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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Pijlie on December 21, 2020, 08:10:48 AM
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While the Oathmark rulebooks are actually written quite well, after about a dozen games or so some questions remain and several other ones tend to pop up on a regular basis.
Mind you, I know we can houserule anything. This is an attempt to get as close to the Author's intentions as possible.
So I thought it would be a good thing to try and bundle them into one thread like the Frostgrave one (although I would hope it remains rather a bit shorter). Hoping for support from the Hive, here we go.
Let's start with the Errata insofar as we have been able to get the Author to confirm them:
P44 - The covered sentence should read as follow: 'You must also move any other units that are in the way, just as with regular combat.'
P?? – The cost for Dwarf Spellcasters should be the same as those for humans.
P95 - Barghest have "Wild Charge (1)". It should be just "Wild Charge" without the "(1)".
P112 - Giants should have the "Enormous" special ability. Add it to the special abilities listed for them.
P116 - Elf Champions should have the "Shielding (1)" special ability. Add it to the special abilities listed for them.
P126 - Wulver should have "Regenerate (1)" and not just "Regenerate". Add the "(1)" after the word "Regenerate" in their special abilities.
P138 - Orc Soldier have "Wild Charge (1)". It should be just "Wild Charge" without the "(1)".
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And then a bunch of questions in a separate answer (for clarity) that have been answered so far (from the FAQ in the Oathmark Player Facebook page):
Q: Units-of-one: they get a free maneuver during enemy's activation until
themselves activated. During their activation do they maneuver as all other units?
A: Yes
Q: How many magic items can a hero use/equip?
A: There is no limit.
Q: When moving units to make room for others (e.g. when another unit is moving to
combat and needs room) does "backwards" mean backwards in regard to their own
position or the position of the active unit? Can a unit be moved multiple times like
this? It can take it noticeably away from its original position.
A: Backwards is always determined from the unit being moved. So straight to that unit’s
rear.
Q: Units-of-one: what does "no modifiers" to morale check mean? No modifiers
from the table (for ranks, losses etc.)? I suppose it does not mean no changes at all
- this would make Courage trait unusable.
A: From the table. Do apply Courage.
Q: Should not the morale check of big creatures inlude the hits taken? Now it seems
it is irrelevant how many hits a monster takes until dead.
A: Rules as written, do not apply damage to the Morale Check, but feel free to change it if
you think it will improve your games.
Q: Terrain - obstacles: a unit has to pass completely over the obstacle. In some
cases, this means the move is not possible at all if the enemy positions itself to
block it. For example - if a unit stands directly behind a wall, it can be attacked, but
when it stands an inch behind, it cannot be attacked (no place to move). I know I can
flank the enemy or try to shoot it out or sth, but it seems strange anyhow. How to
solve the problem?
A: Just use the rules for Combat Against Units in Defensive works.
Q: Base size - 100x50 means 100 wide and 50 deep or vice versa?
A: 50 wide, 100 deep. Though if you’ve got units based the other way, I’d just play them
that way and not worry too much about it.
Q: Units-of-one: do they count as having 1 rank?
A: Yes
Q: Spellcasters in unit: when does a spellcaster cast his spells when he is a part of
a unit? Do they cast spells when the unit is activated?
If so does it use that units Action? Does a spellcaster, who is part of the unit, use
the units LoS to cast spells?
A: The unit must take a spellcasting action, so the rest of the unit just mills about while the
spellcaster is working his magic. If a spellcaster is part of a unit, it must be in the officer
position, so the line of sight is drawn from it anyway.
Q: Golden String Bow: If hero with Golden String Bow is placed in non-shooting unit
(Human warriors for example) can he still shoot during units activation?
If so, does this takes one action of the unit he is in?
A: Yes, but the whole unit must take a shoot action, so it probably isn’t worth it.
Q: Units-of-one:do they have line of sight like all other units, or they can see all
around, 360 degrees?
A: Line of sight is the same for them as for any other unit.
Q: Is there a minimal size of units? For example I always have to take at least 5
archers or something like that?
A: No, but less than 5 is rarely efficient (and remember you have a maximum of four of any
given type of unit).
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And then some questions I still have left:
1. From what Spell list may a Vampire take its Spells? The list in Oathbreakers seems to be for Necromancers which a Vampire isn't.
2. Should it be possible to Dispel any Spell Effect or must it be targeted at Units? If so, is the permanent effect of location-based Spells like Looking Glass and Smoke intentional?
3. Units-of-one get a free maneuver during enemy's activation until themselves activated. Then during their activation they maneuver as all other units. What's the point of this rule? Can I simply turn the UoO in any direction and then Activate it? Or can I turn it but do I have to Activate another Unit first?
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One question that arose in our first few games: what happens when a unit charges two units in the flank? This might seem unlikely, but with units of monsters, it's a fair possibility - especially if the opposition have archers taking advantage of the Fire Over rule behind infantry units.
The situation that arose for us was that a unit of four ogres was positioned to charge a unit of orc warriors and the unit of orc archers behind them. As the ogre unit's frontage was 200mm, its charge brought into contact with both orc units at once.
That raises a few questions.
First, is it allowed? Given the space on the table and the alignment of the units, there wasn't any feasible way to have the ogres hit just one unit. If they avoided the archers, they'd have hit their own units. If they avoided the orc warriors, they'd have had insufficient move to perform the charge.
Second, how are the dice split? The ogre unit should fight at full strength against the flanked unit, but when there are two flanked units, do you count the ogres as two units?
Third, if you do count the ogres as two units, does that allow them to fight with two lots of five dice? Were it not for the limit of five dice per combat, the ogres would generate 12 dice, so allowing them to fight as two units of two, each with five dice, seems reasonable - but the odd Oathmark combat arithmetic crops up again (why would the ogres cause more damage to two separate units with one or two ranks than they could to one unit with four ranks?)
Any thoughts on this?
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One question that arose in our first few games: what happens when a unit charges two units in the flank? This might seem unlikely, but with units of monsters, it's a fair possibility - especially if the opposition have archers taking advantage of the Fire Over rule behind infantry units.
The situation that arose for us was that a unit of four ogres was positioned to charge a unit of orc warriors and the unit of orc archers behind them. As the ogre unit's frontage was 200mm, its charge brought into contact with both orc units at once.
I cannot answer the first part, but the second has a problem.
If I remember correctly, 50mm x 50mm based figures (that are not monsters) can form up to a maximum of one row of three bases and one rank (so the largest unit of ogres is three figures with a frontage of 150mm).
However this does make the former situation less likely.
If the orc warriors are one rank and the archers are one rank, plus the one inch gap between units gives a contact surface of 62.5mm whereas the ogre's half frontage is 75mm. There is an overlap, but it is not significant.
If the warriors are two ranks, the "contact surface" becomes 75mm, still just in contact. Three ranks and there is no contact with the archers (but they might be deemed within the one inch exclusion zone).
I would guess that the archers should be moved one inch from the ogres.
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And then some questions I still have left:
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3. Units-of-one get a free maneuver during enemy's activation until themselves activated. Then during their activation they maneuver as all other units. What's the point of this rule? Can I simply turn the UoO in any direction and then Activate it? Or can I turn it but do I have to Activate another Unit first?
I think this is to allow a unit of one to turn to face an enemy unit (due to their agility over a formed unit) until they have activated. From that point their facing is fixed until the next activation.
So your King is facing North. If an enemy unit attacks from the south, the king can pivot/wheel (I cannot see the difference for a UoO) to face the attack. This means the king does not suffer the negative effects of being attacked in the rear arc.
However, if the king is facing North and activates (moving further North), he has activated. If he is then attacked from the south, he can no longer manoeuvre and suffers the penalty.
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I think this is to allow a unit of one to turn to face an enemy unit (due to their agility over a formed unit) until they have activated. From that point their facing is fixed until the next activation.
So your King is facing North. If an enemy unit attacks from the south, the king can pivot/wheel (I cannot see the difference for a UoO) to face the attack. This means the king does not suffer the negative effects of being attacked in the rear arc.
However, if the king is facing North and activates (moving further North), he has activated. If he is then attacked from the south, he can no longer manoeuvre and suffers the penalty.
Exactly.
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Great topic!
Some points from myself:
- I know, that the author did confirm the values in the book right, but I still think, that CD1 for Elf Mounted Rangers is not right, as all other mounted units get CD2 (and the elves would be with CD2 still pretty expensive).
- More Magic Items for one character seems to be a bit overpowered for me.
- Monsters would definitely need some morale modifier for the wounds (at least something easy, for example under 50% life points -1, or 2).
- Seems logical, that the Vampire should take spells from the necromant list, but its not definied in the book.
- I think, dispell should be valid for every spell (except heal), but not for other effects (for example poison, but that should be cured with heal...).
- I think the free manouver of a unit of one should be there, to be harder to attack it in the rear and back. It seems logical to me, because why would a unit of one manouver the same way as a real unit?
- In the rulebook (I dont have it with me in work :)), is an example, how to define the charged side of the attacked unit: Where a straght line, drawn from the middle of the attackings units front in prependicular direction to it, hits the attacked unit, that is the charged side, and the attacker should be aligned and centered to it. According to that, its not possible to charge, or be in combat with two units.
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- In the rulebook (I dont have it with me in work :)), is an example, how to define the charged side of the attacked unit: Where a straght line, drawn from the middle of the attackings units front in prependicular direction to it, hits the attacked unit, that is the charged side, and the attacker should be aligned and centered to it. According to that, its not possible to charge, or be in combat with two units.
I agree, it is not possible to be in combat with two units. If you would contact two units, the unit that is not a target moves back to have an inch clearance.
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I cannot answer the first part, but the second has a problem.
If I remember correctly, 50mm x 50mm based figures (that are not monsters) can form up to a maximum of one row of three bases and one rank (so the largest unit of ogres is three figures with a frontage of 150mm).
However this does make the former situation less likely.
Ah - yes, you're right. Just found the reference on p15. I'd completely overlooked it.
If the orc warriors are one rank and the archers are one rank, plus the one inch gap between units gives a contact surface of 62.5mm whereas the ogre's half frontage is 75mm. There is an overlap, but it is not significant.
If the warriors are two ranks, the "contact surface" becomes 75mm, still just in contact. Three ranks and there is no contact with the archers (but they might be deemed within the one inch exclusion zone).
I would guess that the archers should be moved one inch from the ogres.
Yes, after looking at page 34, that's the obvious inference. But what happens if the ogres are charging the archers? And there could be other units both in front and behind the archers, as in the photo below.
By the book, I assume both units of warriors in the photo would shuffle an inch sideways to their right to avoid the ogres. I'd be tempted, though, to rule that each ogre fights one of the contacted units with his full three dice. And I can certainly see situations in which the 1" gap would prevent any of the contacted units from shufflng to avoid contact.
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I agree with Hobgoblin that it is possible, your photograph is a perfect representation of the conundrum. I was going to take some photographs, but that is unnecessary now.
BZ and Ogrob, the issue was units being charged in the flank, front and rear are easy unless you have smaller than full first (and only) rank.
My thought would be that units should recoil except the attacked unit. If they cannot recoil without contacting another unit, then they become disordered after recoiling and the contacted unit has to recoil. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
- Edited having re-read:I agree, it is not possible to be in combat with two units. If you would contact two units, the unit that is not a target moves back to have an inch clearance.
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I agree with Hobgoblin that it is possible, your photograph is a perfect representation of the conundrum. I was going to take some photographs, but that is unnecessary now.
BZ and Ogrob, the issue was units being charged in the flank, front and rear are easy unless you have smaller than full first (and only) rank.
My thought would be that units should recoil except the attacked unit. If they cannot recoil without contacting another unit, then they become disordered after recoiling and the contacted unit has to recoil. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
Yes, you could have a situation where you contact multiple units, but you can only charge and be in combat with one unit at a time. Other units move to make room for the combat. This seems really clear to me since there are rules for moving other units out of the way of a combat, but if you disagree I am not going to argue further.
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I agree, it is not possible to be in combat with two units. If you would contact two units, the unit that is not a target moves back to have an inch clearance.
Sorry, I agree with you. It is only the effect of the recoil that I was thinking out loud about.
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I agree, it is not possible to be in combat with two units. If you would contact two units, the unit that is not a target moves back to have an inch clearance.
Yeah, I cannot interpret the rules in other ways. There can be some difficult situations in dense areas, but then I would use smaller (or no) clearance. The position of the opposing units should clearly show the situation.
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Yeah, I cannot interpret the rules in other ways. There can be some difficult situations in dense areas, but then I would use smaller (or no) clearance. The position of the opposing units should clearly show the situation.
I think there is another good reason to stick with the rule that you can only charge one enemy unit. Oathmark is not very fussy regarding base size. This can only work when neither of the players can exploit larger or smaller bases. If you would use base as the determining factor of being able to charge more than one unit, base size would become an issue, while under the current rules it is not.
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I think this is to allow a unit of one to turn to face an enemy unit (due to their agility over a formed unit) until they have activated. From that point their facing is fixed until the next activation.
So your King is facing North. If an enemy unit attacks from the south, the king can pivot/wheel (I cannot see the difference for a UoO) to face the attack. This means the king does not suffer the negative effects of being attacked in the rear arc.
However, if the king is facing North and activates (moving further North), he has activated. If he is then attacked from the south, he can no longer manoeuvre and suffers the penalty.
It just seems to me a pointless rule. If I can turn a Unit-of-One in any direction during my opponents Activation, what's to stop me from -while thinking about which unit to Activate- turning my Unit-of-One in the desired direction, then activate it and get it to move in the desired direction. What does "during my opponents Activation" even mean? As long as he is rolling dice or moving figures?
Why not simply give a Unit-of-One a free turn?
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It just seems to me a pointless rule. If I can turn a Unit-of-One in any direction during my opponents Activation, what's to stop me from -while thinking about which unit to Activate- turning my Unit-of-One in the desired direction, then activate it and get it to move in the desired direction. What does "during my opponents Activation" even mean? As long as he is rolling dice or moving figures?
Why not simply give a Unit-of-One a free turn?
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Nothing, this is legitimate. However, once activated, it can not free manouver until the next game turn.
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I think there is another good reason to stick with the rule that you can only charge one enemy unit. Oathmark is not very fussy regarding base size. This can only work when neither of the players can exploit larger or smaller bases. If you would use base as the determining factor of being able to charge more than one unit, base size would become an issue, while under the current rules it is not.
Absolutely right!
It just seems to me a pointless rule. If I can turn a Unit-of-One in any direction during my opponents Activation, what's to stop me from -while thinking about which unit to Activate- turning my Unit-of-One in the desired direction, then activate it and get it to move in the desired direction. What does "during my opponents Activation" even mean? As long as he is rolling dice or moving figures?
Why not simply give a Unit-of-One a free turn?
It is basically a free turn (or maneuver), but so, that it can react to the first enemy attack (but only before its own activation). Youre right however, that its not defined when it is allowed while the enemy activation. But maybe it should be read so, that as soon, as the enemy activates a unit, but before it states, what actions it will use.
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It is basically a free turn (or maneuver), but so, that it can react to the first enemy attack (but only before its own activation). Youre right however, that its not defined when it is allowed while the enemy activation. But maybe it should be read so, that as soon, as the enemy activates a unit, but before it states, what actions it will use.
Having just re-read the rule (page 28) it says "including other unit's activation" - this means that a unit of one can turn at any point in the game up to its activation - (see later for an additional wrinkle).
I have to admit to thinking that during "another unit's activation" a unit of one can manoeuvre does define when it can manoeuvre - literally at any point in the opponent's activation (unfortunately I now have a track playing in my head by "Dead or Alive" complete with a music video including a Unit of One spinning "... right round baby, like a record baby, right round, right round...").
You do also make a good point as to it being a manoeuvre (use of the word "turn" could cause confusion).
The only "rules lawyer" issue would be whether they could react (ie pivot) if they were declared the target of a shooting attack. Read as written, I would say yes.
It just seems to me a pointless rule. If I can turn a Unit-of-One in any direction during my opponents Activation, what's to stop me from -while thinking about which unit to Activate- turning my Unit-of-One in the desired direction, then activate it and get it to move in the desired direction. What does "during my opponents Activation" even mean? As long as he is rolling dice or moving figures?
Why not simply give a Unit-of-One a free turn?
A Unit of One can pivot at any time - not just during the opponents turn.
The primary reason for it not being a free manoeuvre is that it is a "special free action" (direct quote) and does not count as a manoeuvre within the turn, also as written there is no limit to the number of times it can be used so...
Joriff the Unloved finds himself in the unenviable position of having four units of archers surrounding him. The unit to the north activates and Joriff pivots to face them. he can then use Shielding to protect himself. Next, the unit to the south activates - once again Joriff pivots to face and uses the Shielding rule. Assuming he again survives, this can continue for all the other units (also assuming that there is a more interesting fight going on elsewhere).
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Having just re-read the rule (page 28) it says "including other unit's activation" - this means that a unit of one can turn at any point in the game up to its activation - (see later for an additional wrinkle).
I have to admit to thinking that during an enemy activation a unit of one can manoeuvre does define when it can manoeuvre - literally at any point in the opponent's activation.
You do also make a good point as to it being a manoeuvre (use of the word "turn" could cause confusion).
The only "rules lawyer" issue would be whether they could react (ie turn) if they were declared the target of a shooting attack. Read as written, I would say yes.
Youre right. I read it, and it can maneuver (actually pivot, and it can be important, because so it cant "turn out" of the way of a charge) at any point, but only if it wasnt activated yet. So it can only be attacked in the front or in the rear, after it was activated (but an initiated combat is an activation, so it can only turn its facing in the first close combat).
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Youre right. I read it, and it can maneuver (actually pivot, and it can be important, because so it cant "turn out" of the way of a charge) at any point, but only if it wasnt activated yet. So it can only be attacked in the front or in the rear, after it was activated (but an initiated combat is an activation, so it can only turn its facing in the first close combat).
Yes, hence why Joriff did not activate in my example.
... it can maneuver (actually pivot, and it can be important, because so it cant "turn out" of the way of a charge)
You are correct, but for a unit of one there is no difference between a pivot (centred on the "officer") and a wheel (centred on any end figure) ^__^.
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You are correct, but for a unit of one there is no difference between a pivot (centred on the "officer") and a wheel (centred on any end figure) ^__^.
Pivot is a turn around the center, wheel is a turn around a corner. There is a difference, altough pretty small by a human sized miniature. But it is enough to argue about it, so its better to fix it.
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Pivot is a turn around the center, wheel is a turn around a corner. There is a difference, altough pretty small by a human sized miniature. But it is enough to argue about it, so its better to fix it.
You are correct - sorry - I had misread/misremembered that you chose the figure in the corner of the unit and rotated that and reformed the unit to match.
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Old topic, but didn't want to open new thread for additional question.
As far as I understand, the units can first pivot and then charge, even units that they can't see in the beginning of turn (so e.g. an unit that is behind them). I think it is fairly explictly said that it is possible, as line of sight is checked at the beginning of the activation and manouver is separate activation from moving.
I also do believe that it makes sense, due to game being 1:1 scale and thus the units would be much more nimble than in actual mass battles. Of course it also allows unit being charged to flank to be able to respond on their next turn. However, as it took me so much off guard and is so different from other "rank and flank" games, I just wanted to see if it is the way that it is normally played.
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That is how we play it. I have definitely made some positioning mistakes that saw me flank charged after a wheel manouvre.
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I agree that elven mounted rangers should be CD2 and that, even then, they are borderline overpriced.