures you could look at Bronze Age Miniatures. They have a few human gladiators - http://bronzeagemin.com/history/gladiators/ - but they also have figures in other lines the would also be suitable for fantasy gladiators such as this ogre: http://bronzeagemin.com/32ogr2/ and these orcs: http://bronzeagemin.com/32orcs1/
Be aware, though, that they’re relatively tall figures (32mm size) from Bronze Age.
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I have reviews of both games on my Blog if you want to know more:
Fistful of Kung Fu
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-fistful-of-kung-fu-osprey.html
Of Gods and Mortals
https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-of-gods-and-mortals-osprey.html
Interesting and thorough reviews (as always). I disagree, though, with the common criticism of SoBH for having too few stats and too many special rules. I've played most of the iterations with both my kids and other adults over the past six years, and we've always found that the special rules are so intuitive that you never need notes on the roster sheet.
Many involve simple +1 or -1 modifiers in certain circumstances, and their effect is to allow that simple statline to do different things - so that a cavalryman has an advantage over an infantryman but not another rider, for example, or so that a skilled archer is better at shooting than at fighting. A character with the Big rule gets +1 in hand to hand, but his opponents get +1 when shooting at him.
Others are obvious: Long Move means that the character uses the Long movement stick; Shooter: Short, Medium or Long works in the same way; a Hero always passes at least one activation roll; and so on.
The net result of this is that the system is one of the easiest to teach and the quickest to get going; above all, SoBH games have a very short 'time to table'. And because of the way the traits interact with the stats, you can have two characters with the same Q and C who play in entirely different ways.
Another great thing about the system is the way morale works. More than any other skirmish game I can think of, SoBH captures the nervousness of a real fight; people back off, retreat and even flee entirely (in an arena game, this would presumably translate into throwing down their weapons). That adds to the dynamism of the game - a failed morale test can scatter your warband around the table). And the core 'push your luck' mechanism is gold.
I've just dug out the Fistful of Kung Fu rules to have another look through, and I really think they'd be perfect for fantasy gladiators. If your arena has lots of terrain for the combatants to interact with, so much the better! And it's worth noting that the rulebook already includes a fair few supernatural creatures - from dragons to zombies. It'd be a simple matter to stat up others - or import them from the standard fantasy rules.
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Thanks everyone for helping me. I sincerely value everyone's input and suggestions. Easy E, thanks for turning me on to Wargame Vault. That was a huge help. For several months I have been gradually collecting rules for this project. I have some RPGs that were recommended.
Now for models: what scales?
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions for models and minis?
Modifiable plastic kits I should consider?
I have some cardstock figures to use until I decide.
I am keen on trying more contrast paints, I have all the earth tones and they worked wonderfully well on my WWII U.S. Airborne.
What is the new hotness with brushes these days?
Anything new to market better than Windsor Newton Series 7 sable?
If you have any suggestions I welcome everyone's input and greatly appreciate everyone who responded.
Thank you.
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Now for models: what scales?
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions for models and minis?
Modifiable plastic kits I should consider?
28mm offers the most variety, by far, and the greatest number of plastic kits. But if you want a core of genuine gladiators along with the fantastical stuff, you might be able to do things cheaper by going either smaller (1/72) or bigger (1/32). There are several very good gladiator kits in 1/72:
Ultima Ratio (http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=2718)
Pegasus (http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1258)
Italieri (http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=719)
Orion (http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=287)
Any one of those boxes would give you a core of historical (more or less) gladiators that you could build the rest around - and they're very cheap compared with 28mm. If you base them on pennies or washers, they'll be stable enough. And if you want other historical elements like elephants or chariots, there are lots of options at that scale - and they're all very affordable.
For fantastical elements, Caesar and Dark Alliance offer plenty of options in 1/72. The Dark Alliance Amazons, Centaurs and Minotaurs might be of particular use if you're sticking to a classical theme, but you can get everything from lizardmen to giant fire demons from those two ranges.
At the other end, you could go up to 1/32. The Pegasus gladiators are available at that scale too (I recently acquired them to use as giants in 28mm or 1/72 - the dark base is for 'dungeon-crawling):
(https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=128306.0;attach=137819;image)
There's also a 1/32 box from Italieri, but it seems hard to find at the moment and may have been discontinued. And various manufacturers make (more expensive) metal 54mm or 1/32 gladiators. There are quite a few other cheap 1/32 ancients as well, though the quality varies quite a bit.
At the bigger scale, the fantastical elements would be slightly harder to come by, but you'd get a more striking spectacle. Whatever scale you end up using, you can get lots of cheap fantasy creatures from the Reaper Bones range. That range is at its best with 'medium-sized monsters' - ogres, trolls, bugbears and the like. Those would give you a wide range of exotica that could be rationalised with appropriate re-skinning: could a squat bugbear be a blemmye in 1/32, for example? You can also get plenty of cheap classical monsters from Reaper: minotaurs, manticores, chimeras and the like. And Reaper does bigger and weirder things too.
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We just played a game of Fistful of Kung Fu. Although we were using sci-fi miniatures, I kept an eye out for its effectiveness as a gladiatorial game. I reckon it would work really well. It is - by design - pulpy and larger than life, but that probably suits an arena set-up well, as it's theatrical and entertaining.
One of the key differences between the game and others in the Ganesha/SoBH stable is that you get an even wider variety of potential combat outcomes. The core SoBH rules are pretty good for this already, with their knock-downs and push-backs, but AFFoKF has wounds, disarming (in various forms), grappling, distraction, knock-outs, humbling, stunning, staggering, laming, blinding and activation of scenery.
The emphasis on dropped weapons is particularly appropriate for gladiators, I reckon, and there's an Entangle rule that's perfect for retiarii.
And again, the various special rules are highly intuitive. You'd probably check a few of them the first time you play and then never need to look them up again; that's certainly been our experience with SoBH-type rules.
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Hobgoblin; thank you so much for taking time out of your day to help me. I had a look at your blog and loved your write up of Oathmark. You have a refreshing perspective and it is greatly appreciated. I have much to consider, though my path seems to be a little clearer thanks to you. Blessings upon you, your house, and family. I look forward to reading your blog regularly, and having something to look forward to is what keeps us all going.
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Interesting and thorough reviews (as always). I disagree, though, with the common criticism of SoBH for having too few stats and too many special rules. I've played most of the iterations with both my kids and other adults over the past six years, and we've always found that the special rules are so intuitive that you never need notes on the roster sheet.
Of course, I fully expect people to disagree with my thoughts. After all, I write and review based on my biases about games. I at least try to be transparent about where my biases are, so you can decide if you agree with me or if you prefer something else.
Thanks for sharing those additional insights about the game as you have experienced it. Good stuff!
I have also been tempted to do 1/72 Gladiators but I all ready have my 28mm Crusader ones, and I do love them so. I doubt I will be making the leap to 1/72 even though it is very tempting!
Edit: I read your review of Oathmark, and it is the first one to actually make me somewhat interested in trying the game out. I think it was the "Proxy" section of your review that really spoke to me.
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Easy E you could use the 1/72 stuff with 28mm, and be still be historically accurate.
What led me down the path for this particular project was the "Celtic Holocaust" a free podcast by Dan Brown on his website "Hard Core History".
https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/
He goes into detail about how tall the Romans were when compared to the Gauls a.k.a Celts, and how much they feared the bordering "German" tribes which were giants compared to the Gauls.
Then I checked out a copy of "The Landmark Julius Caesar The Complete Works" by Kurt A. Raaflaub. Chapter one of this book set the hook.
When Caesar and his men paused outside of Vesonito to acquire grain and other provisions; the Gauls and traders who lived there declared to his troops that the Germans had "enormously" tall bodies, and were unbelievable brave in battle, and that when they Gauls met with the Germans they could not tolerate their facial expressions nor the sharpness of their gaze.
From there Caesar goes on to tell of how terror and panic seized the whole camp ....
For my own collection according to Dan's Carlin's observations I may model Romans in 25mm, Gauls in 28mm, and Germans in "heroic" 28mm or even larger.
Another interesting concept Mr. Carlin notes in this particular podcast episode is how recently archaeologists have been examining newly discovered graves of "Huns" and that these specimens have "monstrously" elongated skulls.....
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In case you did not receive anything for Christmas:
Mordheim Pit Fighter Rules
https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1432916976630.pdf
Primus Palus
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.com/2017/02/primus-palus-gladiator-rules-free-to.html
Printable Paper Gladiators
https://juniorgeneral.org/index.php/figure/view/RomanGladiators
Wargame Vault has several free and "pay what you want" gladiator rule sets.
https://www.wargamevault.com/
More Free stuff here:
https://juniorgeneral.org/