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Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: tagalong on December 20, 2020, 07:42:40 AM

Title: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: tagalong on December 20, 2020, 07:42:40 AM
Hi guys have just seen these, wonder if they will do napoleonic.

regards james
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: fred on December 20, 2020, 07:47:24 AM
Interesting - I’m a big fan of 10/12mm figures - so always good to see new products, even if this isn’t my period.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: anch_io on December 20, 2020, 09:20:02 AM
I thought they were 15mm? At least I think I read it somewhere...
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DCRBrown on December 20, 2020, 09:45:38 AM

I believe they are 13.5mm.

DB
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Ninefingers on December 20, 2020, 11:15:48 AM
I believe they are 13.5mm.

DB

So what is now basically 15mm. They really buried the info on what size they are, describing it as 'Epic scale' made me think that it was 6mm.

If I'm being honest, I don't think this announcement sets the world aflame. Plenty of other 15mm manufacturers out there doing ACW, and not in a restrictive strip like these are. Once again Warlord are going the GW route of tying you into their systems.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Arche Seleukeia on December 20, 2020, 11:31:50 AM
Not a fan of the generic infantry used for both sides, unsuitable for most regiments sadly.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: vtsaogames on December 20, 2020, 12:09:09 PM
What does it cost and what do you get?
Each regiment - 100 figures, so basic starter armies are 1200 infantry, 12 guns, 12 officers. You get rules, fences and bases. for 90 pounds.
Throw in a bunch of MDF houeses and the price goes to 171 pounds.
20 pounds gets you 3 regiments, 3 guns and 3 officers.

I'm not going this route as our group already has a goodly number of 15mm ACW figures, though not 100 figures per regiment. At that rate we could field maybe a brigade per side.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 20, 2020, 02:16:22 PM
The figure size sounds like it could be called Epic N's.

I have a ton of 12mm Gordon & Hague plastic ACW figs, which I've pimped up, and by doing a proper flocking of their bases which took way too much time.

These elbow to elbow strips here on Warlord's figs look way better in their tight lines, than many of our single molded figures on individual bases allow - the Epic design in my mind is also enabling pre-flocking of the movement stands, and then just fit "Part A down onto Part B".


Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: nicknorthstar on December 20, 2020, 02:20:46 PM
There's a free frame of the figures on the cover of the new Wargames Illustrated. You can get a copy from me:

https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=15243 (https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=15243)

I'm sure this'll sell out before the end of January, so if you're interested I'd get a copy now. We're closing for Christmas on the 24th as well, so if you want a frame to look over during Christmas order now.

Cheers
Nick

PS I've been having a play with them today
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 20, 2020, 02:30:25 PM
Great tip, Nick!
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: nicknorthstar on December 20, 2020, 03:02:18 PM
Did I say end of January? I think I might sell out of my allocation by the end of today  :o o_o

++Update++
Sold out. I'll see if the wholesaler has more tomorrow.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on December 20, 2020, 05:58:25 PM
So what is now basically 15mm. They really buried the info on what size they are, describing it as 'Epic scale' made me think that it was 6mm.

If I'm being honest, I don't think this announcement sets the world aflame. Plenty of other 15mm manufacturers out there doing ACW, and not in a restrictive strip like these are. Once again Warlord are going the GW route of tying you into their systems.

They are 13.5mm feet-to-eyes, or 15mm feet-to-crown-of-head. The former is a bit shorter than the currently popular 15mm feet-to-eyes.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Cubs on December 20, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
It's odd to choose the shoulder-to-shoulder join for ACW, since I thought they nearly always deployed in open order to fight when close to the enemy? Maybe this is just the standard abstraction for moving battalions around in big battles.

I do like the aesthetic, but a smaller scale would have been a better idea I think, rather than, as already pointed out, deliberately choosing a scale no-one uses to try to build and capture a market in one swoop. There may be a swing back to larger scaler actions after skirmish being all the rage over the last few years, but this seems neither fish nor fowl.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: tagalong on December 20, 2020, 08:50:33 PM
So not 12mm not 15mm will need to see how they compare scale wise with other manufacturers.

Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Arrigo on December 20, 2020, 09:11:07 PM
Nick, could you be so kind to post a scale comparison with other 15mm?
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: robh on December 20, 2020, 10:58:20 PM
They are 13.5mm feet-to-eyes, or 15mm feet-to-crown-of-head. The former is a bit shorter than the currently popular 15mm feet-to-eyes.

All this "measure to the eye" stuff always complicates and confuses things.  >:(

If these are 15mm tall (true 15s) then they will work with Kriegspieler (now OOP) or Freikorp (very much alive via QRF) figures. Both true proportion, true 15mm ranges.
Also Peter Pig ACW measure out at 15mm tall but are slightly bulkier than the aforementioned makes and probably the Warlord plastics too.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: fairoaks024 on December 20, 2020, 11:02:23 PM
On Facebook someone mentioned that these were a re-issue of Gordon and haig figures. They were supposed to be 12mm models.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Battle Brush Sigur on December 21, 2020, 10:59:38 AM
Wargames Illustrated put up proper comparison pictures on Facebook. :) Seems like they're basically 12mm.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 21, 2020, 02:19:11 PM
Doing a photoshop measurement of the WI pictured stand, it looks like the stand widths may be around 6cm, or maybe the slightly larger 2.5 inches -

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxgzF6xy/Epic-ACW-Stand-Exercise.jpg)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: vtsaogames on December 21, 2020, 05:28:12 PM
Thanks. I was just about to ask how wide the frames are.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Andrew_McGuire on December 21, 2020, 05:42:40 PM
There's a free frame of the figures on the cover of the new Wargames Illustrated. You can get a copy from me:

https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=15243 (https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=15243)

I'm sure this'll sell out before the end of January, so if you're interested I'd get a copy now. We're closing for Christmas on the 24th as well, so if you want a frame to look over during Christmas order now.

Cheers
Nick

PS I've been having a play with them today

Now, those boys are not practicing social distancing. I hope the skirmish line is more responsible. Hmm...there don't seem to be any skirmishers.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: nicknorthstar on December 21, 2020, 07:18:57 PM
Wargames Illustrated took this photo of the new Warlord plastics next to Kallistras 12mm figures.

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132443067_3625268387567864_6867593488017175831_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=bmcuqUo7WWgAX-ZUkgW&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=582c6889bd070c5f0f4e7ccf05d14eb7&oe=6004B3AE)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: nicknorthstar on December 21, 2020, 08:17:48 PM
Some of you will recall my ACW Antietam project a couple of years ago, it's here in the old posts titled my 'New' project. I set about painting the regiments involved in the battle for Bloody Lane at Antietam, and I was pleased with the results I was getting from my quick paint technique on the 28mm figures.

I got a frame of the new Warlord little figures at the weekend, and I wondered if the same technique might work on them.

The results are below.

Did the experiment work? No. It took me HOURS to paint this base of figures.  lol

If I want to get into this Black Powder Epic scale, I'll need a different way of painting the figures.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 21, 2020, 08:57:37 PM
Nick, you primer the Union lt. - blue, and the Rebs white or grey (or just flat clear spray the grey plastic so washes have some surface tension - *stiction*).

Next you use Army Painter blue tone for the Yankee coats, and AP Soft and Strong tones for the Confederate clothing - the shading occurs when the tone collects in the sculpted recesses.  All Army Painter tones can be further diluted with their own Mixing Medium, but I prefer Vallejo Glaze Medium to do this - so, for a lighter blue wash on the Yankee sky-blue trousers (try 3,4,5, or 6 drops glaze to 1 drop blue tone - you can always apply additional intensifying coats).  Btw, the Glaze Medium requires an 'overnight' drying - that's when it's migrating to the recesses and 'pin washing" all by itself.

Next you use a black, fine tip permanent maker pen to do all the leather strapping.

Final detailing with the flesh (tone wash this with AP Flesh), and finish the rifles, canteens, etc.

I always dry-brush white to catch the sculpted highlights, and you'll get that feedback effect at tabletop viewing distances.

This is also how I paint 28s, but I'm really not painting for posting pictures online, but rather for getting acceptable looking troops onto the tabletop afterall.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkRLrDvt/Speed-Painting.jpg)

So we can pursue the techniques of "painting by the numbers", and/or with skillful layering, or one can do much of this in one pass, with having paint washes go where the sculpting says it should flow to.

Finished these Pendraken 10mm Soviet 76s crews up today, using this same wash technique, and on these the only detail painting was to the flesh areas and the boots (this speed painting style works for most game scales).

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQ4fS35n/Speed-Painting-10s.jpg)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: vtsaogames on December 21, 2020, 09:19:56 PM
It's odd to choose the shoulder-to-shoulder join for ACW, since I thought they nearly always deployed in open order to fight when close to the enemy? Maybe this is just the standard abstraction for moving battalions around in big battles.

Regardless of what some rules say, the standard infantry formation for both sides was two rank deep, shoulder to shoulder. Both sides used skirmish lines ahead like antennae and in rugged terrain lines might dissolve. Lines would often not be parade ground straight. One account of a Union regiment has them run across a bullet-swept area in no formation at all but then rest and reform in dead ground before continuing their attack in close order line. Emory Upton, the bright young man of the Union army wrote the new drill manual after the war. He prescribed two rank shoulder to shoulder battle line as the standard formation. Once Army brass recognized that muzzle-loaders were seen as obsolete, drill changed. But the standard infantry formation during the ACW was close order line, with some use of columns.

Out west, both sides often went prone during firefights, but were still packed close together.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Littlearmies on December 21, 2020, 11:40:12 PM
To be honest I don't see much "Epic" about this - the strips are an okay idea but I don't see old school 15mm as really "epic". And I'm all for big battalion gaming but 100 figure regiments seem a bit absurd - regimental frontage is going to be 25-30cm. There's not going to be much room for manoeuvre on a 6x4 table is there? Anything more than a couple of brigades per side and it will just be a slugfest - so presumably Warlord are depending on the club buyers. And given the size of the strips you can't use them for any other ruleset without hacking them apart at the elbows. 
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 22, 2020, 03:50:51 PM
I REALLY like this idea.

I think they started with the ACW because they'd only need to make one plastic sprue to start with.

The figures look like they'd mix fine with Kallistra's on the table, as long as they are in segregated units.

They are obviously trying to maintain Black Powder's rules as they are, so that's why the frontage is what it is. However, if you do a wee bit of kit bashing, you can make 3 bases the Standard size and play halving the measurement scale. This will still give you 60 figure units, which is pretty epic, by anyone's standards.

It you REALLY want to go nuts, a bit of cutting and modding on the command stand and you can have 40 figure two stand units and play BP with centimeters swapped out for inches. Unit frontages will be 12cm versus 30cm or 2.5 times smaller: almost a perfect fit.

Note that a couple of the castings have soldiers in the middle with left shouldered muskets, so transforming these into flag bearers should be easy.

As for cutting the stands... look, I'm no master when it comes to kitbashing and I ROUTINELY cut 3mm stands in metal. I can't conceive that doing the same with these, in plastic, would be too much more difficult. Maybe one would have to use a bit of green stuff here and there.

Me, I plan to go the two stand route and use the banner stand as printed to signify elite units. IT will be flanked by two half stands. So I will only have to do "serious" chop and conversion work on one stand out of five.

120 USD for 2400 minis? At two stands a unit, that's 60 regiments, with a normal 6x4 table being translated at centimeter scale to the equivalent of 15x10 feet. That is pretty epic, anyway you cut it. AND 40 figure units, as well.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: sakura11 on December 22, 2020, 04:33:20 PM
I asked warlord if they would be doing separate command packs. The answer was a qualified yes in the future. Having regiments of 20 plus command would make large battles feasible and exciting.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: vtsaogames on December 23, 2020, 12:26:50 AM
Gotta say 100 figure units is tempting, even if that means using just a brigade or two per side. Good thing I'm stranded up in Maine and away from my paints and such. get thee behind me, Satan... and they don't have cavalry yet.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 23, 2020, 12:59:58 PM
Today, Warlord has previewed additional figures prepared for the range -

(https://i.postimg.cc/QC79zxWS/Warlord-Epic-ACW-Support.jpg)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 23, 2020, 01:40:10 PM
Oh, those evil, evil bastards.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 23, 2020, 02:02:45 PM
Oh, those evil, evil bastards.
I've heard their marketing department uses algorithms.  lol
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Calimero on December 23, 2020, 06:20:36 PM
I just ordered a copy of WI to see what the figures look like in the flesh…

What piqued my curiosity the most amongst all the fuzz about this release, what a small comparison pic in a link from Warlords' latest newsletter showing their epic scale minis alongside an "existing 28mm figures from our Black Powder range" …

Now, this figure is definitely an OOP Forgotten & Glorious mini… I really hope they bring back these figures in 2021 ::)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on December 23, 2020, 06:35:58 PM
If they sell command strips separately, they will get me for sure.

Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Arche Seleukeia on December 23, 2020, 09:49:33 PM
I just ordered a copy of WI to see what the figures look like in the flesh…

What piqued my curiosity the most amongst all the fuzz about this release, what a small comparison pic in a link from Warlords' latest newsletter showing their epic scale minis alongside an "existing 28mm figures from our Black Powder range" …

Now, this figure is definitely an OOP Forgotten & Glorious mini… I really hope they bring back these figures in 2021 ::)
I spoke to the former owner of Forgotten and Glorious, Warlord bought his ACW moulds and will re-release them. They will expand it with new miniatures by other sculptors. Focus on the early war.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 24, 2020, 11:14:07 PM
Apparently, epic scale will already use 1/2 inch instead of inch measurements. So reducing regiments to three instead of five stands will easily allow one to play Black Powder by swapping inches for centimeters.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: joroas on December 24, 2020, 11:38:43 PM
I just got my sprue today, artillery, infantry and general in one block. Headgear is a mix of kepi and hat but there is only one command stand which means 5 base regiments.  On the plus side, the figures are only attached at the shoulders on each rank so they will be easy to paint while attached.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 25, 2020, 12:15:57 AM
Pretty easy to mod a few rifle carriers to carry flags, I would think.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: bong-67 on December 25, 2020, 04:40:01 PM
I got my free sample frame from Wargames Ilustrated and compared the figs to some 12mm Kallistra figs.  The Kallistra figs are slightly shorter and bulkier but compatible so I think you could make up extra command stands from the Kallistra ACW range.
I'm going to do this because I'm going to base my ACW armies as 4 bases for a large unit, three for a standard unit, two for a small unit and one for a tiny one.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 25, 2020, 05:58:57 PM
Plenty of information on this podcast that's not available elsewhere, including a very heavy hint that the next epic scale game might be English Civil War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V59Uvclxb2w
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: pixelgeek on December 25, 2020, 06:22:53 PM
Plenty of information on this podcast that's not available elsewhere, including a very heavy hint that the next epic scale game might be English Civil War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V59Uvclxb2w

Just bouncing from one period I don't care about to another.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: FlyXwire on December 25, 2020, 09:20:48 PM
Macunaima,

Thanks for that podcast link (I hope they do ECW next).
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Ninefingers on December 26, 2020, 01:00:48 PM
Plenty of information on this podcast that's not available elsewhere, including a very heavy hint that the next epic scale game might be English Civil War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V59Uvclxb2w

This is slightly more encouraging news than ACW.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: delbruck on December 26, 2020, 06:12:32 PM
Could someone who has received  the WI sprues please confirm the base size(s)?
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Leftblank on December 27, 2020, 09:23:12 AM
I reviewed the set in my blog. Full blog here: https://amsterdamwar.game.blog/2020/12/27/epic-acw-is-a-marketing-project-not-a-new-wargame-scale/ (https://amsterdamwar.game.blog/2020/12/27/epic-acw-is-a-marketing-project-not-a-new-wargame-scale/)
I regard it as a bargain starter set for the American market.

Summary:
In the last week of 2020 Warlord Games announced their new project: Epic ACW. Some European wargamers were happy, others disappointed – why this weird 13,5mm scale? I think it’s marketing. Warlord is trying to enter the American market with a boxed set that is relatively cheaper, more complete but not necessarily more compatible. Find a new market share with a new game with toy soldiers. It’s not their only attempt to win the west.
(...) on a grand table at arm’s length, would you really spot the difference, even if you mount the Warlord miniatures on slightly thicker bases? I suppose not. Stop whining.(...) The relative price is a bargain (...) This is a cheap big battle starter box for the 30-something American miniature gamer who is slowly losing interest in fantasy / SF and want to explore historical gaming. I see more attempts from Warlord to enter the American market (...) In that regard, full compatibility of the ACW range with existing UK metal manufacturers is unimportant for the USA customer. A slight incompatibility might be even advantageous – it’s a unique selling point for your own store chain.



Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: fairoaks024 on December 27, 2020, 12:40:49 PM
I got my free sprue, only painted the officer and the cannon so far, but they are lovely models.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Calimero on December 27, 2020, 05:39:38 PM
I reviewed the set in my blog. Full blog here: https://amsterdamwar.game.blog/2020/12/27/epic-acw-is-a-marketing-project-not-a-new-wargame-scale/ (https://amsterdamwar.game.blog/2020/12/27/epic-acw-is-a-marketing-project-not-a-new-wargame-scale/)

"Now Warlord, that bought the Forgotten & Glorious ACW range and recast them as 13,5 plastic..."


 ???
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Norm on December 28, 2020, 05:13:45 AM
Fairoaks, thanks for the lovely samples.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: delbruck on December 28, 2020, 12:55:44 PM
I like the concept of the 10 figure close order strips, but I am a little lost understanding the logic of Warlord's regimental organization. It appears a regiment is supposed to consist of five stands, each about 60mm's wide. This gives the unit a frontage of 300mm when in line. The normal frontage of a 28mm unit in Black Powder is 200-250mm. This means that the epic scale either requires a larger table or fewer units. A lot of the discussion I have seen implies the epic scale is a solution to the large tables required by 28mm armies, but the opposite seems to be true.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: has.been on December 28, 2020, 01:18:18 PM
Some time ago I visited the Army Museum in London (UK).
In a display case was a representation of a company, British
army of the 1660s. They used Dixon figures (Chunky 25mm)
It was about three foot (one meter) wide, but only 2 or 3 figures deep.
Us wargamers don't half mess about with scales & base sizes.
By the way it had over a hundred figures, of which only eight had pikes
& two flags. Compare that with a 'standard' wargaming version:
20 or so figures, 2 flags & 4 to 6 pikemen.
 
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Gibby on December 28, 2020, 01:47:23 PM
I like the concept of the 10 figure close order strips, but I am a little lost understanding the logic of Warlord's regimental organization. It appears a regiment is supposed to consist of five stands, each about 60mm's wide. This gives the unit a frontage of 300mm when in line. The normal frontage of a 28mm unit in Black Powder is 200-250mm. This means that the epic scale either requires a larger table or fewer units. A lot of the discussion I have seen implies the epic scale is a solution to the large tables required by 28mm armies, but the opposite seems to be true.

This is what baffles me the most. From what I've seen, this seems to be epic in the sense that there are loads of troops, but with frontages like that, how big are your battles going to be on the average 6x4 table?
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Sterling Moose on December 28, 2020, 01:54:08 PM
Quote
I got my free sprue, only painted the officer and the cannon so far, but they are lovely models.

How do they look from 2 feet?
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: fairoaks024 on December 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Fairoaks, thanks for the lovely samples.
Cheers norm!

@sterling moose, they look excellent at normal wargaming distance, I’ve plonked them on the table and stood back and like them at that distance. Sort of a shame really, as I really d9nt need to start up another scale, but will be doing more of these.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DivisMal on December 28, 2020, 08:27:16 PM
Those samples look excellent! I’m eager now to try it.

@ discussion about table size: the same was true with Games Workshop‘s venture into a similar scale (=Warmaster/10mm). The reason behind both systems is that they are still commercial and therefore the producer hopes to sell many, many models.

Now offering a ruleset where you only ever need one basic set is probably no giving you a good profit, certainly not compared to persuading people to buy thousands of these models to field the battles of the ACW in 1:1.

Nothing is stopping me though from just building smaller units.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 28, 2020, 09:26:12 PM
Two or three stand units seem to be the way to go here. However, supposedly the game will already BE at half scale, which puzzles me, too, given that the epic regiments actually have a larger footprint than the normal regiments.

Of course, you could say each regiment was a brigade and play at half scale...
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Radar on December 29, 2020, 08:35:37 AM
Mac - thanks for the podcast link. Unfortunately due to my hearing impairment and the podcast sound quality I gave up after two minutes. Roughly where abouts do they hint at ECW?
I have 1000s of Peter Pig ECW figures so not really interested in the figures, I'm more excited at the possibilities that Warlord will add with 'extras' - in particular buildings.

I must confess that the first time I saw the advert for the starter set I was transported back to the late 70s reading imported US comics (Flintstones I think) and seeing line drawing adverts for foot lockers filled with 1000s of ACW figures all for some ridiculously cheap price.

As for the idea, I think it is pretty good. As a smaller sized figure fan i do wonder, could this be a turning point for the magazines which have been very 28mmcentric for so long?

As for the OP's question - will they venture into Napoleonics? I would be surprised if they do, too many visually different troop types = lots of moulds. With both the ECW and ACW the bulk of figures are going to be the same on both sides. Smaller numbers of more unique figures can then be produced more cost effectively in metal, as with the main Warlord 28mm ranges.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 29, 2020, 01:18:43 PM
I couldn’t really tell you where, Radar. About halfway through, IIRC. The comments are basically these:

1) There will DEFINITELY be new epic lines. This is not a one-off.

2) The head of the epic project is a HUGE ECW fan.

3) ECW has enormous appeal in England.

4) The head of the American project would thus not at all be surprised if ECW was the next line,

And, although it is not mentioned, the ECW, like the ACW, is one of those wars where a BASIC army can be represented on a sprue or two - both sides. They’d definitely need to put out two different sprues — one pike and shot and the other cavalry — but they wouldn’t need more than that to begin with. Specialized units can be resin or metal cast or — if there is enough demand — put into brigade boxes.

Regarding Napoleonics, I think they are in no hurry, but will get there. It’s the mold-making that costs for plastics.

I think their production model may be this:

1) Start small with a war that needs only one sprue for basic gaming. The ACW is perfect for this. See how the line goes.

2) Do the next set with TWO sprues from the profits from the first. ECW would be perfect for this. See how that line goes.

3) - ? New sets with two or three sprues each. War of the Roses was also mentioned and would be a good choice.

X) Napoleonics set in 1813. How many sprues would you REALISTICALLY need for a basic battle? Shako infantry. Shako cavalry. 6 pounder cannons. Officers. Shako skirmishers. MAYBE another kind of generic cavalry — say helmeted dragoons or hussars.

So for Napoleonics we’re talking four different types of sprues in the basic game. If they want to be even simpler, they could do it in two: infantry/artillery and cavalry.

Or they could go to the Penninsula: French infantry, artillery and cavalry on one sprue; British on the other. Portuguese as a quick launch.

The commercial model here seems to be to charge peanuts for the basic game and then soak the completists on the brigade boxes — which will still be competitively priced over metals or resin printing. This is the model they used with Black Seas, which was much more successful than Cruel Seas.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Cubs on December 29, 2020, 01:35:46 PM
Unfortunately, past form doesn't bode well for those waiting for Warlord to fully support this. Their previous outings away from Bolt Action after buying up a range suggest they'll bring out the odd set or two, promise future expansions to get people to buy, then ditch it when the money slows. Sounds cynical I know, but it's just what I'd bet on, given what they've done in the past. I hope I'm wrong, for the sake of those who are interested in it.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Radar on December 29, 2020, 02:06:53 PM
Thanks for that Mac
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: robh on December 29, 2020, 02:07:07 PM
........they'll bring out the odd set or two, promise future expansions to get people to buy, then ditch it when the money slows.......

Absolutely.
Warlord will not support this in the long run, the cost of maintaining an extended new release schedule for the inevitable diminishing number of buyers does not fit their sales policy.
Warlord are all about the initial "new shiny" burst of enthusiastic new purchasers; as much as they can get, from as many new buyers as possible, in as short a space of time. Then move on to the next new thing.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Norm on December 29, 2020, 02:40:28 PM
I think it will get supported.

Firstly, ACW does not particularly need a lot of support and secondly, if they see this as being something to roll out across several different periods to support their rule sets, they will want the first product to succeed.  This has the potential to be big.

I am guessing we might be staggered if we knew what the pre-order numbers were already and by that I mean, this was a non-market for them just two weeks ago, so all sales are new territory.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Ray Rivers on December 29, 2020, 03:36:54 PM
(http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=128677.0;attach=138659;image)
I got my free sprue, only painted the officer and the cannon so far, but they are lovely models.

Yikes! Those look far better than I expected!

Warlord will not support this in the long run, the cost of maintaining an extended new release schedule for the inevitable diminishing number of buyers does not fit their sales policy.

What more do they need to release? John Stallard from Warlord Games has already mentioned cavalry, skirmishers, horse holders, Iron Brigade and Zouaves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0-fIaiec6k

Includes terrain and rules all in one box.  o_o
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Ray Rivers on December 29, 2020, 04:05:20 PM
I like the concept of the 10 figure close order strips, but I am a little lost understanding the logic of Warlord's regimental organization. It appears a regiment is supposed to consist of five stands, each about 60mm's wide. This gives the unit a frontage of 300mm when in line. The normal frontage of a 28mm unit in Black Powder is 200-250mm. This means that the epic scale either requires a larger table or fewer units. A lot of the discussion I have seen implies the epic scale is a solution to the large tables required by 28mm armies, but the opposite seems to be true.

Personally, I would go with 3 stands per regiment which means you could double the amount of regiments from 10 to 20. I would certainly want a command sprue to be offered before I even thought about buying these... Good god where would I find the time to paint them?

Here is a link to painting the sprues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZNgX3-8zhc

I think I would paint the minis right on the sprues and then clip them off when finished.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 29, 2020, 06:17:48 PM
Absolutely.
Warlord will not support this in the long run, the cost of maintaining an extended new release schedule for the inevitable diminishing number of buyers does not fit their sales policy.
Warlord are all about the initial "new shiny" burst of enthusiastic new purchasers; as much as they can get, from as many new buyers as possible, in as short a space of time. Then move on to the next new thing.

Well, if you're expecting every kind of ACW figure possible in plastic, no, that won't happen.

I do think we'll definitely get cavalry, rifled artillery, and skirmishers/dismounted cavalry at the very least. That will be enough for most people. Maybe we'll see some specific famous brigades: the Iron Brigade, the Texas Brigade, etc. in metal or plastic. And then, yeah, they'll probably move on. They're not aiming at the completist gamer who absolutely NEEDS, say, 80 gun ships of the line for Black Seas.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on December 29, 2020, 06:20:31 PM
Quote from: Ray Rivers
Personally, I would go with 3 stands per regiment which means you could double the amount of regiments from 10 to 20. I would certainly want a command sprue to be offered before I even thought about buying these... Good god where would I find the time to paint them?

I will go with three stands per regiment. I don't think it'll be very hard to modify a trooper or two to carry a flag -- particularly in plastic.

Another thing I might do is make command STANDS out of Kallistra figures: 4 figs on a 25mm x 25mm base, perhaps with a mounted officer. That would allow me to make bog-standard infantry stands for any number of systems.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DivisMal on December 29, 2020, 06:53:39 PM
Unfortunately, past form doesn't bode well for those waiting for Warlord to fully support this. Their previous outings away from Bolt Action after buying up a range suggest they'll bring out the odd set or two, promise future expansions to get people to buy, then ditch it when the money slows. Sounds cynical I know, but it's just what I'd bet on, given what they've done in the past. I hope I'm wrong, for the sake of those who are interested in it.

While this isn’t really wrong (especially for their trips into fiction/sf) I‘d say with most historical systems supported by Warlords the support is actually quite okay. I mean, you cannot expect a GW/Corvus Belli kind of support with new models appearing regularly, but Warlord have churned out quite a lot of Napoleonics, Ancients and ECW models to be more than happy. Even very rare models, like Wallenstein‘s bodyguard made an appearance (or Sharpe‘s rifles) which most people will need once per army - if at all.

If this will be tru for Epic battles, I‘ll be happy because as with their other model lines I can buy extras with other manufacturers (Kallistra in this case).

Furthermore at that scale, the paintjob might be more than enough to distinguish specific regiments like the Iron Brigade.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DivisMal on December 29, 2020, 06:54:49 PM
I will go with three stands per regiment. I don't think it'll be very hard to modify a trooper or two to carry a flag -- particularly in plastic.

Another thing I might do is make command STANDS out of Kallistra figures: 4 figs on a 25mm x 25mm base, perhaps with a mounted officer. That would allow me to make bog-standard infantry stands for any number of systems.

Pretty good idea. That’s how we made our 25mm armies in the day when Games Workshop and Grenadier introduced cheap monopose plastics.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Harry Faversham on January 01, 2021, 10:23:13 AM
I've got a sprue of 'em from this month's WI magazine, very nice they are too, the artillery is very well thought out and elegant. 

:)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Pictors Studio on January 03, 2021, 04:06:54 AM
I've never been interested in doing ACW land stuff.  I have fleets for Plum Point Bend and the Battle of Nashville, but never any land stuff. 

This has me interested.  I'm getting the magazine so we'll see how the test sprue goes.  After that, if I like painting them, I will probably get the big box.  No hurry, but it is likely that if I do it, I get the figures before the end of the year.  Then I'll probably do Chickamauga. 
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DivisMal on January 03, 2021, 09:44:27 AM
In a way they‘ve really been able to speak to a new kind of customers. Never been interested in ACW here, but the box and the discussion about it, made me read Killer Angels at the moment.
The big plus will be that the investment is okay from mho and the availability will be good. I got Warlord‘s Black Sea from my wife this Christmas and the same formula worked brilliantly here. I got everything in a box to build and rig two smallnavies and several local shops carry the line.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on January 03, 2021, 03:02:50 PM
I just got a wild idea that I am going to test out with my free WI sprue, when it finally manages to wend it's way down to Rio de Janeiro.

I've always toyed with the idea of doing an imagiNations late 19th century project, something like the American Civil War, only on steroids. Something which allows the CSA stand-in to have more of an industrial base, which would allow for ironclad fleet actions. Possibly a rationale for some heavy cavalry. Kallistra WW1 early war French Dragoons would be perfect. Certainly a rationale to paint more colorful uniforms, allowing one to field, say, entire brigades of Zouaves on both sides.

Seeing as how I already have a 3mm ACW historical set up to scratch my Black Powder epic itch, this might be the way I go. I may even just do the armies up in "regulation" blue and gray so they can be used as ACW armies in a pinch, but add on some gaudy, colorful, ahistoric special units like the above-mentioned cavalry and what not.

The imagiNations could be based on a North America analogue, but with the Great Lakes set in, say, the Mississippi basin, giving scope for some really cracking naval actions using late 19th century ironclads.

I mean, at these prices, why not? Black Powder is for old school fun games, anyhow, and what could be more fun (at least on the tabletop) than a nitrous oxide-injected ACW?
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: nicknorthstar on January 03, 2021, 03:20:45 PM
With a bit of imagination and creativity you could use these for the War of the Triple Alliance.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZynjhS5RrVg/V1XvRTunV0I/AAAAAAAANOU/XfaxaihrIPIOTgDxvjU8OJqcG7EHvAvPACLcB/s1600/017-desdembarco-del-ejercito-argentino-frente-a-las-trincheras-de-curuzu_8094840029_o.jpg)

Not so much for the figures, they would just be in different paint jobs to the ACW, but more the chance to model different tabletops.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zTrCux2j_mM/V1Xuk5VF07I/AAAAAAAANM8/dFhR6q33paELCM4K1hls41wrRmPm0LYtgCLcB/s1600/012-detalle-asalto-a-la-primera-columna-brasilea_8094880494_o.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vls62bM0OCM/V1XwIc_gQUI/AAAAAAAANP4/6vI8EfKBvhQ7PRMTHyW-zAeYVJl2tAYaACLcB/s1600/04-invernada-del-ejercito-oriental-5-de-abril-de-1866_8094801478_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DivisMal on January 03, 2021, 07:49:11 PM
I just got a wild idea that I am going to test out with my free WI sprue, when it finally manages to wend it's way down to Rio de Janeiro.

I've always toyed with the idea of doing an imagiNations late 19th century project, something like the American Civil War, only on steroids. Something which allows the CSA stand-in to have more of an industrial base, which would allow for ironclad fleet actions. Possibly a rationale for some heavy cavalry. Kallistra WW1 early war French Dragoons would be perfect. Certainly a rationale to paint more colorful uniforms, allowing one to field, say, entire brigades of Zouaves on both sides.

Seeing as how I already have a 3mm ACW historical set up to scratch my Black Powder epic itch, this might be the way I go. I may even just do the armies up in "regulation" blue and gray so they can be used as ACW armies in a pinch, but add on some gaudy, colorful, ahistoric special units like the above-mentioned cavalry and what not.

The imagiNations could be based on a North America analogue, but with the Great Lakes set in, say, the Mississippi basin, giving scope for some really cracking naval actions using late 19th century ironclads.

I mean, at these prices, why not? Black Powder is for old school fun games, anyhow, and what could be more fun (at least on the tabletop) than a nitrogen-injected ACW?

That’s actually a pretty neat idea. And you could also do weird steampunk things and imagiNations on Mars.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on January 03, 2021, 10:22:05 PM
With a bit of imagination and creativity you could use these for the War of the Triple Alliance.

You could easily use them for Triple Alliance forces. The problem would be the Paraguayans, who had markedly different uniforms (high shako-style kepis and no shoes, to begin with).

But as for new battlefields... I'm Brazilian, Nick. If I do the Paraguayan War (as it's known here), I'll go historical.

That aside, there really weren't too many battles in the war that were very different from those of the ACW. Tuiutí was basically Shiloh with less tree cover and more swamps. Humaitá was basically Frederickburg in wetlands. Lomas Valentinas was similar to Lookout Mountain. The whole river campaign was very reminiscent of the Vicksburg campaign.

Certainly, it gives one different styles of terrain to fight over. A chance to paint a lot of red laterite soil for one.

Personally, what I'd like is a chance to pit two early ironclad navies in squadron battles on something like the Great Lakes. And for land battles, an excuse for heavy cavalry to make an appearance.

Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on January 03, 2021, 10:32:18 PM
That’s actually a pretty neat idea. And you could also do weird steampunk things and imagiNations on Mars.

It would also give one an excuse to paint up A LOT of red soil. More than with Paraguay, even. :D
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 04, 2021, 02:40:30 PM
This is a very interesting recent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiSw5rfDqwo

The guy covers:

- How he painted the minis.
- Unit size (and variations due to different rules)
- Compatibility with Kallistra minis (he has a Kallistra command group for one stand)
- How easy it is to convert the minis to wearing all kepis (liked that!)
- How fun it is to play Ultimate General Civil War (which I am also doing right now)  ;)
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: olicana on January 05, 2021, 11:47:19 AM
Quote
As for the idea, I think it is pretty good. As a smaller sized figure fan i do wonder, could this be a turning point for the magazines which have been very 28mmcentric for so long?

28mm look better in photographs, close up or from a distance. Pictures sell magazines as much as written content. Also true of glossy rule sets to some degree. Sad but, true.

I like the idea of this scale for this period, none the less. I've always wanted to do ACW but I don't have the storage space for the period specific mid 19th century American terrain pieces required (for a 12 x 6 table) in 28mm (my usual scale). My project list is full for the next two or three years: hopefully then, we'll see what actually got done for this range of figures - so, maybe.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Harry Faversham on January 05, 2021, 12:39:14 PM
;) Leave it Big O, just leave it!  ;)

Gettysburg in one to one scale is just not possible...
even for you!

:o
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: delbruck on January 05, 2021, 01:40:00 PM
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is that Warlord has stated that any support figures for the range will be done in Warlord resin.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: DivisMal on January 05, 2021, 07:07:48 PM
This is a very interesting recent video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiSw5rfDqwo

The guy covers:

- How he painted the minis.
- Unit size (and variations due to different rules)
- Compatibility with Kallistra minis (he has a Kallistra command group for one stand)
- How easy it is to convert the minis to wearing all kepis (liked that!)
- How fun it is to play Ultimate General Civil War (which I am also doing right now)  ;)

That was actually a lot of fun to watch. Makes me really keen to get a few sprues myself.
Title: Re: Warlord games epic battles 12mm acw
Post by: Macunaima on January 06, 2021, 01:51:27 PM
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is that Warlord has stated that any support figures for the range will be done in Warlord resin.

Have they actually formally said that, or was that just a one off in a video on the internet? Because I think cavalry is pretty much a sure thing for plastic. Of course, I could be wrong: one doesn't need much cavalry for ACW battlefields and it could thus make sense to do it in resin.

What I'd like to see in plastic is a "clean" federal regiment, paired with a Confederate-style officer and a Parrot rifle. THAT might make economic sense.

But zouaves and the iron brigade and so on should certainly be done in resin or metal.