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Other Stuff => Bazaar of Obscurities => Commercial => Topic started by: Andrew66 on January 06, 2021, 08:27:45 AM

Title: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 06, 2021, 08:27:45 AM
I’m noticing a lack of info from online traders regarding there new dealings with EU customers , Warlord and perry seem on the ball but no notifications from others , is this due to lack of clarity on the procedures or will UK manufacturers be looking inward only , what is your experience?
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on January 06, 2021, 09:27:00 AM
Frontrank and a few others have put a hold on shipping to the EU whilst they resolve this.

 I think it's less the manufacturers looking inward and more the fact that the trade deal was established literally just before Christmas, when many traders had already closed, and the UK is trying to deal with rapid shifts in Tier restrictions and a new national lockdown due to the COVID variant. From what I have heard, there is basically no guidance from the UK government regarding what the deal means for many small companies, so they will be trying to work it out whilst also trying to work out if they are even allowed to be open, and in what capacity that 'opening' might be.
Give them a couple of weeks to sort things out ;-)
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 06, 2021, 10:30:11 AM
I guessed it was more lack of information from governments part , it’s unfortunate that some businesses will suffer , I suspect that people in Europe like myself will eventually take the extra costs as part of having a hobby  and just suck it up 😞 or I’ll start fishing instead
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on January 06, 2021, 03:07:45 PM
Lack of info, I guess. In theory, with the deal as it is there are no customs between the UK and EU, but do they get to collect VAT? Or not? What is the paperwork necessary to send out of the UK? And the lockdown I guess is not helping either. Hope this will be short it out soon and trade goes back to normal. In the meanwhile, I am saving money for later.

PS: I asked Eureka UK (I need to order some Austrian Hussars for the Revolutionary Wars) but not answer from them yet.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on January 06, 2021, 03:11:33 PM
Frontrank and a few others have put a hold on shipping to the EU whilst they resolve this.

 I think it's less the manufacturers looking inward and more the fact that the trade deal was established literally just before Christmas, when many traders had already closed, and the UK is trying to deal with rapid shifts in Tier restrictions and a new national lockdown due to the COVID variant. From what I have heard, there is basically no guidance from the UK government regarding what the deal means for many small companies, so they will be trying to work it out whilst also trying to work out if they are even allowed to be open, and in what capacity that 'opening' might be.
Give them a couple of weeks to sort things out ;-)

Be safe over there! This bugger is a nasty bastard.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 06, 2021, 04:05:08 PM
As it stands , if a company in uk is vat registered and I order from uk there are 2 options , a retailer can charge zero vat on a product , and I get the figures for 20%  less , when it’s delivered to Ireland if the value is above 22euro, I will pay irish vat and customs ranging from 12€ to 40€ depending on the method of delivery. The alternate is that the company charges the relative vat at source and does the paperwork to go with it ,this should result in a frictionless delivery from retailer to buyer. What in no circumstances should happen is that company that is VAT registered charges the uk vat and then when delivered to the buyer he is also charged the vat of their respective country , I know all this sounds so complicated but if uk figure manufacturers want to keep its European customer base happy it really does need to be sorted out
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on January 06, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
As it stands , if a company in uk is vat registered and I order from uk there are 2 options , a retailer can charge zero vat on a product , and I get the figures for 20%  less , when it’s delivered to Ireland if the value is above 22euro, I will pay irish vat and customs ranging from 12€ to 40€ depending on the method of delivery. The alternate is that the company charges the relative vat at source and does the paperwork to go with it ,this should result in a frictionless delivery from retailer to buyer. What in no circumstances should happen is that company that is VAT registered charges the uk vat and then when delivered to the buyer he is also charged the vat of their respective country , I know all this sounds so complicated but if uk figure manufacturers want to keep its European customer base happy it really does need to be sorted out

Your second option only comes into existence on July 1st when the EU implements to VAT OSS policy that the UK implemented on January 1st.

A majority of UK small figure manufacturer are not VAT registered as the threshold is £85k and thus can't deduct VAT so EU customer are going to have to pay import VAT on their figures...

Mike
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 06, 2021, 06:36:01 PM
I’m noticing a lack of info from online traders regarding there new dealings with EU customers ...
I’d be interested to hear the thoughts of companies in the EU about supplying post-Brexit U.K. too.

Will the game not be worth the candle as we’re hearing from some other sectors?
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 06, 2021, 07:26:28 PM
The truth is , we will get used to it , but individuals like myself will have a smaller budget to spend on figures from the UK , I just worry that the impact on some UK manufacturers will be very negative.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 07, 2021, 08:00:02 AM
What in no circumstances should happen is that company that is VAT registered charges the uk vat and then when delivered to the buyer he is also charged the vat of their respective country

Actually, this is entirely possible. To deduct VAT, a VAT-registered business must obtain proof of export (e.g. proof of posting). If they’re not prepared to do that, by either queuing at a post office or paying for a mail collection service that gives such a proof, then they are still allowed to charge VAT to non-U.K. customers providing they also declare that VAT to HMRC. That, in turn, will lead to VAT again being charged on import.

In response to your original post, a number of VAT-registered wargames businesses, mine included, have made clear announcements on what is happening with EU orders. And in general that is we’re deducting VAT and customers in the EU can expect to pay VAT on import plus a handling charge, just like their fortunate fellow Europeans in Norway and Switzerland have for years.

When it becomes possible to register for the IOSS system that comes into force on 1 July 2021, the date on which the 22 euro low value exemption threshold for VAT ends, a number of us VAT-registered businesses will be looking at signing up so that EU customers don’t get saddled with handling charges and VAT is once again only charged at the point of sale. However, whether we adopt that system will depend on the work involved: slapping on a CN22 and letting the customer bear import costs is much easier than registering for VAT in one EU country and then keeping records of sales for each of the 27 member countries.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 07, 2021, 08:29:24 AM
Lack of info, I guess. In theory, with the deal as it is there are no customs between the UK and EU, but do they get to collect VAT? Or not? What is the paperwork necessary to send out of the UK? And the lockdown I guess is not helping either. Hope this will be short it out soon and trade goes back to normal. In the meanwhile, I am saving money for later.

PS: I asked Eureka UK (I need to order some Austrian Hussars for the Revolutionary Wars) but not answer from them yet.

Hi Antonio! Don’t confuse tariffs with VAT. The obsession in the media and from politicians about tariffs has been about the extra duties that different categories of goods attract, e.g. cheese, plus third-country status. VAT is due on import regardless of goods being tariff free, depending on the VAT rate for the goods, e.g. standard, reduced or zero. So wargames figures may be tariff free thanks to the last-minute trade agreement, but will still attract standard-rate VAT.

Be patient with Eureka U.K. - Nick and Donna probably have a lot on their hands. My decision to eventually stop being Eureka’s agent was taken as soon as the referendum result was known in 2016 because I thought that Brexit would lead to an unbearable workload for a one-man business dealing with a customer base that was 40% in the EU, knowing also that a new VAT regime was coming in. I took a couple of years to run down my stock liabilities before handing in my notice. One advantage of the drawn-out Brexit process is that I had plenty of time to withdraw. The new VAT regime and Brexit were also key reasons in dropping Oddzial Osmy: the hassle wasn’t going to be worth the volume of business.

Do I plan ahead? Yes, yes I do.  :)

Best, Ian
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 07, 2021, 08:45:10 AM
I’d be interested to hear the thoughts of companies in the EU about supplying post-Brexit U.K. too.

Will the game not be worth the candle as we’re hearing from some other sectors?

Oh, that’s quite clear. They are up in arms about the new export requirements to send goods to the U.K., even though the new rules are those that the EU is itself bringing in on 1 July, and would have brought into force on 1 January as well except they have been delayed because of the pandemic. The U.K. could not delay the changes because of the Brexit deadline. So expect in July to hear howls from the rest of the world about sending goods to the EU, and to learn that ROW businesses have decided to stop supplying the EU.

See  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721)
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: duc de limbourg on January 07, 2021, 10:35:39 AM
As far as i understand it from the Dutch taxdepartment, when ordering from UK there is no Dutch VAT when ordering under € 22,- , I have to pay VAT when ordering between € 22 and € 150 and have to pay also customs when ordering over € 150,-. Notice that the ordering amount is inclusive of insurance, postage/freight and the VAT is calculated on the goods+insurance+postage/freight+customs.

And of course you have to pay the organisation who does the importcalculation.

I thought that Eureka UK deducts the UK VAT already
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 07, 2021, 11:03:51 AM
The pain for me is not a rise in prise because of Brexit, but the fact that I have to go to the "local" customs office and pay the vat (aka Einfuhrumsatzsteuer) to get my stuff. In Germany most customs offices were moved from the city centers to the outback in the last 24 years. For me its a one hour travel one way by public transport to get my stuff.

Its now much more convinient to order via an German trader than direct from the UK producer.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Duncan McDane on January 07, 2021, 11:49:27 AM
This sucks. Shipping costs alone are sky-high already. A once a year shopping spree in the UK might be a better option than receiving multiple packets every month...
Will see how it turns out but I'm not optimistic about this. VAT & Customs ( and high shpping ) are the reason why I quit eBaying a long time ago and only seldom order from the USA anymore ( EU-resident ). Never thought the UK would go the same way.  :'(
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 07, 2021, 12:01:41 PM
As far as i understand it from the Dutch taxdepartment, when ordering from UK there is no Dutch VAT when ordering under € 22,- , I have to pay VAT when ordering between € 22 and € 150 and have to pay also customs when ordering over € 150,-. Notice that the ordering amount is inclusive of insurance, postage/freight and the VAT is calculated on the goods+insurance+postage/freight+customs.

And of course you have to pay the organisation who does the importcalculation.

I thought that Eureka UK deducts the UK VAT already

That 22 euro exemption ends on 1 July 2021.

I double-checked Eureka UK. It is VAT-registered - VAT number on the contact page. The level of turnover I used to have as Eureka's agent means it would be surprising if Eureka UK wasn't. :)
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on January 07, 2021, 12:11:01 PM
I’m noticing a lack of info from online traders regarding there new dealings with EU customers , Warlord and perry seem on the ball but no notifications from others , is this due to lack of clarity on the procedures or will UK manufacturers be looking inward only , what is your experience?

For alot of smaller companies the information as to how we carry on working with the EU has only really become avaliable in the last few days or so, so we're still figuring it out ourselves.
for all the money the UK government has spent telling companies to get ready for brexit, there has been very little for us to actually get used to prior to last week - info was not forthcoming from the uk gov and whilst we had some info from the EU, we didn't know how that would apply to us.

bigger companies with regular exports/distributors will be able to adapt quicker but smaller cottage industries are still going to take some time to really plan out their future, so it looks like you might be waiting a little longer for them to really announce anything.
also bear in mind that right now many smaller manufactures are in covid hibernation and are probably counting up whether they can even afford to carry on operating...it's a bit of a grim scene all in all.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 07, 2021, 12:12:04 PM
This sucks. Shipping costs alone are sky-high already. A once a year shopping spree in the UK might be a better option than receiving multiple packets every month...
Will see how it turns out but I'm not optimistic about this. VAT & Customs ( and high shpping ) are the reason why I quit eBaying a long time ago and only seldom order from the USA anymore ( EU-resident ). Never thought the UK would go the same way.  :'(

The UK is only going the same way as the EU. Had it remained in the EU, both it and the rest of the EU would be adopting the same laws on VAT to tax at the point of sale, not the point of entry, at the same time. As I said above, the EU would have brought these rules in on 1 January as well had it not delayed them for six months because of the pandemic.

Yes, you can benefit from making one large order and diluting the handling fee. But go too high (over GBP270) and the sender will have to fill in a CN23 customs form, as opposed to a simple CN22. Some may break down high-value international orders to avoid having to fill in a CN23!
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Arthur on January 07, 2021, 02:31:07 PM
Many thanks for your input, Ian. It is clear, informative, level-headed, and most importantly extremely useful. 
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 07, 2021, 09:47:04 PM
Thanks for all the input , I suspect that their are going to be smaller companies that will suffer ,which is sad , I wonder whether for some companies having European agents is an answer, I am in the dark as to the procedures or logistics of this , I will just have focus on my lead mountain
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 08, 2021, 11:43:17 AM
Many thanks for your input, Ian. It is clear, informative, level-headed, and most importantly extremely useful.

Thanks. I try. In fact, I wrote a news piece about the effects of Brexit and tax changes on the small wargames business back in 2016, pre-referendum. That was clear, informative and level-headed but some dismissed it as "Project Fear".
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: LazyStudent on January 08, 2021, 01:02:30 PM
This is very sad to hear. But there was always going to be a number of things to work out. Hopefully it will get sorted in the next year or so.

I am guessing, I know the answer to this question. But is there any thought on what happens if in the future, as an EU resident, I traveled over to the UK attended a show (once they are back on) purchased figures (e.g. 300GBPs worth), and then fly back with them in my luggage? Would I have to declare them to the tax man here in Germany?
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 08, 2021, 01:04:54 PM
Many thanks for your input, Ian. It is clear, informative, level-headed, and most importantly extremely useful.

I'll second this  :)
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 08, 2021, 01:08:05 PM
From LBC:

DPD has suspended all road deliveries from the UK to Europe as a result of the new "complex processes"
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: AKULA on January 08, 2021, 02:25:30 PM
From LBC:

DPD has suspended all road deliveries from the UK to Europe as a result of the new "complex processes"

From the DPD site, no mention of “complex processes”, appears to be more to do with the French closing the border due to COVID and not to do with Brexit.

https://www.dpd.co.uk/suspension-european-road-services.jsp
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Westfalia Chris on January 08, 2021, 02:42:40 PM
This is very sad to hear. But there was always going to be a number of things to work out. Hopefully it will get sorted in the next year or so.

I am guessing, I know the answer to this question. But is there any thought on what happens if in the future, as an EU resident, I traveled over to the UK attended a show (once they are back on) purchased figures (e.g. 300GBPs worth), and then fly back with them in my luggage? Would I have to declare them to the tax man here in Germany?

For Germany, if the total value of the items in question

a) for your personal use and
b) carried on your person or transported as checked luggage

doesn't exceed the Reisefreimenge cap value of 430 EUR, you won't have to pay any import duties. Above that, if it is less than 700 EUR, you may apply for the simplified flat fee of 17.5%.

You will have to declare it to the customs officials and provide, on request, a sellers' bill detailing the cost of the items.
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 08, 2021, 06:12:33 PM
This is from Irish news on DPD

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0108/1188437-brexit-deliveries/
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: LazyStudent on January 08, 2021, 07:30:37 PM
For Germany, if the total value of the items in question

a) for your personal use and
b) carried on your person or transported as checked luggage

doesn't exceed the Reisefreimenge cap value of 430 EUR, you won't have to pay any import duties. Above that, if it is less than 700 EUR, you may apply for the simplified flat fee of 17.5%.

You will have to declare it to the customs officials and provide, on request, a sellers' bill detailing the cost of the items.

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the clarification.

Best,
LS
Title: Re: Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 13, 2021, 07:30:28 PM
Having communicated with a few manufacturers now , it seems that many are suffering from a lack of clarity , they are all looking into ways of complying with legislation, but I think maybe I will hold on to my hard earned euros till they get sorted out
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 13, 2021, 09:17:05 PM
Why? It seems quite straight forwards to me. In the case of Ireland, for example, the U.K. supplier removes VAT (if they’re VAT registered), fills in a customs form and posts the goods. They’d be wise to warn their Irish customers that they'll face paying VAT and associated fees their end.

I don’t see how this is more difficult or confusing compared to what they were used to dealing with when exporting to non-EU countries pre-Brexit. That said, I’d be happy to be set straight by those companies that are actually having to deal with this right now, of course.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 14, 2021, 01:59:03 AM
Yes it should be straight forward , but I guess that some companies for whatever reason did not prepare , two companies I contacted came back with response “we will be looking into it shortly” and “we are trying to find a way through the red tape” both companies are high profile and VAT registered, the good thing to come out of this is my lead mountain will decrease, as they say every cloud has a silver lining
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: GrahamC on January 14, 2021, 08:20:46 AM
I guess as a small non vat registered one man company there isn’t a lot I can do re this and I anticipate a drop in sales from the EU or smaller orders to keep under the individual countries thresholds.
The reverse is also true Khurasan in America have already said he won’t send orders of less than a £135 to the U.K. ( the point where VAT is collected at point of entry) because it’s just too much hassle for a one man operation. I know he is looking at an eBay workaround but that could increase costs. So that coupled with Royal Mail constantly increasing prices is going to make it quite tough for us little guys I guess.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 14, 2021, 11:42:51 AM
If a company is not vat registered then there prices do tend to be lower , so absorbing the vat at this end is bearable, but still there is customs processing charges are high , here is an example of what the future holds
 One company who is vat registered replied to my enquiry, said that no plans for zero vat but offering postage discounts so for example prior Brexit a box of plastic figures would be £22.50 (inc VAT)plus free postage
Post Brexit same box £22.50 inc Vat + 23% Irish VAT £5.17 +£10.16 customs process =£37.83 free postage
It is a big jump for sure , for some the hassle of going through the red tape to sell to the eu may not be worth it and they are prepared to take the hit , I hope it does get sorted soon for sure
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 14, 2021, 12:31:08 PM
@ Andrew

Are you saying that folks in the EU will have to pay a 10 pound import duty on a 22 pound box of minis? Or is this an export duty from the UK?

From what I understand, UK import duties make it almost impossible for folks in the UK to buy stuff from the US. Here in Spain I pay no import duties on products from the US.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on January 14, 2021, 01:01:53 PM
I think the £10 in Andrew's example is a flat handling fee. e.g. I was once hit for a £8 handling fee for £0.18 of tax... I have also paid the same fee when it's over £30 of tax.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 14, 2021, 01:26:38 PM
From what I understand, UK import duties make it almost impossible for folks in the UK to buy stuff from the US. Here in Spain I pay no import duties on products from the US.
In my experience, U.K. import duty is not the problem. Rather, it’s a combination of the postage cost, the exchange rate and the Royal Mail handling fee.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on January 14, 2021, 01:49:14 PM
In my experience, U.K. import duty is not the problem. Rather, it’s a combination of the postage cost, the exchange rate and the Royal Mail handling fee.
As a Brit that buys from the US semi-regularly (curse you Brigade games and your tempting ranges!); it's postage + the Royal Mail handling fee that puts me off. Postage always seems to start at $35 - regardless of if I am buying 1 figure(!), 1 packet or 10+ packets. On an order of 10 packets, it's a lot more acceptable. Ditto the RM handling fee (the tax itself is usually negligible) - £8-10 is painful on a small order, less so on a bigger one. My usual solution has been to buy in bulk (frequently combining orders with a mate who lives locally) to maximize figures in a parcel and split the pain of the handling fee.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 14, 2021, 02:13:28 PM
That’ll be postage + Royal Mail handling fee + the certainty of paying 20% VAT on imports now.

What to do? Take more regular holidays abroad coinciding with major shows, hope for more local distributors to take the worst of the sting out of things, pray for a reduction in the VAT rate?

Hard to see any winners other than the taxman here, isn’t it?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 14, 2021, 02:20:37 PM
The £10 is a handling and processing charge that the post office will charge
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 14, 2021, 02:26:40 PM
If it’s a courier company it can vary between 28€ to 40€ flat rate charge for handling and processing
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 14, 2021, 02:54:26 PM
Actually it more or less the situation I discussed with an German trader at a show in 2018. Problems with VAT, need to go to the customs office etc, worsened by the change in the UK VAT rules (as far I understand an article in the Guardian). Until this is figured out I stop ordering in England.

Has anybody of us Europeans ordered from an manufacture based in North-Ireland already? It should be withour problems.

I advice for all Uk manufactures, look for a realiable trader/partner in Europe, who can handle all of the import stuff better than a normal customer or set up an office in NI for the trade into Europe.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 14, 2021, 04:06:53 PM
In my experience, U.K. import duty is not the problem. Rather, it’s a combination of the postage cost, the exchange rate and the Royal Mail handling fee.

Ah... exactly.

So, this is a self-inflicted wound.

I really doubt if I will pay a 10 pound handling fee for a 22 pound box of miniatures from the UK. Postage is already high enough. In fact, it may become cheaper to buy from the US.

I advice for all Uk manufactures, look for a realiable trader/partner in Europe, who can handle all of the import stuff better than a normal customer or set up an office in NI for the trade into Europe.

I agree with Wellington here. And I would add that the mini manufacturers need to get together and make their collective voices heard. This is not a choice between "the hassle" or not, it is a choice between survival or not, especially combined with what will almost certainly be a rather strong recession in the coming months due to Covid.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 14, 2021, 04:27:40 PM
To be honest , the only companies I have found on the ball are warlord games and perry miniatures , they were both aware of the the procedures that were in place and acted accordingly, so it can be done , as I don’t live or work in UK , I am unaware of the support system in place for SME ,s , was it something that wargaming companies saw coming and didn’t act or was it that instructions and guidance were lacking , also I would be interested to know what proportion of trade is with the eu for figure manufacturers
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 14, 2021, 05:02:08 PM
I really doubt if I will pay a 10 pound handling fee for a 22 pound box of miniatures from the UK. Postage is already high enough. In fact, it may become cheaper to buy from the US.
To be clear, we pay an £8 Royal Mail handling fee on imports into the U.K. Royal Mail don’t charge any export fees, just for the cost of the postage.

To use a Perry Miniatures example, as of today someone in e.g. Spain would pay for the box of plastic figures + 17% for the shipping to Europe + £6 rest of the world postal supplement to the Perrys. Any VAT, duties and/or handling fees would be paid in Spain at Spanish rates to Spanish authorities when the parcel arrives.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on January 14, 2021, 07:13:46 PM
To be clear, we pay an £8 Royal Mail handling fee on imports into the U.K. Royal Mail don’t charge any export fees, just for the cost of the postage.

To use a Perry Miniatures example, as of today someone in e.g. Spain would pay for the box of plastic figures + 17% for the shipping to Europe + £6 rest of the world postal supplement to the Perrys. Any VAT, duties and/or handling fees would be paid in Spain at Spanish rates to Spanish authorities when the parcel arrives.

Spanish Post (Correos) have a €16 handling/admin fee plus charge Spanish VAT (% varies depending where you are) on the declared cost of the goods, the postage and their own fee.
Import Duties will depend on what is in the packet, toys are currently reduced rate, "models" are  full rate.
Currently small imports under €22 euros are not levied but are supposed to be self declared if used for a business purpose ("Gift" has no meaning, they are assessed same as a purchase).
Current thought post Brexit is that all UK origin packets are going to be checked as it is simpler and quicker than trying to sort them.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 14, 2021, 07:16:06 PM
Yikes!

Perhaps we need a sticky of miniature manufacturers in the EU. Here are a few I know:

1898 miniatures: https://www.1898miniaturas.com/en/
Ammo (supplies): https://www.migjimenez.com/en/
Corvus Belli: https://store.corvusbelli.com/es/
Legio Heroica: http://www.legio-heroica.com/index-en.html
Totentanz miniatures: http://totentanz-miniatures.com/
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 14, 2021, 07:55:00 PM
Distributors too? A couple of names/links to get you started:
Battlefield Berlin, Germany (https://shop.battlefield-berlin.de/)
King Games, Denmark (https://kinggames.dk/shop/frontpage.html)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Deedles on January 14, 2021, 09:10:29 PM
Well , that was painful . Ordered some bespoke  mats from Deepcut in Vilnius (used them for many years ). So £250 of order has attracted £73 of VAT ( not getting the maths on that at all - and will need to look at it) and £11.30 processing by UPS . I reckon that has just killed ordering from them unfortunately. Hopefully Crisis is on for visit later in the year



Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 15, 2021, 08:40:37 AM
Well , that was painful . Ordered some bespoke  mats from Deepcut in Vilnius (used them for many years ). So £250 of order has attracted £73 of VAT ( not getting the maths on that at all - and will need to look at it) and £11.30 processing by UPS . I reckon that has just killed ordering from them unfortunately. Hopefully Crisis is on for visit later in the year

Deepcut is VAT-registered, so pre-Brexit you’d have paid the VAT in the total price at the point of purchase.

Post Brexit, Deepcut should deduct the VAT and via courier for an order over £135 you’d instead pay the VAT on entry to the UK. Additionally, you would pay VAT on the actual delivery cost via UPS. So the sting is only the handling charge, the extra VAT on the delivery charge, and whatever variation on order value is due to the currency conversion rate used. Divide that across the total and the premium isn’t that high in percentage terms. I repeat that you would have paid the VAT on the mats anyway: it’s just a shock to have it charged separately.

The way to minimise extra charges is to order big to dilute the effect of the handling charge and VAT on delivery charges. It’s what I did for years as Eureka’s agent: a £12 DHL collection fee spread across £500+ of figures is next to nothing. The VAT was inescapable. :)

There are problems associated with the UK’s implementation of the same basic system that the EU will use from 1 July, in that although the EU will not require registration for VAT in one EU country to sell into the EU - it’s optional, but smoothes importation and will eliminate handling charges - the post-Brexit UK insists on registration for VAT in the UK to sell into the UK. This particularly affects orders under £135 in value - for shipments of higher value the existing approach to charge VAT on import applies. And which is why some US wargames businesses are suddenly not selling to the UK. Obviously it doesn’t just affect US businesses, but no one in Australia has started howling yet.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: SiamTiger on January 15, 2021, 09:19:18 AM
To be honest, to see that a huge portion of the traders/manufacturers weren't able to ask for a proper conditions on bulk shipping (companies like DPD, GPS and so on offer them starting at really low numbers), I don't see a good chance for proper support of this tax/customs/fee.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Leunstoelgeneraalbd on January 15, 2021, 11:26:30 AM
A few days ago I received the following message from The Plastic Soldier Company (and I am living in The Netherlands):

"EU shipping guarantee

With all the "challenges" and uncertainties of Brexit and the end of the transition period 1 January 2021, we want to make sure our lovely customers in the EU continue to get their PSC goodness without having to pay any extra costs around VAT, handling charges etc.

From what we understand currently we have come up with a cunning plan! If EU customers keep their orders below £60 and below 2kg in weight , we will be sending the order as a smaller Royal Mail parcel and any unpleasantness should be avoided! To make this doubly secure for our customers we will offer the guarantee that, in the unlikely event of the customer being charged anything extra on delivery for VAT, handling, customs etc, we will reimburse the additional costs.

So, to be safely under 2 kg, EU customers should follow these guidelines when placing an order:-

One hardback book and one plastic kit, or
Upto two softback books and one plastic kit, or
Upto three plastic kits, or
One boardgame"

So anyone else who is able to offer this to his (future) cliënts is of course strongly adviced to do so.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on January 15, 2021, 01:10:36 PM
A few days ago I received the following message from The Plastic Soldier Company (and I am living in The Netherlands):

"EU shipping guarantee

With all the "challenges" and uncertainties of Brexit and the end of the transition period 1 January 2021, we want to make sure our lovely customers in the EU continue to get their PSC goodness without having to pay any extra costs around VAT, handling charges etc.

From what we understand currently we have come up with a cunning plan! If EU customers keep their orders below £60 and below 2kg in weight , we will be sending the order as a smaller Royal Mail parcel and any unpleasantness should be avoided! To make this doubly secure for our customers we will offer the guarantee that, in the unlikely event of the customer being charged anything extra on delivery for VAT, handling, customs etc, we will reimburse the additional costs.

So, to be safely under 2 kg, EU customers should follow these guidelines when placing an order:-

One hardback book and one plastic kit, or
Upto two softback books and one plastic kit, or
Upto three plastic kits, or
One boardgame"

So anyone else who is able to offer this to his (future) cliënts is of course strongly adviced to do so.

This is just gambling on the parcels not being caught in customs - from July they will be checking all parcels with electronic handling...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 15, 2021, 03:48:25 PM
This is just gambling on the parcels not being caught in customs - from July they will be checking all parcels with electronic handling...

Sounds like I need to buy my stuff for this year soon... while confusion reigns!  :D
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 15, 2021, 04:34:00 PM
Sounds like I need to buy my stuff for this year soon... while confusion reigns!  :D

Now is definitely the time! A number of my EU customers have already twigged that it’s the right moment to make small (sub-22euro of product) orders to make the most of the low value exemption threshold before it ends on 1 July.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 15, 2021, 11:21:03 PM
Contacted another trader today who is vat registered, they said that they were doing free shipping now , but as I explained even with free shipping a £22.50 box of figures will still cost £37 , I think I will have to go the way of a European distributor , found one in Germany that stocks a lot, , the only benefit I get is I can order from aventine no problem 😀
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 16, 2021, 12:24:08 AM
Yikes!

Perhaps we need a sticky of miniature manufacturers in the EU. Here are a few I know:

1898 miniatures: https://www.1898miniaturas.com/en/
Ammo (supplies): https://www.migjimenez.com/en/
Corvus Belli: https://store.corvusbelli.com/es/
Legio Heroica: http://www.legio-heroica.com/index-en.html
Totentanz miniatures: http://totentanz-miniatures.com/

That’s the whole point of the Common Market, I suppose: create advantages for those on inside and disadvantages for those on the outside.

As it is, Great Britain has a history which has led to vibrant and fertile wargames market which we really dont see to the same extent in the rest of Europe. The EU wargames businesses have a lot of growing and maturing to do.

With increasing import prices I cannot see myself purchasing the same volumes from the UK any longer. Lucky for me I have a lead mountain which will keep me busy for decades.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on January 16, 2021, 11:24:13 AM
That’s the whole point of the Common Market, I suppose: create advantages for for those on inside and disadvantages for those on the outside.

If only they had left it at that   >:(

Some other manufacturers for the EU listing:
MoM Miniatures    https://www.momminiatures.com
CGM    https://www.campaign-game-miniatures.com
Germania Figuren    https://germania-figuren.eu
Tercios Miniatures    https://terciosminiatures.com
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: bluewillow on January 16, 2021, 11:56:51 AM
I have placed two orders under the 2kg €45 parcel limit for france ...we shall see if I get caught out

cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Belgian on January 16, 2021, 12:13:42 PM
Will also buy less from the UK due to especially handling fees.

Know these Greek, Italian, Spanish and Polish companies in the EU

Shieldwolf Miniatures (fantasy and scifi hard-plastic and resin minis)
Fireforge Games (fantasy and historical hard-plastic and resin minis)
Barrage Miniatures (historical scenery, boats, vehicles etc)
Puppetswar
Kromlech
Hexy Studio
Mirliton
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on January 17, 2021, 11:46:57 AM
Will also buy less from the UK due to especially handling fees.

Order#1 from the UK in December ( VAT registered company but irrelevant then) Arrived in January via courier service.
48 figures net worth £84 + £9 p&P  Total spend £93 .Average price for 1 figure £1.93

Order #2  from the UK in January ( got here in 6 days!) ( company Not VAT registered ) Arrived in January via courier service( actually the same as order #1!)
50 figures net worth £82.5 + £14 p&p + 16£ (18€) Customs charge + £9 (10 €) 'handling charge' Total spend £ 121 ( depending on conversion rate) Average price per figure £2.42.

Guess I'm going to be very selective in what I buy next. I will end up with less toys, but as I, just as the most of us, have a huge lead mountain I'll just dig into that. What I'm not going to do is add nearly 50% to my hobby budget. Simple economics will always 'win' out.

Future of Crisis show still very uncertain. Aside from the Covid 19 situation, I would have to start preparing in late March/ early April to get ready by November. Frankly impossible now.My crystal ball is extremely cloudy  :D

If, and when Crisis is hosted (scheduled for November 6th) it will probably be a smaller, more European flavoured one, as UK traders will face an enormous amount of paperwork just to get here.
Have tried to find my way into Customs regulations but gave up ( for the time being)  after getting wildly different answers. If it becomes any clearer I'll keep everyone posted. Changing the VAT system again in July really doesn't help either because any relevant info ( not that we're getting any now!), could become irrelevant by that time.

European retailers might be a blessing and a (big) partial solution if they can keep up with their imports.






Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: duc de limbourg on January 17, 2021, 12:05:32 PM
Willy thanks for the info
It seems that ordering with not-VAT registered companies will be expensive (twice VAT of each around 20%) is steep.
And for small orders (under € 22) until july 1st maybe the handlings charge can be a lot.

Of course succes with Crisis 2021 and hopefully it will go on in November. Tough decision I think to make.

greetigns
jan
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 17, 2021, 12:08:18 PM
Willy thanks for the info
It seems that ordering with not-VAT registered companies will be expensive (twice VAT of each around 20%) is steep.
And for small orders (under € 22) until july 1st maybe the handlings charge can be a lot.

I'm not VAT registered but am reducing the vast majority of prices throughout my webshop.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 17, 2021, 02:47:52 PM
I have now talked to the 8 companies that I deal with so far these are reply’s
2 companies Warlord and perry are vat registered and charge at source paying the relevant charges this is gold standard
Caliver books are vat registered but will not  be charging zero vat to Europe but instead lower postage so still vat and handling charges
Footsore are vat registered but again no zero vat , instead they will reimburse vat charges with proof complicated I think
Wargames foundry are looking into what to do
Arcane scenery vat still charged so if order over 22€ vat charged and handling charge
Newline are not vat registered so customs etc
1st corps are not vat registered so customs apply
hope this helps for those in Europe
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Dags on January 17, 2021, 03:24:08 PM
Caliver books are vat registered but will not  be charging zero vat to Europe but instead lower postage so still vat and handling charges

Remember that, in the UK at least, books do not have VAT on them.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Belgian on January 17, 2021, 04:44:28 PM
Order#1 from the UK in December ( VAT registered company but irrelevant then) Arrived in January via courier service.
48 figures net worth £84 + £9 p&P  Total spend £93 .Average price for 1 figure £1.93

Order #2  from the UK in January ( got here in 6 days!) ( company Not VAT registered ) Arrived in January via courier service( actually the same as order #1!)
50 figures net worth £82.5 + £16 p&p + 14£ (16€) Customs charge + £9 (10 €) 'handling charge' Total spend £ 121 ( depending on conversion rate) Average price per figure £2.42.

Guess I'm going to be very selective in what I buy next. I will end up with less toys, but as I, just as the most of us, have a huge lead mountain I'll just dig into that. What I'm not going to do is add nearly 50% to my hobby budget. Simple economics will always 'win' out.

Future of Crisis show still very uncertain. Aside from the Covid 19 situation, I would have to start preparing in late March/ early April to get ready by November. Frankly impossible now.My crystal ball is extremely cloudy  :D

If, and when Crisis is hosted (scheduled for November 6th) it will probably be a smaller, more European flavoured one, as UK traders will face an enormous amount of paperwork just to get here.
Have tried to find my way into Customs regulations but gave up ( for the time being)  after getting wildly different answers. If it becomes any clearer I'll keep everyone posted. Changing the VAT system again in July really doesn't help either because any relevant info ( not that we're getting any now!), could become irrelevant by that time.

European retailers might be a blessing and a (big) partial solution if they can keep up with their imports.

Luckily also have a large collection of unpainted miniatures but will still need a select number of miniatures to create full armies.

Also think for EU wargamers the best and most affordable option for especially small orders will be EU retaillers although prices will certainly too rise.

A shift to EU based companies might als be part of the solution although very few large players sadly exist (we might need a list here)

And also shows might help, have been frequenting Crisis for years (started when it was still organized in the Metropolis Complex)

But with Brexit and Covid that sounds hard to organize for this year too, that said plenty of miniatures still to paint for probably a decade or two.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 17, 2021, 06:16:57 PM
Yes with books there is no vat , but for their figures etc there will be
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Deedles on January 17, 2021, 11:31:13 PM
Deepcut is VAT-registered, so pre-Brexit you’d have paid the VAT in the total price at the point of purchase.

Post Brexit, Deepcut should deduct the VAT and via courier for an order over £135 you’d instead pay the VAT on entry to the UK. Additionally, you would pay VAT on the actual delivery cost via UPS. So the sting is only the handling charge, the extra VAT on the delivery charge, and whatever variation on order value is due to the currency conversion rate used. Divide that across the total and the premium isn’t that high in percentage terms. I repeat that you would have paid the VAT on the mats anyway: it’s just a shock to have it charged separately.



So confirmed with Deepcut that Vat was not applied at point if order - though it’s not clear from non bespoke items on website if prices include vat or not or it is/isn’t applied at the moment - so I will know fir next time I guess .

 So now just need to work out why UPS have charged 30% of the order value as duty + then the handling fee. No values on the packaging just received to work that out from. So it’s a query with UPS.

On a plus I ordered bespoke items 3rd Jan , turned up today.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 18, 2021, 11:12:59 AM
Seems it getting worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctts726pRhQ
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 18, 2021, 12:34:32 PM
Understandable, but I’m sure that things will improve once everyone becomes familiar with the new realities.

Paperwork appears to be a major problem. I’m hearing stories about hassle with basic stuff e.g. referring to the U.K. rather than Great Britain on documents. It makes sense with the U.K. being Great Britain plus Northern Ireland, but it’s not standard practice for me at least.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 18, 2021, 12:43:26 PM
Seems it getting worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctts726pRhQ

"...enormous bureaucratic regulation..."

Why am I not surprised.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: duc de limbourg on January 18, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
That and total ignorance by a lot of (mostly smaller) logistic companies
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Westfalia Chris on January 18, 2021, 02:50:38 PM
I know it is tricky in this case, but please steer away from the political issues and keep this focused on the hands-on, daily-life aspects.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 18, 2021, 03:36:38 PM
I have a question about the CN22 customs declaration form for those experienced in such matters. While I’m not exporting as a business per se, I do occasionally sell second hand stuff from my lead pile to people who aren’t in Great Britain.

When I’ve completed this form in the past, I’ve ticked the Contents box for Sale of Goods and left the section about HS tariff no. & origin blank. To play it safe during the current disruption, I’m assuming that the correct HS tariff no. to use is 9503.00.

Quote from: “WCO”
Tricycles, scooters, pedal cars and similar wheeled toys; dolls' carriages; dolls; other toys; reduced-size ("scale") models and similar recreational models, working or not; puzzles of all kinds.

Also, that I’d be best off putting England or Great Britain as the origin.

Am I right in my assumptions? Thanks.


Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on January 18, 2021, 04:36:31 PM
I am waiting for a shipment from Eureka UK. When I receive it, will let you know what happened.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Spinal Tap on January 18, 2021, 04:40:01 PM
For items ordered from the EU by UK customers the rules are, according to .Gov website, as follows for charges:

If over 150 Euros (£135) in value then the seller should deduct the 20% VAT on the price and the courier will, for a fee,  collect the VAT and any other duties from the customer in the UK; goods will be held until the money owed is paid.

If under £135 then the seller in the EU is supposed to collect the VAT at 20%, pay to register with Her Majesty's Revenue ands Customs in the UK and pay the VAT to the UK tax authorities.

Many smaller companies who do very little business to the UK might feel it's not worth their while to spend money and time registering for paying taxes in the UK and will just not bother.

As far as I'm aware these rules will be coming into force for sales the other way later in the year as they are adopted by the EU.

I have friends who import/export and the rules of origin stuff is what is causing them headaches as many goods are the product of global supply chains.

Regarding trucks the people I know importing one type of goods are not having problems; the problem is when a truck has 3000 parcels on board from different senders and each one has it's own separate paperwork, rules and taxes.

It's the rules we have now and what we will have to live with unless something else can be negotiated.

My suspicion is that we will become limited to our own internal market and have to like it or lump it.

Or vendors will impose a minimum spend that takes the VAT headache away from them, although increasing the costs somewhat for the buyer.


Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on January 18, 2021, 05:53:36 PM
How about this for a solution?

People in each country set up a centralised point stocking the games and figures, buying them in bulk to apportion overhead costs. Then local people contact them to purchase what they need paying only local delivery costs.
It could be called something like....a shop  ;)

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Spinal Tap on January 18, 2021, 06:24:15 PM
How about this for a solution?

People in each country set up a centralised point stocking the games and figures, buying them in bulk to apportion overhead costs. Then local people contact them to purchase what they need paying only local delivery costs.
It could be called something like....a shop  ;)

Edited as I came over as a bit of a xxxx

If they do this they will need to invest capital into the venture, cover all the expenses of importing the goods including the VAT and duties, the costs of running a business, paying back start up loans etc. then pass them on to the customer - basically what distributors do in many markets already.

As such they would add an extra step as the middleman in the chain rather than people buying direct from small manufacturers abroad which would more than likely ramp up the price more than ordering direct and paying the extra.

The miniatures industry is tiny, with the exception of a few large players who are still minnows in the real world, and the cost of holding stock from a large number of very small manufacturers to meet everyone's wants would be astronomical. Look at the miniatures you own. How many different manufacturers are there? How many different lines does each manufacturer have?
How many of each individual type would the shop need to stock?

There's a reason why shops selling miniatures are few and far between, with those that do only stocking one or maybe two lines (Warhammer shops for example).

That's why the old model of trading where you could buy direct from the cottage manufacturer worked so well.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on January 18, 2021, 10:37:12 PM
 ???

Guess this little icon  ;)   just passed you by then.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Spinal Tap on January 18, 2021, 10:43:38 PM
???

Guess this little icon  ;)   just passed you by then.

I'm not always the brightest lamp in the street 😀
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 19, 2021, 08:15:36 AM
Edited as I came over as a bit of a xxxx

If they do this they will need to invest capital into the venture, cover all the expenses of importing the goods including the VAT and duties, the costs of running a business, paying back start up loans etc. then pass them on to the customer - basically what distributors do in many markets already.

As such they would add an extra step as the middleman in the chain rather than people buying direct from small manufacturers abroad which would more than likely ramp up the price more than ordering direct and paying the extra.

The miniatures industry is tiny, with the exception of a few large players who are still minnows in the real world, and the cost of holding stock from a large number of very small manufacturers to meet everyone's wants would be astronomical. Look at the miniatures you own. How many different manufacturers are there? How many different lines does each manufacturer have?
How many of each individual type would the shop need to stock?

There's a reason why shops selling miniatures are few and far between, with those that do only stocking one or maybe two lines (Warhammer shops for example).

That's why the old model of trading where you could buy direct from the cottage manufacturer worked so well.

I know of several shops like this in major cities within the EU. In Stockholm there is Alphaspel.se which makes it work (so far). They stock GW, NorthStar, Perry, Mithril... well, a huge array. I will be following if and how they are  able to absorb the increased cost of imports from the UK.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 19, 2021, 08:25:09 AM
Has anyone else noticed their current orders from the UK stalling? I made an order on a good deal for magnetic sheets (to use for safe miniature storage) through amazon.co.uk and it is taking a really long time.  What I can tell from the parcel tracking it has been stuck in Rochester, Kent GB. It is understandable, from what I hear about the confusion surrounding exports.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on January 19, 2021, 11:23:33 AM
Has anyone else noticed their current orders from the UK stalling?
Packages from the UK have been very slow for the past year or so I've found - easily took 1-2 weeks longer compared to the norm in 2018. Put it down to potential Brexit preparations, though looking at it now I'm not convinced a lot of planning and testing of post-Brexit procedures was ever in place!
Most of mine weren't tracked though, so I can't see where they were stuck...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Dags on January 19, 2021, 11:31:13 AM
I think the pandemic and lockdowns are having a major effect on postage speeds.... increased usage (more peeps buying stuff online because the shops are closed) and fewer staff due to illness and isolations.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 19, 2021, 11:57:10 AM
I think the pandemic and lockdowns are having a major effect on postage speeds.... increased usage (more peeps buying stuff online because the shops are closed) and fewer staff due to illness and isolations.

OK. Good to know. Thanks.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Spinal Tap on January 19, 2021, 12:11:54 PM
I know of several shops like this in major cities within the EU. In Stockholm there is Alphaspel.se which makes it work (so far). They stock GW, NorthStar, Perry, Mithril... well, a huge array. I will be following if and how they are  able to absorb the increased cost of imports from the UK.


But GW, Northstar, Perry etc. are all relatively big players and should be able to flex to meet the new rules as they are exporting in biggish numbers.

But the UK is awash with small one man bands (as I'm sure the rest of Europe is) who survive by selling direct and most wont be VAT registered; it's going to be difficult for their current business model to survive long term in it's current form.

I'm sure there are numerous ways they can address this but some will be unable or unwilling to do so which reduces consumer choice - not a good thing for us, the end user.



Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 19, 2021, 12:14:34 PM
2 companies Warlord and perry are vat registered and charge at source paying the relevant charges this is gold standard

Perry appear not to collect VAT on non-UK orders. A £20 box drops to £16.67.

Warlord collect VAT on UK orders, but don't seem to on non-UK orders, though the price remains the same :£27.50 inc VAT to the UK, £27.50 to everywhere else, but no mention of taxes. For UK orders, there is a note for how much of the gross price is tax, but not for non-UK orders.

So I don't think they're collecting EU VAT at the point of sale. For them to be doing so, before July, would be a massive undertaking for a small company.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 19, 2021, 12:27:25 PM

But GW, Northstar, Perry etc. are all relatively big players and should be able to flex to meet the new rules as they are exporting in biggish numbers.

But the UK is awash with small one man bands (as I'm sure the rest of Europe is) who survive by selling direct and most wont be VAT registered; it's going to be difficult for their current business model to survive long term in it's current form.

I'm sure there are numerous ways they can address this but some will be unable or unwilling to do so which reduces consumer choice - not a good thing for us, the end user.

Quite right. Wargaming is one of my main hobbies and the only one I engage in to some extent basically every day. Based on the fact that a majority of the miniatures I collect and the materials I use is purchased from the UK, it is likely that that will be become more of a hassle in the short run and more expensive in the long run. It is certainly not the end of the world, but from the scope of this past time of ours, I assume there will be changes in my spending habits and sourcing.

As I have mentioned before, I have a lead pile which will see me through my seven lean years*. I am not likely to start on any new, large projects outside of that, but I do enjoy adding a few odd items now and then to, so to speak, "complete the collection".

*) ...although that lead pile my not last as long as I once thought. This pandemic and isolation, as many friends also have given witness to, has done wonders to painting productivity.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 19, 2021, 05:33:12 PM
Warlord sent email stating they were charging at source and a order to perry did charge vat at source
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 19, 2021, 05:51:17 PM
Warlord sent email stating they were charging at source and a order to perry did charge vat at source

How curious. Both their online shops give the impression that is absolutely not happening, especially the Perry shop with the price being shown without VAT fir anywhere other than the UK, and no VAT being indicated anywhere in the checkout process (except for the UK), right up to clicking complete payment in Paypal. Warlord maybe, though it's odd that their shop system only itemises VAT for the UK, not any other country.

Do Perry send by Royal Mail as stated on their website? I wonder how they'd indicate the VAT had been paid on the CN22 label. Their shop doesn't even suggest that Norwegian VAT is collected, which is a much more straightforward system and point-of-sale paid VAT can be indicated on a postal label.

Anyway, I don't mean to doubt your info. I was just really intrigued and went to have a look for myself.  :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 19, 2021, 09:37:52 PM
Email from warlord
Hello Everyone,
As I’m sure you know, there has been many questions regarding our delivery service to European countries come January 1st and the UK officially leaves the European Union.
Our Methodology and motivation for this is very simple, we want to keep it as easy as possible for our European customers to continue building and painting models, and playing games with their friends.
 
From January 1st 2021, we will begin shipping our European orders with duties paid. This means there will be no additional tax to pay for EU customers importing goods from the UK, which also means there will be no additional delay in receiving your goods.
We will also be implementing European pricing over the next day, so you will notice that where you were previously presented a price in Pounds Sterling or other currencies, you will be presented with Euro pricing when shopping from outside of the UK and within Europe
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 19, 2021, 09:52:36 PM
Checked Perry website again , you are correct , the order I made was on 31 December it was uk vat charged sorry , I should read things more carefully , that leaves only warlord on the ball 🤪
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 19, 2021, 09:56:55 PM
Cool thanks for the info.  :) That explains why VAT isn’t itemised then. I guess they're not using Royal Mail for that, as I thought the RM DDP hadn't launched yet.

Checked Perry website again , you are correct , the order I made was on 31 December it was uk vat charged sorry , I should read things more carefully , that leaves only warlord on the ball 🤪

Ah right, no worries. Yeah, up until Dec 31st 11pm GMT UK VAT would still be collected on EU orders.

I'm not sure only Warlord being 'on the ball' is necessarily a fair summary though. DDP will be pricey for Warlord to implement and I'd imagine there would be minimum parcel numbers requirements even to be offered that service. I highly doubt my tiny tiny business would qualify. Perry are probably doing all they really can right now by zero rating VAT on exports. As has been said earlier in the thread, in July non-EU businesses will be able to register for EU VAT through the IOSS. If the admin costs of another VAT return don't exceed the benefits, I can see a lot of businesses signing up. It is optional though, unlike (apparently) the ROW into UK equivalent.

I can also see a lot of non-VAT registered businesses selling through Ebay or Etsy, who from July will have to collect EU VAT on all sales through their marketplace. They're doing that now for sales into the UK. Hardly ideal though for many reasons.

But other than zero-rating VAT if you're registered and providing info to potential customers, there's not much more that can be done by a small business right now.

I do share you surprise in the OP about the lack of information from companies. Even though the trade deal was only signed on the 24th of Dec, the consequences of Brexit for export ecommerce to the EU have been obvious for years.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 19, 2021, 10:32:10 PM
Yes that was my initial post that I was surprised at the lack of information and preparation from companies that do have a market in Europe, I accept that for many companies they are what can be called cottage industries, one man bands that do it for love of the hobby , maybe also the market in Europe is not substantial enough to warrant all the paperwork , it maybe that the main source of income is the Uk and they will take the hit of EU members choosing not to spend  in UK . It does seem that July will be the big tell , if companies sign up , as then only a handling charge will be levied which is bearable. The situation that troubled me most were companies that are vat registered and don’t charge zero vat which can mean a substantial rise in price. I could always tell my wife I want to move back home to Uk after 31 years in Ireland I don’t think that’s a starter😀
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 19, 2021, 10:51:47 PM
Yeah, without knowing the ins and outs for each VAT registered business, not zero rating does seem like a mistake. But I'm sure they have their reasons.

It does seem that July will be the big tell , if companies sign up , as then only a handling charge will be levied which is bearable.

There won't be a handling charge if a company registers with the IOSS. That company will collect VAT on your order at your local rate. It'll be just like purchasing something from your own country (from a VAT reg business at least). When the foreign company posts the order, they'll include their IOSS number on the packet, which means it will go through customs and be released without anything needing to be paid. That's for packages up to 150 Euro only though (inc postal costs). Above that and the company won't collect VAT, your local postal service or courier will and they'll charge their handling fee.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on January 20, 2021, 07:48:33 AM
Email from warlord
Hello Everyone,
As I’m sure you know, there has been many questions regarding our delivery service to European countries come January 1st and the UK officially leaves the European Union.
Our Methodology and motivation for this is very simple, we want to keep it as easy as possible for our European customers to continue building and painting models, and playing games with their friends.
 
From January 1st 2021, we will begin shipping our European orders with duties paid. This means there will be no additional tax to pay for EU customers importing goods from the UK, which also means there will be no additional delay in receiving your goods.
We will also be implementing European pricing over the next day, so you will notice that where you were previously presented a price in Pounds Sterling or other currencies, you will be presented with Euro pricing when shopping from outside of the UK and within Europe
Wonder how the Euro prices will correspond in terms of exchange rates (sounds like they are fixed prices rather than based on the current exchange rate?).

On a side note, I mightily annoys me when the EU and Europe are regarded as the same thing. Unless I've missed a major tectonic shift, the UK is still part of Europe. Multiple other European countries are also not part of the EU, and not all EU countries use the Euro. From the above, I haven't the faintest clue what exactly is going to change for whom.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 20, 2021, 12:26:07 PM
Yeah, without knowing the ins and outs for each VAT registered business, not zero rating does seem like a mistake. But I'm sure they have their reasons.

There won't be a handling charge if a company registers with the IOSS. That company will collect VAT on your order at your local rate. It'll be just like purchasing something from your own country (from a VAT reg business at least). When the foreign company posts the order, they'll include their IOSS number on the packet, which means it will go through customs and be released without anything needing to be paid. That's for packages up to 135 Euro only though (inc postal costs). Above that and the company won't collect VAT, your local postal service or courier will and they'll charge their handling fee.

Some of us are also still waiting for it to be clear how various commercially available shopping carts are going to cope with charging VAT on orders below 150 euros/£135 and not charging VAT on orders over that value, by country, as well as waiting for the ability to sign up for IOSS. :)

It's also not necessarily true that a company that signs up for IOSS won't levy a handling charge, because some will no doubt look at the time and hassle involved and charge for it. But probably not as much as the mail companies do!

One thing that was clear from the moment VAT changed for digital products that it would change at some point for physical products. Even some of us tiny one-man businesses have been more than aware of, and written about it, for years, and made business decisions accordingly.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 20, 2021, 10:56:17 PM
It's also not necessarily true that a company that signs up for IOSS won't levy a handling charge, because some will no doubt look at the time and hassle involved and charge for it.

So they'd voluntarily sign up to having to file VAT returns etc only to implement a policy that would discourage EU customers from placing an order? I mean, it's an option but...  :P
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 21, 2021, 08:58:04 AM
So they'd voluntarily sign up to having to file VAT returns etc only to implement a policy that would discourage EU customers from placing an order? I mean, it's an option but...  :P

They’ve only got to charge a smaller amount than most EU postal or courier services do for it to be more attractive.  :) And it can be built into the delivery charge so it doesn’t stand out. Once a business works out how many working hours it takes to do the paperwork, and that work ties up a person, a charge becomes inevitable.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: zemjw on January 21, 2021, 09:04:52 AM
BBC article on the subject this morning - link (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277). The interesting/scary aspect is that the couriers all seem to be adopting different approaches.

Quote
Royal Mail, for example, is charging an £8 fee it says "reflects the cost of clearing items through customs and presenting them to Border Force".

Meanwhile, delivery firm DHL says it is charging UK customers 2.5% of the amount paid to clear customs, with a minimum charge of £11.

Mail and freight company TNT is also adding £4.31 on all shipments from the UK to the EU and vice versa. It has said this reflects the increased investment it has had to make in adjusting its systems to cope with Brexit.

It will eventually all settle down and become the new normal, but "may you live in interesting times" flashes to the front of my mind far too often these days  o_o
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Westfalia Chris on January 21, 2021, 12:14:48 PM
They’ve only got to charge a smaller amount than most EU postal or courier services do for it to be more attractive.  :) And it can be built into the delivery charge so it doesn’t stand out. Once a business works out how many working hours it takes to do the paperwork, and that work ties up a person, a charge becomes inevitable.

This, definitely. I'd happily pay a moderate charge (5-10 GBP flat or a incrementally decreasing percentage of order value) if it means the package is delivered directly and it saves me a 40 mile round trip to the closest customs office during working hours.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 21, 2021, 12:46:58 PM
They’ve only got to charge a smaller amount than most EU postal or courier services do for it to be more attractive.  :) And it can be built into the delivery charge so it doesn’t stand out. Once a business works out how many working hours it takes to do the paperwork, and that work ties up a person, a charge becomes inevitable.

Fair enough, a business can charge whatever they want, whatever works for their business.

To be clear, when I said there was no handling charge, I was specifically referring to the lack of a handling charge from the postal service. If a business want to replicate that handling charge in some form, go right ahead; it's still collected at the point of sale. But that's very much a business decision, rather than a consequence of the IOSS.

I want to replicate as closely as possible the situation for the EU customer when the UK was a member of the EU. That will require me to register with the IOSS, and it will make sense for me to also register for UK VAT at the same time (so EU customers aren't paying 17-27% more than all other customers). Both those things will require a total adjustment of my pricing, along with deciding how to handle sales on which VAT is not collected. Personally, I think it will be better for me to factor IOSS admin costs into that overall adjustment, rather than to levy a surcharge to EU customers only.

For businesses that are already UK VAT registered, they'll have to decide if the admin costs of the IOSS justifies a surcharge, or whether the increased sales (or rather matching sales from the time when we were in the EU) compensates for the extra costs. If you want to maximise EU sales, as surcharge doesn't help, I don't think that can be disputed.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 21, 2021, 01:11:29 PM
I think most eu customers would absorb a moderate increase in shipping charges that would compensate the manufacturer for extra time and charges if they do register in July ,rather then face excessive courier processing charges and double vat
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 21, 2021, 01:26:36 PM
Double VAT‽ If there’s still a VAT-registered British company refusing to remove VAT for export customers, I suggest you name and shame them. If such beasts exist, I doubt they’ll be in the export business for very long.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 21, 2021, 01:44:17 PM
Most websites who are vat registered have it on their site or it’s easy enough to check on the uk vat register , if they are not charging at zero vat than your will receive a double whammy
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 21, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Double VAT‽ If there’s still a VAT-registered British company refusing to remove VAT for export customers, I suggest you name and shame them. If such beasts exist, I doubt they’ll be in the export business for very long.

There are loads. They're not refusing to remove VAT on exports, they have a different net price for exports and are zero-rating VAT on those orders (unless they just put everything through with UK VAT so they don't have to get proof of postage on all exports).

There could be many reasons why they're doing this. Warlord are doing so because they are sending parcels Delivery Duties Paid, avoiding later costs to the customer. But Warlord are not collecting EU (or UK) VAT at the point of sale on those orders, Warlord are getting a bill (inc VAT and fees) from their shipping company at a later date. GW are doing the same I believe, certainly Forge World are.

For others not using DDP, I suspect it's a UK-in-the-EU hangover from having a different net price for all location for which VAT was zero-rated, ie anywhere not EU up to Dec 31st 2020. Their net price to zero-rated locations equals the gross price to the UK. They've been trading on those terms for years and would be a big change to have a consistent net price to all locations. Unfortunately, this sucks hard for EU customers (just like it would have sucked for, say, Norwegian customers). EU customers are effectively (but not in reality) charged VAT twice only compared to a UK customer who was charged a lower net price in the first place.

If a business has had a single net price to all locations prior to leaving the EU, I suspect they're continuing that practice now, which benefits EU customers in that they're not effectively (but not in reality...) charged VAT twice.

(I'm not VAT registered so no VAT is collected from anyone, so don't name and shame me, thanks)

Edit: Perhaps those businesses which do not have a single net price to all locations are just treading water until July when they plan to register with the IOSS. If they switch to a single net price now, they will lose 16.7% of their revenue on all export sales. Given the size of the US market in particular, this would be a big hit and maybe a temporary hit to EU sales (which are hit anyway due to postal handling fees) is a better option.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on January 23, 2021, 08:32:29 PM
Well new government advice is for UK businesses to set up in the EU, so the problem should be a non issue soon.  lol
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: pixelgeek on January 23, 2021, 09:43:43 PM
Well new government advice is for UK businesses to set up in the EU, so the problem should be a non issue soon.  lol

That was literally what some businesses are doing

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/a-brexit-nightmare-the-british-businesses-being-pushed-to-breaking-point
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 23, 2021, 09:59:42 PM
Amazing .. thats worse than I ever expected
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 23, 2021, 10:25:00 PM
I bettwe remind everyone, again, to keep this thread on the topic of practical implications of the Brexit situation. However tempting it may be, any turning this thread into a question of political responsibility and it will, as stated in the forum rules, be shut down faster than you can say ”VAT absorption”.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on January 24, 2021, 12:48:38 AM
I bettee remind everyone, again, to keep this thread on the topic of practical implications of the Brexit situation. However tempting it may be, any turning this thread into a question of political responsibility and it will, as stated in the forum rules, be shut down faster than you can say ”VAT absorption”.

My bad!
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 24, 2021, 01:16:52 PM
My original post was about manufacturers being unprepared , is it worth asking manufacturers who are present on here to outline what they are doing as regards vat customs etc , it would help a lot of gamers and hobbyists in EU
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 24, 2021, 02:04:59 PM
My original post was about manufacturers being unprepared , is it worth asking manufacturers who are present on here to outline what they are doing as regards vat customs etc , it would help a lot of gamers and hobbyists in EU

I'll be voluntarily registering for UK VAT (I'm nowhere near the threshold to compel that) and registering with the EU VAT Import scheme when it launches in July, so I can collect EU VAT at point of sale and my EU customers will not incur a handling fee from their postal service. It's not necessary for me to register for UK VAT in order to register for EU VAT but it makes sense to do so, otherwise EU customers would be paying 17-27% more than anyone else.

Other than this, there is no option for me aside from clearly warning EU customers that their orders may be subject to VAT and a handling fee. I can't collect VAT on EU orders until July and I don't have access to DDP services that the likes of Warlord and Forgeworld are using. I'm not currently VAT registered so I can't zero-rate export orders. To be honest, I had hoped to be VAT registered before the end of 2020, but 2020 happened and for various reasons, I feel it's best for me to coordinate UK VAT registration with EU VAT registration as closely as possible.

Edit, one more thing: I'll need to switch my webshop over to a new ecommerce platform - one that allows for the collection of EU VAT only up to order values of 150 Euro. My current ecommerce provider shows no likelihood of offering such a facility.

So... lot of work to do before July!
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 24, 2021, 03:45:17 PM
Thanks for the specific details so who’s next ? We know your out there :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on January 24, 2021, 04:12:22 PM
okey dokey -

I'm way too small to be VAT registered for the time being, plus Mammoth miniatures is technically a side line of my art practice since that's what I'm officially self employed as.

So no price changes for the time being, no major postage increases and so far I've had no issues with orders being held up/charged when going into the EU.
I'll need to have a think about how I do things over the coming months but I'm basically too small at this point to really implement any major changes.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 24, 2021, 05:22:15 PM
I'm not VAT registered but am reducing the vast majority of prices throughout my webshop.

Posted above.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 24, 2021, 05:56:59 PM
Who’s next ?😀
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 24, 2021, 06:55:19 PM
Who’s next ?😀

Fighting 15s is VAT registered and has been since 2007. It made importing a lot easier at the time. :) I am currently deducting VAT for EU customers, and in theory it is being collected instead by the various mail services.

When it becomes possible to register for the EU’s IOSS, I will look at it and evaluate whether the bookkeeping and hassle is worth it for a one-man business. It’s all very well being idealistic about registering to save EU customers the hassle of border taxes and collection charges, but rest of the world customers live with that anyway and I’m not employing someone just to do VAT. My daughter lives in Sweden, speaks Swedish fluently, and so that country would be my preferred option for VAT registration in the EU.

As for which U.K. businesses are registered for VAT, it is a legal requirement to have your VAT number on your e-commerce site (I stick it in the footer so it is clearly visible on all pages, plus tax shows pretty clearly in the shopping cart in the total breakdown). As is all too apparent, a number of VAT registered wargames businesses do not comply with the law, and have carts that don’t show VAT, making it hard to distinguish them from non-registered businesses.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 24, 2021, 07:52:07 PM
I suppose the reality is a lot of the companies out there are one man bands , and there is a lot of technical and logistical issues to be overcome , like any business ,choices will be made based on the financial implications , I’ve enjoyed wargaming for 47 years , this is the first time that the real world has impacted on my hobby ,  I will get used to the new regime , I will make my purchases more selective , using European distributors more and my wife may get that new bathroom quicker than she thinks😂😂
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 25, 2021, 08:08:06 AM
My bad!

Oh, I had not anyone in particular in mind. after xx years as an admin on this forum one gets a subtle feel for when a thread starts sliding in the wrong direction. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: cp models on January 26, 2021, 05:38:27 PM
I am not VAT registered and do have a news section with current details of the situation regarding EU orders on the site

Rather more problematic is knowing whether people have seen and read it, hopefully they have :D

For a small one band outfit like me I doubt that I shall register for EU VAT in July, to be honest the extra paper work sounds like a nightmare and I hate the paper work I already have to do, so dont want more

Online market places are a possible solution but they have their own problems, so will look into this option if it becomes necessary as an extra option for EU customers

I would be interested in any feedback from any one who has ordered from us recently from the EU, did you get charged or did it make it through okay, always interested in feed back

Hope this helps

Mark
Cp models   



 
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 27, 2021, 08:30:44 AM

Online market places are a possible solution but they have their own problems, so will look into this option if it becomes necessary as an extra option for EU customers

 
One of the sillier aspects of the new U.K./EU rules on import tax is that they’re intended to catch big sellers on the marketplaces, but also potentially making small businesses jump into the arms of the marketplaces to cope with the paperwork.

However, the costs of the marketplaces aren’t attractive if you already have an online shop and an extensive range of products. Take eBay: to run an eBay shop listing up to 1500 products costs £69 a month. That’s almost what my new e-commerce shop costs in a year, although is comparable to what I used to pay with my former supplier. For a small business, it’s not really viable. Fine if eBay is your only shop, though, and there are smaller-scale options to test the water. Linking existing shop products to eBay also potentially costs extra if you use, say, plug-ins for Woocommerce.

And then there are eBay charges of 10% of final sale price. To cover those, you have to increase prices. So if you’re not already VAT registered, prices of your products will rise by that charge plus the 20 to 25% VAT to European customers. With a 30+ per cent increase in prices via a marketplace, for many orders it might still be better for EU customers to continue to buy via a small U.K. supplier’s own shop and bite the bullet on handling charges.

Fancy Amazon instead? You have to barcode every single product you sell (or did when I looked at doing it). Fine if you’re already geared up for that, but a great deal of work for a one-man business with a large number of figure codes. Amazon's professional selling service costs £25 a month but eliminates a 75p per item fee. Item fees are not kind to low-cost products.

The marketplaces are convenient and potentially give greater exposure, but they will just add to the cost of getting small manufacturers’ ranges to EU customers. Despite initially thinking that small non-VAT-registered businesses would be driven into the marketplaces’ arms by the new laws, I now believe it’s hard to see the price of doing so being attractive to either the manufacturers or the customers.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 27, 2021, 10:47:13 AM
I'm beginning to doubt now whether UK businesses will be able to use the IOSS without an intermediary - someone liable for unpaid tax in the EU. Despite the VAT agreement in the trade deal, but it might be the EU countries will require an intermediary anyway.

So that would scupper most of us using the IOSS, I'd imagine. Which is pretty depressing. No idealism here in wanting to sign up to it, just what's needed for my business.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 27, 2021, 11:10:44 AM
I'm beginning to doubt now whether UK businesses will be able to use the IOSS without an intermediary - someone liable for unpaid tax in the EU. Despite the VAT agreement in the trade deal, but it might be the EU countries will require an intermediary anyway.

So that would scupper most of us using the IOSS, I'd imagine. Which is pretty depressing. No idealism here in wanting to sign up to it, just what's needed for my business.

So with that level of gloom ;) cost-effective unit packs via the marketplaces sounds like a strong option.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on January 27, 2021, 11:28:39 AM
So with that level of gloom ;) cost-effective unit packs via the marketplaces sounds like a strong option.

I get the impression the scheme is optional even for marketplaces. So will Ebay, Etsy etc even use it? o_o
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 27, 2021, 11:38:25 AM
So will Ebay, Etsy etc even use it? o_o

If they can make money from it, they will.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on January 27, 2021, 04:04:08 PM
Just received my order from Eureka UK and no customs nor handling fees charged. It is a relatively small order (£41.00), and fit in a letter sized package. In April -if the f*c**ng pandemic doesn't cause any delays, that is!-, Flags of War will send me a larger order (£175.00), from its latest KS. I guess then I will be hit by customs, but who knows!

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 27, 2021, 06:04:11 PM
I just cancelled an order from amazon UK. It just never seemed to move after more than 3 weeks.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on January 27, 2021, 06:26:59 PM
I’ve decided to keep orders small for the minute from uk dealers , any orders have received in last week have hovered around the £20-25 mark and no charges so far , not sure what to read into that , I’m guessing the infrastructure is not in place to check every parcel...... yet ! I’ve also found distributors in Germany for larger orders as a possibility for the future
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on January 29, 2021, 02:56:30 PM
Parcel from the UK last Saturday £82.5 (p&p not included)  surcharge 39€ (me)
Parcel from the UK last Tuesday £90 (p&pp included) surcharge 45,5 € (Vincent) that's nearly 50%
Parcel from  the UK yesterday £100 (p&p included) surcharge 52 € (Marcel) again 50%!
Parcel from Germany Monday (225€) free p&p, no surcharge.
Parcel from Spain ( 989€) no p&p. still underway but should be here in a few days. No surcharge.
All of these figures manufactured in the UK.
 
This is beyond reasonable..
European retailers will probably do very good business as long as they are decently supplied, and given a reasonable retail discount,  but I'm afraid the UK as a direct supplier will simply dry up.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: OSHIROmodels on January 29, 2021, 03:11:34 PM
How were they sent? Normal, tracked, courier?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 29, 2021, 03:29:18 PM
This is beyond reasonable.

Those surcharges seem pretty steep. Can you break down of any of them for us?

It would be very interesting to see exactly how much is VAT, how much handling fee, how much duty etc.

What's a reasonable retail discount, Willie B?






Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on January 29, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Those surcharges seem pretty steep. Can you break down of any of them for us?

It would be very interesting to see exactly how much is VAT, how much handling fee, how much duty etc.

What's a reasonable retail discount, Willie B?

Also, whether the UK seller deducted VAT in the first place, and which customs codes (TARIC) - if any - they used in the customs declaration.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 29, 2021, 03:55:33 PM
This is beyond reasonable..

Which is why I asked for a sticky with links to EU manufacturers and retailers.

Mind you, I have great empathy for UK manufacturers, both large and small. The vast majority of my hobby purchases have come from the UK for decades. I'm pretty certain things will get better over time, but for the foreseeable future the best option for folks in the EU is to err on the side of caution.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 29, 2021, 04:03:49 PM
@WillieB
Are you based in Germany? Was the surcharged cause by our Customs Office because they checked it and send the parcel to you?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on January 29, 2021, 06:40:03 PM
How were they sent? Normal, tracked, courier?

Mine, the one with the 39€ surcharge came by DPD courier. Tracked.
I believe Vincent's one too.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on January 29, 2021, 06:44:45 PM
Those surcharges seem pretty steep. Can you break down of any of them for us?

It would be very interesting to see exactly how much is VAT, how much handling fee, how much duty etc.

What's a reasonable retail discount, Willie B?

I can give you a breakdown of mine. 14€ p&p, 16€ duty and 9 € handling costs.
I would have to ask Vincent and Marcel how theirs broke down.

As for  reasonable retail discount - it depends a bit on volume- but during my shopkeeping years I usually got anywhere between 30 and 44 %
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on January 29, 2021, 06:49:23 PM
@WillieB
Are you based in Germany? Was the surcharged cause by our Customs Office because they checked it and send the parcel to you?

No, I'm in Belgium. And as you can see it wasn't just me. In the meanwhile at least half a dozen more of my fellow wargamers in Belgium and the Netherlands have been 'hit' by these.
Only small parcels send by Royal Mail seem to fly under the radar.
But seriously, an added 50% in costs? 
So what is going to happen is very simple. if we can find an EU supplier ( even though his initial cost per figure is a bit higher) we'll still order. Ordering directly form the UK is a no- no.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 29, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
I can give you a breakdown of mine. 14€ p&p, 16€ duty and 9 € handling costs.
I would have to ask Vincent and Marcel how theirs broke down.

As for  reasonable retail discount - it depends a bit on volume- but during my shopkeeping years I usually got anywhere between 30 and 44 %
Thanks, but why are you paying for P&P on delivery rather than when you order? Is the €16 just duty or does it include local VAT?

Yes, I think a discount of around 40% for distributors is common across a number of industries. The problem, of course, is how to build the flexibility to offer that into your pricing without alienating your domestic customers.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on January 29, 2021, 07:16:16 PM
Thanks, but why are you paying for P&P on delivery rather than when you order? Is the €16 just duty or does it include local VAT?

Yes, I think a discount of around 40% for distributors is common across a number of industries. The problem, of course, is how to build the flexibility to offer that into your pricing without alienating your domestic customers.

Depends on the company. Most include the p&p when you order at checkout. Others (not many) ask for p&p separately. Probably because their software isn't up to calculating it at the time of the order?
The 16€ included the local VAT I guess, but the UK VAT wasn't deducted as the company in question operated under the £85.000 threshold.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 29, 2021, 08:12:26 PM
OK. It strikes me that the only change is that VAT and handling fees are now charged on imports into the EU from the U.K. and from the EU into the U.K.

There have been lots of posts about the U.K. to EU trade, but what are EU suppliers going to do to help their U.K. customers? Are they seeking local distributors? Should U.K. gamers be looking to start a list of domestic suppliers to buy from? I ask these questions to highlight the rabbit holes that some posters here might inadvertently take us down.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 29, 2021, 08:40:17 PM
OK. It strikes me that the only change is that VAT and handling fees are now charged on imports into the EU from the U.K. and from the EU into the U.K.

There have been lots of posts about the U.K. to EU trade, but what are EU suppliers going to do to help their U.K. customers? Are they seeking local distributors? Should U.K. gamers be looking to start a list of domestic suppliers to buy from? I ask these questions to highlight the rabbit holes that some posters here might inadvertently take us down.

Believe me, I look upon this as nothing but a bilaterally shit situation .
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on January 29, 2021, 09:12:59 PM
OK. It strikes me that the only change is that VAT and handling fees are now charged on imports into the EU from the U.K. and from the EU into the U.K.

There have been lots of posts about the U.K. to EU trade, but what are EU suppliers going to do to help their U.K. customers? Are they seeking local distributors? Should U.K. gamers be looking to start a list of domestic suppliers to buy from? I ask these questions to highlight the rabbit holes that some posters here might inadvertently take us down.

It seems at the moment there are no border checks for stuff from EU into UK. Therfore it should be no problem, but as mentioned before many haulers stopped serving the channel route, there might be a lack of transport.

And it feels like 90 % of all miniatures coming from UK, so you shouldn't worry getting toys.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: dijit on January 29, 2021, 10:12:11 PM
Well a report from things here in Denmark. We'll be paying a 160dkk (roughly 21.5€ or £19) handling fee, and then 25% VAT on the cost of the item and P&P. My experience ordering from the States is smaller parcels seem to often fly under the radar, but who you're hit, you can pay more than the cost of the contents, whilst larger parcels will certainly be hit. Right not it seems better to have a parcel sent to my brother in Birmingham who can then repackage it as a private parcel and send it on to me and pay double the postage.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on January 30, 2021, 12:48:04 PM
OK. It strikes me that the only change is that VAT and handling fees are now charged on imports into the EU from the U.K. and from the EU into the U.K.

There have been lots of posts about the U.K. to EU trade, but what are EU suppliers going to do to help their U.K. customers? Are they seeking local distributors? Should U.K. gamers be looking to start a list of domestic suppliers to buy from? I ask these questions to highlight the rabbit holes that some posters here might inadvertently take us down.

In a wider sense orders here are having similar issues - massive delays, sudden and inexplicably expensive customs charges etc.
I think however that the issue hasn't really hit the everyday consumer yet. supermarkets and certain specialist industries have already said they can no longer get things they need to keep operating as import costs from the EU have forced an end to trading from certain suppliers. we're still got goods held up in lorries waiting to be cleared.

I think more likely we'll find the impact on UK customers comes in a few weeks, when existing stockpiles of certain things run dry and restocks get delayed or become inaccessible.

As to miniatures - well alot of them are made here (the joys of being a rock made of tin.)so in hobby terms nothing will change for domestic wargamers right now. What migth change is all the nice extra hobby stuff we like will become harder to get/more expensive. Things like vallejo paints/mig pigments/corvus belli miniatures and all those lovely European diorama suppliers are likely going to find it hard to import without a UK distributor. Kingsley and Simple are the two biggest distros that i remember from ordering stock and they had trouble getting vallejo paints at the best of times...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 30, 2021, 04:48:05 PM
Believe me, K look upon the situation as nothing but a bilaterally shit situation.

As I have said before, economically, these are barriers to trade (similar to tariffs) designed to protect domestic producers. So let's be blunt.

All was well when the UK was inside the EU, but nobody seemed to care about US manufacturers trying to export their product to the EU/UK... which due to these same kinda barriers such as "handling charges" found it pretty much impossible to compete. In fact, when an American manufacturer came up with a cool idea and put it on kickstarter the very first "demand" was for a UK distributor to get around all the barriers to trade that the EU had in place to protect its manufacturers.

It appears to me that what we are seeing now is what US folks have had to deal with for decades. For example, how many folks in the UK/EU use Privateer Press P3 paints? The UK has barriers to trade to protect their manufacturers and are now faced with an EU which uses the same methods.

If UK folks want to sell their stuff in the EU at a reasonable price, they will have to have a distributor to do so, just as the US folks need to have a UK distributor to sell their stuff in the UK. The same goes for EU producers who will also need to have a UK distributor if they want to sell to the UK.

Welcome to the world of protectionism.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on January 30, 2021, 06:21:40 PM
As I have said before, economically, these are barriers to trade (similar to tariffs) designed to protect domestic producers. So let's be blunt.

All was well when the UK was inside the EU, but nobody seemed to care about US manufacturers trying to export their product to the EU/UK... which due to these same kinda barriers such as "handling charges" found it pretty much impossible to compete. In fact, when an American manufacturer came up with a cool idea and put it on kickstarter the very first "demand" was for a UK distributor to get around all the barriers to trade that the EU had in place to protect its manufacturers.

It appears to me that what we are seeing now is what US folks have had to deal with for decades. For example, how many folks in the UK/EU use Privateer Press P3 paints? The UK has barriers to trade to protect their manufacturers and are now faced with an EU which uses the same methods.

If UK folks want to sell their stuff in the EU at a reasonable price, they will have to have a distributor to do so, just as the US folks need to have a UK distributor to sell their stuff in the UK. The same goes for EU producers who will also need to have a UK distributor if they want to sell to the UK.

Welcome to the world of protectionism.

Well, there are substitutes to Reaper Paints and P3 on the European market. The problem we see now is that a lot of UK products are *without* obvious substitutes are becoming more expensive.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on January 30, 2021, 06:43:25 PM
Well, there are substitutes to Reaper Paints and P3 on the European market. The problem we see now is that a lot of UK products are *without* obvious substitutes are becoming more expensive.

I think regardless of the specific product, Rays point stands. Without wanting to drift too close to the political shore, The rhetoric of post brexit trade has for the last 4 years presented to UK businesses the idea that trade would be frictionless and that any protectionist measures would be implemented by the uk, and that the EU wouldn't DARE make the sensible and obvious decision to treat the uk like any other non bloc country. For quite a few businesses the reality that Britain does not in fact control global trade like it once did has only just hit home - and that reality has been masked by byzantine government awareness campaigns with no real info and a wider rhetoric about how great it'll be to export. the fact that we're an island and it's really easy to stop exports from an island was seemingly never planned for.

Still, there's a nice profit to be made in smuggling in the coming years.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 30, 2021, 07:08:58 PM
Still, there's a nice profit to be made in smuggling in the coming years.

This is also an opportunity for EU (and UK) distributors to expand operations. The UK, I think well do fine, as they have many distributors such as North Star which also sells products from the Americas (or at least Canada).

You all realize, of course, that protectionist policies are meant to drive up the prices of imports which not only protects manufacturers from foreign competition but also provides incentives for new manufacturing. It is the antithesis of free trade, however, as you insulate your country from competition which results in lower prices.

How this will all play out, I haven't a clue. But when we see the cluster f@#k occurring with trade of all kinds ATM sooner or later (due to far greater integration than either side realized, I believe) folks are going to have to stop insulting one another and work towards a solution.

In the mean time, we will all just have to make due as best as possible, and the only way forward that I can see is the use of distributors on both sides to ease the pain (because there will be increases in price no matter what if this continues).
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on January 30, 2021, 08:10:41 PM
What protectionist policies are you referring to?

Distributors can certainly ease the pain for customers. Remember though that manufacturers have to offer them a significant discount. Some will decide that the resulting business is not worth having.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on January 30, 2021, 08:58:11 PM
What protectionist policies are you referring to?

Duties and handling costs.

Distributors can certainly ease the pain for customers. Remember though that manufacturers have to offer them a significant discount. Some will decide that the resulting business is not worth having.

That is their choice. But remember if I can't buy a fine British whiskey because of its increased price or non availability, I will just buy a Spanish one. In fact, it would actually spur the production of premium Spanish whiskies to satisfy demand as they would not have to compete with British ones and almost certainly be cheaper. As a bar owner I can tell you that 30 years ago the Spanish almost always drank Spanish DYC whiskey and Larios gin. But over the years they now almost exclusively buy British products with very few drinking Spanish brands. This could change radically very quickly if this nonsense continues.

Usually in such circumstances "opportunities" are created by the vacuum... which entrepreneurs will exploit. Our market is no different than any other.

Overall though, it is a lose lose situation for everyone in the long run.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Westfalia Chris on January 30, 2021, 11:00:49 PM
No politics, please. Do try to keep this focused on proper procedural advice.

I'll lock this thread until tomorrow since there doesn't seem to be any actual new information forthcoming right now.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on February 01, 2021, 12:27:59 PM
I’ve made a few small orders now all a little bit above the 22euro limit , no customs or vat charges , I’ve made larger orders but only to eu distributers , only a couple of euros extra on UK price , Germany has a good few online retailers , hopefully they will be able to keep a good supply of UK manufacturers in stock
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: shandy on February 02, 2021, 08:40:36 AM
Hi,

just a quick report on the situation from Austria: Today, I received a parcel with miniatures from the UK with a value of £66. I payed charges amounting to 27.50 Euros. This is 37% of the value of the figures.

For me, that means that I will refrain from ordering from the UK as far as possible. If there are things I don't get elsewhere, I will think hard if I really need them. My hobby is going to get poorer in choice and/or much more expensive.

Will this be the end of the "golden age of wargaming"?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 02, 2021, 08:52:30 AM
Hi,

just a quick report on the situation from Austria: Today, I received a parcel with miniatures from the UK with a value of £66. I payed charges amounting to 27.50 Euros. This is 37% of the value of the figures.

For me, that means that I will refrain from ordering from the UK as far as possible. If there are things I don't get elsewhere, I will think hard if I really need them. My hobby is going to get poorer in choice and/or much more expensive.

Will this be the end of the "golden age of wargaming"?

I don't think it will. There will be adjustments on all sides in the next year or two. The laws of supply and demand, price elasticity, etcetera, etcetera... What generally happens is that new agile entrepreneurs create new temporary monopolies, be it a local production chain, a clever way to absorb increased costs of import or companies registering in a more beneficial region.

For the consumer (us non UK citiziens with a taste for UK goods) it will mean that we will get less for our hobby money for a while but overtime we to will adjust.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on February 02, 2021, 10:02:41 AM
It has taken a package sent by a mate in the UK over two weeks to get to Germany and we still do not have it yet or know if there will be additional costs. Postage was more than what he paid in the past.

The company handling the fulfillment of the Hagglethorn Hollow Kickstarter by Tabletop Troubadour has stated they are experiencing problems with their new depot partners in Germany which is going to cause even further delays.

https://www.shipquest.co.uk/blog/eu-blog-january-27th

At this stage my wife and I are holding off from further purchases from the UK. Considering how much of our hobby is produced by UK companies, I for one feel the “a golden age” of gaming has come to a close but perhaps there will be another in the future. Ending free trade between the UK and the EU was always going to hurt me, which is one reason I was so vocal against Brexit.

Buying from the UK has for me turned into the same kind of headache as buying from the States.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 02, 2021, 10:18:25 AM
Don't think the Golden Age is over, but manufactures in England, Scotland and Wales have to find a way how to sell their stuff in the EU withour all this trouble for the customer, otherwise they will loose a lot of money.

It might need a year or more, but I'm sure they will figure it out.

Until then I will order only in NI or from shops in the EU. But because of Brexit panic I have enough stuff to paint for the next 5 years. It might be an opportunity the reduce my lead mountain a little bit. 
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on February 02, 2021, 11:35:59 AM
The golden age might not be over, but the focus might shift away from the largely cottage industry British scene twoards more EU based producers. Not a bad thing at all, but it might mean we rock dwellers and up with a more insular hobby.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on February 02, 2021, 03:34:35 PM
Anybody have any news about how Foundry is handling all this?

Do they have a EU distributor?

I'd like to buy some paints.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on February 02, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
Anybody have any news about how Foundry is handling all this?

Do they have a EU distributor?

I'd like to buy some paints.

they don't seem to have put any info out on their site or facebook page.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on February 02, 2021, 04:58:44 PM
Anybody have any news about how Foundry is handling all this?

Do they have a EU distributor?

I'd like to buy some paints.

They are VAt registered so I assume they will deduct VAT on checkout...

Mike
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 02, 2021, 05:23:04 PM
They are VAt registered so I assume they will deduct VAT on checkout...

Mike

Doesn't look like it.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 02, 2021, 06:28:17 PM
They are VAt registered so I assume they will deduct VAT on checkout...

Mike

They charge flat-rate shipping for various world regions and don't deduct the VAT.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 02, 2021, 07:12:35 PM
I feel at this point it is appropriate to say that:

IF a UK business is VAT-registered AND it removes VAT for Rest of World (ROW) customers in the checkout, THEN the only extra charges anyone is paying are the collection fees for tax, plus any bizarre duty, such as third-country duty, or a commodity tariff that someone in a customs department may have randomly assigned, particularly if the sender specified the wrong TARIC (commodity code). If you're in the EU, you would have paid the VAT and the VAT on the delivery charge anyway: it's just happening at a different point in the process. Your perception of just how much is extra charge is caused by having all those elements charged at a point in the process where it didn't exist before. It's annoying but it doesn't mean your figures are necessarily costing 40% to 50% more.

Some of us are nice UK businesses and remove the VAT for non-UK customers because we take the trouble to get the proof of posting that HMRC needs for us to be able to legally deduct the VAT.

The exceptions are non-VAT-registered UK businesses, where yes, in the EU your wargames products are now costing an extra 20+% depending on your country's standard rate VAT. And VAT-registered UK businesses that do not deduct the VAT because they use some fudge so that the VAT masks some of the extra cost of international deliveries. And VAT-registered UK businesses that do not deduct VAT because they can't be bothered to get the proof of posting for a shipment so they can legally deduct VAT to ROW customers.

So EU customers new to the idea of paying tax on imports from the UK should balance the shock of the charge against how much of it would previously have be paid in a different way.

Pre-Brexit, if you ordered £120 of products from a VAT-registered UK business, you'd have paid £100 plus £20 VAT, plus delivery and the VAT charge on delivery. Let's say delivery is £12, so that would break down as £10 plus £2 VAT. You had no VAT collection fee - Huzzah! Now, you'll pay that business £110, no VAT. But on import you have VAT due on that £110, which may if you're lucky still be only £22 (tough luck, Scandinavian countries, at 25% VAT). But you'll be charged for collecting that VAT. That charge varies, and is particularly hideous if your shipment has come by courier - especially, it seems, if that courier is DPD. Some couriers have just added massive extra charges to cope with collecting VAT: the mail companies by and large haven't. For a mail service such as, say, Sweden's Postnord, the collection fee is SEK75, or roughly £7.50; Deutsche Post charges 6 euros, or roughly £6. Those extra costs? A few extra per cent in the VAT rate and a collection fee largely amounting to 10 euros or less by normal post.

If you really don't want to get rooked by customs collection charges, buy from a UK VAT-registered business that deducts VAT for its RoW customers and that sends its orders by post, not courier. Keep your orders under 22 euros until 1 July, when that exemption disappears, or go large – but not too large, because you don't want your order sent by courier – to dilute the effects of the collection fee across a larger quantity of wargames items. Shop smart and be realistic about what that import charge actually represents compared with before. Perhaps talk to a company you're considering buying from first about their approach to VAT and delivery before ruling out ever buying from the UK again. Or read their FAQS. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on February 02, 2021, 07:56:06 PM
Thanks for posting this. Useful food for thought for us Brits buying from European suppliers too.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 02, 2021, 08:23:44 PM
Thanks for posting this. Useful food for thought for us Brits buying from European suppliers too.

ROW (inc EU) to UK e-commerce works very differently. I started a thread on it in this very sub forum.

 http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=129250.0 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=129250.0)

Btw, top post, Ian. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on February 02, 2021, 10:11:37 PM
Anybody have any news about how Foundry is handling all this?

Do they have a EU distributor?

I'd like to buy some paints.

One of the parcels I mentioned was from Foundry.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: anch_io on February 03, 2021, 08:49:41 AM
One of the parcels I mentioned was from Foundry.

I also paid 25+ pounds on VAT and handling, which made an order about 30% more expensive.  And I ordered the items on 18th Decemeber, which they have sent on 5th January.

When I asked them politely what happend and can they return to me the VAT I already paid in the UK, they stopped answering e-mails.

They will not see my money again.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 03, 2021, 12:09:45 PM

When I asked them politely what happend and can they return to me the VAT I already paid in the UK, they stopped answering e-mails.


Because the sale was before 1 January, they had to charge VAT on it. They won't refund it because it's money due to HMRC.

The potential risk of double-charging VAT - on purchase and on arriving in the EU on 1 January or later - is why some of us shut our shops to EU orders in mid-December. It's the risk any EU customer took if they ordered from a UK company at the time, given that any order might legally take 28 days to fulfil. Caveat emptor.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on February 03, 2021, 01:11:52 PM
The potential risk of double-charging VAT - on purchase and on arriving in the EU on 1 January or later - is why some of us shut our shops to EU orders in mid-December.

Is this a bug or a feature?

Since nobody seems to be up to it, I will probably start a thread on EU resources in the near future.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: anch_io on February 03, 2021, 01:54:38 PM
Because the sale was before 1 January, they had to charge VAT on it. They won't refund it because it's money due to HMRC.

I know they had to. Death and taxes and all that...

They also state on their webpages that “all orders are sent out in a day or two”. Beacause they did not do what they have promised I also had to pay my taxes (plus some “handling” extra).

And I am not angry because I had to pay it (I am not glad either), but because of the lack of communication on their part. I am aware of the situation we are living in. It was probably wrong of me to order so late, but hey, it was two weeks before “the deadline” - why not? Even with all the holidays and the quarantine, I think that someone could have found time to post it. Or, they could have at least sent an email saying “we are terribly sorry, because of the COVID situation we are running late with sending out orders, we cannot cast everything in time”. They also could have canceled the order, as the moment that I have received the confirmation on 5th I asked just the same, expecting this would happen (“oh no, it is already in the post but you can refuse it”). When I wrote back asking who than pays for the return postage and when will I receive my refund, they did not answer. When I received the bill from my customs, they also did not answer.

And I did not ask for the return of VAT, but for “partial refund”. After all, their tardiness and lack of communication led to extra costs on my side. And all of this could have been avoided.

Caveat emptor indeed... But what happened with “customer is always right”? Does not translate well in Latin?  :)

I guess I was just too much spoilt by the services from companies such as Warlord, North Star, PSC... Even Caliver answer to their e-mails.  :D

Ok, enough with my grievances... If anyone knows where in the Europe I could find Foundry’s stuff, I would be most grateful. I still really love their miniatures, even though their business practices are lacking...

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 03, 2021, 03:42:19 PM
Is this a bug or a feature?

Since nobody seems to be up to it, I will probably start a thread on EU resources in the near future.

It was a possibility. I wasn't sure whether it would happen, but I acted so that none of my EU customers would suffer. When you cast to order it's not always possible to turn round orders quickly at Christmas, plus with the world and its dog using internet shopping at the time the ability of the mail service to cope was also in doubt.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on February 03, 2021, 04:07:16 PM
...plus with the world and its dog using internet shopping at the time the ability of the mail service to cope was also in doubt.

Indeed. Port of entries seem to clogged all over the world causing lots of delays. Personally I haven't ordered anything in 2021 because of this problem, more than anything else.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 03, 2021, 04:10:31 PM

They also state on their webpages that “all orders are sent out in a day or two”. Beacause they did not do what they have promised I also had to pay my taxes (plus some “handling” extra).

And I did not ask for the return of VAT, but for “partial refund”. After all, their tardiness and lack of communication led to extra costs on my side. And all of this could have been avoided.

Caveat emptor indeed... But what happened with “customer is always right”? Does not translate well in Latin?  :)

Foundry states on its website: "So, while we generally get your order to you in a few days, for orders shipped within the UK you need to allow 21 days for delivery, 31 days for Europe and 6 weeks for all other destinations." Your order went in on a Friday and it is highly unlikely it would have been dealt with until the 21st (Monday) when most UK businesses would prioritise orders to the UK because they would be likely to arrive for Christmas. Foundry was also shut for Christmas from 24 December to 3 January inclusive, so clearly your order was dealt with as soon as possible after reopening. After mid-December, with last posting date to Europe gone (and one of the UK's internal last posting dates gone), and a courier delivery system bursting to overflowing with everyone using it for Christmas deliveries and Brexit-beating orders, you were, I feel, indeed chancing your arm.

Sorry, I read your statement “can they return to me the VAT I already paid in the UK” to mean something different from "And I did not ask for the return of VAT".

The customer is right never applies when anything involves HMRC or HMRC procedures. In those instances, HMRC is always right. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 03, 2021, 04:15:30 PM
Indeed. Port of entries seem to clogged all over the world causing lots of delays. Personally I haven't ordered anything in 2021 because of this problem, more than anything else.

Traditional post seems to be coping well enough, apart from the usual sticky countries in pre-pandemic times.  It certainly doesn't seem as slow as when the virus first hit, when 10 weeks to the US and 7 weeks to the EU was normal. Or at least the number of customers complaining that they can't believe it takes that long to get an order from one part of the UK to another country during a pandemic has dropped to zero. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on February 04, 2021, 01:21:55 PM
Well that package my mate sent on the 13th of Jan was finally available for pickup at our local depot here in Germany, with a lovely customs bill of around 25%.... taking about as long and making it about as expensive as getting things from the States. Joy.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 04, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
Well that package my mate sent on the 13th of Jan was finally available for pickup at our local depot here in Germany, with a lovely customs bill of around 25%.... taking about as long and making it about as expensive as getting things from the States. Joy.

That sounds about right. The UK is now treated no differently from the US by the EU. 25% isn't terrible, though. Did it arrive via Deutsche Post and what did they charge for tax collection?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on February 04, 2021, 01:40:09 PM
EDIT: Thinking on it, the slip they left yesterday for us to pick it up today was marked Deutsch Post. And I seem to recall there was a small fee in addition to the custom tax. Is that what you meant? I forget exactly how much it was but it was in the Region of a few Euros.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 04, 2021, 03:59:18 PM
EDIT: Thinking on it, the slip they left yesterday for us to pick it up today was marked Deutsch Post. And I seem to recall there was a small fee in addition to the custom tax. Is that what you meant? I forget exactly how much it was but it was in the Region of a few Euros.

Yes. As I tried to highlight a page or so ago, Deutsche Post has quite a low fee in comparison with other services. German standard rate VAT is 19% (?) - if you were due to pay VAT on the figures anyway pre-Brexit, because the UK supplier was VAT registered (but deducts it post-Brexit for export), then you've not paid too much extra. Slightly less tax (19% against the UK's 20%), plus a handling fee of 6.5 euros. The only real extra in this instance is the relatively small handling fee, plus the annoyance of having to pay tax and handling separately.

It's only bad if the UK supplier wasn't VAT registered, or didn't deduct the VAT for various reason (also outlined earlier).  Then you have paid 25% more! In which case, in future look for UK suppliers that are VAT registered and actually deduct tax for export (there are perfectly legal reasons why they may not).

After 1 July, look for UK suppliers who have registered for the EU's IOSS (Import One-Stop Shop) scheme and will prepay tax and therefore potentially eliminate the handling fee. There are, however, still not enough details of the IOSS scheme to determine how possible or worthwhile this will be. But Royal Mail Click and Drop, which a number of us use, already includes an entry for the EU's VAT pre-registration scheme, so the ground is clearly being prepared if not yet ready.

I'm just trying to put some perspective on the charges on import: in some cases in theory you're only a handling fee and an annoyance factor worse off. :) It just depends whether you would have paid tax anyway, i.e. at the point of purchase pre-Brexit.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 04, 2021, 04:09:13 PM

Ok, enough with my grievances... If anyone knows where in the Europe I could find Foundry’s stuff, I would be most grateful. I still really love their miniatures, even though their business practices are lacking...

Figures and paints, I believe, at https://www.miniaturicum.de
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on February 04, 2021, 04:44:00 PM
OK, now the light has suddenly come on. I am quite the dunce sometimes. Thanks for helping me understand this issue better.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: anch_io on February 04, 2021, 04:59:37 PM
Figures and paints, I believe, at https://www.miniaturicum.de

Thanks! Noticed that on the other topic... will certainly look them up...

Just a question - Warlord in their recent newsletter offered DDP (delivery duties paid) service to EU customers.  Is that part of IOSS scheme you’re talking about, or is that something completely different?

Does anyone know more?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 04, 2021, 05:57:05 PM
Thanks! Noticed that on the other topic... will certainly look them up...

Just a question - Warlord in their recent newsletter offered DDP (delivery duties paid) service to EU customers.  Is that part of IOSS scheme you’re talking about, or is that something completely different?

Does anyone know more?

Something completely different. DDP means their courier with tally up VAT due on import, duty if applicable and fees, and bill Warlord for the cost, rather than the customer.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 04, 2021, 10:30:59 PM
Thanks! Noticed that on the other topic... will certainly look them up...

Just a question - Warlord in their recent newsletter offered DDP (delivery duties paid) service to EU customers.  Is that part of IOSS scheme you’re talking about, or is that something completely different?

Does anyone know more?

No, that's something else. As far as I'm aware it in effect uses the freight company as a customs agent: the freight company handles the tax and bills Warlord for it. Customs agents are a cost beyond the means of most small wargames businesses and not really suited to those of us who post out orders via Royal Mail rather than use couriers. Andrew Rae (Statuesque Miniatures) probably knows more than I do about this. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 04, 2021, 10:46:50 PM
OK, now the light has suddenly come on. I am quite the dunce sometimes. Thanks for helping me understand this issue better.

NP. I'm basically just trying to illustrate when the charge on import is not as bad as it seems. You can still use some UK wargames businesses and not be much worse off in total compared with before 1 January.

The change of tax regime seems really bad for small UK wargames businesses that are not registered for VAT. Of course, they could register for VAT, but that wouldn't change the overall cost of their figures now to EU customers. Selling a pack of figures for £3 with no VAT is no different from them registering for VAT and then having to sell a pack at £3.60 including VAT and then deducting the VAT for EU customers – about 60p of tax will happen on that pack somewhere! Registering for VAT, however, would put up prices for UK customers – and UK customers might argue unnecessarily so. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 05, 2021, 01:58:44 PM
Andrew Rae (Statuesque Miniatures) probably knows more than I do about this. :)

 lol I doubt it, Ian! I'm just hovering up info trying to work out how to save my business. I didn't look into DDP much as my volume of packages isn't enough. Royal Mail are launching a DDP scheme soon though, but again, I can't use it.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on February 05, 2021, 02:12:08 PM
I'm just hovering up info trying to work out how to save my business.

The current situation is a continuation of what has been probably one of the worse years of my life. As I have said before with over 40 years in the hobby, the majority of my purchases have come from the UK. My hobby keeps me sane and now this.

 :'(
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 05, 2021, 02:21:17 PM
The current situation is a continuation of what has been probably one of the worse years of my life. As I have said before with over 40 years in the hobby, the majority of my purchases have come from the UK. My hobby keeps me sane and now this.

 :'(

February 2020 kicked it off with one storm blowing off my workshop roof, and the next storm filling the workshop with water. If I had known then that it would be the least of my troubles, I'd have laughed more at the time... Now, of course, with the new roof eventually in place and everything dry, whenever it rains I'm happy because the water isn't getting in. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 05, 2021, 02:27:33 PM
lol I doubt it, Ian! I'm just hovering up info trying to work out how to save my business. I didn't look into DDP much as my volume of packages isn't enough. Royal Mail are launching a DDP scheme soon though, but again, I can't use it.

I looked at DDP options. They're not viable for a small business, as it makes them vulnerable to open-ended charges at the say of the delivery company. Interested if you have a link for the Royal Mail one, if only so I can rule it out. :) International VAT collection is one of those things you'd hope could be integrated somehow one day with Click and Drop.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 05, 2021, 02:43:43 PM
I looked at DDP options. They're not viable for a small business, as it makes them vulnerable to open-ended charges at the say of the delivery company. Interested if you have a link for the Royal Mail one, if only so I can rule it out. :) International VAT collection is one of those things you'd hope could be integrated somehow one day with Click and Drop.

There you go: https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid (https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on February 05, 2021, 03:37:25 PM
The worst one yet? Parcel ( padded envelope)  from Front Rank. Net worth £34 surcharge 37€ That's 101+ %! (Marcel)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on February 05, 2021, 03:46:51 PM
Industria mechanika , makers of lovely resin model kits, have declared that they're not shipping to the UK for the foreseeable future in part due to this issue:
With PayPal now charging sellers to refund customers, I have (hopefully temporarily) removed the UK entirely from my list of countries to ship to rather than simply cancel/refund the under 135GBP valued orders which is just about every order anyway from there. I will not be a tax collector for the UK. The costs outweigh the benefits/small amount of sales from there. I've got enough headaches and crap to do tax-wise with the US. Not my circus. Not my monkeys. Not anymore.
And before someone gets mad at me about it, try to remember that I am not a UK citizen and have zero power there. That's on the UK citizens so if you're one of them, contact your representatives and yell at them instead of the victims of the intentional result of brexit xenopobia. Thank you.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on February 05, 2021, 05:01:04 PM
Next one. Victrix £42 surcharge 38,5 € ( Johan)
This is getting completely out of hand I'd say.
Surcharges in the first few weeks were between 39 and 52%. Now we've already had some going near AND over 100%
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 05, 2021, 05:11:07 PM
There you go: https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid (https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid)

Thanks. I looked at the charges and volume requirements. With a minimum spend of £5000 pa plus prices per parcel for the service of anything from £6.70 to £17.45 (£9.70 for Belgium, WillieB!), I assume on top of tracked and signed delivery in the initial iteration of the service, I think it's fair to say it's not viable for small businesses, nor for their EU customers. On the plus side, it is linked to Click and Drop.

I see it also hints that the IOSS system due in July will require the seller to use an intermediary, again making this route unviable. Still can't tell until more details are forthcoming.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 05, 2021, 05:18:29 PM
Next one. Victrix £42 surcharge 38,5 € ( Johan)
This is getting completely out of hand I'd say.
Surcharges in the first few weeks were between 39 and 52%. Now we've already had some going near AND over 100%

Hi Willie, They're shocking, but unless you can break down the charges into VAT, customs duty if any, and collection fee, and detail the delivery service used (mail or courier) and the TARIC declared on the customs form, they don't, unfortunately, allow sellers like me to understand why.

Both Front Rank and Victrix are VAT registered, so I assume VAT has been deducted in their carts and you have therefore paid it on import. You'll also pay VAT on the delivery charge on import. Before Brexit you'd have paid the VAT on the product and on delivery in the shopping cart. So what's key is how much is being charged by which delivery company to collect the tax and whether you are being charged extra duty.

The handling fee will always disproportionately affect the percentage for small orders (e.g. not much over 22 euros) compared with large orders.

Update: I just searched for and found bpost's handling fee: it's a massive 24 euros for any package under 150 euros, and 32 euros for any package over 150 euros. You are always going to get caned by your own country's handling fees for modest orders arriving by post. I'm surprised you buy anything in from outside the EU. :(
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on February 05, 2021, 06:43:31 PM
Hi Willie, They're shocking, but unless you can break down the charges into VAT, customs duty if any, and collection fee, and detail the delivery service used (mail or courier) and the TARIC declared on the customs form, they don't, unfortunately, allow sellers like me to understand why.

Both Front Rank and Victrix are VAT registered, so I assume VAT has been deducted in their carts and you have therefore paid it on import. You'll also pay VAT on the delivery charge on import. Before Brexit you'd have paid the VAT on the product and on delivery in the shopping cart. So what's key is how much is being charged by which delivery company to collect the tax and whether you are being charged extra duty.

The handling fee will always disproportionately affect the percentage for small orders (e.g. not much over 22 euros) compared with large orders.

Update: I just searched for and found bpost's handling fee: it's a massive 24 euros for any package under 150 euros, and 32 euros for any package over 150 euros. You are always going to get caned by your own country's handling fees for modest orders arriving by post. I'm surprised you buy anything in from outside the EU. :(

Hi Nick,
yes, it's going from bad to horrible. Problem lies with the courier services and to a lesser degree customs who actually can now 'demand' any handling fee they want.
As you know we're already compiling a list of EU traders on another thread on this forum, as I'm I'm afraid orders from the UK will dry up completely. So sad....
Going to a British wargames show is also a bit of a dead end as the maximum allowed at Customs is 390€
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: AKULA on February 05, 2021, 07:02:29 PM
Industria mechanika:

That's on the UK citizens so if you're one of them, contact your representatives and yell at them instead of the victims of the intentional result of brexit xenopobia.

Interesting marketing tactic...labelling potential customers as xenophobic
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Spinal Tap on February 05, 2021, 07:18:01 PM
Interesting marketing tactic...labelling potential customers as xenophobic


It does read like he's been the victim of some grief from a lovely Brit or two though.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 05, 2021, 08:50:05 PM
Hi Nick,
yes, it's going from bad to horrible. Problem lies with the courier services and to a lesser degree customs who actually can now 'demand' any handling fee they want.
As you know we're already compiling a list of EU traders on another thread on this forum, as I'm I'm afraid orders from the UK will dry up completely. So sad....
Going to a British wargames show is also a bit of a dead end as the maximum allowed at Customs is 390€

It’s Ian, but I’ve been called Nick so many times because of my link with Eureka, that I’m used to it 🙂

Handling fees in The Netherlands are only 13 euros for standard post (17.5 euros for registered). You’d be better off shipping to a friend across a nearby border. Still twice the charge of Germany, though.

Best, Ian
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on February 06, 2021, 09:10:24 AM
It’s Ian, but I’ve been called Nick so many times because of my link with Eureka, that I’m used to it 🙂

Handling fees in The Netherlands are only 13 euros for standard post (17.5 euros for registered). You’d be better off shipping to a friend across a nearby border. Still twice the charge of Germany, though.

Best, Ian

Sorry IAN!!!!!!  :D

Really don't think this is a solution. Plenty of Dutch gamers being 'hit' wit the same extortionate rates.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on February 06, 2021, 12:19:39 PM
This is a new one on me , a company I deal with a lot has this on its site

All non UK shipping includes an additional £6 charge as a minimal postage cost.

That’s on top of a 17% postage and packing

It discourages small orders  to EU for sure
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on February 06, 2021, 12:43:55 PM
I queried it and got the following explanation.

Quote
We have added the £6 additional postage instead of a % increase on the postage for 2 reasons.
Since we have removed VAT, the total order cost  of course is less. As we work out postage cost on total order costs this is would have left us out of pocket on postal charges.
If we had upped the % costs from 17% to 25% this would have made larger order postage really expensive to customers. As it is , we are still taking a small hit on small orders.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 06, 2021, 01:24:59 PM
I, for one, am not keen on spending a whole lot of time at calculating and guessing what the bottom line will be when I put in an order.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: WillieB on February 06, 2021, 10:57:10 PM
I, for one, am not keen on spending a whole lot of time at calculating and guessing what the bottom line will be when I put in an order.

And that is the really annoying thing about it all.

You put in a order for say £82 + 9£ p&p and you end up paying 131€. Or worse...as in some cases.
No more UK orders from me for the time being. Neither will many (any?)  of my wargaming friends.
 I'll try to source my toys from EU dealers. And what I can't obtain... oh well...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 07, 2021, 07:01:34 PM
There is no good substitutes for a lot of wargames stuff which is manufactured in the UK at the moment. I am monitoring my local retailers, hoping they can absorb at least a part of the import fees.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 07, 2021, 09:09:14 PM
And that is the really annoying thing about it all.

You put in a order for say £82 + 9£ p&p and you end up paying 131€. Or worse...as in some cases.
No more UK orders from me for the time being. Neither will many (any?)  of my wargaming friends.
 I'll try to source my toys from EU dealers. And what I can't obtain... oh well...

Believe me, Willie, we small UK wargames businesses are looking at options. But only the EU’s IOSS system from 1 July offers a glimpse of hope, provided it does not require us to appoint an intermediary. If it does require one, then it’s a non-starter.

Delivery duties paid (DDP), due shortly from Royal Mail, is impractical for the small business with low sales to Europe, plus is expensive. Royal Mail requires a volume of more than £5000 of sales a year to the EU, and the system is only initially for tracked and signed parcels. For Belgium the cost is £9.70, plus a £5 fee, and tracked and signed adds almost £5 to delivery for a parcel that normally costs £9 to send (750g). So the premium to have your import tax paid in advance is almost £20. You still also have the VAT, collected at the point of sale in the shopping cart. In short, compared with Belgium post’s VAT collection fee of 24 euros, there is minimal saving.

So how about using the marketplaces to handle tax? Amazon is a complete no-no. I note that rather than be bothered to handle VAT collection to EU buyers itself, it now requires U.K. sellers to send items DDP to their EU customers. This causes the same cost issues I’ve just outlined.

EBay is a possibility. However, it’s not economic for small value items because of listing costs, final sales percentages, and eBay shop costs. Not for small businesses. We could do it by listing larger bags of figures instead of standard small packs, in effect using the sales model that Old Glory has used for years. But prices would necessarily have to be higher. I for one am still looking at this route, but want to know the full tax implications on exports before trialling it.

Best, Ian
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on February 08, 2021, 03:13:59 AM
Believe me, Willie, we small UK wargames businesses are looking at options. But only the EU’s IOSS system from 1 July offers a glimpse of hope, provided it does not require us to appoint an intermediary. If it does require one, then it’s a non-starter.

Why is an intermediary a non-starter?

Here in Spain we have co-ops for businesses only... especially small businesses.

BTW... for somebody like GW, as they have distributors all over the EU, I would imagine that they are going to see price increases, but not in the order of magnitude some folks are talking about direct buys from the UK. Do you think that will be reflected in their web sites on line?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 08, 2021, 07:43:44 AM
Why is an intermediary a non-starter?

Here in Spain we have co-ops for businesses only... especially small businesses.

BTW... for somebody like GW, as they have distributors all over the EU, I would imagine that they are going to see price increases, but not in the order of magnitude some folks are talking about direct buys from the UK. Do you think that will be reflected in their web sites on line?

Why? Cost. They’re not free.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ray Rivers on February 08, 2021, 03:26:02 PM
Why? Cost. They’re not free.

True... however, not much is.

Perhaps an EU Co-op which serves as a point of sale to EU customers could be made to handle the paperwork for a small commission on sales from the UK.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 08, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
There is a story going around in German wargaming forums that a guy running an online shop visited a logistic center oft a certain large logistic company and a person told him that more and more containers from uk piling up, because of a lack oft manpower and error s in the paper work. And its getting worse. He doesn't expect bis parcels from UK in the next 4 weeks, despite there nicht be already in Germany.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: AKULA on February 08, 2021, 05:19:10 PM
There is a story going around in German wargaming forums that a guy running an online shop visited a logistic center oft a certain large logistic company and a person told him that more and more containers from uk piling up, because of a lack oft manpower and error s in the paper work. And its getting worse. He doesn't expect bis parcels from UK in the next 4 weeks, despite there nicht be already in Germany.

No offence but that is possibly the vaguest post I’ve read on LAF  lol
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 08, 2021, 07:04:26 PM
No offence but that is possibly the vaguest post I’ve read on LAF  lol

No offence taken  lol
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 08, 2021, 10:01:33 PM
Now I got the source for the rumour concerning the backlog at the lostistic site.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1930367923768756&id=839599902845569 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1930367923768756&id=839599902845569)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on February 08, 2021, 10:31:59 PM
I wonder if that is why it's virtually impossible to find a decent selection of the Frostgrave plastic box sets at any of the EU traders currently.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 09, 2021, 05:56:50 AM
I wonder if that is why it's virtually impossible to find a decent selection of the Frostgrave plastic box sets at any of the EU traders currently.

Not true. Alphaspel.se in Stockholm is very well stocked (no pun!) on almost all Frostgrave plastic kits.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 09, 2021, 07:30:40 AM
And its the cardboard

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55878062
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Storm Wolf on February 09, 2021, 07:34:24 AM
And its the cardboard

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55878062

Yep Amazon has it all :o
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on February 09, 2021, 11:01:12 AM
Not true. Alphaspel.se in Stockholm is very well stocked (no pun!) on almost all Frostgrave plastic kits.

Thanks, had not heard of that store before.  Sadly their €50 minimum shipping to here for a €29 box of figures is somewhat out of my price range. :?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 09, 2021, 11:12:17 AM
Thanks, had not heard of that store before.  Sadly their €50 minimum shipping to here for a €29 box of figures is somewhat out of my price range. :?

Oh shit... Well I can see that. Swedish shipping is generally overpriced, but I feel there is something wrong with that estimate.

A box measuring a 220x180x70 mm, weight up to 2 kg should cost something like 18 euro. Do they force tracking and insurance?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 09, 2021, 11:14:46 AM
And its the cardboard

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55878062

Yup, it's a problem. I'm having to source boxes from different suppliers as my regulars are affected by work restrictions brought on by Covid, not necessarily the cardboard drought. Fortunately, I don't need as many boxes as I used to nowadays. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: robh on February 09, 2021, 01:04:52 PM
Oh shit... Well I can see that. Swedish shipping is generally overpriced, but I feel there is something wrong with that estimate.

A box measuring a 220x180x70 mm, weight up to 2 kg should cost something like 18 euro. Do they force tracking and insurance?

Courier delivery only to Spain. For some reason they have crossed Spain (and Czech Republic) off their €18 postal list. I was after 2 boxes but got that shipping charge so took 1 box out of the order but the shipping cost did not change.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 09, 2021, 01:08:44 PM
Courier delivery only to Spain. For some reason they have crossed Spain (and Czech Republic) off their €18 postal list. I was after 2 boxes but got that shipping charge so took 1 box out of the order but the shipping cost did not change.

Unfortunately I only visit Stockholm sporadically or I could help you out.

They are really nice people so if you have a smidgen of English I am sure you could give them a call and try to sort out an alternate mode of shipping. *If* you think it is worth your trouble.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on February 10, 2021, 10:36:56 AM
Just wanted to express my gratitude to Ian, Andrew and others in this thread for the insightful comments, especially the "behind-the-scenes" stuff of the processes and considerations us simple customers might not be aware of. These are confusing times, so the offered information has been most helpful.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 10, 2021, 03:05:52 PM
Just wanted to express my gratitude to Ian, Andrew and others in this thread for the insightful comments, especially the "behind-the-scenes" stuff of the processes and considerations us simple customers might not be aware of. These are confusing times, so the offered information has been most helpful.

Thanks.

I was trying to work out what the various handling fees were for the different EU postal services, but most of the sites don't seem very forthcoming with that information. The absolute worst so far is Belgian post (24 euros, 32 euros for shipments of 150+ euros), then Dutch post (13 euros, 17.5 euros for express mail), Austria is at 10 euros, Sweden at 75SEK (7-ish euros) and then bargain basement Germany at 6 euros. The UK's Royal Mail charge by comparison is £8, which we all grumble about but it could be worse. Our friends in the Low Countries seems particularly saddled with postal services out to make a lot of money from collecting VAT, which is why the Tin Soldiers crew are howling so much.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 10, 2021, 03:40:46 PM
I was trying to work out what the various handling fees were for the different EU postal services, but most of the sites don't seem very forthcoming with that information. The absolute worst so far is Belgian post (24 euros, 32 euros for shipments of 150+ euros), then Dutch post (13 euros, 17.5 euros for express mail), Austria is at 10 euros, Sweden at 75SEK (7-ish euros) and then bargain basement Germany at 6 euros. The UK's Royal Mail charge by comparison is £8, which we all grumble about but it could be worse. Our friends in the Low Countries seems particularly saddled with postal services out to make a lot of money from collecting VAT, which is why the Tin Soldiers crew are howling so much.

It's a nightmare, isn't it! I wanted to put together a list of the fees and VAT threshold for each country, as apparently to full comply with EU rules everyone in the world who sells to an EU customer has to make it easy for that customer to work out exactly what they'll pay overall. The best source (unverified but hopefully accurate) is that Royal Mail DDP page, as that has the VAT threshold and basic DDU fees, but not the fees for higher value packages that you've found.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on February 10, 2021, 04:43:09 PM
I was trying to work out what the various handling fees were for the different EU postal services, but most of the sites don't seem very forthcoming with that information. The absolute worst so far is Belgian post (24 euros, 32 euros for shipments of 150+ euros), then Dutch post (13 euros, 17.5 euros for express mail), Austria is at 10 euros, Sweden at 75SEK (7-ish euros) and then bargain basement Germany at 6 euros. The UK's Royal Mail charge by comparison is £8, which we all grumble about but it could be worse. Our friends in the Low Countries seems particularly saddled with postal services out to make a lot of money from collecting VAT, which is why the Tin Soldiers crew are howling so much.
6 whole euros in Germany? Ha!
May I present to you the very competitive rates of the Finnish postal service (Posti): €2.90.
A bottle of wine may easily cost you a tenner and the standard VAT rate may be 24%, but turns out there's one thing that's actually cheap here.
(Appears to be independent of the value: https://www.posti.fi/en/customer-support/receiving/import-clearance/handling-fee-for-items-requiring-customs-clearance
Also appears to be absent from the Royal Mail info Andrew referred to from what I could see; not sure why, but anyway, here it is.)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 10, 2021, 04:47:34 PM
6 whole euros in Germany? Ha!
May I present to you the very competitive rates of the Finnish postal service (Posti): €2.90.
A bottle of wine may easily cost you a tenner and the standard VAT rate may be 24%, but turns out there's one thing that's actually cheap here.
(Appears to be independent of the value: https://www.posti.fi/en/customer-support/receiving/import-clearance/handling-fee-for-items-requiring-customs-clearance
Also appears to be absent from the Royal Mail info Andrew referred to from what I could see; not sure why, but anyway, here it is.)

Bargain! That info wasn't on the Royal Mail page as apparently they don't do DDP to Finland, so didn't list the fee. Cheers for letting us know.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 10, 2021, 05:12:17 PM
Just wanted to express my gratitude to Ian, Andrew and others in this thread for the insightful comments, especially the "behind-the-scenes" stuff of the processes and considerations us simple customers might not be aware of. These are confusing times, so the offered information has been most helpful.

Indeed. It is a situation none of us is happy is happy with, so I am grateful that people on “both sides of the border” are chipping in to make things clearer.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 10, 2021, 05:13:02 PM
6 whole euros in Germany? Ha!
May I present to you the very competitive rates of the Finnish postal service (Posti): €2.90.
A bottle of wine may easily cost you a tenner and the standard VAT rate may be 24%, but turns out there's one thing that's actually cheap here.
(Appears to be independent of the value: https://www.posti.fi/en/customer-support/receiving/import-clearance/handling-fee-for-items-requiring-customs-clearance
Also appears to be absent from the Royal Mail info Andrew referred to from what I could see; not sure why, but anyway, here it is.)

That is quite low. :)

I've done a bit more digging and can add France 15 euros, Denmark 160DKK (21-ish euros), Italy 7.5 euros and Portugal 8 euros. Nothing to topple Finland yet.

I can say only two things about Finland. I was in Helsinki on holiday two years ago, and the only place anyone recommended that we go and see was the railway station (it does have a quite striking Olympic stadium, which was still being renovated then). Second, never go drinking with Finnish people: I did it once and I think I was lucky to find my hotel again afterwards. Oh, and I have some very good customers there who I hope, with import tax collection fees that low, I will keep.  :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Storm Wolf on February 10, 2021, 07:32:46 PM
That is quite low. :)

I've done a bit more digging and can add France 15 euros, Denmark 160DKK (21-ish euros), Italy 7.5 euros and Portugal 8 euros. Nothing to topple Finland yet.

I can say only two things about Finland. I was in Helsinki on holiday two years ago, and the only place anyone recommended that we go and see was the railway station (it does have a quite striking Olympic stadium, which was still being renovated then). Second, never go drinking with Finnish people: I did it once and I think I was lucky to find my hotel again afterwards. Oh, and I have some very good customers there who I hope, with import tax collection fees that low, I will keep.  :)

Helsinki, Yeah you nailed it! I just about managed to find my hotel, but was so bladdered I almost couldn't get into my room.
The penalties of a free bar :D ;D lol
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: pogo on February 11, 2021, 12:43:54 PM
Just got hit by the Brexit bug
Ebay auction of 131£, 36€ customs, 24€ handling for Belgium post
so a 40% extra
after 10 years at a rate of 2 auctions a month, this is the end for me
will do with the stock I have
Alex
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 11, 2021, 01:54:20 PM
Just got hit by the Brexit bug
Ebay auction of 131£, 36€ customs, 24€ handling for Belgium post
so a 40% extra
after 10 years at a rate of 2 auctions a month, this is the end for me
will do with the stock I have
Alex

Hi Alex, As we've discovered and discussed earlier, Belgium post has the highest handling charge of any EU country (Denmark and France are close behind) at 24 euros. Brexit may have caused it, but your postal service is spanking you into the bargain. :)

I thought that eBay was supposed to handle VAT and handling itself as one of the marketplaces targeted by the new UK and EU rules. From what I can see, you get a customs form generated by eBay to stick on outgoing parcels so that VAT and handling is dealt with by eBay. Did your seller not use it? Or did something else happen?

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 11, 2021, 07:23:32 PM
Anybody ordered from Northern Ireland, especially Aventine, since the fun started?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Arrigo on February 12, 2021, 04:44:15 PM
I did, and I am waiting the lead... I will let you know how it turns out.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on February 12, 2021, 06:40:35 PM
I did, and I am waiting the lead... I will let you know how it turns out.

Waiting for your input! I am looking to those Byzantines of theirs with desire (despite the annoying stirrups!)...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Arrigo on February 15, 2021, 01:46:19 PM
My order from Aventine arrived today. No VAT or additional taxes. 

Right now I have received two books from Helion with 4% VAT and the 7.50 custom fee (at the end of the line not that big hassle, I am using to receive wargames from USA), and a box from Warlord with duties already paid. Waiting miniatures from Museum and Victrix.

Best,
Arrigo
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on February 15, 2021, 03:59:50 PM
Thanks Arrigo! So it seems NI works according to the new rules.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fanis on February 15, 2021, 08:06:30 PM
I've got a big package coming from NI myself (OnTabletop) and I checked the tracking number again today and it's marked as having arrived in the country but currently in Customs...I see no reason why it should go through Customs and OnTableTop did post an announcement saying they have had cases of customers who have had customs trying to scalp them despite NI's status under the Northern Ireland Protocol.

In any case, patience and I will know soon enough I suppose. Will let you chaps know. Fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on February 17, 2021, 11:12:17 AM
Now from the other side: yesterday I sent a package to a customer in Northern Ireland -county Antrim- and no paperwork whatsoever. The postal office took the package, put the label with the declared value -34.99 euros- and that was it. Less than a minute. Actually, I sent another package at the same time but to Italy and the procedure was exactly the same.

To be honest, the process was as smooth as you can desire. Haven't sent to mainland Britain, though, so I don't know if they will make more hassle with the shipment.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on February 17, 2021, 01:47:43 PM
To be honest, the process was as smooth as you can desire. Haven't sent to mainland Britain, though, so I don't know if they will make more hassle with the shipment.

If you sell to a GB (not NI) customer - assuming you're not selling through Ebay, Etsy and the like - you must* register for UK VAT, and if the order value is less than £135, you must collect UK VAT at the point of sale. Bit more hassle, I guess.

*Usual enforcement caveats apply.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Arrigo on February 18, 2021, 05:36:29 PM
Go my order from Museum Miniatures, Z Sculpts... cracking good. And reasonable VAT paid at the postman. So far buying in UK from Italy is still doable.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ranthony on February 18, 2021, 06:39:21 PM
If it's of any help to anyone posting to the EU, I just sold 2 painted 28mm figures to a guy in France on the 11th for £50 including postage, delivered today with failed delivery yesterday.
No additional fees outside of the 10.50 postage despite declaring their worth at the post office.

If I've got it right, there's a fee only if the goods are above a certain value, which shouldn't hinder personal sales that don't draw the attention of Le taxman.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: tomrommel1 on February 19, 2021, 10:22:46 AM
Got a parcel from Great Britain yesterday 18€ customs and handling. This gets quite expensive !!
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on February 19, 2021, 10:27:37 AM
What was the value of the contents
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Dr. Zombie on February 19, 2021, 10:47:50 AM
I recently got an order from Pendraken the order was 33£ Paid 5£'ish VAT and 22£ ransom (handling charges) to the Danish postal service.

That extortion fee the post charges really is what does it for me. I will be ordering from places in europe from now on or in bulk from the UK. I am afraid that might leave out a lot of the smaller one man band operations. Unless they have something that I really cannot live on without.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on February 19, 2021, 08:35:01 PM
I’m just keeping orders small under the threshold
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Dr. Zombie on February 19, 2021, 10:11:43 PM
The threshold in Dk is 8£ so that is not really an option either.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 21, 2021, 07:04:31 PM
The threshold in Dk is 8£ so that is not really an option either.

That's just great.  :?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: tomrommel1 on February 22, 2021, 07:04:38 AM
My order ha a value of about 100pounds sterling. So a 18% surcharge for customs and handling  :(
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on February 22, 2021, 07:31:50 AM
My order ha a value of about 100pounds sterling. So a 18% surcharge for customs and handling  :(

Given that German VAT is 19% and the postal service’s handling fee is 6 euros, you’ve not really paid much more than if you had to pay U.K. VAT at 20%. Unless, of course, your seller isn’t registered for VAT and didn’t deduct 20% VAT for the export. Compared with customers in Belgium paying 24 euros handling fee and 21% VAT, you’re laughing. :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fanis on February 22, 2021, 11:07:01 AM
Yep. Package from NI stopped at customs and they are now asking for fees/vat and the lot. I have appealed the decision but I am not hopeful.

Those of you who got your packages from NI without trouble which prefix was used in your invoices/shipping labels please? Was it GB or XI?

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/2021-brexit-top-50-faq.pdf

To explain why I am asking; from what i read here (go to page 9) the XI prefix should be the one used. In my package GB was used and I suspect that may be the reason customs is being difficult.

I may of course be entirely wrong/off the mark.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on February 23, 2021, 07:44:36 AM
Waiting for some small orders from the UK: TAG, Bicorne and Warbases. I know for sure that TAG is not VAT registered (Pete confirmed it in an email), but can't remember if Bicorner or Warbases are, although I suspect they aren't. For past experiences with the Spanish Postal Service -stuff from the USA- handling fees are 10€, which added to 21% VAT (if charged) will rise up quite a bit the price of the stuff I bought. I fully expect that the order from Warbases is not stopped (it is a very small order, and can fit in an envelope comfortably), but not sure what will happen with TAG and Bicorne. Maybe I should start buying using my action figures shop -technically, I can- which means that at least I can deduct any VAT charged at customs, at least until the system to calculate and collect VAT at the point of purchase is implemented in July.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: bluewillow on February 26, 2021, 06:08:05 AM
Ok, parcel got through today from the UK declared €40 value plus at €10 in value including post, which is €10 above the limit of €40 for France. Nothing to pay La Poste.

Have my Perry pre order arriving this week expect to pay €35 plus on the £118 order.

Cheers
Matt
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on February 26, 2021, 07:02:38 AM
16 Euro order of magnetic sheets, ordered from the UK Jan 2nd to a total of 16 Euro including p&p. Today I was hit with local VAT and fees for an additional 17 Euros so *that* fucking sucks.
I know its a familiar tune, but I for one can benefit from knowing that it is relentless.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on February 26, 2021, 09:55:58 AM
Please note that from March 1st we will be VAT registered and deducting VAT for all overseas customers.  Paint prices have gone up slightly but not the full 20% so they will be slightly cheaper for overseas sales...

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Jagannath on February 26, 2021, 05:05:09 PM
Sorry all haven't followed this whole thread closely but has anyone had recent (say late Jan onwards once things settled down) with Deep Cut mats direct to the UK? I think they're vat registered here but not sure - going to order anyway, just wondered how stung I'll get?!
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Belgian on February 27, 2021, 02:07:36 PM
Sorry all haven't followed this whole thread closely but has anyone had recent (say late Jan onwards once things settled down) with Deep Cut mats direct to the UK? I think they're vat registered here but not sure - going to order anyway, just wondered how stung I'll get?!

You can also order them through Element Games in the UK.

https://elementgames.co.uk/wargames-and-miniatures/gaming-and-accessories/gaming-mats/deep-cut-studios
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on March 01, 2021, 06:10:21 PM
My order (~ 100 €) from Aventine just arrived via air mail here in Germany. No additional VAT, customs trouble and handling fees.

NI is still European Union.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Arthur on March 03, 2021, 09:04:40 PM
Yep. Package from NI stopped at customs and they are now asking for fees/vat and the lot. I have appealed the decision but I am not hopeful.

Those of you who got your packages from NI without trouble which prefix was used in your invoices/shipping labels please? Was it GB or XI?

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/2021-brexit-top-50-faq.pdf

To explain why I am asking; from what i read here (go to page 9) the XI prefix should be the one used. In my package GB was used and I suspect that may be the reason customs is being difficult.

I may of course be entirely wrong/off the mark.

Theo, you might want to have a look at the Aventine FB post linked below. I am not sure this explains what happened to your parcel but it might provide a clue (dunno if Royal Mail made the same mistake with Greece though) :

https://www.facebook.com/AventineMiniatures/posts/3749912355091863 (https://www.facebook.com/AventineMiniatures/posts/3749912355091863)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Nordic1980s on March 04, 2021, 11:29:52 AM
Alphaspel.se in Stockholm is very well stocked (no pun!) on almost all Frostgrave plastic kits.
For continental Europeans looking for non-UK hobby shops I can fully recommend Swedish Alphaspel (also the brick and mortar shop), German Battlefield Berlin, Italian Mirliton (ex-Grenadier fantasy and scifi, plus historical) and the various French and German sellers of the ebay.fr and ebay.de. With the latter two it might be possible to pay by a simple euro bank transfer - just ask to have this possibility.

In theory Ireland too should count here for mainland Europeans. In practise their logistic routes via England seem to have been at least partially messed up, for I have still to receive a Prince August order from Ireland sent out before last Christmas. It may arrive some day, for when the virus thing began to spread first time it took literally half a year for some of the stuff to arrive from abroad.

I still plan to mail order hobby stuff from the UK, but am more strict about it as to what to order and when. Still remember the days of 1990s when I could buy foreign UK or USA made fantasy hobby products and miniatures at normal prices from local book shops despite no internet, EU or Euro currency, so in theory it shouldn't be a hassle this time either.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Jagannath on March 04, 2021, 11:33:22 AM
You can also order them through Element Games in the UK.

https://elementgames.co.uk/wargames-and-miniatures/gaming-and-accessories/gaming-mats/deep-cut-studios


Thanks - I've actually ordered a bunch of custom 30cm square mats via their excellent print on demand service. Let's see - had the UPS notifications and stuff, no mention of cost yet. I think they are VAT registered meaning should be OK.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Hammers on March 04, 2021, 01:59:13 PM
Bying Oathmark figures at one of two major stores  in Stockholm is still quite alright: pretty much exactly the same price as ordering it from North Star plus you dont pay p&p, fees and all that other delivery hassle.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fanis on March 05, 2021, 03:23:12 AM
Theo, you might want to have a look at the Aventine FB post linked below. I am not sure this explains what happened to your parcel but it might provide a clue (dunno if Royal Mail made the same mistake with Greece though) :

https://www.facebook.com/AventineMiniatures/posts/3749912355091863 (https://www.facebook.com/AventineMiniatures/posts/3749912355091863)

Some mistake has definitely happened somewhere along the way Arthur and you have my thanks for alerting me to this link. It may very well be what happened with my order. I have argued and argued with customs over here but to no effect and am now waiting for an exact bill so I can decide whether I want to pay it or not. I doubt I will want to, as it was a very large order and I don't fancy paying another 100 euro on top of it. Very unfortunate but to be fair these sort of teething problems are only to be expected...I am trying to be positive and not heap my frustration upon Brexit :-)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on March 05, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
Package received from The Assault Group and neither taxes nor handling fees have been charged. With this make three packages received from the UK since Brexit -Warbases, TAG and Eureka UK- and none of them have been stopped. So far, so good.

But I still have two packages pending: one from Bicorne Miniatures and one from Flags of War KS (in April, hopefully). I am more or less confident that Bicorne's will pass undisturbed, but don't think I will be that lucky with the one from Flags of War, as it w¡ll pass comfortably over the 150 euros threshold. If it is not stopped I will count my blessings, but I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Jagannath on March 05, 2021, 09:21:02 AM
I still don't know about costs but I did get a UPS notification saying my deepcut mats were delayed in Poland specifically mentioning brexit. We'll see - I guess there's a backlog.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ogrob on March 05, 2021, 09:50:51 AM
I am now two for two on fees from the UK after Christmas. A small parcel from Antediluvian and a somewhat bigger one from Footsore. These being regular Royal Mail airmail does not seem to have helped at all. Handling fee isn't too bad, but as far as I can tell neither seller was able to deduct VAT in the UK so I think I got hit with double VAT charges.

Certainly going to have to be more restrictive with my UK orders from now on. Shame about the really small shops who lack EU stocktists, like Claymore Castings and the like.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Citizen Sade on March 05, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
It doesn’t appear that Antediluvian is VAT registered. Footsore is though. Worth asking them to deduct VAT on your future orders?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Ogrob on March 05, 2021, 12:14:04 PM
It doesn’t appear that Antediluvian is VAT registered. Footsore is though. Worth asking them to deduct VAT on your future orders?

Yeah, will have to make sure on future orders.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on March 05, 2021, 01:39:11 PM
My purchase from Bicorne have been delivered, and again no taxes nor handling fees. Apparently, Spain is taking easy the post-Brexit regulations. I am cautiously optimistic.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on March 05, 2021, 03:57:37 PM
Be carefull ordering at Amazon. I thought I was careful, but either it wasn't properly marked or I was to stupid but while ordering at the German Amazon site, I ordered a book from an trader in England. I hope it get through without customs.

And in an article about Brexit was mentioned that the German customs officers go especially after packages marked as gift. It seem the old trick doesn't work anymore.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Dolmot on March 05, 2021, 04:33:11 PM
Be carefull ordering at Amazon. I thought I was careful, but either it wasn't properly marked or I was to stupid but while ordering at the German Amazon site, I ordered a book from an trader in England. I hope it get through without customs.

Many countries have a reduced VAT rate for books. I think it's 7% in Germany. Sometimes it has provided a "loophole" because the amount of tax would be negligible and thus below some threshold. For example, we've had exemptions for less than 10€ or 5€ of tax to be collected, making it possible to order a larger pile of books or other articles with reduced VAT. However, if there's only a threshold for the value of goods, it's possible that you end up paying a hefty processing fee for a negligible amount of VAT. No idea how it works over there. :-I
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Nordic1980s on March 09, 2021, 09:12:10 PM
In theory Ireland too should count here for mainland Europeans. In practise their logistic routes via England seem to have been at least partially messed up, for I have still to receive a Prince August order from Ireland sent out before last Christmas.
With the Prince August stuff from Ireland finally arriving (4 months), it seems the postal mess from Ireland via UK to continental Europe has been sorted.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on March 12, 2021, 05:44:34 PM
Just received  this from warlord games  all I can say is ouch!!!!

Hello Warlorders,

As you may have already noticed, we have had to make some changes to the way we handle shipping to your destination recently.

Firstly, I want to give some background as to why we have introduced these changes. We know just how important our products are to our customers. We have been inundated with messages (especially of late during the Covid-19 pandemic) about how the hobby we love had helped with a stress release, meditation, mental health or some other form of therapeutic benefit. This makes us happy beyond words and we are so proud and humbled to provide you some kind of comfort, especially in these challenging times.

This means that we place a lot of emphasis on ensuring our products pass freely across borders as smoothly as possible. Since Jan 1st we have adopted a policy of only selling our products into Europe as DDP (duties paid), meaning that you, our loyal customers, don't pay any additional customs fees when your orders reach you. However, as a result of this, we have unfortunately seen a large spike in costs in shipping to certain areas of the world.

The solution below is our way of ensuring change isn't felt too strongly in any one region, but fundamentally these changes are required to allow us to continue to be profitable in these areas:
EuroZone
Orders to the EU will be subject to a minimum order value of 50 EUR. Orders below this amount will not be able to be processed. A shipping fee of 24 EUR will be applied at checkout on all orders under 150 EUR. Orders of over 150 EUR will offer free courier shipping.

All orders between 50 EUR and 150 EUR will have the option to select a free box of one our best selling plastic sets during the checkout process to help offset the cost of shipping.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Jagannath on March 13, 2021, 12:41:38 AM
Man, what a mess.

My deep cut order arrived cost free (though was delayed a few days in Poland abs Germany) so I think whatever deep cut have done (vat registered in UK I think) is working well.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on March 13, 2021, 09:43:17 AM
Just received  this from warlord games  all I can say is ouch!!!!
It's something isn't it!
Admittedly, I had been thinking of not ordering directly from them when they announced they'd switch to UPS for EU deliveries (who are bad at the best of times, and terrible at the worst of times around here), but this seals the deal. Flat-out not accepting smaller orders and strongly incentivizing very large ones (for anything just over €50, the €24 represents too big an increase in costs, but once you're over €100, you might as well add some extra things to cross the €150 threshold). Couldn't care less about a free plastic set to be honest, I can't even remember the last time they released a new plastic kit for their ancients ranges, and I've got all the decade-old Roman and Celtic sprues I'll ever need.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on March 13, 2021, 12:38:23 PM
It's something isn't it!
Admittedly, I had been thinking of not ordering directly from them when they announced they'd switch to UPS for EU deliveries (who are bad at the best of times, and terrible at the worst of times around here), but this seals the deal. Flat-out not accepting smaller orders and strongly incentivizing very large ones (for anything just over €50, the €24 represents too big an increase in costs, but once you're over €100, you might as well add some extra things to cross the €150 threshold). Couldn't care less about a free plastic set to be honest, I can't even remember the last time they released a new plastic kit for their ancients ranges, and I've got all the decade-old Roman and Celtic sprues I'll ever need.

Euro 24 for shipping may seem steep, but Belgian customers would pay that to their post office just to collect the VAT, on top of delivery. So for any EU country where the VAT collection fee is high, Warlord’s approach is quite reasonable.

The thing about delivery duty paid services is that they’re expensive. They don’t necessarily save the customer very much: they simply avoid the shock of getting a separate VAT bill and collection fee when the order arrives in their country.

With the first guidance on the EU’s IOSS now available - non-EU businesses can register from 1 April - I can’t honestly say the situation will improve, because the guidance states that an intermediary in the EU is normally needed to take responsibility for the VAT liability. And an intermediary will only be extra expense that may be beyond small businesses.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on March 13, 2021, 03:38:01 PM
I live in the Republic of Ireland , if I order from a Vat registered company like a gripping beast I pay zero vat plus postage ,then at my end I will pay the vat plus 8€ Processing from An Post  , I can live with that for sure , but 25€ from Warlord is a bit steep , perhaps like some other companies you could be given the option to use a courier which in Ireland would mean a charge of 28€ or the regular postal system which I mentioned is 8€
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Coenus Scaldingus on March 14, 2021, 09:47:25 AM
Alright, I suppose relatively speaking it is a bargain for our Belgian, Hungarian and Danish friends compared to the incredibly overblown costs their own postal services charge! For smaller orders, this €24 would however easily double the shipping costs here (normally €5-10 from the UK, plus €2.90 handling costs), made worse by the minimum order value (which taken on its own already really irks me).

Given the high handling costs of couriers mentioned earlier in this thread, I do indeed wonder how much of a factor those are within this €24, since WG insists on using courier services exclusively.

If this is simply the new reality that may become the norm over the next year for other companies too, Brexit will certainly shake up the traditionally UK-centric market of wargaming even more than I would have expected. Hopefully Miniaturicum, Battlefield Berlin and other distributors will start carrying more of their ranges; assuming their prices won't be too badly influenced by all this. Warlord Games is presumably one of the larger players in this field, and if this is what they seemingly have to resort to...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Kitsune on March 14, 2021, 02:58:46 PM
So, I’m considering an order of some stuff and have found it’s a french company that produce them - one man operation. Should I just avoid buying then, as I don’t wanna get stiffed with a huge unexpected charge?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on March 14, 2021, 07:56:02 PM
So, I’m considering an order of some stuff and have found it’s a french company that produce them - one man operation. Should I just avoid buying then, as I don’t wanna get stiffed with a huge unexpected charge?

Are you in the UK? If you keep the order under £135 you won’t be charged anything after you make the purchase. Royal Mail* no longer collect VAT under that value.

However, as soon as a foreign seller makes an e-commerce sale to a UK consumer, they must register for, collect and pay UK VAT. To not do so is, by HMRC's definition, to commit VAT fraud. But as I said, Royal Mail are not stopping packages valued at less than £135, so they will not collect unpaid VAT from the end consumer as used to be the case. They will collect import VAT, duty and fees from the consumer if the package is over £135.

The new UK VAT system is no longer comparable to the EU system when it comes to imports, so this thread does not apply to UK consumers.

*don’t know how couriers are handling VAT non-compliance.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on March 17, 2021, 04:18:41 PM
My Osprey Men-At-Arms (~13€) mistakenly ordered at Amazon UK came without customs and trouble as a letter to Munich.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Kitsune on March 20, 2021, 12:46:57 PM
Are you in the UK? If you keep the order under £135 you won’t be charged anything after you make the purchase. Royal Mail* no longer collect VAT under that value.

However, as soon as a foreign seller makes an e-commerce sale to a UK consumer, they must register for, collect and pay UK VAT. To not do so is, by HMRC's definition, to commit VAT fraud. But as I said, Royal Mail are not stopping packages valued at less than £135, so they will not collect unpaid VAT from the end consumer as used to be the case. They will collect import VAT, duty and fees from the consumer if the package is over £135.

The new UK VAT system is no longer comparable to the EU system when it comes to imports, so this thread does not apply to UK consumers.

*don’t know how couriers are handling VAT non-compliance.

Thanks. I am in the UK, yes. Decided against the purchases in the end as I can’t be bothered with all the “maybe?” elements of purchasing from the EU.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on April 26, 2021, 01:31:07 PM
It seems the ordering for privat customer gets a little bit faster now.

But if you order at German online shops and they have to restock, you have to wait much longer than last year.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: AndrewBeasley on April 26, 2021, 08:00:10 PM
Are you in the UK? If you keep the order under £135 you won’t be charged anything after you make the purchase. Royal Mail* no longer collect VAT under that value.


I'm interested in what will happen for sales via eBay as regs change throughout this year.  I've just been quoted an £11 VAT and processing fee by eBay for a £25 'buy-it-now' item - at first I thought it was postage but a double check shows postage was on top of this - end up nearly double the cost to order via eBay.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Duncan McDane on April 27, 2021, 09:05:38 AM
Let's hope that the people in charge on both sides of the pond understand that a custom free trade zone benefits all of us, especially the not-VAT registered smaller business like so many in our hobby are. Hope's still up voor July but we'll see.
Anyway, so far politics. If the situation stays "as is" it will become much more attractive to hop across the pond once or twice a year to go shopping. And it might be an idea to get adresses or storage room on both sides where our treasures can be held until collected by the owner... Just pondering because we all rather spend our cash on more figs than on tax & duty ( on top of tax & duty ).  :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Leunstoelgeneraalbd on April 27, 2021, 01:52:11 PM
I noticed that Salute this year is organized on November 14th. So I am now thinking to spend at least one week in London (together with my better half, of course) and spend one day on Salute to pick up previously ordered (and paid for) miniatures. Throw away the packages, put the lot in a shoebox or something and claim you brought them to Britain and tried to sell them unsuccesfully IF some custom officer was VERY curious. Of course we would choose for going by train, not by airplane, but we wanted to do that anyway. Incidentally: I received small orders (below GBP 20.00 all in) save, from Peter Pig and Lancashire Games.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on April 27, 2021, 05:17:35 PM

I'm interested in what will happen for sales via eBay as regs change throughout this year.  I've just been quoted an £11 VAT and processing fee by eBay for a £25 'buy-it-now' item - at first I thought it was postage but a double check shows postage was on top of this - end up nearly double the cost to order via eBay.

This happens:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/paying-items/paying-tax-ebay-purchases?id=4771&amp;st=2&amp;pos=2&amp;query=Paying%20tax%20on%20eBay%20purchases&amp;intent=tax (https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/paying-items/paying-tax-ebay-purchases?id=4771&amp;st=2&amp;pos=2&amp;query=Paying%20tax%20on%20eBay%20purchases&amp;intent=tax)

Nothing is changing for UK VAT throughout this year - the UK VAT reg came into force on Jan 1st and are entirely separate and functionally quite different from the forthcoming EU VAT regs.

Edit: Should add, it seems that EBay's Global Shipping Program isn't as user friendly for buyers. I think that's what you experienced. If the seller doesn't use the Global Shipping Plaform, you see the net price including UK VAT when browsing Ebay. With the GSP, you only see the VAT at checkout.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: AndrewBeasley on April 29, 2021, 11:51:39 PM
This happens:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/paying-items/paying-tax-ebay-purchases?id=4771&amp;st=2&amp;pos=2&amp;query=Paying%20tax%20on%20eBay%20purchases&amp;intent=tax (https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/paying-items/paying-tax-ebay-purchases?id=4771&amp;st=2&amp;pos=2&amp;query=Paying%20tax%20on%20eBay%20purchases&amp;intent=tax)

Nothing is changing for UK VAT throughout this year - the UK VAT reg came into force on Jan 1st and are entirely separate and functionally quite different from the forthcoming EU VAT regs.

Edit: Should add, it seems that EBay's Global Shipping Program isn't as user friendly for buyers. I think that's what you experienced. If the seller doesn't use the Global Shipping Plaform, you see the net price including UK VAT when browsing Ebay. With the GSP, you only see the VAT at checkout.


I would have thought that:
If additional tax is applicable on your eBay purchase, you'll see this indicated on the listing page and the tax amount will be shown on the checkout page, before you pay.
should show zero so I dropped the sale.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on April 30, 2021, 07:26:15 AM
Why would it be zero?
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 04, 2021, 07:19:53 AM
After six months and several (small) orders from UK companies, my experience with customs has been positive. Or at least, not a terror story. I have put six orders, plus one Kickstarter, with manufacturers in the UK. The only order that was charged customs was the KS, and it was a big order (184 GBP), so I assumed it would be charged. I paid 47.10 euros in taxes and extra postal charges, which was, more or less, what I had calculated/expected.

That is the positive part. The negative? Well, that some smaller companies in the UK will, probably, stop supplying their EU customers from 1st July, when the new system of VAT charging is implemented. According to some of the owners I have been talking to, the profits will not, at the present, compensate the costs and headaches of selling in the EU. My guess is that only those companies that are VAT registered will continue selling to the EU, in the time being. Smaller ones will not find profitable registering for VAT  to sell to jjust a few chaps over here.  :'(
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 04, 2021, 09:45:44 AM
It would be strange to just stop selling to the EU completely. The scheme to allow non-EU traders to collect EU VAT is optional - if it's not used on orders under 150 Euro, VAT and a handling fee is collected from the customer prior to delivery. So some customers might still choose to order despite this. Better to have the option for the occasional customer to buy something, than to stop sales completely.

Personally, I'll be opening an Etsy shop for sales to EU customers, as online marketplaces (Etsy, Ebay and Amazon, but not Kickstarter) must collect EU VAT. It's far from ideal, and prices won't match UK and ROW prices, but EU customers will avoid the handling fee.

There's also a pay-as-you-go scheme for traders that Royal Mail are pushing. It can't currently be implemented with my webshop, but apparently it's being considered for a future update.

Finally, I'm going to remain vaguely hopeful that the UK Gov hasn't been completely negligent, and gone and signed a cooperation agreement on VAT that doesn't allow UK traders direct access to the IOSS, compared to Norway's agreement that allows Norwegian traders access. Maybe it'll all work out in the end...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Kublaibenzine on June 04, 2021, 10:25:52 AM
I have continued buying from the UK, but it is a mixed bag here in Belgium. Some items come through with not VAT but most are hit not only with VAT but with a BPOST handling charge of EUR24 for customs clearance... a bit stiff.

It is actually more cost effective to combine your orders in order to avoid this fee.

On the positive side, books from Naval and Military Press are coming through untouched.

JP
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Wellington on June 04, 2021, 05:26:38 PM
This year I bought only from a company in NI and there were no problems. But for friends of mine ordering in UK its like a lottery. Sometimes the order passes under the radar, somtimes the final costs increase massive.

But the German online shops I order the Uk stuff from, have great problems to get the toys want.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on June 08, 2021, 07:40:14 PM
So far  all orders  have not been hit with customs charges they have been smallish 30- 40 €, for larger orders I’ve ordered from Germany , there are still a couple of VAT registered companies who have not adjusted there shopping carts so i won’t order from them not sure what July will bring
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 09, 2021, 05:16:04 AM
Iain, from Flags of War, has posted the following notice in his Facebook page:

«Hi All

I just wanted to give an update on the future situation with the EU (...)

As of Sunday 20th June, it is with huge regret I will need to stop taking orders from the EU until further notice. Currently, there is a lot of uncertainty on how we can handle the Tax Changes that come into play on 1st July 2021. I’m hoping that after a short period we will be in a better position to handle orders from the EU but currently, the solutions are way more complicated than I had first imagined. This something I do not wish to do as I have a lot of EU customers and I want to keep supporting your hobby needs.»

I do hope it is just temporary, as Flags of War is where I get most of my miniatures fix, lately. And if it affects other companies... Well, it is really odd that in time will be easier to order from the US, than from UK.  :'(
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 09, 2021, 08:13:46 AM
Argh, that's really not necessary.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on June 09, 2021, 09:12:54 AM
Not at all necessary  -the tax changes coming in July are completely optional...

Mike
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 09, 2021, 09:25:36 AM
Not at all necessary  -the tax changes coming in July are completely optional...

Mike

How will affect transactions, Mike? If I am to be honest, I have not a clue (as customer, not as seller!)


Update: Iain has explained to me his reasoning, but he is hopeful everything will be clearer once the new system is up and running for a few weeks, so he will be able to resume selling to the EU. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on June 09, 2021, 01:47:04 PM
How will affect transactions, Mike? If I am to be honest, I have not a clue (as customer, not as seller!)


Update: Iain has explained to me his reasoning, but he is hopeful everything will be clearer once the new system is up and running for a few weeks, so he will be able to resume selling to the EU. Fingers crossed!

If you don't use the new system it will work as it does now with a customer paying import VAT and a handling fee.  It looks too expensive and too complicated to make it worth my while to use it.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 17, 2021, 10:21:42 AM
I have been reading a bit more and it actually affects orders under 150 euros. Anything above that threshold will be deal just like now: VAT and handling fees charged at the customs (and the buyer being fleeced by the greedy hands of the State!). Under 150 euros value, VAT must be collected at the point of origin by the seller, who will transfer it to the greedy State mentioned above.

In other words: bye, bye easy commercial exchanges, welcome bureaucratic mistress!
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on June 17, 2021, 02:52:21 PM
I have been reading a bit more and it actually affects orders under 150 euros. Anything above that threshold will be deal just like now: VAT and handling fees charged at the customs (and the buyer being fleeced by the greedy hands of the State!). Under 150 euros value, VAT must be collected at the point of origin by the seller, who will transfer it to the greedy State mentioned above.

In other words: bye, bye easy commercial exchanges, welcome bureaucratic mistress!

The option of using the IOSS system for orders under 150€, on the other hand, will just put money into the hands of EU financial representatives that non-EU businesses will have to appoint to avoid having their customers pay tax and handling fees on import. So, into the hands of greedy mercenaries! Plus tax will still go to the state. :-)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 17, 2021, 05:19:27 PM
The option of using the IOSS system for orders under 150€, on the other hand, will just put money into the hands of EU financial representatives that non-EU businesses will have to appoint to avoid having their customers pay tax and handling fees on import. So, into the hands of greedy mercenaries! Plus tax will still go to the state. :-)

It is even worse than I imagined.  :'(

I wonder how public servants do not realize how much they are hurting businesses and customers with their pettiness and greed. It is like watching a disaster in slow motion.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: SiamTiger on June 17, 2021, 06:24:32 PM
Amusing how the UK leaving a shared market is now a trick by the EU to put money in the hands of their people...
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: OSHIROmodels on June 17, 2021, 06:44:47 PM
Let’s keep the politics out of it chaps and just have relevant info  :)
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on June 18, 2021, 11:32:11 AM
A small announcement that just came up on facebook, from Old-school miniatures.

"I hate to do this but after 1st of July we won’t be accepting orders from EU countries while we try and work out VAT rules. So if you are EU based the only way to get our stuff will be from our EBay store.
Stupid Brexit!"


So that's another company limiting sales to the EU for the time being.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on June 18, 2021, 01:11:51 PM
A small announcement that just came up on facebook, from Old-school miniatures.

"I hate to do this but after 1st of July we won’t be accepting orders from EU countries while we try and work out VAT rules. So if you are EU based the only way to get our stuff will be from our EBay store.
Stupid Brexit!"


So that's another company limiting sales to the EU for the time being.

As Mike and Andrew pointed out earlier with regard to Flags of War, such action is completely unnecessary. Any parcel regardless of size posted to the EU, from the UK or otherwise, will use the existing process for the customer's country's mail service, collecting VAT on import and charging a handling fee. I for one will continue posting orders to the EU as I have been since 1 January, with barcoded customs forms.

The EU's incoming IOSS system from 1 July, which allows a non-EU business to prepay VAT and avoid a charge on import for items under 150euros, is completely optional. As I flippantly pointed out above (accidentally risking encouraging political wrath), it is too expensive for small businesses to use because it currently requires them to appoint an EU fiscal representative to cover their VAT liability.

There are options of putting orders through the online marketplaces (eBay, Amazon, Etsy), which are supposed to collect the VAT for the customer's country, but again there are charges for doing so. Amazon appears to have completely sidestepped the new law so far by requiring UK sellers to arrange duty paid delivery to the EU rather than handling the duty itself (sellers cannot make additional charges; the price the buyer sees is what the buyer pays). Duty paid delivery is expensive because the courier charges the seller the VAT and handling fee, which obviously gets passed onto the customer through the selling price. If the vendor sells direct, rather than through a marketplace, and arranges duty paid delivery, my general observation is that they get unfairly pilloried by customers for high delivery charges (e.g. Warlord Games).

I have reservations about the legitimacy of using Etsy, which is supposed to be for handmade items. I know there are resin-printed models on there, but they're not by any stretch of the imagination handmade or craft items, and spin-cast metal items certainly aren't. I can foresee Etsy tightening up what can be sold through its site, especially if it is bearing the responsibility for collecting import VAT.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 18, 2021, 01:24:39 PM
'Handmade' on Etsy doesn't mean literally handmade.

Quote
Handmade items are items that are made and/or designed by you, the seller.

As I sculpt all my products, I designed them. That might not apply to all miniatures sellers.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on June 18, 2021, 02:26:23 PM
'Handmade' on Etsy doesn't mean literally handmade.

As I sculpt all my products, I designed them. That might not apply to all miniatures sellers.

Yes, but "Regardless, makers must be creating their items with their own hands (or tools)". Once you start machine producing them, potentially in quantity, that's mass production. Is a casting machine a tool? Does that fit in with Etsy? I'm just uneasy, and therefore I wouldn't want to rely on Etsy as a route to the EU for spin-cast miniatures.

I realise yours are somewhat quirkier figures than mine :-) and they probably sell in different quantities: individuals not armies.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 18, 2021, 03:02:17 PM
This is from the production partners section:

Quote
Examples of production services include, but are not limited to, printing, apparel printing, 3D-printing, casting, plating, engraving, cutting and sewing, and finishing.

Even if someone else was doing the casting, my items would still count as 'handmade' because I designed them. I would have to include the production partner details on my page. I'll likely add the print bureau and master-mould makers/master casters who did the work prior to production. Could be argued they don't count as a 'production partner' as they don't have anything to do with the actual production items, but better safe than sorry.

But going forward, anything new I make I'll have designed, printed, master moulded, master cast, production moulded and production cast myself, so I think I'm safe. :D
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on June 18, 2021, 03:15:00 PM
Honestly Etsy is full of people reselling junk, Or using pre bought moulds to make resin tat - A good selection of nicely cast miniatures would actually drag it back closer to what it was meant to be.

My main issue with etsy is from the seller side - the fees they charge and cuts they take are frankly ludicrous. I have no plans to stop selling to the EU, But even if i did I'd not use etsy.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 18, 2021, 03:43:07 PM
It’s very far from ideal, but it’s a means to an end only. The is no affordable alternative for what I want other than eBay, and I’d rather not. Blue park isn’t even going to integrate Taxamo, so that’s out too.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 30, 2021, 04:11:45 PM
So far I am aware of two manufacturers that have stopped selling to the EU, temporarily, due to the issues derived from using IOSS.
Do you know other manufacturers that will stop selling to the EU for the moment? And those who will continue selling normally?

We can make a guidelist, for the present.

At June 30th, that I am aware of.

Will stop selling, temporarily:

Flags of War
Footsore Miniatures (though you can write them and figure it something else)

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: black hat miniatures on June 30, 2021, 04:20:03 PM
I am continuing to sell without IOSS - just removing VAT for European orders as before and I imagine that most small manufacturers will continue as before until a simple easy to integrate IOSS solution appears that doesn't cost a fortune to use or implement.

Mike
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on June 30, 2021, 04:33:23 PM
I am continuing to sell without IOSS - just removing VAT for European orders as before and I imagine that most small manufacturers will continue as before until a simple easy to integrate IOSS solution appears that doesn't cost a fortune to use or implement.

Mike

Thanks Mike

I updated the post above.

Why is it so expensive implement IOSS? It should be very simple. ???
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 30, 2021, 04:46:06 PM
I'll be selling to EU customers (and Norway customers too) through Etsy from tomorrow. Pretty sure I mentioned that above... Etsy will collect EU VAT at checkout, and there won't be any handling fees from the postie before delivery.

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/StatuesqueMiniatures (https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/StatuesqueMiniatures)

The reason IOSS is so expensive is because the VAT cooperation agreement between the EU and UK isn't a sufficient scope to allow UK businesses to directly register with the IOSS - either that or it isn't completed yet.

Registration must be made through an EU-based 'Intermediary', who is liable for unpaid VAT. This is expensive, though there are some cheaper intermediaries appearing, who may or may not be reliable. This applies to businesses from all countries except Norway, who do have a VAT agreement of suitable scope.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on June 30, 2021, 05:30:42 PM
BTW, it might get rather time consuming listing businesses who will continue selling to the EU, as the answer will be 'most of them'.

It might be better to list those businesses who have implemented some solution to allow EU customers to pay VAT when they make the purchase, rather than pay VAT and a handling fee after a bill from the postal service.

There will be many ways businesses can do this*, not just IOSS registration, but the main thing will be avoiding the dreaded handling fees and paying all costs at once. This applies to all non-EU businesses, of course, not just UK ones.

*IOSS registration; DDP shipping; selling through a marketplace like Ebay or Etsy; integrating fancy things  into your checkout process... What matters is EU customers see and pay EU VAT at checkout and don't get hit with a handling fee.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on July 01, 2021, 04:36:24 AM
Good points too, Andrew.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Fighting15s on July 01, 2021, 06:38:42 AM
Just to give an idea of the costs of appointing an EU intermediary, the costs range from a low 1250€ a year to 4800€ a year. Royal Mail’s chosen intermediary for its IOSS solutions is Deloitte, which charges £2000 a year.

I can’t answer for every small miniatures manufacturer, but with EU sales nowadays of 100 orders a year (down from nearer 800 in my AB/Eureka years), the Deloitte route would add £20 per EU order, with typically higher VAT rates than the UK’s 20%, necessitating another price adjustment in the shop. There is still the issue of having a shopping cart that could charge VAT on orders under 150€ but not on orders over that value. In short, the cost of using an intermediary would, for customers in a number of EU countries, be far higher than simply paying VAT and a handling fee on import. The exceptions are the Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark, where customers would be slightly better off for only paying an extra £20 an order...

So for the present, for a number of suppliers, the cheapest and most cost effective route for sales to EU customers is for the customer to pay VAT and handling fees on import.

Andrew, however, may be able to provide some illumination as to the actual cost of using a marketplace such as Etsy. I still object in principle to small businesses being driven by VAT rules into the arms of large commercial concerns, i.e. marketplaces.

It’s not all potential gloom. Royal Mail is also offering an IOSS solution via Taxamo, which costs just £2 per parcel. However, the only e-commerce platform it integrates with is Magento. There is also a direct API integration. Details at https://www.taxamo.com/taxamo-assure-rmg (https://www.taxamo.com/taxamo-assure-rmg) If it eventually supports other major shopping carts as a simple plugin, then I can imagine it will be more immediately usable. Until then, I continue to sell to the EU as normal, deducting VAT and having customers pay VAT and handling fees to the mail service on import.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Zaheer on July 01, 2021, 07:33:17 AM
I'm still selling to the EU. Introducing flat-rate shipping (above large letter) to help offset VAT (at least in part). I'm not VAT registered so IOSS is more than I'm comfortable with at the moment.

Will have to see how it goes over the next few months, either looking to increase or decrease the shipping discount as required. As for my next Kickstarter, I am still working on that.

Needless to say I very much appreciate the patience and support of all of my European customers (from this island and the mainland) during this... trying time.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew Rae on July 01, 2021, 09:57:20 AM
Andrew, however, may be able to provide some illumination as to the actual cost of using a marketplace such as Etsy.

It's not cheap. But for EU sales, I see it as a choice between Etsy fees or no sales at all, given the buying patterns of my customers.

I really like Taxamo Assure as a solution - removes all the tax liability for sellers, just like selling on Ebay or Etsy. If only I could integrate the bloody thing... There are some cheap Intermediaries popping up. One is handing out IOSS numbers for a 20 euro monthly fee, plus 1 euro fee per order. Gonna leave that one for other guinea pigs. It doesn't fill me with confidence given the tax risks they're taking on. HMRC are still saying they'll open a UK IOSS portal for registration at some point (they should've launched the OSS portal for NI businesses today...), but it remains to be seen how that's going to work regarding Intermediaries.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on July 01, 2021, 04:33:55 PM
Thanks for the info, Ian. I didn't know how it worked, but now it makes sense that some manufacturers are uncomfortable with IOSS. I would be, in their place! I think that your solution is reasonable, at least for the moment.

Presently, I have two orders about to arrive, from Sarissa and Perry Miniatures (both ordered before 1st July, but thanks to Postal Services, they will arrive any time next week), so I will see how are handled by Correos, and how much extra they charge me. The Perry's order does not bother me, as their website already charges the purchases from the EU without VAT, therefore the only real extra cost will be the handling fees (which sucks, particularly given the fact that Correos is a semi-public business and it is financed via taxes!), but I do not know what will happen with Sarissa's...

Hope Taxamo will be easier to implement in the future and we can go back to business as usual.

Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on July 05, 2021, 11:52:57 AM
I just received a small order from the Perry brothers. No VAT charged.

What I do not get is why the EU and UK do things so complicated. Wouldn't be easier simply to charge your local VAT to customers and collect it locally and then exchange info and compensate the difference? Imagine that British nationals buy products in EU countries that would suppose 2.4 billion euros in VAT; EU customers buy products in the UK for a value of 2.3 billion euros in the same quarter; then UK makes a transfer of 0.1 billion to the EU, or vice versa, depending who collected more. Technically shouldn't be that difficult to implement.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Antonio J Carrasco on July 14, 2021, 11:12:00 AM
Another small order received from the UK, in this case from Sarissa, and again no VAT charges.

Up to this moment the only order that I received from the UK that has been hit by customs was a big KS order from Flags of War (200+ GBP). All other orders have passed under the radar.
Title: Re: Post-Brexit Shipping (EU<->UK): Lack of information from traders
Post by: Andrew66 on July 25, 2021, 12:06:43 AM
I’ve still not encountered  Vat charges on any purchases I’ve made which is good news , most orders have been under 70€